Well that's unfortunate because the reason I'm here is to try to extract a more well-explained position from you and the people who share your mindset. Half of you claim that your complaint is that mechanic-laden fights just aren't fun, but you struggle to actually explain or define what a fun fight is. You (general) claim that the problem is not the difficulty of the fight, but your only real complaint about the mechanics in the more difficult fights is that they are too hard (or that failure is too "punishing", thus motivating you to actually succeed rather than ignore the mechanic).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuwagami
What really blows my mind is the proposed solutions. Because all of them are either bad or would have unintended consequences that make things worse. For all the thought and passion that's gone into this, the people who don't like the current way Titan EX and Second Coil work can't seem to agree on what they would actually rather have.
If people can't handle Titan landslides now you really, really, REALLY don't want a random fight no matter how much you may think you do. The problem with a random fight is that you basically can't tune the difficulty, unless all of the "random" choices are essentially the same. So the fight is either so homogenized it's not fun or challenging except both at the perfect ilevel and ideal luck, or the same players who can neither memorize nor react to the current content will simply get blasted and be right back to complaining that it's too hard and not fun (because in the end fun = winning).
Unfortunately, not every fight can be Gilgamesh. Coil was clearly intended to be more hard than fun.
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06-17-2014, 10:56 AMMelithea
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06-17-2014, 10:59 AMGormogonI found myself surprised with what players find difficult ever since I started raiding in WoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spellbinder
3 types of funQuote:
Originally Posted by Melithea
1. true fun, enjoyable while it’s happening.
2 fun only in retrospect, hateful while it’s happening
3. not fun at all, not even in retrospect. As in, “What the hell was I thinking?" (Think VO2 Max or Anaerobic exercise) -
06-17-2014, 11:04 AMDanofocus target is something you learn very early in the game, and you can focus target Twin right at the start, they've fix the game so that the FT bar doesn't disappear when she disappears/divebombs. Seriously, if people can't dodge twisters then they are tunnel visioning too hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gormogon
thank you and agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melithea
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06-17-2014, 11:28 AMKuwagamiAgain that "black or white" thing... Randomizing attack order doesn't mean it's 100% RNG. If you have a pool of attacks in which the boss takes (let's say) 70% of them before repeating, and if you code it a way that hard hitting attacks have a counter (i.e, hard hitting blow for 80% of tank's health can't occur again before 4 other attacks, even if it's the ending attack of the previous rotation), you have a non-scripted fight where you can have hard hitting stuff as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archulak
Actually I suggested a way to do it right under that quote. I also said a few comments after that obviously it wouldn't work for everything (Titan being effectively the best example of that). Gilgamesh is at the other extreme side of the balance, with only one gimmick being here for the lulz rather than for any sort of difficulty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melithea
I obviously can't speak for all. That would be pretentious and preposterous. But what I would find more fun are hard fight without that many super punishing mechanics. overuse versus balance.
If T5 was able to keep its difficulty after mastering dives/twisters, it would probably become my favorite fight for one simple reason :
There is no overuse of mechanics. Punishing ones are twister and dives (but even dives aren't that punishing). Conflags too if your reactivity isn't that great. Yet the fight overall was difficult the first times, when the gear was barely enough to let you live through DS, or to kill DK without problems unless derp.
I will probably enjoy the brutal version of it if they release it. I know however that I don't like T6 at all due to the mechanic > mechanic > mechanic > mechanic > mechanic aspect of it.
Well, we can always agree on a disagreement, but what I find fun in hard fights is when I have to figure out how to play my job the right way to overcome difficulty. Not dealing with mechanics all the time and doing my job when these mechanics let me do something I actually decided on my own.
The latter was my feeling on Coil2 and that why I stopped it. It's also why I wasn't proud of beating Titan HM back in time, or Ex a few month ago, but just relieved. Relieved that the painful experience was finally over.
Edit :
That sentence made me sad while reading it again. Indeed, not every fight can be Gilgamesh (which is only here for the laugh). They should not be anyway. A few of them is fine to give a smile when we do them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melithea
However, every fight should aim to be fun, even if insanely hard. Else you just don't want to do them, and the purpose of creating it is lost.
I can't remember someone serious asking something like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ooshima
=> easy mode with no reward for the sake of the lore was asked
=> no overuse of team rope-jumping was asked
There were also personal attacks, trolling attempts, stuff like that happen every now and then. But this thread isn't about "give ez mode with same reward" -
06-17-2014, 11:44 AMOoshima
Hate to say this but I have no idea what some of the people are trying to bring forward.
I don't really see how "Focus Target" is really so hard. Drag the Focus Target UI to the middle of the screen or on level, or which ever you are comfortable with. Personally my Focus Target and Target bar, including my whole weaponskill bars are all centered/eye-leveled in a way or another to keep tract of casts and buffs/debuffs/procs.
If you can't really handle all these simple things then Coil isn't something for you. I'm not even trying to be elitist here for it is a fact that there are always people who are extremely slow at learning.
However all of us here have to realize that this is NOT your KOEI Dynasty Warriors type of game where you can have the option of starting the game in Easy Mode and simple hack through 1 star to 5 star rating battles even though you are the slowest learner or worst gamer around. Don't get me wrong, I've played every installment of DW and it's pretty fun to me. But no, FFXIV isn't your DW. You don't have an Easy Mode to cheese down the supposedly 5 star rating battle to something that looks like 2 star on "Normal Mode". Right here, Extreme mode means something and Coil means business. If you can't handle it then it isn't for you. If you don't find it fun, you should really look for other games that fits your bill. No point wasting your time trying to change a base design philosophy set for this game nor your money on this game. You are certainly better off with another game that makes you happy (why do you want to pay for a game and make yourself angry?).
There is nothing such as enable easy mode but having the same rewards. Even for a game like Dynasty Warriors the best tier weapon drops from Chaos Mode. If you selected Easy Mode it drops shit weapons. There was a suggestion around for an easy mode coil with no loot rewards or maybe just Allagan Tomestones which by all means I would welcome it if SE decides to do it. Probably for the sake everyone able to follow the story and lore which to me is a good thing that SE should probably consider. The only bad thing about now is that casuals who can't clear coil are gated behind the story and lore (although they can watch from youtube but that's totally not the point, the feeling is different when you experience it in-game) which I think an easy mode coil with no top tier loots should alleviate this.
But if you are the kind of person who wants the best thing but without working hard for it then FFXIV isn't the place. I'm not even sure if there exist a game that has an easy mode but gives the best items. -
06-17-2014, 11:45 AMRorisQuote:
Originally Posted by Melithea
Winning is fun yeah, but that second quote is precisely the issue the OP talks about, it's just plain not fun getting those wins. Some people do get all their enjoyment from knowing they're above everyone else and have progressed beyond them so props to them I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melithea
Personally seeing all the cutscenes up to T9 even after having Youtube'd them was great, just getting there every week is so unfun and not enjoyable, and I really get zero kicks from knowing some people can't get there or are still stuck in T5 so it's just a drudge, when it could all just be better executed to you know, have fun in a videogame instead of turning into an unfun chore. -
06-17-2014, 12:11 PMArchulakThis post is just opinions and everyone's is different. In my opinion coil is super fun to do every week, I wish that I could have even more to run through but that's pretty unrealistic from a dev standpoint. Brutal will also be super fun when it comes out. I also get no enjoyment out of lording over people like I'm better than them or something I just enjoy having tons of fun joking around and figuring out new things that people haven't thought of before and experiencing things that are challenging, and even when it's on farm I still find it fun to push the limits on what I can do. I do agree that there could be a bit more RNG with atk order and that would be cool, but in my opinion the only dangerous mechanics in games are one shots, everything else is a joke so I don't agree that it's lazy design it's more like a necessity to add any real sense of danger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roris
And I can't remember if it was in this thread or the ex coil one but for all the people that say "1 death = wipe that's, how tight it's tuned" here's proof to the contrary.
Near the end the solo tank dies and they still clear. -
06-17-2014, 12:44 PMDanoQuote:
Originally Posted by Roris
I personally can't wait to do coil on tuesdays because i find it fun to get loot and practice on turn 9. -
06-17-2014, 12:52 PMOoshimaThe thing is that there is a lot of underlying meaning. I have been following these discussions and the underlying complaint is that soldiery is i100 and not top tier like HA unless you have sands and oil, which is again gated in Coil2. And people having difficulty clearing Coil2 and thus the surge in complaints compared to Coil1, because you can simply dressed in i90 myth gear without stepping into Coil1. I don't even recall this much and level of complaint in Coil1 because fundamentally myth gear = coil gear in ilvl.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuwagami
The word fun is again fundamentally subjective. Everyone's definition of fun is different, SE can't definitely satisfy on that. But of course if you can clear it it is somewhat fun, and if you can't clear it at all I'm sure most people will say it is not fun or even rage quit. Human nature.
Perhaps instead of purely complaining about how not fun the fight is, propose something in detail?
In many pages before people were bringing up of extremely random fights but I share the same view as Yoshida - if given the existing scripted fights and people can't handle it, don't expect the same people to be able to handle random attacks.
Other than that, I haven't been seeing any major proposals either. -
06-17-2014, 01:22 PMXine
Apparently nobody has ever played around with the RPGMaker series. Instead of being completely randomized, skills mobs/bosses use can be given a percent chance of them being used, and if programmed like they do in FFXI/XIV and other games, add new skills after certain a HP%. Its randomized to a point but not entirely random and definitely not completely scripted. Personally I have fun with random fights like that, having to memorize fights is a pain in the ass and my memory doesn't work that well.But given how the game has "move out of this giant orange circle or die" mechanic, its a little boring. Reacting works just fine for me a majority of the time (assuming my connection doesn't decide to lag like it has since 2.28 dropped) and I can move out of anything just fine knowing ahead of time where my "safe areas" are (think stacking on Titan HM/EX to have more room open for dodging WotL.)
However all that aside, the OP states that he, as someone who consistently clears SCoB, finds the idea of "team jump roping" boring. Which if anyone hasn't figured out by now, is where this thread should be, not talking about "make the game easy mode". There's a massive difference between hard fun and easy fun, just as there is hard boring and easy boring. If something is easy, yea its fun to some people, but that same easy thing, is boring to other people. It should be mentioned there is no possible way to EVER satisfy everyone and there will ALWAYS be someone who has a complaint. This is a fact of life. The only other option is to satisfy the majority since the majority is what keeps these MMORPGs alive for more than a few months or even a couple of years.
Back when a majority of WoW and FFXI players were on their own games so-to-speak, there were people who enjoyed FFXI for what it was, a long grindfest that offered random challenges and rewards for time spent, while at the same time had enough content that casual and mainstream players could enjoy while the "hardcores" went out and did every single bit of content there was in the game. I never played WoW, but the mass majority of WoW players who started playing FFXI complained about EVERYTHING that FFXI was. The difference from what I've heard from a majority of people who played WoW and went to FFXI said "WoW is boring, everything is too easy and people do nothing but attack each other" (be it physically attacking in game or verbally.) Ever since Abyssea came out FFXI started heading in that direction, easy mode. FFXIV started out as a severely punishing and about as much of a grindfest as FFXI was pre-ToAU. Once FFXIV went into 2.0/ARR, it went easy mode.
One thing people do need to keep in mind is that FFXIV: ARR is a new game, it had to be rebuilt from the ground up, old irrelevant content/items/equipment was trashed and simplified. Severely punishing mechanics and content was eased (See Garuda Hard Mode in 1.0 vs 2.0). Graphics, equipment, UI, terrain, everything about the game was completely changed and worked in to the new graphics engine and the terribad lagfest that was 1.0 was fixed into 2.0. No, there's not a massive amount of content in the game right now unless you want to play all 9 jobs and gear them up to i110 with their Relic Weapon Novus and High Allagan Weapons (why you'd want both is beyond me, but some people are completionists.) However just doing that for one job is almost impossible at this point in the game due to the limitation of only being able to enter SCoB and clear each turn once a week. Given that, you DO have the option to do other things in the game, it's just that repeating the same old content we do have gets boring, therefore people stop playing and some ultimately quit altogether.
If anyone really expects a game to "get better" overnight, or even a single player to "get better" overnight, then you're all in for a world of disappointment. That shit don't work. Want a lot of content for the game? Give it a few years to accumulate new content. Practice makes perfect, but time makes a masterpiece. The current content gets boring after you clear it every single day/week. Personally I'm getting sick of the same 3 dungeons in Duty Roulette Low Level. I wish they'd eventually add in a few new dungeons for leveling so people aren't spamming the same exact dungeons all the time to exp and level up. Anyone remember XI? Sure there was the "usual camps" people went to for leveling, but there was about 3-5 or more different camps people could use to get their exp. But as I just stated, I don't expect it to come overnight or even in the next patch, maybe the first expansion at the earliest.
But back on topic, this thread was created with the intentions of discussing how to make content more enjoyable and hopefully getting rid of the "team jump roping" in the future. Since we don't know how the devs plan on easing T5 and some of the other "hard" content currently in the game with the 2.3 and 2.4 patches and beyond, there's really no point in saying making it a bit more randomized in the future could make it more enjoyable and easier or far harder and more boring than it is already. Although in my own opinion, watching people fly across Bahamut's hand to divebombs is probably the funniest thing about that fight, but it does suck when they hit the wall and insta-die. But as much as I hate to repeat myself and the OP, casuals are the majority of the game's population, the more of them that quit, the longer it'll take to get more, better quality content. If enough of those casuals and mainstream players quit because they can't do what they want to, or they stop having fun, this game will eventually die and there will be no more game for you to play. If you're too stupid/blind/ignorant/retarded to understand that, there is no hope for you. I'm sorry. And this just in, FFXI content was somewhat randomized like I mentioned earlier where certain skills had a higher percent chance of being used than others and casuals still managed to faceroll the content with "power in numbers" and there was other harder content that was similar that only the "no-lifers" could take down (See Pandemonium Warden and Absolute Virtue pre-Abyssea.)
Edit: On the topic of relying on randomness to complete things in this game, 3* crafting can be considered RNG (Random), gathering for HQs is also RNG. You want your Heavy Wolfram Cuirass HQ'd? You need to rely on RNG even with all HQ materials (Hasty Touch method or hope for an HQ with the "safe" method.) The game's percentages are a percent chance that something will or will not happen. Such is the nature of percentages in this case. So lets say you give Titan say a 5% chance of using Mountain Buster (aka Table Flip), there is a 5% chance he will use it at any given time in the fight. However in the event Yoshi explains as his reason for going against this idea, he has a diminishing chance of using Mountain Buster back to back, and the percent diminishing with each use. You want to stray away from Randomness so the majority can clear content? Look again at Crafting HQs. Granted this can be argued that it's supposed to be hard and not everyone can do it. Well.....T5 is meant to be hard and not everyone can do it regardless if its randomized or if its made a completely scripted fight as we have (note however I am simply using it as a reference and nothing more, any fight can be used in its place here and I mean ANY.) If we seriously want to argue the difference between a fight being random is too hard for people to adapt and react to, HQ Crafting and Gathering should also be looked at. Yes, the 3 options available in the game (Crafting, Gathering and Battle) are different, but that's beside the point, the point here is randomness and reliance on the RNG, why its used for HQ Crafting and Gathering and why its NOT used for Battle mechanics. Personally I don't have an issue with how Crafting and Gathering is done, I believe its perfect the way it is save for not being able to craft/gather anything of any great importance save sub-par gear. Just thought this should have been mentioned since Randomizing fights and how its "too hard for casuals" was also mentioned as a way to "attack" how it could make fights more fun and entertaining or thrilling than simply executing your DDR skills. -
06-17-2014, 02:45 PMMelitheaThe obvious answer would be the fact that crafting is an extremely simple system with an incredibly low ceiling. Without RNG it would be "push button, receive HQ item". The fact that the systems are different isn't beside the point at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xine
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06-17-2014, 03:16 PMAnyssaWoosh!Quote:
Originally Posted by Melithea
Xine, I like the idea of some RNG during a battle - but I'd hate to envision an encounter where double mountain busters come in somewhat rapid succession while there are adds on the ground, bombs, and then a geocrush at the end. (edit)
Titan Ex might be "fun", but for me, the fun doesn't even begin until after the Heart Phase when the egis show up.
Maybe if some of these battles had checkpoints within them...for example - once the group has destroyed the Heart, then it doesn't need to begin from the beginning. Perhaps, after a wipe, the group picks up immediately from the shattered heart phase.
I'd also like to add the discussion, the sheer amount of time spent on waiting for groups to even attempt some of this stuff. All those hours spent doing secondary and tertiary objectives in the game are wasted when I think about it. -
06-17-2014, 04:50 PMYukiko^Quote:
Originally Posted by Xine
And here i do not agree with you!
As long as the Fight and special the Boss Abilities are just Boss centered it will not satisfy ALL because the Boss does not react on the Situation, but solely on his own appearance!Quote:
Originally Posted by Xine
You have do ajust Boss Combat style and Attacks depending on the PLAYER Status too!
If you choose not to fight the Boss with a tank or a Heal, the Boss should react to that, so the player have the freedome to choose and is not forced to do "the path of the designer".
If all 8 players have iLvL200 the Boss should react different as when all 8 players just have iLvL55 - if you dont add those in the BOSS mechanics you will never satisfy ALL...
The thing with iLvL was just an easy Example, sure you can cheat it with downgrading but everyone understands this example without going dseeper into RPGMaker programming. -
06-17-2014, 06:12 PMIriadysaYou clearly have no idea how this game handles network data. Here, I'm going to try to educate you, even though I'm sure you'll just come with a victimist rhetoric instead of actually going out and trying it yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gormogon
Your client will try to hide lag from you as much as possible. What the client does is accept your input as if everything was working correctly without actually waiting for the server to reply and acknowledge all of your moves. It will literally act as if everything was going ok.
You can cast and finish spells, then start new spells, without the client even waiting for confirmation of the effect of those spells. The client simply tries to give you an experience as smooth as possible in an attempt to mask latency fluctuations. This is really easy to try for yourself.
However, that the client makes you believe something doesn't mean it's actually happening. Sure, you finished casting that spell and were able to start another but it's very possible the packets for that action were lost or arrived late so the effect of your action may not even show at all.
With movement the problem is exactly the same. While the client will lie to you so that your experience is smoothed out there's a point where the lie is exposed if your connection keeps on acting like a POS instead of just having a hickup. The lie is revealed when the server sends your client information that does not match what your client predicted should've been. In other words, your latency didn't allow you to send the information to the server in time and the server replied "you've been hit". The reason you keep seeing people complain "but I was outside mommy, I shouldn't get hit!" is simply because of what I've already explained: the client lies to you in order to try to smooth the experience and mask latency fluctuations.
And it works. As long as your connection isn't a constant 400ms POS.
Just go out there and cap your upload speed then try to play. You'll see everything I've described and more.
Stop being ignorant if you are seriously going to try to discuss this.
What on earth are you babbling about? Do you even understand what focus target is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gormogon
Look, I've done this as a SCH I assure you I never target Twintania at all. I only target the adds if for some reason a DD derped, to help kill them. Focus target is absolutely a perfect indicator of when she's casting Twisters. This doesn't even make sense, I'm seriously thinking you have never even tried twintania! I've done this as DPS (as MNK, specifically) and I can assure you that Focus Target works perfectly. I don't need to guess at all. As soon as I see the cast bar, I know it's time to maybe think that I should be moving (yes, you actually have a huge window to start moving!)
How can you even dare to criticize game design when you don't even know how it works?
I find it funny you think I'm being an elitist. I have most likely helped more random strangers to learn and beat Titan Extreme and TT than you have, considering it's pretty obvious you can't get past the mechanics correctly.
I'm not an elitist, you are just a really bad player with a very big nack for complaining.
And if the "casuals" in this thread get exactly what they want (i.e. the OP), the game would already be dead for some of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xine
Do you understand?
This game has many problems that should be solved. The OP shows none of the right ones.
Edit: I skipped a page by accident! I see you got educated about Focus Target now, while you tried to dodge the bullet and save face as much as possible. I loved it, when you were shown you could see the cast bar using focus target you switched to "in the middle of the fight" and then when you were shown you could do it at the start you said:
This is gold. And you call me an elitist when you are clearly diminishing your fellow players, complaining that you are too good to be partying with other players that are not at your level and that's why you keep failing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gormogon
You probably missed it so I'm gonna say it again: all of my Twintania kills are with PUGs. Every. Single. One. Of. Them. I even have a SCH book from TT!
And in fact, all of my Titan Ex kills have been with half pugs too, because I don't run in a static.
And really, trying to pass "focus target now please" at the start of a fight as something hard to do for a PUG... Yeah, who's the elitist here, I wonder. -
06-17-2014, 06:17 PMToffeeCoffeeI'll assume you're in a static, am I right? Coil is fun for those who are in a static party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dano
My static fell apart 2 weeks ago after 3 members quit the game but I was lucky enough to get some nice loot (just fail RNG on the sand).
Now I have to PUG SCoB, last week was just horrible dealing with ragers (people pointing fingers and playing the blame game, but when they themselves died they were quick to type "lol" and "lag").
I am officially boycotting SCoB until I'm in a static again, not that anyone cares. Days pass and I now ignore PUG groups looking for pro Renaud kiting SMN's because I'm just over it.
SE please make SCoB more accessible so that people can get it done on their own time, not forced to rush it on Tuesday or Wednesday when all the competent PUG groups go through, please get rid of the stupid lockout.
It's the same static parties who have T6-9 on farm for their subclasses and alts so I'm not sure what the point of the lockout is. It just ostricises the majority of your playerbase from participating in this content.
The flipside to not doing SCoB is T5 and Levi (and that carebear Novus grind) and that's just not cool. -
06-17-2014, 06:57 PMIriadysaI really believe the major problem with SCoB is, indeed, the lock outs. This alone is what causes the "static only" mentality, which makes the SCoB such exclusive content.Quote:
Originally Posted by ToffeeCoffee
Obviously the intention is to make content last longer by stretching the amount of loot you can get in a single week and while I hate this idea, I suppose it's understandable that it's either this or really low drop rates. Seems unrealistic to expect them to be able to pump enough content for player consumption. The alternative would be to follow CT's model and give one drop per week instead of one clear per week, but I'm not even sure if this would actually help move people away from the "static only" mentality.
I'm honestly not sure what the solution to this is. Not the OP though, that's for sure. -
06-17-2014, 07:18 PMToffeeCoffeeI think lower drop rates (chance for nothing to drop) with dungeon cool-down is a much better option than the weekly single clear lockout. Players get to learn, experience and enjoy the content and aren't able to gear out so quickly. Addresses two issues there and then. Only people who might not like that are the easy clear hardcore farmers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iriadysa
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06-17-2014, 07:29 PMGormogonAlso add that you only get 1 hr to do all of it if not you're locked out for the week.Quote:
Originally Posted by ToffeeCoffee
To bad there's no hardcore option of, if you die you character dies forever. -
06-17-2014, 07:34 PMYukikoWelcome back to FFXIV 1.x, no thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by ToffeeCoffee
No Drop is bad Gamedesign.
Lets add this and we will see all those so called Hardcores whine about "Content is too hard" :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gormogon
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06-17-2014, 07:38 PMExstal
I think the intention is cutting edge content isn't supposed to be faceroll easy. Which sadly means people who aren't exceptional players, will never win it.
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06-17-2014, 07:40 PMIriadysaIf cooldowns were to be implemented, you'd have to add them upon completion of the encounter, otherwise a number of undesirable problems arise which are heavily documented on any other MMO that uses them.Quote:
Originally Posted by ToffeeCoffee
While lower drop rates would help with participation rates as well as keeping the content "current" for a certain amount of time, my experience tells me that it leads to frustration and it's not really going to create a happier player base than what we have now.
I wish I could propose a solution, but I don' t have one. I feel CT's model is less frustrating, but I don't really have any evidence that it would break with the "static only" requirements of SCoB. -
06-17-2014, 07:40 PMGormogonThey could already start doing it. Every time they die they have to delete their character and start fresh. Guess it is too hardcore that they wont do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukiko
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06-17-2014, 07:43 PMRosy....and so players who aren't as "exceptional" as yourself will up and leave and all the exceptionals will find that there will be no more game ;) Unlike years ago when there was little choice in the way of mmorpgs and devs could afford to not pump out so much content, and people stuck with a game for years...these days there are many more games out there, with 3 or 4 major titles arriving each year. More choice = people spread out over games, therefore developers have to listen to their bread and butter players...the not "exceptional" ones to keep enough subs coming in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exstal
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06-17-2014, 08:13 PMAtreides
What makes people think that everyone should be able to clear the whole content in order for a game to be good?
Once new raids are out they will nerf the older ones for the lesser skilled to clear, you don't need top tier raid gear if you're not interested in hard content anyway.
There was a suggestion to make a SCoB easy mode imo that would be fine if it's just for the story and doesn't really provide any gear but even then some people won't be happy because they also want to be rewarded with the best available gear with the least efford put into it. -
06-17-2014, 08:47 PMYukikoAnd why do you care if they get best gear?Quote:
Originally Posted by Atreides
Do you make challenging content because the challenge or because you can show something to others with the intention "I am better than you"?
I am not saying its a good idea, i just point to that arrogance!
Gear should help to progress if you are not so skilled and not used as a reward for clearing something hard to clear... -
06-17-2014, 09:08 PMExstalI said "cutting edge". There is no reason that one needs to beat everything in the same patch it comes out. See how Binding Coil turns 1 and 2 were accessible by a decent amount of people in 2.1 with turns 4 and 5 mostly being reserved to statics? See how now it's farming those turns when a new Coil is out? That's how it should be. The ones who strive to be the best will complete the content as intended, and those who either don't want to or can't put in the time, won't. They'll just wait until it becomes more accessible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosy
It's an MMO. The point of challenging content is to be challenging. It's not for story, that's what single player games are for. I know I wouldn't do normal Coil if a theorectical easy Coil gave the same gear. Extra effort for same reward is a waste of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukiko
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06-17-2014, 09:10 PMAtreidesIn no way I'm interested in bragging, it's just human nature to take the route with the least resistence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukiko
So if the rewards would be equal, then most people even those that already have coil on farm would just take that route to be done with.
In my eyes it's bad game design to reward players with lesser skill content with the highest tier of gear, they don't need it unless they actually wanna brag with awesome gears?
The new coils will get nerfed anyway after the next tier is released. So they can clear it then, I see no reason for making it easier & rewarding when the content is actually still fresh. -
06-17-2014, 09:17 PMDashuto
I'm at the point where I do everything in Garuda EX flawless. Both as a DPS or Tank, and I go as both. I literally cannot find 7 other people capable of doing it, not in PF or DF. I have to just keep trying until I manage to get into a team of others who can handle it.
This kind of crap is getting old. -
06-17-2014, 09:24 PMYukikoThen I am not human, nor are my friends...Quote:
Originally Posted by Atreides
You and Exstal both are a good example of what i ment with "I have something you dont have..."
Everyone is working for a goal... So yes indeed if your goal is just equip then indeed you will go the less difficuld route to gain it... so what?
Again: Why do YOU care if others do so? Is gear the only reason you play? Sad... -
06-17-2014, 09:37 PMAtreidesI give that right back at you, you happen to be a prime example of someone that actually wants to be rewarded with the least efford but saying otherwise to make you look like a better person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukiko
See what I did there? I just generalized you without even knowing you, thats the same you just did.
Careful with pointing your fingers at others, we just have different opinions and possibly never agree with eachother.
Gear IS a big factor to take on challenging content, yes I'm also interested in the Brutal coils even though the drops are the same but I see no reason to do that more than once.
Most people raid because it's fun but it would be pointless without the reward because everyone is looking forward for better gear after progressing so much.
Also gear is not the only reason that keeps me interested, I have a great FC and made many friends in this game I do enjoy the lesser content aswell and wouldn't want to miss any of that. -
06-17-2014, 09:53 PMKuwagamiWith that in mind, please explain me why Coil has a story behind it ? If it's not for the story, but only to be challenging, it should have no story behind it by taking your own words.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exstal
Or not be challenging at all. -
06-17-2014, 09:56 PMNeroBecause it is a Final Fantasy. Content, being it main or side, always has a Story behind it in a Final Fantasy. Coil is not needed for the Mainstory tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuwagami
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06-17-2014, 10:00 PMExstalSide quests have some kind of reason to why you are there, no? That's why the hardest bosses aren't in the main story. It's so you can get most of the picture without being stuck on something unable to see the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuwagami
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06-17-2014, 10:20 PMKuwagamiit was a rhetorical question...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero
see above. I'd like to add that while not needed to follow the main storyline, Coil's lore is absolutely needed if you want to understand deeper the world you're wandering in. It adds a lot of important stuff to understand Bahamut and Carteneau's battle. It's just sad that people are gated away from that contentQuote:
Originally Posted by Exstal
(but yeah, ez mode of Coil have already been proposed just for the story, and got trashed away because "why u want mah gear ?". While it was never asked that "story" coil should have any loot) -
06-17-2014, 10:39 PMAtreidesWith that I agree, everyone should be able to see the story. This is what a FF game is about and it gets pretty interesting too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuwagami
Even though it's a side quest imo it has alot to do with the actual story because it explains alot about the whole Bahamut incident and what happened durring the 5 years gap. -
06-17-2014, 11:07 PMYukikoNot really...Quote:
Originally Posted by Atreides
Dont like to spoiler but it opens more questions than giving answers!
At least T9 is worth the effort, but still before we get answers something happens :) -
06-17-2014, 11:14 PMRosyNot sure you've been reading....we're not talking "cutting edge"...we're talking the "game" ...MANY, yup many people are still stuck at T5...there's not a lot of farming going on in the GENERAL populace. But there's one helluva lot of headbanging going on in an effort to find even 8 vaguely competent people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exstal
Personally, I loved this game, but even with my infinite patience, 100s of wipes (literally) on Titan EX and T5, my patience wears thin and I'm looking at two new amazing games coming out in the not too far distance.
You see...what we're left with at the moment is running the same dungeons over and over for absolutely nothing except myth. Fates...oh please not fates, they were totally ruined by the forced Atma fiasco, and...crafting (if you're into that).We can't "farm" for High Allagan gear, we can't farm for Levi weapons, (we can't even see the freaking content beyond Titan) we can't do the weekly Rowena token runs, so us "non-exceptional" people, you know, we who pay the majority of subs and therefore keep this game healthy....have absolutely nothing "fun", or productive to do UNLESS WE JOIN A STATIC.
I've made a static this week, it's going to be a long haul as most of the people can only make twice a week and the majority of them are brand new to T5, which means I've put myself back to the beginning, just to be able to progress beyond the dreadknights, because there's no other way of doing it. Which leads back to the OP...there shouldn't be this reliance on getting a "static", we should be able to do stuff that is a challenge, enjoyable and fun with our guildies as in ALL OTHER MMOS so far. -
06-17-2014, 11:30 PMAtreidesTrue but I still have my hopes up that all of our questions will be answered once we finished coil for good. xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Yukiko
I guess they just like to build up the tension. -
06-17-2014, 11:39 PMOSUBuckeye4^^thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Rosy
I'll add this....
Look, there is a place for ultra-hard content in MMORPG's that requires statics and hours upon hours of failing to complete. That content should be stand-alone (or "brick wall") in nature though.
The upcoming "brutal" mode stuff is the route that SE should be taking with this type of content. Put it out there and offer non-game breaking rewards (like a coin that you can exchange for titles or mounts or fancy minions or housing decorations) for completing it.
Don't put a bunch of storyline and lore behind that fight, because 95+% of your playerbase will never see it, and a sizeable portion of them will get frustrated and end up leaving.
There are few things that upset people more than knowing that there is something behind that locked door they are trying to open.
That's the real problem with a lot of this content.
When you beat Twintania, there is storyline and progession that leads to more storyline behind it. When you beat Titan EX, there is progression to additional content that has been released that offers additional rewards for completion.
THAT is what drives people insane. All this stuff exists that they are not able to gain access too and experience.
And if you're doing to take that route, don't make the battles so scripted. There is nothing more boring than following a script to beat a fight. It's not a real test of skill, it's just memorization.
It's like running a firearms course where you know exactly where the targets are going to pop up. Sure, you need to know how to point, aim, shoot and reload your weapon... but, you're not really getting a test of your practical skill with the firearm if you know exactly where the next target is going to pop up EVERY time. After the 99th run where you hit every target and your partner screws up on the 3rd target, you will just say, "eff this, I'm out" and hand over your badge.
There should absoultely be a "normal" or "easy" mode for Coil and the EX primals. Nerf the rewards, but allow people who can't find statics to at least progress onto the other new content that was released.
TLDR version...
SE has two ways to go about things:
1) Make end-game content stand-alone and not in any way related to lore or progression (like they are going to do with the Brutal modes)
2) Offer a storyline or easy mode to get through existing end-game content that is acting as a gate to other content, but nerf the rewards and achievements if people choose to use it. I guess SE tried this with the echo buff, but that is worthless on fights like Titan EX that have insta-kill mechanics.
Don't put up brick walls and have all of your additional content hide behind those walls. That causes people to leave. Like I said earlier, nothing upsets someone more than knowing that there is something they want behind a locked door that they can't open.
No one is going to legitimately complain about not getting a title or a vanity housing item... people are going to legitimately complain about not being able to acess a bunch of additional fights and storyline that reveal lore. -
06-18-2014, 12:00 AMExstal
For the current Coil, I think they should do it this way
Second Coil (story version)
Turn 1) Remove Blighted Bouquet, remove adds
Turn 2) Remove petrification buff, makes renaults killable and their auto attack hit for ~1000
Turn 3) turn off towers
Turn 4) Remove everything except Heaven's Fall
It basically has to be children mode Coil so people can get the side quest completion or something. Obviously, it doesn't drop any loot.