How to easily have healers dps engaged ( yet another thread)

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Originally Posted by Videra

And moreover, what do you specifically want?

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I'm definitely not a healer main, but if healing is not going to be made more complex, then I want more complex DPS rotations on healer more similar to HW style. And PERSONALLY, I loved Cleric Stance stance dancing, but seeing as I'm not a healer main, I will not force healer mains who know the consequences of it more to suffer it for my casual pick up and play sometimes wishes.

I don’t want WHM to hold the baby rattle because though my individual care for the WHM class is about as high as CRP square has shown they can’t be trusted to make an “easy job” within a role because when that job inevitably ends up kinda garbage “cough” toilet paper lilys “cough” they will just nerf the entire role to correct the problem, WHM is even more egregious because no matter your opinion of it in high end content it is 100% the slyphie healer of popular with non raiders, if the one popular healer is bad because it’s too simple the entire role is gonna get nuked from orbit, which is exactly what happened in ShB

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I don’t want WHM to hold the baby rattle because though my individual care for the WHM class is about as high as CRP square has shown they can’t be trusted to make an “easy job” within a role because when that job inevitably ends up kinda garbage “cough” toilet palate lilys “cough” they will just nerf the entire role to correct the problem, WHM is even more egregious because no matter your opinion of it in high end content it is 100% the slyphie healer of popular with non raiders, if the one popular healer is bad because it’s too simple the entire role is gonna get nuked from orbit, which is exactly what happened in ShB

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The problem is that Sylphie healers wouldn't even be affected by the change because even right now, they don't utilize the tools they have effectively and instead throw around fluff casts all the time for the sake of roleplaying as the cute bunnyboys tanks healer waifu and the true heart of the group, while everyone else behind the pc is annoyed and resents this guy silently for slowing the entire run. Sylphie healers will only ever get effected if SE ever states that yeah, healers should dps when there is nothing to heal and you can report these people for griefing for afking or deliberately overhealing. Which naturally wille ver happen. So SE isn't even pandering towards these people prefered playstyle, but their self-perception really. Its especially annoying because it basically holds the most iconic healer job in the game hostage. I mean, if Healers would ever be more involved in terms of dpsing or healing and on an equal footing with each other, I certainly would chose the white mage for aesthetic reasons.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I am a bit curious, though. Why is WHM your preferred healer? Aesthetics?

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And, as I noted above, WHM has a (slightly higher, but still) similar APM to BLM. In effect, WHM right now is arguably the Healer version of what BLM is to DPS - and what WAR is to Tanks.

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For me, it's not about actions per minute or a rotation per se. From another thread:

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

The inspiration from BLM that I had in mind was the Umbral Ice/Astral Fire mechanic.

You can be an Ice mage. It's safe. It's cozy. But even at a casual level, a simple reading of your tool tips strongly suggests that this is not how you should be playing. The real game is, "How much Fire can I greed?" You can play it on easy mode (go back to Ice while you still have thousands of MP). You can play it on hard mode (drain every last bit of MP and hope you timed it right so that you have a free Ice cast). Either way, it's a risk/reward game with a goal that you can aspire towards.

It doesn't copy to a healer exactly as-is, but I think the spirit could.

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The spirit being an interplay between two facets of your kit that creates a risk/reward system and a goal to aim for. For BLM, it's ice vs. fire. For WHM (and healers in general), it's healing vs. damage.

You can be a heal-bot. It's safe. It's cozy. But something in the kit should nudge you towards the idea that, at least for some moments, the best thing you can do to help end combat sooner rather than later is to deal damage yourself.

Not knowing anything about MMOs, I started on CNJ/WHM because my preferred combat style is to win the war of attrition: I'll accept dealing damage more slowly if it means being able to keep the party alive longer/indefinitely. The problem is that in reality, the players themselves start building up stacks of debuffs such as "fatigue" and "impatience." Combined with mostly-scripted damage, what you get is a combat system where healers need to deal damage.

As for why WHM… aesthetics, mainly. Ironically, it is also, in my opinion, the only healer that currently has a damage dealing identity: Holy. Unfortunately, it applies only to trash mobs, but still, it's a subject of memes.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I don’t want WHM to hold the baby rattle because though my individual care for the WHM class is about as high as CRP square has shown they can’t be trusted to make an “easy job” within a role because when that job inevitably ends up kinda garbage “cough” toilet paper lilys “cough” they will just nerf the entire role to correct the problem, WHM is even more egregious because no matter your opinion of it in high end content it is 100% the slyphie healer of popular with non raiders, if the one popular healer is bad because it’s too simple the entire role is gonna get nuked from orbit, which is exactly what happened in ShB

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Square just can't be trusted to design healers.

It's pretty obvious by now that they don't care about the issues the role is facing because they only ever care about balance issues facing tanks or melee dps. If there's ever gonna be any meaningful change at this point it's going to take a LOT more backlash than when ShB dropped and pretty much every healer main complained about how braindead everything is now.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Square just can't be trusted to design healers.

It's pretty obvious by now that they don't care about the issues the role is facing because they only ever care about balance issues facing tanks or melee dps. If there's ever gonna be any meaningful change at this point it's going to take a LOT more backlash than when ShB dropped and pretty much every healer main complained about how braindead everything is now.

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I'm not sure if its just dismissal of the role itself that lead them to the design choices they are currently dedicating themselves to or if it is buckling down to Sylphies, who are a pretty loud and aggressive voice in the community. Like, I just saw a video where a guy was basically just giving healer the top to avoid overhealing and he got immediately attacked by Sylphies in the comment section for what is helpful advice for players who'd like to optimize. These players are hyper sensitive when it comes to just suggesting that in actuality, being able to contribute dps is the sign of a superior healer and so I feel like the devs just resigned themselves to just design enrage timers with healer dps in mind because they know it is the reality of every player who engages on this level on contact while keeping up the talk that it is totally not requried and accomodating these people. And we've seen over and over again that the devs often try to muddy the waters in terms of skill gaps at display by simplifying roles and professions. They did the same with Tanks, when playing in dps stance became more common place.

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Originally Posted by Dogempire

Square just can't be trusted to design healers.

It's pretty obvious by now that they don't care about the issues the role is facing because they only ever care about balance issues facing tanks or melee dps. If there's ever gonna be any meaningful change at this point it's going to take a LOT more backlash than when ShB dropped and pretty much every healer main complained about how braindead everything is now.

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I don't think they can be trusted to design jobs in general.

Melee are lucky regarding balance because SE has a strange idea that positionals and melee uptime are the height of skill and worth an additional 10% dps, but tanks and dps in general are poorly designed in my opinion and sliding downhill rapidly towards the bottom of the pit to join healers. Tanks have always been watered down melee dps with a few cooldowns and dps boil down to variations of 1-2-3 and oGCD's to fill the gaps for the sake of something to press. The latest dps additions of "aoe version of your single target oGCD" and "button that you can press when you use a 2m cooldown" are uninspired and lazy and things like Lego SMN and Kaiten removal are a bad sign.

SE have always had a tiny job design team and the game has been expanding expansion after expansion. It's caused them to fall behind. Healers have generally been the corner they cut and pushed to the side to reduce workload, but now even dps and tanks are stretching them thin. They pushed AST and DRG to 7.0 because the playerbase expects good quality and they simply can't keep up with that anymore. They have issues that they've ignored for years.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I don't think they can be trusted to design jobs in general.

Melee are lucky regarding balance because SE has a strange idea that positionals and melee uptime are the height of skill and worth an additional 10% dps, but tanks and dps in general are poorly designed in my opinion and sliding downhill rapidly towards the bottom of the pit to join healers. Tanks have always been watered down melee dps with a few cooldowns and dps boil down to variations of 1-2-3 and oGCD's to fill the gaps for the sake of something to press. The latest dps additions of "aoe version of your single target oGCD" and "button that you can press when you use a 2m cooldown" are uninspired and lazy and things like Lego SMN and Kaiten removal are a bad sign.

SE have always had a tiny job design team and the game has been expanding expansion after expansion. It's caused them to fall behind. Healers have generally been the corner they cut and pushed to the side to reduce workload, but now even dps and tanks are stretching them thin. They pushed AST and DRG to 7.0 because the playerbase expects good quality and they simply can't keep up with that anymore. They have issues that they've ignored for years.

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I feel like again Blizz actually came up with a good way of keeping Tank identity intact, engaging and unique after moving away from threat management with the introduction of personal mitigation, which gives tanks different modes of how they deal with incoming damage which is an active part of their Rotation, like DKs timing their Death Strikes to keep themselves healed, Warriors trying to keep up Shield Block while having to make decission on whether to spend their ressources offensively and defensively, Paladins having to make decissions between using their holy power for shield of the righteous or selfheal and of course Monks managing their stagger meter. Playing a DK is a totally differenrt experience than a Monk, the one is defensively weaker and has their healthbar spiking alot more but in turn being able to heal themselves up again while Monk is pretty smooth, postponing part of their incoming damage into a dot instead.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

For me, it's not about actions per minute or a rotation per se. From another thread:



The spirit being an interplay between two facets of your kit that creates a risk/reward system and a goal to aim for. For BLM, it's ice vs. fire. For WHM (and healers in general), it's healing vs. damage.

You can be a heal-bot. It's safe. It's cozy. But something in the kit should nudge you towards the idea that, at least for some moments, the best thing you can do to help end combat sooner rather than later is to deal damage yourself.

... snip for length ...

As for why WHM… aesthetics, mainly. Ironically, it is also, in my opinion, the only healer that currently has a damage dealing identity: Holy. Unfortunately, it applies only to trash mobs, but still, it's a subject of memes.

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I largely agree with this, WHM is the quintessential FF healer, so of course its going to appeal to a wider audience of players and having a lower point of entry makes sense.

However, this doesnt mean it cant have a higher ceiling or other healers shouldnt be more mechanically complex. All jobs should have different playstyles and varying difficulty levels.

I dont think healing is easy or boring, this depends on your skills, your familiarity with the content and the skill of the overall group.

While Ive not participated in really high end content yet, Ive played a wide variety of content with multiple jobs to a higher level and I'd say healing can be both one of the hardest and easiest roles to play. I think this might be part of the healer problem, because you dont want to push average or casual players out of the role. But is also why its so important to give roles higher ceilings and more advanced job options.


An idea for WHM specifically:

Split out basic DPS spells. Maybe split Stone/Glare and Aero/Dia out so they are unique DPS spells with single and AOE versions across 3 levels. Obviously adjust Aero and Dias added effects to make them unique. I'd also like to see a few party buffs.

Adjust afflatus so the blood lilly is available as soon as the gauge is unlocked, each afflatus growing the blood lilly by one point as it does. But, have 3 dps skills that consume 1, 2 or 3 levels of the blood lilly.

I'd then tie this together with a magic balance gauge similar to BLM, using DPS swings the gauge to DPS mode, increasing damage potency but reducing healing, while using healing swings it to Healer mode which does the opposite. Basically a light version that contrasts BLM.

When in full tier 3 DPS mode, the spells are comparable to a DPS but healing is reduced a lot, and the top tier spells capable to drawing enimity. So switching into DPS mode comes with risk if you need heavy healing or drawing aggro.

More average players get their safe healing job, but you have a slightly higher tactical ceiling and DPS options for more skilled players.

A big issue I see with healers atm is the whole concept of shield and pure healing, not sure why they even thought this was a good direction but here we are.
Regardless, the shield healers can provide both strong mit and healing, their counterparts the pure healers provide little mitigation with the exception of Neutral Sect. But here's the thing, there is no trade off because people want mit more than healing and the dmg of white mage and astrologian are behind in their counterparts. So we have a lean to more sage and scholar unfortunately. And although all healer design needs a change IMHO, they should consider mitigation is wanted MORE moving forward and balance the healers accordingly if they are going to be working within this shield vs pure healer concept.