Hissatsu: Kaiten

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

https://youtu.be/PMoUecr4zoI

:sobs:

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It's just so... hollow.

I won't profess that Kaiten is some amazingly active skill that radically changes or enhances Samurai's gameplay. It doesn't. It does, however, add some small flavor that the devs seem intend on removing lest the baby players struggle. Which is the actual reason for this change. They won't come out and say it as citing button bloat doesn't specifically highlight bad players but it's fairly obvious.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Some people like certain aesthetics and want to enjoy the jobs that match said aesthetics.

I'm not asking for 5 buttons, but many jobs have close to 3 full hotbars now. Its a bit much. Personally 16-20 buttons is enough for me.

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Too bad.

It's irksome how players who enjoyed several jobs as they were are essentially being told, "we don't care about your preferences. Casual Timmy over here likes how pretty <insert job> and we have to make it easier for him!" Instead of having a variety of jobs within a role based on different preferences. We're gradually moving towards everything being braindead simple just cause some players cry Stormblood Bard, Heavensward Dark Knight or Machinist were too hard. Screw the people who all liked those jobs. Casual Timmy wants to be an Edgelord.

I'd also rather not see all the jobs be reduced to the barren wasteland that is the Prange hotbar. Granted, stuff like Shoha II is just pointless bloat.

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Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

Notice how before the perplexing announcement to remove Kaiten, not a single person out there was saying things like “wow kaiten should be removed it’s a useless skill” or “I don’t like doing kaiten they should just bake the damage in”. way

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

3. Kaiten - I realize this is the only reason there is any friction at all in the samurai kit up until Tsubame, but what does it really add? It's just a matter of being able to remember, "Don't spend kenki unless you have >30 of it" which is not complicated. I feel like it is an unintuitive ability to newbies and it also just makes everything from levels 52 to 62 feel terrible because you don't generate enough kenki to kaiten for higenbana and midare in your opener. I think they need to find a more interesting way to add friction to the kenki gauge than this.

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Kaiten has always been a mediocre ability and I was hopeful they would cut it (along with Senei and Merciful Eyes) in the lead up to the combat live letter for EW. And now in a post EW world, I would add Shoha 2 as well. Although I was also hopeful they would replace kaiten with something else to make kenki use a little more interesting.

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Originally Posted by HayaW

I absolutely understand where you are coming from, but complexity can make something feel rewarding; like solving a puzzle.

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Won't be long until we're just like Guild Wars 2 and all I need to do is press the 1 button and the game will play itself....

Man, some of the posts in this thread are absurd. There's so much "I don't like it because it's too hard".

Managing your Kenki gauge and not blowing your load on Shinten isn't hard. Pressing Kaiten before doing a Midare or a Higanbana, is again, not hard. The class is not hard to play. All they had to do was have Guren and Shoha be upgraded via traits, and you've already removed two buttons off your hotbar. Frankly, aoe/single target split abilities that share CDs are the laziest and most uncreative form of job design, and they need to walk it back already. It's not fun, and it's literally pointless, because half the time you're only gonna use one of the two options anyways, because the other one is so hilariously bad. Looking at you Abyssal Drain.

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Originally Posted by Amh_Wilzuun

You said earlier that managing kenki was so simple that it can’t even be called management and now you are saying “just have full melee uptime bro lol”. Like what? Is having enough kenki not a matter of skill then still? I’m not saying that fights force you to have downtime but doing the mechs correctly rewards you with uptime… so it’s a matter of skill.

Also the range of content in this game far exceeds just the current raid tier, it could very well be a different story in the next one.

As for movement, not every disengage will last long enough to do multiple enpis or even be worth doing a single enpi over spending 10 kenki to dash back in. Also there might not even be an AOE, there’s plenty of times where the boss can warp somewhere and you burn 10 kenki to gap close. If you greeded shintens before that you very well could not have the kenki needed for your burst phase

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But you don't need to have full uptime to have kenki - there's a reason Enpi has an effect that gives you additonal kenki. It's why the potency is so low.

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Originally Posted by Apopopo

Man, some of the posts in this thread are absurd. There's so much "I don't like it because it's too hard".

Managing your Kenki gauge and not blowing your load on Shinten isn't hard. Pressing Kaiten before doing a Midare or a Higanbana, is again, not hard. The class is not hard to play. All they had to do was have Guren and Shoha be upgraded via traits, and you've already removed two buttons off your hotbar. Frankly, aoe/single target split abilities that share CDs are the laziest and most uncreative form of job design, and they need to walk it back already. It's not fun, and it's literally pointless, because half the time you're only gonna use one of the two options anyways, because the other one is so hilariously bad. Looking at you Abyssal Drain.

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This I agree with. They already destroyed Guren by giving it fall off damage so it's not a gain anymore on 2 targets. They should just delete Guren and give Samurai Senei at level 70

i agree that samurai has a LOT of buttons, but kaiten is not the one causing the problem. It's something of a core to the rotation, and *for me* one of the things that makes this class fun to play.
If they really want to reduce action bloat they could make shoha and shoha ll one single button AOE with fall off damage. The same could be applied to Hissatsu: Guren and Hissatsu: Senei.
Ikishoten could change to Ogi: Namikiri instead of ogi having it's own button

kaiten shall be missed it was tied to samurai for so long it might be hard to adjust to the change, i think its unwise however to exchange guaranteed crit skills for lower potency this will hurt samurai mains greatly an lock them out of groups for a preference of monk or reaper instead. going back to what the devs have said though this feels like a step backward as they said previously they would not nerf or weaken jobs... but this feels like exactly that this is weakening samurai for the cost of spending big moves which mind you have cooldowns an will be crits every time. not spammed like every other ability in its arsenal.
as many have said if they were concerned about button space they shoulda just merged shoha and shoha 2, deleted third eye(its essentially useless now and procs a weaponskill no one ever uses ever) and consolidate other skills to trait upgrades.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

It's just so... hollow.

I won't profess that Kaiten is some amazingly active skill that radically changes or enhances Samurai's gameplay. It doesn't. It does, however, add some small flavor that the devs seem intend on removing lest the baby players struggle. Which is the actual reason for this change. They won't come out and say it as citing button bloat doesn't specifically highlight bad players but it's fairly obvious.



Too bad.

It's irksome how players who enjoyed several jobs as they were are essentially being told, "we don't care about your preferences. Casual Timmy over here likes how pretty <insert job> and we have to make it easier for him!" Instead of having a variety of jobs within a role based on different preferences. We're gradually moving towards everything being braindead simple just cause some players cry Stormblood Bard, Heavensward Dark Knight or Machinist were too hard. Screw the people who all liked those jobs. Casual Timmy wants to be an Edgelord.

I'd also rather not see all the jobs be reduced to the barren wasteland that is the Prange hotbar. Granted, stuff like Shoha II is just pointless bloat.

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I'm not casual, nor am I bad. I just hated what they did to SAM in the last expansion.

And people acting like kaiten is somehow the lynchpin to what SAM is.

The forums are full of people overreacting (as usual).

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I'm not casual, nor am I bad. I just hated what they did to SAM in the last expansion.

And people acting like kaiten is somehow the lynchpin to what SAM is.

The forums are full of people overreacting (as usual).

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I didn't care much for Kaiten since Stormblood because back then you seldom used it and it really felt like a "I'm going to buff my BIG attack!" moment when you did use it. Now you spam it.