Put back Extreme trial on raid finder again...please

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

But have you farmers not have yals time, I mean seriously you have had months on up to a year to farm to your hearts desire to do content with no bonuses.

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Intresting - you're saying right now "Oh, to bad you wanted to farm this content, you're to late for that now!"
For the sake of people who might have been to late to get there first clears when everyone was doing/learning the content...?

I might have had real life reasons not to farm the content when it first came out (personally, with Zurvan I actually had), just as much as a person could have had personal reasons not to join learning parties when the content first came out. So right now, the system is telling the farmer "yep, you're to late to the party now", while the new person gets a VIP-ticket...

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Originally Posted by Talraen

Also the more I read in this thread, the more I wonder - does anyone actually farm in the RF? Isn't the point of farming to do the content over and over, which is much more suited to the party finder? Are we even arguing about things that actually happen (on either side of the debate)?

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I believe I have answered this already, but since we're all writing novels here, I'll repeat it: Yes, it actually happend. Sophia was the godess (pun intended) of this feature when they released that fight - specially because the fight required the standard set-up with two tanks (main reason it didnt worked aswell for Zurvan was that you only need one tank there, so there was the huge benefit of getting a 5th dps in when doing it with a full party). Me and some friends used that feature to get some fast clears in - and seeing how we had queuetimes below 5 minutes, I reckon a lot of other people did the same. While the point of farming is to do the content over and over again it only requires you to do that with people who know what they're doing - not necessarly with the same group. So, when farming only requires you to have 7 other people there who know what they're doing - why not have those 7 people randomly come from DF? (Yes, yes, we can argue that having the kill doesnt mean you know the fight - but it certainly increases the chance to get paired up with people who know the fight when everyone has the clear - during the farmruns my friend and I did in Sophia, using the RF, we saw like 4 wipes and one disband or so? Not remotly close to what I dealt with in Garuda EX when I tried to farm that in DF back in the old days...)
Queueing up for content like that is a lot more flexible than setting up a PF or joining a group.
Ask yourself why you dont make a PF-group everytime you want to do expert.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

snip.

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The idea that this content will be "irrelevant" and "unsynced" in 2 months can have zero effect on how difficult the fight can be for randoms, with no communication, who refuse to communicate, or listen to advice, or whatever. Irrelevancy does not necessarily decrease difficulty. If anything, it can just make the fight more difficult because people are like "lol this content is 3 patches old and I'm ilvl 270 now. Mechanics are for cars we don't need to actually do them." Just look at Thordan Ex. I got my clear WAY after it was "irrelevant" and people still died to simple mechanics. Or refused to do simple things like run to THEIR quadrant or even just grab the towers. How hard is that to understand that the towers still need to be dealt with. Same with SephEx. My SephEx clear--very first one--did not happen because the DPS were like "He's at 5%, we can just ignore the wind." Guess what. Seph knocked all of us off the platform with 2% health left. 2%.

This situation at hand will not go away come 4.0. If they decide to get rid of the Raid Finder and exclusively use Duty Finder, they need to either include the Duty Complete/Incomplete options, or require groups to enter as a full party for a couple patch cycles. Just because people don't clear content on the first day doesn't mean they should be treated differently than if they clear two patch cycles later. People need to stop advocating that a newbie to a fight's time is more important to those who want to FARM the content, or do fast and easy clears with randoms or with a full group. I will help people learn; I can usually be extremely patient with helping new people. But I won't sacrifice my farm time just to help one player who thinks they should have the right to make farm parties give them their initial clear because we've had "months to farm the content."

If the concept of just running everything unsynced made fights easier, why do people STILL have difficulty in T9, and make threads asking for either nerfs or to remove this one instance from Wonderous Tails.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

All of these Gartrs calling for EX raids to be put back in Raid Finder can just look in the mirror if they need to blame someone. You made the raid population as small as it is because you were too good to lower yourself to showing new players how things are done. Now you're complaining because new players don't know what to do in these raids?

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I don't care if the primals are in RF or DF. But I do care about having the option of, if I want to PUG a piece of content, let me choose to enter the fight with 7 other people who have already cleared it. I may not have the time to sit there and wipe for 60 minutes because I was group with 3 new people who couldn't grasp mechanics. If I want to farm content for mounts or weapons or whatever, I should have the right to group with LIKE MINDED PEOPLE (randoms or premade) to do so. Just because I have cleared the content doesn't mean that now I have to hold everyone's hand every time I get a new person in a duty, and sacrifice my time and what I want to do for them. If I want to teach, I put on my little Burger King crown and join learning groups. If I don't feel like teaching that day, I turn it off. I may be a mentor but I'm not obligated to help every single new player clear every piece of content every time I'm grouped with them. Do I still give pointer? Yes. But I will not carry anyone through a fight, new or not. You want a carry? Then put up a PF saying you'll pay for it.

I give newbies that sneak into farms a chance when I probably shouldn't. Because I usually end up just wiping for an hour, making very little progress. And I'm not any closer to getting my mount or my weapons or whatever I wanted to farm from it. But I still give them the chance (and the benefit of the doubt) because I was new once, too. And I appreciated when people did that for me.

No one here is saying that us with clears are magically superior to those who don't have them. Do people like that exist? Unfortunately yes. But that doesn't mean we're all like that.

For the record, I have cleared exactly one Savage raid: A9S (I don't count A1S really because it's just so faceroll easy now, and if I were to PUG it synced down to minimum or maximum ilvl, I would probably not be able to clear it in a single pull because I am unfamiliar with the mechanics that are skipped). I am not a raider. I would like to find a static so that I can raid in Stormblood, but I in no way consider myself "better" than people who don't raid. Don't lump everyone into one group of people.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The idea that this content will be "irrelevant" and "unsynced" in 2 months can have zero effect on how difficult the fight can be for randoms, with no communication, who refuse to communicate, or listen to advice, or whatever. Irrelevancy does not necessarily decrease difficulty. If anything, it can just make the fight more difficult .

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But the thing is this is that we're at the end of expansion stuff SE isnt gona just take a feature and do away with it people in this thread or overacting. The reason this was put in duty finder is because its to give more access to the content to everyone. The same reason why Alex has nerfs, they unlock the drops on shire weapons, are nerfing anima, uncapped dun scathe this is just obviously apart of the process.

There are tons and tons of no bonus parties you can pretty much say pf is pretty exclusive to those, and you may see the occasional learning party here or there. So its not like the opportunity to leave people out is still not there, its very much so there so I dont see the problem here. Everything else is opened up so why would it not make sense to put content in the duty finder.

And unsync pretty much guarantees success, those people complaining about t9 I dont even no what to say , cause I refuse to do the content because Im not gona do a raid unsync so I wouldnt know. Ill farm a bird or horse unsync but its no reason to do fights that have no rewards attach to them to create some sort of fabrication that your actually doing the content but thats another thing there. But again if someone has cleared these primals 50 times and havent gotten their drops , then they will have only 49 more unsync clears to do and they have their bird.

I dont really think they would care after beating the content to the ground that they got their bird after the content goes unsync. But some people like me want sync clears they want to exprience some what of a challenge while the content is still being ran by many sync, once unsync comes into effect that chance drasticly decreases while bird farmers chances drasticly increase. So Im sorry if we want to talk about fair then it seems pretty fair to me to give those with only two more months to get a sync clear a chance, as opposed to someone that can bird farm at anytime. If you disagree tell me how many, titan, ifrit, levi, king moogle, sync parties u see in the party finder today?

As numerous people in this thread have already explained in great detail, wanting Ex Primals to be put back in the RF has NOTHING to do with discrimination against new players. It has everything to do with the fact that the raid finder is currently the only interface with the option to filter out RUDE, DISRESPECTFUL, TIME WASTING individuals who have no idea how a fight works and join a party of people who state, VERY CLEARLY beforehand, that they are looking for fellow players who have completed it already and can farm it multiple times. These are people who are looking to enjoy the game on their own right now and not wanting to teach WHICH THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH!!! So the newbie joins their party (already disrespectful), doesn't speak up (adding more insult to injury), everyone gets pissed off and the party disbands. No one had fun and everyones time was wasted.

So yes, either the trials need to go back into both the RF and DF or the option to filter newbies out of farm parties in the PF needs to become an option just like RF currently has. And to everyone saying "ZOMG you filthy elitists just want to keep all the new scrubs out of content, you hate them and are being toxic to them" and "How are newbies supposed to learn if they get shunned from content like this??" Well ask yourself for a second, who is the more toxic person? The one who asks beforehand for people with experience or the person who ignores their reasonable request and trolls everyone? And as for how newbies are supposed to learn without vets to teach them? Well that's simple as well!!! We so called "vets" were once newbies ourselves and spent HOURS beating our heads into the wall wiping multiple times to learn these trials ourselves before they got nerfed and we didn't have any vets to teach us the mechanics!! If we could do it the newbies can too!

TL;DR Yes we need an option to filter out the trash.


/endrant


P.S.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

That's how the system works right now, with duty finder and party finder as the only options. If you add the raid finder with a "only people who have cleared this content" option, there will be some people (not you) who would have used the duty finder but will instead use the option, thus reducing the pool of good players available to help new players. Thus there will be less "people who share their version of fun (as in: learning the fight)" queuing.

Also the more I read in this thread, the more I wonder - does anyone actually farm in the RF? Isn't the point of farming to do the content over and over, which is much more suited to the party finder? Are we even arguing about things that actually happen (on either side of the debate)?

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Paragraph 1: Sounds like a personal problem. Vets aren't here to teach newbies, we are here to have fun just like they are. We have zero obligation to assist anyone yet sometimes we still do out of the kindness of our hearts. They should be grateful for what they get. If you are concerned about people using it to filter newbies out of MSQ content simply don't allow the "No Bonus" option to be selected for things like MSQ dungeons and Roulettes.

Paragraph 2: Yes people do farm in the RF. I got my first ever Soph Ex clear in the RF and many many successful clears after that because after I finally cleared it with other newbies at mt own level I had a good enough understanding of the fight that I could farm it. Everything after that was cleaning up little mistakes here and there. After I cleared it I was able to select the option to join only other people who had cleared it as well and our success rate only went up after that. It is a good system that I found was largely beneficial to everyone and was only decried by the trolls and people looking for carries.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

But the thing is this is that we're at the end of expansion stuff SE isnt gona just take a feature and do away with it people in this thread or overacting. The reason this was put in duty finder is because its to give more access to the content to everyone. The same reason why Alex has nerfs, they unlock the drops on shire weapons, are nerfing anima, uncapped dun scathe this is just obviously apart of the process.

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Where content is located (DF or RF) in no way decreases access to said content. It's not like RF excludes people with no clears. Perhaps many don't use it to PUG fights, but PF groups use it to enter duties with the guarantee that everyone in the group has cleared. If people have difficulty pugging because of long queue times, make a PF.

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There are tons and tons of no bonus parties you can pretty much say pf is pretty exclusive to those, and you may see the occasional learning party here or there. So its not like the opportunity to leave people out is still not there, its very much so there so I dont see the problem here. Everything else is opened up so why would it not make sense to put content in the duty finder.

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I suppose your data center is different, because I see learning/clear parties every day in PF. And if there's not one in PF, then take the initiative and make one. Stop relying on others to do so. It's like the saying: if you want something done, better do it yourself. Don't wait for others.

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And unsync pretty much guarantees success, those people complaining about t9 I dont even no what to say , cause I refuse to do the content because Im not gona do a raid unsync so I wouldnt know.

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Not necessarily as I've been in unsynced PFs for T9 that don't clear it on the first pull, and people start rage-quitting. I wouldn't really call that "success." When I joined a PF to clear T9 unsynced, because a new person wanted their clear, we never did manage to get it for them because people didn't want to handle the meteors properly, or think that we can let the golems eat one another and still be okay. Yeah, no.

Even unsynced content can still have mechanics that cause a wipe. If not because the mechanic can't be cheesed (like T9 golems), then because of the sheer arrogance of people thinking they can ignore them because they're unsynced. Seen a lot of wipes to that on mechanics that are ridiculously easy to deal with.

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Ill farm a bird or horse unsync but its no reason to do fights that have no rewards attach to them to create some sort of fabrication that your actually doing the content but thats another thing there.

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That contradicts what you just said about how you won't do content unsynced. And it's not like Coil doesn't give you anything because it's dated content. You love lore and the game's story? Do Coil. One of the best stories in the game. You want that High Allagan Coat of Fending, but can't really afford the crafted one on the MB? Farm T9 for it, or for the Body aethersones and make it yourself/have a friend do it. Player wants to do unsynced runs of every turn (minus turn 3 usually), and get their clears? Hello poetic bonus. Just because you don't see rewards in unsynced, dated content doesn't mean that everyone else does.

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I dont really think they would care after beating the content to the ground that they got their bird after the content goes unsync. But some people like me want sync clears they want to exprience some what of a challenge while the content is still being ran by many sync, once unsync comes into effect that chance drasticly decreases while bird farmers chances drasticly increase.

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I would absolutely love to do content synced/minimum ilvl. I would love to experience T13 at its original difficulty. And T9. There are like-minded people out there who want the experience of synced content. How do you find them? Make a PF: "Minimum ilvl clear for [content]! Come have some fun!"

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So Im sorry if we want to talk about fair then it seems pretty fair to me to give those with only two more months to get a sync clear a chance, as opposed to someone that can bird farm at anytime. If you disagree tell me how many, titan, ifrit, levi, king moogle, sync parties u see in the party finder today?

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No one here is saying they don't give new people a chance just because the content is two-three patches old. How many posters said they frequently join clear/learning groups just to help? I don't care if they keep the Ex primals in DF or RF, but I would still like the Duty Complete/Duty Incomplete options to, at the very least, ensure my full premade farm party is actually full of people that have cleared the content. If you want to do synced clears, make a PF and look for like-minded individuals to join you. They are out there.

What's not fair is you saying that you have the right to unsynced/synced clears, and that randoms should abide by your wishes because the content is dated, and "irrelevant" now.

And not Ex primals per say, but I actually saw a few PFs for minimum ilvl Coil runs not too long ago. Again, if you want to do content a certain way, take the initiative and make a PF yourself. Heck, if we were on the same data center, and you made a PF for running T13 or Levi Ex or Ramuh Ex synced/minimum ilvl, I would be interested in joining. I have nothing else to do, and why not challenge myself. Because after doing content unsynced for so long, you forget that you have to adjust for synced run. Case in point: the Ifrit Ex I got in my Mentor roulette yesterday. People not wanting to follow mechanics because they think we can steamroll this synced like we can unsynced.

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

As numerous people in this thread have already explained in great detail, wanting Ex Primals to be put back in the RF has NOTHING to do with discrimination against new players. It has everything to do with the fact that the raid finder is currently the only interface with the option to filter out RUDE, DISRESPECTFUL, TIME WASTING individuals


/endrant

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Let me ask you this then would you say to put the Arr primals in the rf as well then. I dont think youd advocate for that so why with the same fate coming swiftly to these primals should we keep them in the rf when in two months people could care less. Its not necessary , so we should appease farmers for two more months just to make them happy when they couldnt care less once the expansion hits. That's pretty much what everyone is arguing here a small two month window when it has been a certain way for the rf whole existence but you guys cant handle a mere two months.

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Let me ask you this then would you say to put the Arr primals in the rf as well then. I dont think youd advocate for that so why with the same fate coming swiftly to these primals should we keep them in the rf when in two months people could care less. Its not necessary , so we should appease farmers for two more months just to make them happy when they couldnt care less once the expansion hits. That's pretty much what everyone is arguing here a small two month window when it has been a certain way for the rf whole existence but you guys cant handle a mere two months.

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It's still two months. It's not like next week 4.0 is dropping, so let's just go ahead and remove these perceived "restrictions" on content that is current. People are still farming birds even now. Because RNG is a cruel mistress. It's not like everyone that cleared now has a bird, and therefore won't be doing this content anymore.

And if this is the system they implement, not giving us DF options to select Duty Complete/Incomplete, then, come 4.0 and every other subsequent patch with new Ex content, there will be this very same issue again. With the very same threads posted here. It's not going to go away just because Heavensward is ending. It'll just shift to the next expansion, and the next patch.

Have a little foresight and try to see what complications can arise in the future for decisions like this. And really, that can go beyond FFXIV to life in general, so it's not "it's just a game, that doesn't matter here."

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Originally Posted by bswpayton

Let me ask you this then would you say to put the Arr primals in the rf as well then. I dont think youd advocate for that so why with the same fate coming swiftly to these primals should we keep them in the rf when in two months people could care less. Its not necessary , so we should appease farmers for two more months just to make them happy when they couldnt care less once the expansion hits. That's pretty much what everyone is arguing here a small two month window when it has been a certain way for the rf whole existence but you guys cant handle a mere two months.

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Actually yes I would love for ARR Extreme Primals to be added to the Raid Finder as well. I think all Extreme Trials and Savage Raids should be in the RF as they are the most challenging content in the game that, let's face it, the majority of players are not cut out for. If I want to take the time (which I do on occasion) to join learning parties for ex trials and spend 90 minutes wiping to teach newbies how to do a trial or raid I will. But when it comes time for me to have some fun myself and actually clear the thing for my loot I don't want to deal with trolls trying to sneak their way in. The newbies always have the option to learn the content with other newbies like I had to when it first came out. I don't see why they should get special preference now just because the content is dated.

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Originally Posted by DaikiKiyoshi

Actually yes I would love for ARR Extreme Primals to be added to the Raid Finder as well. I think all Extreme Trials and Savage Raids should be in the RF as they are the most challenging content in the game that,.

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Because you guys are talkin like this is a majority of the playerbase and its not , Im sure you can count on your hands how many times a player thats never cleared said content has joined your farm party. I have cleared every hw primal Ive done but zur , and have yet to try nidhogg I wouldnt join a farm party myself simply because I know Im not a robot and I can make mistakes and Id rather not even bother than deal with some perfectionist that thinks everyone is a perfect preforming robot in a video game. So you want them to change a feature for these handful of instances where someone sneaks in the cracks. The feature is still there, its just been removed because its the end of the expansion.

You guys will have things your way when the two storm blood primals come out back to your filtered rf. So again two months is nothing for those whom havent cleared it when you have had six months are more of the rf filter. Im pretty bad at math but I know that six plus months is more than two months of these things still being relevant and being put in the df. I dont hear raiders coming on here saying stop nerfing alex so other people cant clear it, no they dont care because its over and done with.

This does not take away any chance to bird farm at all if anything like I said bird farming will be very easy if youd like to wait for this df thing to pass on and get your bird in two months. People who prefer df have had to wait way longer so I guess this is just a case of too bad just like someone said if a learning party doesnt fill up to bad you waited to late. The game cant please everyone and Id def say the cards have been in the favor of bird farmers long enough its not everyone elses fault that you cant accept a change for two months.

@HyoMinPark
You know that things will go back to normal with the two new primals that we get in sb so why is this bothering you, have those whom like df better not have to wait for this feature to happen. So whats wrong with everyone else who has had things in rf all this time having to wait til they can have things how they want it again?

And as far as the above post Ive taken plenty of advice on the forums some of yours to , Ive made my learning parties Ive cleared stuff etc. I did those Arr primals sync Im just refering to what the norm is as far as what the community decides what will happen and what will not happen. And the fact is the community will not run the content sync as they are now and we both are well aware of that. With my other statement I should of clarified, when I said I woudl bird farm those are only things that I had cleared before sync. The reason I would not do coil before is the opportunity to do it sync isnt there while the chance to do an arr primal sync was there even if it was rare should have clarified Im not hypocrite.

With people asking for the complete removal of Raid Finder in general, and saying that all content should be accessible in Duty Finder, the problem will not go away come Stormblood. Because those of us who want to farm will no longer have the option to do so without bonuses because DF does not offer such options, nor does the game tell you until after you enter the instance if a player doesn't have a clear. That is the main concern of us posting here.

I used RF to PUG Sophia a lot (and on days when I was feeling generous, I would even PUG under Duty Incomplete and help those that were new for as long as the party stayed together). But I usually used it for queuing into farm parties, and I liked that it had the option to prevent queuing if a player had not cleared the content. Because for one, it's disrespectful to join a farm party, tell no one that you don't have a clear, and just expect us to "deal with it" and teach you anyways. I don't care where the Ex primals or Savage raids are located. Just allow me to keep the Duty Complete/Incomplete option.

It "bothers" me so much that people are trying to say that they should get special treatment because they're new. We were all new once. It's not like it's something special or unheard of. I was new to all ARR content when I started. You as well. But I didn't ask nor expect veteran players to hold my hand and cater to what I wanted. I would ask for mechanic explanations. Whether they provided them or not, I would still just run the content instead of demanding they bend to my will.

I would need several pairs of hands to count the amount of people with no clears that snuck into my farm parties. I would need even more to count all the wipes they caused.