[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

IMO that should be up to devs to decide, and not be a concern of ours.

But to clarify, I agree with you in that your suggestion as the whole will make the experience better for everyone, but I am looking at the specifics and what the intentions behind them are.



But that.. is not what I am trying to say. I'm saying that skills within the class itself [specializations in other words] should be free for us to decide. How I understood your proposal was that to equip some higher BLM spells, you would have to have lower BLM spells equipped first. I think this is fine as far as traits go, but skills/spells themselves...?



Definitely. I am merely debating where exactly the line should be drawn, to provide the best possible game experience for the least amount of freedom lost. For the most part, I like what you're proposing.

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Forgive me by the way, I didn't mean for that to come off overly defensive.

Not necessarily spells, I mean that could be a choice, but you would have to choose from certain options. Lemme explain the levels a little better:

Each Level (5 max) is just progression for the specialization/job/omgwhatever. lol
Each level has a few things scattered in it that range from. Spells, abilities, spec enhancements (ex. INT+5 for BLM), spec traits (ex. Conserve MP 1 for BLM).

Now let's visualize this how they would lay this out (again this is an example):

LV1
- Fire/Blizzard/Ice/etc
- INT+5
- Converve MP 1
- Other things. I'm fried right now.

It'll gradually get more potent and much much more specific to BLM once you get into the upper tier with the final one giving BLM's their signature thing (whatever that may be: Ga IIIs, AMs).

LV4
- MP Charge: When a spell crits you get 20% of it's cost back.
- Conserve MP 3
- Fire/Blizzard/Ice/etc III


Now let's go back to the idea:
What I'm saying here is that you're given points and you must use a certain amount of points from whatever abilities/traits/bonuses/enhancement are in that level (or any level before it) before you can move onto the next level. This means that you go from the bottom of the list up. As opposed to now with no limits and we go from the top of the list down. Top obviously being better.

Is that clearer? I don't think I can further simplify that. This is what they've done in other Final Fantasies.

Btw: Talent trees are an evolution of old MUD games and D&D.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

That's easily fixed. At the moment class affinity between similar classes like THM and CON is very high. I would say excessively high. To the point that cross classed abilities have the same potency as the ones from the equipped class.

Lower the class affinity across the board (making sure that abilities don't become useless) and people will use cross classing abilities as they should, as support for their main class abilities.

The fact that the system has balance issues doesn't mean that it needs to be completely scrapped, or mutilated to the point that it's not recognizable. It can simply be rebalanced.

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Here is an easier way to fix it all:

Let certain earned abilities, like the PUG ability to get an extra 10% from healing spells, simply become passive on your character no matter what job you equip. You have 5000 hp... you get healed by a cure III for 500... you get an extra 50 hp... a small amount. * numbers here are all adjustable ( in practice you would probably change the skill to an extra 2% when not PUG-based main job).

It's like a merit system, you still get a small reward for having played and leveled other classes. I think everyone wants to be a better adventurer for having spent the time to level another class. Another example... the CON Fast Cast... once you learn the ability, all your magic spells will cast at an extra 2% faster regardless of what class/job you chose, and 5% faster on any CON-based class you chose.

These passives would be active after earning them, and never erased from your character. So your level 1 ARC would start with a passive 2% fastcast and passive 5% healing recieved, because your CON and PUG had already been leveled up.

This isn't a radical overhaul, it's just taking existing bonuses, and making them a part of your base character. Like merits from FFXI. It rewards players for having leveled a different class, fits into the lore, and removes the need for 'class afinity' that creates 'grey mages' that have access to any spell they like, while still allowing for balance.

EDIT: This is not for ALL ABILITIES, but perhaps one or 2 per class upon reaching rank 40 or 50.

For example: I have reached CON 50 and purchased the 'Fast Cast' ability with marks. From now on, any job I play will have a latent bonus of 2% faster cast time and 4% faster with CON-related jobs (BLM or WHM). That is the ONLY bonus I receive for having a CON 50. It reflects the time I spent leveling CON, and lets me utilize my CON knowledge on other classes, whilst my affinity with CON spells is reduced to 50%.

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Originally Posted by MagicofGaia

So you are implying that the following scenario is correct..

-Level your glad to 'X' level (quest level, 20/30)
-Pick PLD, level to 50
-Make decision to play DRK instead

By going and completing the DRK quest, are you implying that your DRK would start at class rank 30? or is it at 50 and you are just assigning points?


Personally, I prefer the xi approach of having to physically level the new class. Just making sure I'm following your thought process.

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I'm saying either way works. But in my particular example I kept the points restricted to the base class "Gladiator" and allowed you to go from 50 PLD to 50 DRK.

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Originally Posted by Alpha_Zeon

How do you get Samurai from Lancer, thats just odd.

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Actually, Samurai were adept in the use of the nodachi as well as the spear. You could think of it in this way; the spear is a training weapon for a character until they reach Rank 20 (or whatever). Once they reach that milestone, they can then pick up a nodachi and learn the ways of the sword. Something like that you know? Attach some nice little lore onto that and voila, you have your advanced class of Samurai.

When you talk to the NPC he/she would say something like; "I see you've become pretty good with that spear, but if you want to be even better perhaps you should do my quest and I'll teach you how to use a great katana? Accept my quest?" ^_^

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Originally Posted by Shazaam

Here is an easier way to fix it all:

Let certain earned abilities, like the PUG ability to get an extra 10% from healing spells, simply become passive on your character no matter what job you equip. You have 5000 hp... you get healed by a cure III for 500... you get an extra 50 hp... a small amount. * numbers here are all adjustable ( in practice you would probably change the skill to an extra 2% when not PUG-based main job).

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I'm sorry but theres not a single ounce of balance in anything you suggested. So what happens when you level everything, which people are actually really close to doing, and you have all traits...? Seriously, there shouldn't even be classes at that point and everyone is grey as you put it.

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Originally Posted by MagicofGaia

So you are implying that the following scenario is correct..

-Level your glad to 'X' level (quest level, 20/30)
-Pick PLD, level to 50
-Make decision to play DRK instead

By going and completing the DRK quest, are you implying that your DRK would start at class rank 30? or is it at 50 and you are just assigning points?


Personally, I prefer the xi approach of having to physically level the new class. Just making sure I'm following your thought process.

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Purely conjecture and theory but:

I think it would have you start at 20/30 drk, but with NO points in the DRK 'tree/spheregrid/licenseboard/abilitypool' (whatever you want to call it) You would be lvl 20/30 drk because you already have the experience of being a GLD and know how to fight. Your DRK or PLD specific powers would be a lvl 1 though. As you continue to level up, you will gain skill as a GLD and either as a PLD or DRK. So you could cap out GLD at 50, and PLD at (random average number let's say 10). If you wanted to go level DRK, you would still be a GLD 50 with all GLD skills available, but you would have to start at DRK 1, meaning no DRK bonuses. You could continue to level your DRK up to (random number 10) but would no longer receive exp for your capped GLD. Much like how the current physical/rank level system works.

Instead of physical level, it would be 'GLD level', and a separate rank level in for the 'advanced class' of PLD or DRK. Still 2 exp systems, but one that raises the 'base class' level, and one that raises the 'job' level.

Again, just adding conjecture to the thread, I am sure a rested Kaze will have a better response for you.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Now let's go back to the idea:
What I'm saying here is that you're given points and you must use a certain amount of points from whatever abilities/traits/bonuses/enhancement are in that level (or any level before it) before you can move onto the next level. This means that you go from the bottom of the list up. As opposed to now with no limits and we go from the top of the list down. Top obviously being better.

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Yeah, I see that. I am in favor of using them for traits and such, but what exactly in your opinion is the problem of going top down to bottom? I mean, we aren't doing that at rank 1 since we have no access to uber skills but once you're level 50, shouldn't you be able to use the cool stuff you've gained freely? Or is there a balance factor to take into consideration? Obviously the encounters would be balanced with this in mind, and proper limitations (higher action costs) can be set for equipping skills from other specs (not classes, since the spec skills are class specific) so that you can't hoard all the top level skills from every spec within the class.

What do you think?

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

I'm sorry but theres not a single ounce of balance in anything you suggested. So what happens when you level everything, which people are actually really close to doing, and you have all traits...? Seriously, there shouldn't even be classes at that point and everyone is grey as you put it.

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Perhaps I misworded my post, it would not be EVERY trait. Just one or maybe even 2 per class that become small bonuses like merits.

I am not suggesting that everything be available, but certain bonuses for leveling a class, akin to merits in FFXI. And at a greatly reduced benefit. Like I said, the number values should be reduced, changing Fast cast from 10% to a passive 2%. Perhaps one bonus for reaching lvl 50 that becomes passive. I like the thought that my main character in FFXI had an extra +2 to sword at level 20 from my having merited sword on my lvl 75 rdm.

It makes sense that after leveling my CON to 50 I would have some innate knowledge of magic, and thus I get a latent +2% magic potency bonus despite what job I pick. (again like FFXI merits)

Pick one or 2 certain abilities like 'fast cast' and let them have scalable increases as a passive (akin to merits). When you level everything, you get a number of small benefits like +3% heals done to you(PUG 50), +2% casting speed(CON 50), +1% damage(MRD40)... etc.

It isn't going to break the game, but it will set those who have earned the bonuses a 'bit' apart from the others.

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Originally Posted by Shazaam

I am not suggesting that everything be available, but certain bonuses for leveling a class, akin to merits in FFXI. And at a greatly reduced benefit. Like I said, the number values should be reduced, changing Fast cast from 10% to a passive 2%. I like the thought that my main character in FFXI had an extra +2 to sword at level 20 from my having merited sword on my lvl 75 rdm.

Pick one or 2 certain abilities like 'fast cast' and let them have scalable increases as a passive (akin to merits). When you level everything, you get a number of small benefits like +3% heals done to you, +2% casting speed, +1% damage... etc.

It isn't going to break the game, but it will set those who have earned the bonuses a 'bit' apart from the others.

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That honestly seems overcomplicated other than imbalanced.

Also, adding more passive stuff is, IMHO, not really a good idea.

The advantage of the current system is that, with all abilities being active, no matter how many abilities you have, you're still limited in their usage by stamina and plain time. You cannot use all your abilities at the same time, and while you may have a varied ability pool, you will always have to make a choice on which ones to activate at every given time.

Having abilities reduced as passives not only completely changes the system, making it way more boring, but it also completely removes the stamina/time limitations.

The only real problem with the current armory system is that you can use abilities from another class (as long as the affinity is high) pretty much like they were the abilities from your main class, basically giving those abilities a main role (and often replacing the abilities of your current class) instead of a support role like they should have.

That's why, IMHO; simply reducing affinity across the board would help. When I use a THM spell on a CON, it's potency shouldn't be almost the same as if i use it on THM. It should be nearer to 70%
If i use a THM spell on a physical class it should be reduced even further, like 50%.

That way people would be encouraged to stick to their role more, using cross classed abilities as a source of flexibility, without having full fledged tank/dd/healer/nuker hybrids.

Which final fantasy had a spec tree? And CoD had the originality of leveling up and an amazing contol layout. So...I'm curious what don't you guys like about having a final fantasy tactics style of getting the advance jobs?