Monks very weak. Need rebalance

I wanted to show yall the current logic for the rotation, by far the most complicated one yet.

Even if you don't understand code the logic should be in place.

Let me know if something is glaringly wrong =D

ps, || means logical OR , and && means logical AND.

Code:

//this checks to see if we have a GCD to consume if(bs.isGCD()) { //this gets the timings for the time since the last time we cast those attacks. lastGL = currEvent.eventTime() - bs.getLastGL(); lastTwin = currEvent.eventTime() - bs.getLastTwin(); lastDK = currEvent.eventTime() - myTarget.getLastDK(); //basically sets the last time we did demo to a million years ago if we're lacking demo (for PB) lastDemo = (myTarget.demo()?currEvent.eventTime() - myTarget.getLastDEMO().eventTime():-100000); //this gets our current GCD (modified by GL stacks) currGCD = bs.getGCD(); //this just does PB at the start of the fight if(currEvent.eventTime()==0 && !bs.pbCD()) { bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.PB, myTarget); continue; } //this tells us what we do inside a PB if(bs.pb()) { //setup GL and buffs, first priority during PB if(bs.gl() < 3) { //only Demo during PB only after buffs if we're starting with pb if(!myTarget.demo() && (currEvent.eventTime() > 1000 || bs.bfb() && bs.ir())) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.DEMO, myTarget); else //otherwise SP bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.SP, myTarget); } else { //once we have GL3, setup other buffs, prioritizing DK before OPO form runs out if(bs.getLastStance() == MNKSimulator.Stance.OPO && !myTarget.dk()) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.DK, myTarget); else if(!bs.twin()) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.TWIN, myTarget); else //if we have all buffs, just SP for max damage. { bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.SP, myTarget); } } } else { //do different timings based on stance switch(bs.getLastStance()) { //we only have NONE stance if we just came out of PB or we had to leave target case NONE: //basically if we don't have DK, Twin or GL3, or demo, immediately start GL combo if(!myTarget.dk() || lastDemo >= 1800 - currGCD * 2 || lastGL >= 1200 - currGCD*3 || lastTwin >= 1200 - currGCD * 2 || bs.gl() < 3) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.DK, myTarget); else if(!myTarget.tod()) //otherwise, we have time to ToD bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.TOD, myTarget); else if(!myTarget.fr()) //otherwise, we have time to FR bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.FR, myTarget); else //otherwise ID filler bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.ID, myTarget); break; case RAPTOR: if(lastTwin >= 1200 - currGCD*3) //if twin will fall off within next combo bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.TWIN, myTarget); //this tests timings to see whether we have time to filler else if(lastGL < 1200 - currGCD*2 && lastDemo < 1800 - currGCD && lastTwin < 1200 - currGCD && lastDK < 1500 - currGCD*3) { //filler priority is ToD > FR > ID if(!myTarget.tod()) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.TOD, myTarget); else if(!myTarget.fr()) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.FR, myTarget); else bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.ID, myTarget); } else bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.TRUE, myTarget); break; case COEURL: //more timings, demo if it will expire in less than 3 seconds (arbitrary number here) if(!myTarget.demo() || (lastDemo > 1500 && currEvent.numBuffs() > myTarget.getLastDEMO().numBuffs())) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.DEMO, myTarget); //otherwise SP if DK, GL, or Twin will fall off else if(lastGL >= 1200 - currGCD || lastDK >= 1500 - currGCD*2 || lastTwin >= 1200 - currGCD*3) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.SP, myTarget); else { //otherwise filler if(!myTarget.tod()) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.TOD, myTarget); else if(!myTarget.fr()) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.FR, myTarget); else bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.ID, myTarget); } break; case OPO: //dk if dk is going to fall off if(!myTarget.dk() || lastDK > 1500 - currGCD*3) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.DK, myTarget); //if nothing's going to fall off we can filler else if(lastGL < 1200 - currGCD*3 && lastDemo < 1800 - currGCD * 2 && lastTwin < 1200 - currGCD*2 && lastDK < 1500 - currGCD) { if(!myTarget.tod()) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.TOD, myTarget); else if(!myTarget.fr()) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.FR, myTarget); else bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.ID, myTarget); } //if somehow we get here (usually because i've disabled ID filler, we can BS if DK won't fall off else if(myTarget.dk() && lastDK < 1500 - currGCD*3 && myTarget.canBackstab()) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.BS, myTarget); else //if we run out of stuff to do might as well DK to continue rotation bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.DK, myTarget); break; } } } //this checks to see if there is an oGCD slot for an action else if(bs.isOGCD()) { //do all OGCD actions here //PB if its up, and we are either missing GL stacks or the stance isn't COEURL (so we don't waste a coeurl) if(!bs.pbCD() && (bs.gl() < 3 || bs.getLastStance() != MNKSimulator.Stance.COEURL)) { bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.PB, myTarget); } //do BfB > IR > HF > Peak > invig cooldowns, too lazy (and not much point) in saving to stack. else if(!bs.bfbCD()) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.BFB, myTarget); else if(!bs.irCD() && (!myTarget.demo() || lastDemo > 1200)) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.IR, myTarget); else if(!bs.hfCD()) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.HF, myTarget); else if(!bs.peakCD()) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.PEAK, myTarget); else if(bs.getTPBalance() < 540) bs.addAction(MNKEvent.EventType.INVIG, myTarget); }

If you're going to use PB as a starter why not do.

PB > DK(B4B) > TwS(IR) > SnapPunch(HowlingFist)> SnapPunch(SteelPeak) > Demolish

Why use howling fist/steel peak before setting up DK, and TwS? Seems like a waste of extra damage, I'd actually like to see the math in comparison on this one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynric

If you're going to use PB as a starter why not do.

PB > DK(B4B) > TwS(IR) > SnapPunch(HowlingFist)> SnapPunch(SteelPeak) > Demolish

Why use howling fist/steel peak before setting up DK, and TwS? Seems like a waste of extra damage, I'd actually like to see the math in comparison on this one.

Not sure, but for one thing, I assumed since you are not in Opo stance at the beginning of PB you shouldn't DK until after the first SP at least. DK only applies debuff if used in Opo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Not sure, but for one thing, I assumed since you are not in Opo stance at the beginning of PB you shouldn't DK until after the first SP at least. DK only applies debuff if used in Opo.

This was actually changed during Retail version. Not sure if right off the bat, or with one of the early patches.

DK debuff is in fact applied during PB. PB effectively removes any stance you have up, and acts as a sort of universal stance, at least as far as Dragon Kick's debuff is concerned. I have not tested other bonus effects actually.

That being said, I prefer getting to the GL3 buff first and foremost before I apply DK or TS.

MY PB opener is PB > SPx3 > DK > TS > PB wears off. Then I simply continue with DK > TS > Demo > ToD. If I have reason to not keep my rotation flank-only I will start with BS > TS > Deemo > ToD.

Yeah PB has been applying DK's debuff, and arm of destroyer has been silencing in it since early access.

Also Noctis I prefer to setup twin snakes and DK before hand since usually by the time I finish the PB rotation TwS is starting to fall off then afterward DK starts to fall off so it fits pretty well for me to start back up. But yours lets you true strike once so I guess its a matter of preference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynric

Yeah PB has been applying DK's debuff, and arm of destroyer has been silencing in it since early access.

Also Noctis I prefer to setup twin snakes and DK before hand since usually by the time I finish the PB rotation TwS is starting to fall off then afterward DK starts to fall off so it fits pretty well for me to start back up. But yours lets you true strike once so I guess its a matter of preference.

I don't even True Strike honestly. I just consider a stack of Greased Lightning a higher priority buff due to the collective 7% damage buff and the 5% attack speed buff in one. Applying them earlier lets me get through the sequence faster.

Overall, I'd say there isn't much of a difference if at all in terms of DPS for that segment. What really matters is setting your rotation up properly based on your preference like you said.

Oh okay, well PB applying all buffs, I need to indicate that in my sim, thanks for the info.

As for opening rotation, I have no idea what is better, but tbh, mathing it out is better than simming it, because this is a thing that doesn't greatly affect total dps and variance in simming is going to give you skewed results.

Also as far as I can see you can only fit 4 abilities into PB, even if you start with SP/Demo, so you either exit it missing Twin, 1 stack of GL, or DK.

Because it only takes 2 GCDs to setup twin, while it takes 4 for Dk and 3 for GL, I would suggest leaving Twin out of the PB opener.

If someone has a good reason why their opening rotation is the best I'd be happy to use it, I don't know monk well enough really.

The reasoning behind leaving out Twin Snakes seems plausible. If that were the case I'd just use Noctis' rotation.

Also with enough Skill speed if you start your rotation building GL then you can manage to eek out extra skills in PB.

If Arm of The Destroyer silences in PB, and Dragon Kick applies it's debuff, safe to assume Bootshine not always critting in Perfect Balance is an oversight?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blooregard

If Arm of The Destroyer silences in PB, and Dragon Kick applies it's debuff, safe to assume Bootshine not always critting in Perfect Balance is an oversight?

Probably intentional, the buffs are utility things where as if bootshine crit inside perfect balance it'd just be a damage thing. Could be anything though, the way the stances work, the way PB was scripted, the way bootshine is, whether the crit is handled differently. Could be a bug too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeoAmon

DRG as a job is pure garbage IMHO, on the other hand MNKs are generally way better. Skills plays a big part in it, and most DRG players are below average skill wise (sometimes it is even low IQ issues).

I agree, I have done coil both in DRG and MNK and MNK is way superior, but when it comes to lower grade instances like clearing trash mobs in AK or WP DRG has the upper hand, more burst damage, etc, while MNK you can easily drop greased lightning in btw fights, which can be annoying, wish the duration on it was at least 18 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evtrai

I agree, I have done coil both in DRG and MNK and MNK is way superior, but when it comes to lower grade instances like clearing trash mobs in AK or WP DRG has the upper hand, more burst damage, etc, while MNK you can easily drop greased lightning in btw fights, which can be annoying, wish the duration on it was at least 18 seconds.

You can't just have MNK be great at everything lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onyxys

Greetings. I think, that monks are the weakest DPS class in the game. For example my critical hits on level 50 with GC-weapon and some DL gear are almost always beyond 300 (260-280). Dragoons make much more damage and have very good AoE- monk not. Yes, I know about Dragon kick and Greeased lightning and yes- Im playing only monk and know this class rather good. So, I want developers rebalance monks and some of their skills- for example skill "Shoulder Tackle" is very stupid and unusable because of it LONG cool down and stupid condition of use. Thank you

you need to effectively learn to play this class. their dps is fantastic the only fixing monks need is the extenstion of greased lightning duration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myrik

you need to effectively learn to play this class. their dps is fantastic the only fixing monks need is the extenstion of greased lightning duration.

No that is the last thing they need. Increase Twin Snakes duration and decrease Shoulder Tackle cool down (remove stun) is all they need.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MomoOG

No that is the last thing they need. Increase Twin Snakes duration and decrease Shoulder Tackle cool down (remove stun) is all they need.

Exactly... Greased lightning is fine... Twin snakes buff is an issue. Shoulder tackles long cooldown + wierd range requirements are an issue... Fists of Wind being nearly worthless is an issue.

GL is fun the way it is... any longer and it would just be a stupid buff that is always there.

After seeing the kind of damage I'm able to put down I'm of the idea that GL doesn't really need to change that much. It profoundly sucks when you have no choice but to drop it, but eh.

One Ilm Punch NEEDS to change. That move is pathetic at the moment. It should be put into their PvP skills and replaced with something else. Shoulder Tackle should have a lower CD and not have the stupid "not too far, but not too close" range. If you're in range for it, you can use it, even if you're right next to them. It worked that way in 1.23 so I don't really understand the need to change it, drop the Stun if that's what they're worried about.

True Strike is also bleh unless you have a super high amount of Skill Speed, which goes hand in hand with the Twin Snakes buff being far too short IMO. It should be increased so that you can actually use the move you got at level 2 effectively the whole game, not just at 50.

TP gain needs a change but this could be applied to all TP users

Make it where every auto attack gives back 10-20 TP

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slirith

TP gain needs a change but this could be applied to all TP users

Make it where every auto attack gives back 10-20 TP

TP is to keep Melee in check. If we had more TP we would do a lot more damage.

Monk Dots do a ton of damage when you have 3 stacks of greese keep you're dots up big dps

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slirith

TP gain needs a change but this could be applied to all TP users

Make it where every auto attack gives back 10-20 TP

No.

/10nopesssssss

Ok my only thing is this the fact that you need 491 skill speed to use twinsnakes and Truestrike in the same combo without the TS buff falling off is kind of crazy. I think GL should be 14-15 sec but if that don't happen no big deal at all I can keep GL either way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by raikage

Ok my only thing is this the fact that you need 491 skill speed to use twinsnakes and Truestrike in the same combo without the TS buff falling off is kind of crazy. I think GL should be 14-15 sec but if that don't happen no big deal at all I can keep GL either way.

Yeah, and it's not worth it at all to stack that much skill speed at the cost of better stats like crit or det for True Strike. Twin Snakes buff being extended would perhaps make sense.

GL is perfectly fine as 12s though. Takes about 6 seconds to get through the 3 skills to refresh it, so having 2x the min time needed works rather nicely. It can't be too easy to maintain or else the potency of the buff would have to be nerfed for balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Yeah, and it's not worth it at all to stack that much skill speed at the cost of better stats like crit or det for True Strike. Twin Snakes buff being extended would perhaps make sense.

GL is perfectly fine as 12s though. Takes about 6 seconds to get through the 3 skills to refresh it, so having 2x the min time needed works rather nicely. It can't be too easy to maintain or else the potency of the buff would have to be nerfed for balance.

I agree if the boost the twinsnakes buff to move more time on it or even fist of fire to 10% that would be amazing for us.

Monks do not need a damage boost.

For now, accept that true strike is a dps loss (even if you can fit in both true and twin), but is only a pretty significant TP efficiency gain.

You should always use True if you have TP problems, even if it causes twin to fall off for second twin.

EDIT: changed my tune cause math says I'm wrong =(

Quote:

Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Making GL drop 1 stack at a time and making shoulder tackle a 5 yalm min distance are the only adjustments monks need..

GL change? Nope. Making it drop 1 stack at a time would be a damage boost.

Shoulder Tackle change. Sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pandabearcat

For now, accept that true strike is a dps loss (even if you can fit in both true and twin), but is only a TINY TP gain.

Just remove the skill from your bars. Its only use is when you cannot flank an enemy, which should almost never happen but if it does, your damage is going to be poop anyway.

It is a tiny, tiny, TINY, please let me repeat that, TINY, absolutely miniscule, aka you will not notice it, ever, not unless the fight is an hour long, you might see it shave off 1 second off your kill time.

It is not worth, ANYTHING.

Whoa there. True Strike is (a) a meaningful TP efficiency gain (not huge, but not tiny), and (b) sort of sustainable if you dodge long attack cycles.

It's asinine to "chase" True Strike usage by stacking Skill Speed, but at the same time if you approach the fight with any sort of TP efficiency in mind, then it's a good idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Whoa there. True Strike is (a) a meaningful TP efficiency gain (not huge, but not tiny), and (b) sort of sustainable if you dodge long attack cycles.

It's asinine to "chase" True Strike usage by stacking Skill Speed, but at the same time if you approach the fight with any sort of TP efficiency in mind, then it's a good idea.

Well you lose 10 less TP in a 2 rotation cycle, so you use 330 instead of 340 TP.

With a rough 2.0 sec GCD, you drain ~28.33 TP/s with Twin while with True you drain 27.5 TP/s.

IIRC monks have a roughly 23.33 TP/s gain, so it will take you 200 seconds (3 min 20 seconds) to TP out.

With True, it will take you ~240 seconds (4 min) to TP out. Its a pain either way, but you do gain 40 seconds if you are that TP strapped, with 100% uptime.

Shrug. It might be worth using regardless of GCD actually.

Assuming that twin only falls off for twin (and not any other thing like ticks or autoattack), Twin/Twin is 140*1.1*2/120 = 2.57 p/tp.

Twin/True is (140 + 140*1.025*1.1)/110 = 2.707 p/tp.

Yes I know 5% crit is not a 2.5% damage increase. However, even without any crit bonus Twin/True is a 2.67 p/tp combo, making it more efficient than Twin/Twin

So yea. Um, if you are running out of TP.

First, drop ID (if you were ever using it, ugh its bad).

Then drop FR (its slightly better than ID).

Then go twin/true.

So I retract my statement. True is good, and you should ALWAYS use it if you have TP problems.

They need to fix Perfect Balance... Happens a lot when I use PB it doesnt activate and its on cool down

Quote:

Originally Posted by pandabearcat

First, drop ID (if you were ever using it, ugh its bad).

Then drop FR (its slightly better than ID).

In terms of rotational use, FR moderates itself simply by being a dot. It's efficiency may not be much less than ID, but when used in rotation it's not nearly as bad since you only use it every 18 seconds.
Including ID in your rotations burns your TP like nobody's business. Including Fracture isn't that significant (though I wouldn't recommend it on REALLY TP draining fights).

Also, I like the rotation with True so I'd like if they increased the time so I don't have to stack Skill Speed just to use it.
It should be more damage with it, more TP efficient and takes no effort to include it.

I crit around 450-650 snap punch depending on self buffs being on.

The amount of 200-300 hits, 300-400 crits I see happening all the time, PLUS my dots ticking for 120~ or so is pretty nuts.

MNK's with Gear are amazing DPS, especially for those who know their rotation.

And shoulder tackle being bad? Is the OP serious???...

Anyways, Greased Lightning needs fixing, make it last 15 seconds and make Twin Snakes buff last 15 seconds as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AegisXI

They need to fix Perfect Balance... Happens a lot when I use PB it doesnt activate and its on cool down

It's not only PB, I've had this happen with Aetherflow, BfB, Bliz3 not giving stacks of umbral ice, etc. Seems to have started happening recently, especially at peak times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soukyuu

It's not only PB, I've had this happen with Aetherflow, BfB, Bliz3 not giving stacks of umbral ice, etc. Seems to have started happening recently, especially at peak times.

Blood for blood seems to be the one ability that loves to act up on me. Sometimes I sit and spam it and it never goes off... never know why that one does it so much.

Not going off is because you can't use it while you are in an animation. They basically removed the movement animation lock, but skill execution seems to be still affected. So being off gcd is pretty relative. You basically can weave it in at around half of your GCD.

What AegisXI meant is skill going off but NOT granting you the effect.

MNK real need some good aoe skill. MNK aoe skill not only drains too much TP but also do too less Dmg.
MNK total DPS is never close to a good BLM in Turn4. Two flare in sec need monk 1 min DPS to catch up.
Good Blm and bad Blm has 50% total DPS difference from my parser log. That's why we never seen lf MNK for WP but LF BLM and BRD all the times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by neoreturn

MNK real need some good aoe skill. MNK aoe skill not only drains too much TP but also do too less Dmg.
MNK total DPS is never close to a good BLM in Turn4. Two flare in sec need monk 1 min DPS to catch up.
Good Blm and bad Blm has 50% total DPS difference from my parser log. That's why we never seen lf MNK for WP but LF BLM and BRD all the times.

Again, every job can't just be good at everything. Rockbreaker is actually quite strong.

Sure, a BRD or BLM may be better at AoE (really just BLM since the BRD will run out of TP even faster than a MNK using Rockbreaker) but MNK is is the best when it comes to single target.

Dreadnaughts in Turn 4 is a good example of where a MNK will shine.

or not ; blm still has more single target and aoe damage than us and good brd have also has more singletarget dps than us .....

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Again, every job can't just be good at everything. Rockbreaker is actually quite strong.

Sure, a BRD or BLM may be better at AoE (really just BLM since the BRD will run out of TP even faster than a MNK using Rockbreaker) but MNK is is the best when it comes to single target.

Dreadnaughts in Turn 4 is a good example of where a MNK will shine.

Rockbreaker is definitely not to be underestimated... especially of you combine Blood for Blood and Perfect Balance to throw it out 5 times in succession at 156 Potency. I've participated in WP Speedruns with BRD or BLM being the other DPS and did just fine. Sure, the monsters didn't die quite as quickly, but the Tank wasn't dying either. Still quick, still happy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reyki

or not ; blm still has more single target and aoe damage than us and good brd have also has more singletarget dps than us .....

No, they don't. Bard's do less damage hit for hit than a Monk at the top of her momentum and have a longer GCD, balanced by the fact that they can almost always be attacking. Additionally, its very arguable that a Bard is not being a "good" Bard unless she is singing something useful at all possible times. Black Mages are hampered by cast times and the complete inability to do much damage while moving. This is balanced by the fact that their spells hit hard.

Monks, as mentioned before, are indisputable kings when it comes to sustained DPS on a powerful single target. Once we get going, it's completely possible to never lose DPS for any reason other than a CD Buff expiring. Of course, we can wreck even more with a high Skill Speed plus a Bard :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reyki

or not ; blm still has more single target and aoe damage than us and good brd have also has more singletarget dps than us .....

Get your facts straight. What concerns me more is that you appear to be a MNK main, too.

BRD is the lowest single target DPS I believe. That is unless DRG is. One of the two. BRD is typically desired for AoE, songs and/or being a ranged class. BRD also happens to be the easiest job to play at 90%+ optimal performance. Grab a random BRD, check their gear and you more or less know what kind of DPS you're getting because it is actually difficult to play bad as a BRD lol.

MNK as a job is clear single-target DPS king, and by quite a margin in fact. However, there are far fewer players able to harness this optimal play on MNK, which leads to a nasty rumor and/or misguided thought that MNKs suck lol.

have u ever been on conditions that allow u to focus on bossess and stay still without moving and losing ur gl3 ? no ... perhaps u can outdps brds on dummy and on paper ,but not in real conditions ......also , make test with equivalent gear on all classes and u'll see ...

so , no , ull never be the king on singletargets dps in dungeons , and that untill the 2.1 ...

the only fact is that our class need to be twicked a bit , but not that much too ...that to be the best singletarget DD.

gl duration is fine , gl loss no , Perfect balance and Shoulder tacke CD need to be reduced and invigorate needs also to bring us more PT over time to allow us to dps in perfect conditions on long fights ( turn 4 and more in turn 5)

So don't tell that our class is perfect as it is because it's untrue ...

If SE will increase melee damage in 2.1 , it's not for nothing.

Any monk that is good is capable of as much uptime on a boss as possible, refreshing GL in time anticipating a fight mechanic, applying dots knowing that they will have to dodge, using shoulder tackle to get back into the fight, etc.

They are really very strong in the right hands.