"You pull, you tank" is a bad mentality

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

oh the ones who get the strikes are bans are part of a group dedicated to early pulling to ruin it for trains. they got their methods in finding the marks. even some S ranks got hit early as well.

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if u are trying to ruin some ones trains on purpose - its one thing, if u just running hunts with ur party - other thing. If I will gather my party and run around the world to do some huts - I will not get suspended, If I will gather a party, and strike fast all marks I see in chatlinks - I will be probably get suspended.

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

people have gotten strikes and bans for early pulling in hunts.

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For the sole reason of doing so? Not accompanied by any sort of chat drama or anything like that? Or admission they used third party programs? They were struck and/or banned for the sole crime of "attacking an overworld mob in a public instance"?

[Citation needed]

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

oh the ones who get the strikes are bans are part of a group dedicated to early pulling to ruin it for trains. they got their methods in finding the marks. even some S ranks got hit early as well.

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Oh, okay, so people brigading off-game with the explicit stated "mission" of hurting other peoples' play experience. Got it.

Pretty markedly different from "expecting someone to do the absolute minimum of their role responsibilities in a matchmade duty".

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also i can agree with the rest but nowhere does it say a dps's job is to pull nor does it say its a healers job to pull. show me where it says that please. show me where it even says they are allowed to pull ahead of the tank and bring it back. i am quite curious where in the official documentation it actually says this. it doesn't. again.

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If we agree that pulling, as a responsibility/expected action, isn't in any way described as ANYONE'S responsibility, then it means (by virtue of being an undefined behavior) anyone can do it. What is not in any way negotiable or debatable is that tank's responsibilities include getting enemies to focus on them.

If you fail to meet those standards, don't play tank. Anyone picking up the game should be able to look at the official literature, and see that that is tank's job; if they're a new DPS who never played MMOs before, maybe they go pull, with faith that you will come grab aggro because that's the bare minimum expectation that is in any way thrust upon you, so much so that it is described in the saccharine generic writeup on the marketing website for the game.

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its what the community thinks and that is split between the two ways (tanks pull or anyone can pull). However, end of it i think everyone needs to be aware of their party. Be aware of how the party might be doing. is tank stuggling, is healer struggling, is dps low. that in the end will tell you the overall picture and if a tank wants to be the only one to pull then let them. you will still finish your run regardless lol. like i know people going to agrue but end of the day. everyone pays their own sub, theres all skill levels, everyone learns at a different pace. you got the choice to either not queue or just leave the run if you don't like the mentality.

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If you're gonna retreat to the "well the community says-" excuse, I'd point out "the community" also says "anything post-ARR (or -HW, or -SB, as I stated before the only real debate is where the exact line is drawn) should be W2W by default unless the whole party agrees otherwise". But you don't wanna talk about/listen to the "community wisdom" if it says something you don't like, I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by Remolia

if u are trying to ruin some ones trains on purpose - its one thing, if u just running hunts with ur party - other thing. If I will gather my party and run around the world to do some huts - I will not get suspended, If I will gather a party, and strike fast all marks I see in chatlinks - I will be probably get suspended.

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lol you are just as bad if you just gather a party and go strike hunts. You might think it just fun but you could be messing with a upcoming train. there is content like ARR hunts and HW hunts they don't care about but most trains still scout and do stormblood, shadowbringers and endwalker stuff. if you and your party go in and kill what was scouted for a upcoming train then you no better then the people who do it on purpose. if you are found out they will for sure spread word and may end up reporting if said behavior repeats. what happens is up to the gm but given enough proof you could still be hit with a strike.

best bet is to get in with the trains and find out what they primarily target (what hunt regions, S rank SS rank etc) and run that with them. the rest run with your team.

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Originally Posted by KatiaRelanah

If you fail to meet those standards, don't play tank. Anyone picking up the game should be able to look at the official literature, and see that that is tank's job; if they're a new DPS who never played MMOs before, maybe they go pull, with faith that you will come grab aggro because that's the bare minimum expectation that is in any way thrust upon you, so much so that it is described in the saccharine generic writeup on the marketing website for the game.



If you're gonna retreat to the "well the community says-" excuse, I'd point out "the community" also says "anything post-ARR (or -HW, or -SB, as I stated before the only real debate is where the exact line is drawn) should be W2W by default unless the whole party agrees otherwise". But you don't wanna talk about/listen to the "community wisdom" if it says something you don't like, I'm sure.

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community wisdom is wrong at times i have to say. i know the W2W mentality and thats all dungeons..not just post ARR and up. since mobs don't give exp anymore it was decided to go quick, go fast, pull it all. shocked you didn't hear that in the community. also this whole thread has been mainly about what the community thinks..not what official literature says. so yes..its what the community says.

you are too literal on the literature. literature says a healers role is to heal, get rid of status ailments and thats all. yet they can dps in the game and raids are built around their dps in put. Ok so im a dancer main. its well within my skillset to pull enemies and the next mob. i don't. not my role too. im a damage dealer. my role is to deal damage and burn down the enemies as quickly as i can so the tank and party survives. like its the tanks role to keep those buggers off me and healers role to keep us all alive. nowhere in my description does it even mention that im allowed to go ahead and pull mobs ahead of a tank and bring them back.

I frankly don't care about the next mob. I been in this game long enough to see all types of players and i notice things right off. tanks who are confident and big pullers will just pop sprint and go go go and a pull, aoe aggro and move on without stopping. its the other tanks, the ones not sure or new to the role that i go..ok let me burn down this mob so we can move on. i have more often then not seen someone pull next mob and bring it back. tank is fine to pick it up usually but sometimes you get the "let me pull" tanks. they the ones you just adjust for and let them do it. maybe they like it that way. who am i to ruin their gaming experience just to make the run a little faster. i get the same amount of experience and currency end of the run anyways.

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

lol you are just as bad if you just gather a party and go strike hunts. You might think it just fun but you could be messing with a upcoming train. there is content like ARR hunts and HW hunts they don't care about but most trains still scout and do stormblood, shadowbringers and endwalker stuff. if you and your party go in and kill what was scouted for a upcoming train then you no better then the people who do it on purpose. if you are found out they will for sure spread word and may end up reporting if said behavior repeats. what happens is up to the gm but given enough proof you could still be hit with a strike.

best bet is to get in with the trains and find out what they primarily target (what hunt regions, S rank SS rank etc) and run that with them. the rest run with your team.

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Intent is a critically-important factor here, which I'm sure you're ignoring on purpose.

There's a difference between maliciously sabotaging coordinated hunts, and the scenario I said, where you pop into an instance and happen upon a hunt of your own accord and, idk, you're some really out-of-touch gamer boomer who literally has never interacted with any Hunt discords, never gone on the forums, whatever. They just see a big thing and wanna attack it.

Just because you assume the worst doesn't mean that someone is acting out of malice. Now, might they be? Absolutely. But it could be ignorance. Now you're up in arms, enraged at them "ruining the game" and you think they're reportable when they're operating entirely off of in-game rules, e.g.

- You can attack stuff in the overworld
- The only punishment if you die is being forced to respawn (or get a res)

Now there's probably stuff somewhere in the huntmaster intro dialogue where they explain "A-Rank elite marks are meant for big groups to take down", but I doubt (please feel free to prove otherwise) it at any point says "you MUST have other players present to handle these marks". They haven't done anything wrong, no matter how much it enrages you, no matter what unofficial, unendorsed community standards they've violated. And unless you can prove they were acting maliciously with discord acreencaps or something, you've got nothing to go off of.

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second post I'm not gonna quote cuz charlimit

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One might argue that at least inasmuch as "reading between the lines" of role responsibilities goes, there's far more to argue that you, as DPS, should be striving to bring together as many mobs as possible in a single place so that as many enemies are hit by your AoEs as possible, than there is to argue that tank is supposed to arbitrarily pick and choose what mobs they take aggro on or not. By maximizing your damage output, you are optimally performing as a DPS; by attacking anything at all, you're performing the bare minimum of your requirements.

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who am i to ruin their gaming experience just to make the run a little faster.

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What if all three other members of the party WANT to run faster? Additionally, what if healer KNOWS they can keep up even if tank was naked without their job stone? A bit of hyperbole in the latter case, fine, but if your standard is someone's game experience being ruined, we end up having a utilitarian conundrum here: you're now hurting three people for the sake of one, vs one for the sake of three.

And besides which, as for whether you can honestly consider a hard(er) pull being a game-ruining experience for the tank, I defer to the points brought up a year ago when this thread was actually new (I didn't even realize it was necroed lol): namely, the difference between single pulling and w2wing is basically only the difference whether tank 'should' use mits or not, and even then it's just a slight time loss in all but the most extreme cases (e.g. healer needs to GCD heal a few times more often).

Otherwise, spamming their AoE with tank stance on is all they need do in either case. They can literally do exactly the same behavior in either case.

I'm a relatively new player, but for what it's worth, I've just always thought it was both common courtesy and common sense to let the tank lead. Not just for the sake of a smooth run, but out of consideration for the tank, who may or may not be comfortable enough with a duty for wall-to-wall pulls (no matter how easy some players may find the content in question, everyone starts somewhere).

That said, I think if a tank stonewalls the party for daring to pull ahead, that's tantamount to griefing. Of course I also believe whoever pulled first should lead the mob to their tank if they do insist on running ahead, but all things being equal, everyone should cooperate as best they can.

https://media.tenor.com/2jgbEi-vCuQA...is-the-way.gif

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Originally Posted by Turnintino

I'm a relatively new player, but for what it's worth, I've just always thought it was both common courtesy and common sense to let the tank lead. Not just for the sake of a smooth run, but out of consideration for the tank, who may or may not be comfortable enough with a duty for wall-to-wall pulls (no matter how easy some players may find the content in question, everyone starts somewhere).

That said, I think if a tank stonewalls the party for daring to pull ahead, that's tantamount to griefing. Of course I also believe whoever pulled first should lead the mob to their tank if they do insist on running ahead, but all things being equal, everyone should cooperate as best they can.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

How are they getting ahead when the tank is sprinting and using closers? Is the tank stopping between packs then? Doesn’t make sense

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Can happen if they pull the mobs out of gap closer range. Like Ryu said, it's annoying and a bit silly because the tank is already using what's at their disposal to move quickly so they're obviously not taking their time. Tanks just don't have something that will zot them forward without a target like those abilities.

I rush ahead on NIN to pull everything and blink tank and another tank pulls everything off me leaving me stuck with stacks of Shihei in my inventory... >.>;

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Originally Posted by Skiros

If a DPS or healer pulls in front of you as a tank, refusing to grab aggro and watching them die (or not; sometimes the healer or DPS can survive easily) is just petty. It's basically a temper tantrum. It's an "I gotta teach them a lesson" sorta attitude that is frankly kinda cringe.

That's just my opinion! Tanks shouldn't do this!

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Temper tantrum? Nah bro I'm laughing the entire time.

Typically I wait until after the 1st boss and if they continue to pull then I ask them to not. If they continue after the 2nd boss then I just let them "tank" the third set of trash pulls while informing them of the prohibited activities article.

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Originally Posted by Denji

Temper tantrum? Nah bro I'm laughing the entire time.

Typically I wait until after the 1st boss and if they continue to pull then I ask them to not. If they continue after the 2nd boss then I just let them "tank" the third set of trash pulls while informing them of the prohibited activities article.

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thats uh quite toxic dude. while you quoting the article, you yourself are breaching it. easier to just tank it and get out of the run then bring up contacts and add them to your blacklist so you never run with them again

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Originally Posted by Turnintino

I'm a relatively new player, but for what it's worth, I've just always thought it was both common courtesy and common sense to let the tank lead. Not just for the sake of a smooth run, but out of consideration for the tank, who may or may not be comfortable enough with a duty for wall-to-wall pulls (no matter how easy some players may find the content in question, everyone starts somewhere).

That said, I think if a tank stonewalls the party for daring to pull ahead, that's tantamount to griefing. Of course I also believe whoever pulled first should lead the mob to their tank if they do insist on running ahead, but all things being equal, everyone should cooperate as best they can.

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this 100%. this is the exact type of player i love tos ee

if dps are being incredibly rude and pushing past the tank they kind of deserve it.
The tanks job isn't really to be an enabler for someone acting like a jerk

Failure is an important teacher

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Originally Posted by Nihility

if dps are being incredibly rude and pushing past the tank they kind of deserve it.
The tanks job isn't really to be an enabler for someone acting like a jerk

Failure is an important teacher

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If a tank is being incredibly rude and not going at a pace that the rest of the party is comfortable with then they kind of deserve it.
The rest of the parties job isn't really to be an enabler for someone acting like a jerk and needlessly slowing everyone down.

Failure is in an important teacher

- This isn't a hard thing to twist in any single direction to put the "blame" on any singular person in the group. It's a group game and the party is not obligated to wait for the tank to get their shit together. 2dps and a healer can kill mob packs one at a time with no tank anyway. There's literally no purpose in having a tank if they don't double pull.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

If a tank is being incredibly rude and not going at a pace that the rest of the party is comfortable with then they kind of deserve it.
The rest of the parties job isn't really to be an enabler for someone acting like a jerk and needlessly slowing everyone down.

Failure is in an important teacher

- This isn't a hard thing to twist in any single direction to put the "blame" on any singular person in the group. It's a group game and the party is not obligated to wait for the tank to get their shit together. 2dps and a healer can kill mob packs one at a time with no tank anyway. There's literally no purpose in having a tank if they don't double pull.

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problem is you didn't twist it at all, you just sound petty.
Dungeons are designed with people of all skill levels in mind, a tank that isn't comfortable and only pulling one group at a time is literally doing what the developers intended to be done and not doing anything wrong at all. In fact a new tank that pulls everything and doesn't understand proper cooldown rotations and dies will be causing far more problems than one that pulls less at a time

Not everyone is immediately at "pull everything possible" level and dps going outside their role and forcing it upon the tank is clearly in the wrong unless an agreement was made in advance

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Originally Posted by Xirean

If a tank is being incredibly rude and not going at a pace that the rest of the party is comfortable with then they kind of deserve it.
The rest of the parties job isn't really to be an enabler for someone acting like a jerk and needlessly slowing everyone down.

Failure is in an important teacher

- This isn't a hard thing to twist in any single direction to put the "blame" on any singular person in the group. It's a group game and the party is not obligated to wait for the tank to get their shit together. 2dps and a healer can kill mob packs one at a time with no tank anyway. There's literally no purpose in having a tank if they don't double pull.

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on the same coin the Tank isn't obligated to play the same as the rest of the party either, which actrually incourages letting them die. If its true for one side its true FOR BOTH period lol



Something everyone forgets noone here is obiligated to owe one party or another anything we choice rather we grant you the pleasure or not.

thats why its importent to treat people how you want to be treated, So If you kill yourself running in then yell at your tank for not saving you don't go reporting when someone does it to you period. if you want kindness and understand you are obligated to give that to the people your around, if you don't you desever whatever you get.

Honestly if I was a mod I would look at how people are treating the person, and honestly in 6/10 cases id probably ban the people who pushed the person that far. I would look at gaslighting that seems to be going on towards alot of people, and if i found people were gaslighting not only would the person be scot free and they get banned id give that person 1mil for putting up with it that far. Also I would look at how the people reporting treat others when I decide rather to listen to their report or not.

Everyone acting like it’s all about the tank in some form or another. All a tank has to do is spam their aoe. A decent tank will use cool downs and a good tank knows how to rotate their mitigations.

No matter the type of tank, it’s the healer keeping them alive. Mitigation. No mitigation. Dodge. Don’t dodge. Fail at mechanics. All on the healer. Suck it up tanks and push your aoe. Your job isn’t hard

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Originally Posted by Nihility

problem is you didn't twist it at all, you just sound petty.
Dungeons are designed with people of all skill levels in mind, a tank that isn't comfortable and only pulling one group at a time is literally doing what the developers intended to be done and not doing anything wrong at all. In fact a new tank that pulls everything and doesn't understand proper cooldown rotations and dies will be causing far more problems than one that pulls less at a time

Not everyone is immediately at "pull everything possible" level and dps going outside their role and forcing it upon the tank is clearly in the wrong unless an agreement was made in advance

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Which is why it is up to all members of the party and not a singular one. If the tank wants to go slow but the rest want to go fast and the tank doesn't then the tank is the problem. If the dps/healer pull more and only the tank has a problem with that then the tank is the problem. Everyone has a say in how the run goes and the majority opinion of that party is what matters in the moment. I've been in my fare share of parties that genuinely just wanted go slow so I pulled less as a tank because they asked and for no other reason. I was effectively outvoted and I have the ability to accept that in the moment. However, the vast majority of the parties I have encountered / heard about want the run to go at a 2 pack pull pace at minimum. There's always ways to make it go faster but that is rarely expected. Double pulls is by far the standard.

I also find your explanation of tank cooldown rotation quite odd. You don't need a single mitigation to survive single pack pulls as a tank. Thus my earlier statement of dps being able to handle it themselves. It's not even a threat. A tank not knowing "proper cooldown rotation" is really only a factor of how much work the healer will have to do. Quite frankly I'd have more respect for the tank that does double pulls but doesn't know optimized cooldown usage. At least they are actually trying.

Edit: Also if you think my earlier response sounds petty then congratulations, because that's exactly what your original statement sounds like.

double pull it is

thats not always wall to wall either. there are players with several tanks or a lvl 80+ tank and single pulling in low lvl dungeons even though they dont get any dmg

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Originally Posted by Nihility

if dps are being incredibly rude and pushing past the tank they kind of deserve it.
The tanks job isn't really to be an enabler for someone acting like a jerk

Failure is an important teacher

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Its only rood if tank asked them not to do it, or tank Obviously(low gear/low skill) not able to keep up with the task. If tank able to tank pulled pack and not doing it on purpose, in order to "teach" someone how to play - its rude. Plus saying in chat insults like "you pull - you tank" - double rude.

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Originally Posted by Asari5

double pull it is

thats not always wall to wall either. there are players with several tanks or a lvl 80+ tank and single pulling in low lvl dungeons even though they dont get any dmg

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Pretty much most dungeons after ARR have walls that mitigate more than 2 pack pulls. The whole concept of "Wall to wall" isn't that hard to begin with.

There are a few exceptions I can think of off the top of my head: Shishui, Castrum Abania, Mt. Gulg, but those dungeons are fun BECAUSE they aren't the norm and allow you to try new things and actually give healers something to heal.

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Originally Posted by Xirean

If a tank is being incredibly rude and not going at a pace that the rest of the party is comfortable with then they kind of deserve it.
The rest of the parties job isn't really to be an enabler for someone acting like a jerk and needlessly slowing everyone down.

Failure is in an important teacher

- This isn't a hard thing to twist in any single direction to put the "blame" on any singular person in the group. It's a group game and the party is not obligated to wait for the tank to get their shit together. 2dps and a healer can kill mob packs one at a time with no tank anyway. There's literally no purpose in having a tank if they don't double pull.

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its not up to the party to dictate to any other member how fast or slow a person goes. if a tank wants to go slow, adapt and go slow. if you feel your time is too precious to go the pace of one of the party then shouldn't have queued in the first place. just leave the instance, take the half hour hit and requeue. the mentality you propose is way too prominent and does nothing but turn players off from wanting to run with people. why you think trusts are added to more and more content. theres lots of people who don't want to put up with this bull mentality. theres also people i know who refuse to run dailies without a specific friend of theirs. gee i wonder why.

if the community indeed shifted this way..then its no wonder more and more use trusts to run content. far easier then dealing with bull mentality like this. Now, this thread is about a toxic tank mentality of "you pull you tank". which whatever, let the tank do that. just do your job, get the run done and move on with your day lol.

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Originally Posted by Remolia

Its only rood if tank asked them not to do it, or tank Obviously(low gear/low skill) not able to keep up with the task. If tank able to tank pulled pack and not doing it on purpose, in order to "teach" someone how to play - its rude. Plus saying in chat insults like "you pull - you tank" - double rude.

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ive noticed that not alot of people actually say something in party chat. so if a tank says nothing you really just can't assume.

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

ive noticed that not alot of people actually say something in party chat. so if a tank says nothing you really just can't assume.

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I would. If the tank doesn't object, I'd assume they're perfectly fine with it.

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

its not up to the party to dictate to any other member how fast or slow a person goes. if a tank wants to go slow, adapt and go slow. if you feel your time is too precious to go the pace of one of the party then shouldn't have queued in the first place. just leave the instance, take the half hour hit and requeue. the mentality you propose is way too prominent and does nothing but turn players off from wanting to run with people. why you think trusts are added to more and more content. theres lots of people who don't want to put up with this bull mentality. theres also people i know who refuse to run dailies without a specific friend of theirs. gee i wonder why.

if the community indeed shifted this way..then its no wonder more and more use trusts to run content. far easier then dealing with bull mentality like this. Now, this thread is about a toxic tank mentality of "you pull you tank". which whatever, let the tank do that. just do your job, get the run done and move on with your day lol.

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You're suggesting that a single individual in the party (the tank) has more say in the pace of the run than 3 other people. That is incredibly flawed. If I'm in a run with a slow tank and the rest of the party wants to go fast, then it's not really up to the tank. 3 people want to go faster, so they will. Now if I'm in a party with a tank that wants to go slow and I indicate a desire to go faster and the rest of the party wants to go slow, then I'm outvoted and speak nothing of it further. The idea that I should resign my vote due exclusively to not being the tank at a given moment is asinine. If people want to use trusts or run with friends more than solo queing then that is their choice of how to interact with the majority vote concept.

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Originally Posted by Lihtleita

skiros is this the only way you can get people to talk to you

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Whoa. Sounds like this guy is infamous. His post here is accurate about good tank behavior though.

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Originally Posted by Leifei

Whoa. Sounds like this guy is infamous. His post here is accurate about good tank behavior though.

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Eh, you know what they say about broken clocks...

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Originally Posted by Xirean

You're suggesting that a single individual in the party (the tank) has more say in the pace of the run than 3 other people. That is incredibly flawed. If I'm in a run with a slow tank and the rest of the party wants to go fast, then it's not really up to the tank. 3 people want to go faster, so they will. Now if I'm in a party with a tank that wants to go slow and I indicate a desire to go faster and the rest of the party wants to go slow, then I'm outvoted and speak nothing of it further. The idea that I should resign my vote due exclusively to not being the tank at a given moment is asinine. If people want to use trusts or run with friends more than solo queing then that is their choice of how to interact with the majority vote concept.

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again with that flawed mentality of yours. 3 people don't dictate what another does in the run. that can have negative effects just so your highness can have a faster run and be out quicker. i mean in that case, form your own party who wants to quickly get through dailies and run with them. if the community has indeed devolved to this thinking then i fear for new players. they will be taught this unfortunate way to think increasing toxic behavior while other newer players might be turned off of the game or fear running any content with other players. how this community won best community this year is beyond me when trash thinking like this exists.

seriously, anyone with this thinking, create your own static parties and run content daily with each other.

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

again with that flawed mentality of yours. 3 people don't dictate what another does in the run. that can have negative effects just so your highness can have a faster run and be out quicker. i mean in that case, form your own party who wants to quickly get through dailies and run with them. if the community has indeed devolved to this thinking then i fear for new players. they will be taught this unfortunate way to think increasing toxic behavior while other newer players might be turned off of the game or fear running any content with other players. how this community won best community this year is beyond me when trash thinking like this exists.

seriously, anyone with this thinking, create your own static parties and run content daily with each other.

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Apparently having an equal say on the pace of a run is now toxic. Who would have guessed?

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

again with that flawed mentality of yours. 3 people don't dictate what another does in the run. that can have negative effects just so your highness can have a faster run and be out quicker. i mean in that case, form your own party who wants to quickly get through dailies and run with them. if the community has indeed devolved to this thinking then i fear for new players. they will be taught this unfortunate way to think increasing toxic behavior while other newer players might be turned off of the game or fear running any content with other players. how this community won best community this year is beyond me when trash thinking like this exists.

seriously, anyone with this thinking, create your own static parties and run content daily with each other.

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From a strictly technical point of view, 3 people do dictate what the other does in the run, because they are the majority and have enough votes to kick if necessary. That's just how the game works.

I'd also object to the implication that people only go wall to wall because they want the run to end quicker. Personally, I do it because I find it more fun and engaging, where single pulls are really rather boring. Fortunately, I happen to be in the majority it seems.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

Eh, you know what they say about broken clocks...

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Haha, touche.

I remember back when 1 person used to actually dictate how the pulls went...back in ARR and HW. If any one person was not good at their job, wall to wall wasn't happening. If the tank wasn't good, the adds were going to go to DPS or they'd get burned down due to not using mitigation. If the healer wasn't good there was no way the tank was going to stay up during a heavy pull. If the DPS weren't good the healer would run out of MP before the adds were killed, resulting in a wipe. Back when adds actually hit hard and people had to learn to do their jobs...compared to now where adds don't hit as hard and oGCD heals are plentiful.

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Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

again with that flawed mentality of yours. 3 people don't dictate what another does in the run. that can have negative effects just so your highness can have a faster run and be out quicker. i mean in that case, form your own party who wants to quickly get through dailies and run with them. if the community has indeed devolved to this thinking then i fear for new players. they will be taught this unfortunate way to think increasing toxic behavior while other newer players might be turned off of the game or fear running any content with other players. how this community won best community this year is beyond me when trash thinking like this exists.

seriously, anyone with this thinking, create your own static parties and run content daily with each other.

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And the opposite of that is 1 person shouldn’t dictate what 3 people do. That individual should form their own party or run with trusts. In fact, trusts makes more sense than to hold back 3 others because you can’t spam your aoe on 2 packs instead of 1

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Originally Posted by Xirean

Apparently having an equal say on the pace of a run is now toxic. Who would have guessed?

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It is. If you force your pacing on someone that can't keep up to it. It's possible for better players to scale down at will, but not possible for less experienced players to scale up at will.

With time maybe, but it's not by forcing him with a passive agressive "I aggro everything" mentality and then come complain about it on the forum you'll help him to get better. By Not wanting to let him play at the lvl he is confortable with, you're the problem, even if you're 3 problems in the team. It's about being a decent person, and you're failing at that. Now, I'm not saying it's not frustrating, having a tank that single group pulls everything in a 90 dungeon is a nightmare, but that doesn't happens that much. and at worst, you lost 15 min... Oof. You can still leave and take your penality.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

It is. If you force your pacing on someone that can't keep up to it. It's possible for better players to scale down at will, but not possible for less experienced players to scale up at will.

With time maybe, but it's not by forcing him with a passive agressive "I aggro everything" mentality and then come complain about it on the forum you'll help him to get better. By Not wanting to let him play at the lvl he is confortable with, you're the problem, even if you're 3 problems in the team. It's about being a decent human being, and you're failing at that. Now, I'm not saying it's not frustrating, having a tank that single group pulls everything in a 90 dungeon is a nightmare, but that doesn't happens that much. and at worst, you lost 15 min... Oof. You can still leave and take your penality.

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Or the Majority can vote to kick the weak link. Dungeons aren't hard enough that being down 1 player, regardless of role, is a make or break if the other 3 are skilled enough.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

It is. If you force your pacing on someone that can't keep up to it. It's possible for better players to scale down at will, but not possible for less experienced players to scale up at will.

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It’s entirely possible those “better players” are capable of helping the lesser player to participate at a higher level via higher dps to kill the pull quicker, and heals to keep the party alive.

It’s dungeons. Not even midcore content. Trash pulls. It really doesn’t take much to play at a “higher level” than single pulling.

But ok, let’s never test ourselves. Let’s not become better players through experience.

Decent human being… lol. As if how you run a dungeon dictates what kind of person you are.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

But ok, let’s never test ourselves. Let’s not become better players through experience.

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It's up to them, not to you. When and how they want to progress, you have no say in it. If that's a problem with you, you're really self-centered.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

It's up to them, not to you. When and how they want to progress, you have no say in it. If that's a problem with you, you're really self-centered.

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Self centred is 1 person being prioritized over the other 3. Self is singular. So is the number 1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

It's up to them, not to you. When and how they want to progress, you have no say in it. If that's a problem with you, you're really self-centered.

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There's a reason vote kick requires majority of the people to agree.
It's up to the entire group to dictate the pace. Unless you play with trusts, those will only follow you and act after you.
If you go into group content, with other people, you are expected to pull your weight. If you want to /walk through a dungeon, get FC or friends to do that with you. DF is for finding other people who want to clear a duty without needing to find a party in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Kolaina

Self centred is 1 person being prioritized over the other 3. Self is singular. So is the number 1

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lol. That's the worst argument I've heard in a long time. self-centered means that only your interest matter, and you don't care about the ones of others. The fact you're 3 people self-centered that can't understand that the 4th one may not be able to do better just make you 3 self-centered people.

Also, as some other people said, just votekick them if it's problem to you. Because from what you guys wrote on the previous few pages, your problem is that people don't play like you want them to play. The 3 against 1 looks just like an excuse.

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Originally Posted by Miracle_Diva

There's a reason vote kick requires majority of the people to agree.
It's up to the entire group to dictate the pace. Unless you play with trusts, those will only follow you and act after you.
If you go into group content, with other people, you are expected to pull your weight. If you want to /walk through a dungeon, get FC or friends to do that with you. DF is for finding other people who want to clear a duty without needing to find a party in the first place.

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I agree with that. As long as the person is ABLE to play at that level. Walk through a dungeon is a bad example, because that's willingly making people lose their time. On the other hand, pulling small pack can be a lack of skill, and that, you can't blame a player for that. Deal with it or votekick him, but don't come on the forum saying those people are a problem, because that's basically saying "Everyone with a lesser skill lvl than mine shouldn't play."