Yoshi P to Mr.Happy "Heal DPS is not mandatory and no expectation for Healer to DPS!"

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

It's simple. You either have to accept and tolerate that there is this one rule, that falls under the gray line of different play style, and can be enforced at any given time without any punishment or consequences. Or you have to start doing something about that.

In other words, if someone wants to kick the healer for not dps'ing, dismiss that healer, but make sure you're dismissing that dps as well if he/she isn't even close to the damage output they should be doing.

There should be no excuses anymore regardless what job/role someone is playing. Everybody entering the DF/RF/PF should be treated the same. Maybe after we did a 3 month witch hunt, punishing every dps that doesn't perform in DF, the same as they would in a static, we can return to being civil.

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This! So much this... +1

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

To oversimplify, you (as well as the others) are cherrypicking.

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Oh. My. Gods. I love you. <33333

Laughing is good for the soul and body.

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Originally Posted by Khaoticsuccubus

Except, it isn't. The difference being. I don't need them in PotD. I can legit do everything on my own. In a dungeon or raid one can't do that. Run off to solo pulls and you'll just die.

Overwatch would be a VERY poor example. Overwatch is a competitive pvp game. They have to do both with that character or you'll likely lose the match.

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Good thing they're getting rid of accuracy. Maybe it'll help some people actually getting the point.

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

To oversimplify, you (as well as the others) are cherrypicking.

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How are you not cherry picking?
You are using implications like they are fact. :B
You are trying to compare Yoshi-P's implications against the concrete words of the GM, imply they have the same implications and gravity.
You are trying to assert that there is some kind of implied agreement every time a person queues for the DF.
You imply that the difference between Casual and Hardcore gameplay is the ability to not have to contribute fully to a run.
What actual facts have you contributed to this argument?

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Originally Posted by TamurilRains

I hope both the pot and the kettle are dealing damage too! XD

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So long as they both give an honest effort, I am happy!

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Originally Posted by Abriael

The problem is that you don't seem to be aware that the childish part isn't really the gloating, but the attitude you and others describe and support in what is ultimately a game.

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My only point in this whole discussion is I want people to try, try your best to contribute what you can if you have the tools I want you to use them, if me and the rest of the party are all in agreement that a refusal to use the tools of your job (in this case the DPS spells) is a detriment to our decided strategy then I would vote to kick you and in the terms of service I am allowed to do so,

I don't think not wanting to play with people who are Refusing to contribute more than a very basic minimum is a bad attitude, I do not enjoy mediocrity especially when teammates are expressing a desire for someone to do more.

And mind you, if within a party my opinion is the minority I have no problem letting things continue as that would be the decided strategy of the majority of the party.

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

It's simple. You either have to accept and tolerate that there is this one rule, that falls under the gray line of different play style, and can be enforced at any given time without any punishment or consequences. Or you have to start doing something about that.

In other words, if someone wants to kick the healer for not dps'ing, dismiss that healer, but make sure you're dismissing that dps as well if he/she isn't even close to the damage output they should be doing.

There should be no excuses anymore regardless what job/role someone is playing. Everybody entering the DF/RF/PF should be treated the same. Maybe after we did a 3 month witch hunt, punishing every dps that doesn't perform in DF, the same as they would in a static, we can return to being civil.

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There should be a thread on every single job and which "failures to play optimally" the community agrees are sufficient reason to kick them. As you say, perhaps this could hasten a return to civility and realistic expectation, once everyone not playing a particular job weighed in how that job should be played optimally, under all circumstances.

Pretty sure a good chunk of the NIN, BRD and DRG I have played with are going to be in big trouble if said reqs ever get published.

EDIT - if a dmg parser ever becomes part of the official UI...look out. DPS will be living in a whole new era of "you suck" accountability.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

It's sad you don't value your own time or the time of others.

Setting that aside, yeah, I'll take a healer that dps's and we wipe a time or 2 over one that heals flawlessly with 0 dps basically every time. I do not value your capability to fill a bar every 15 seconds particularly highly. If for no other reason than at least the healer who does damage is actually putting forth an effort which is something I do value.

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I value my time enough to notice a lost cause when I see one, I'm bored now. Enjoy your God complex.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

You are trying to compare Yoshi-P's implications against the concrete words of the GM, imply they have the same implications and gravity.

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This is the moment where you confirm that you are completely incapable of comprehending reality. To claim that a GM's statement takes precedence over the literal game director's statement... whew buddy.

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/...-expecting.jpg

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Originally Posted by lulunami

Snip!

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Come on! Forum Fantasy is all we have until Stormblood drops.

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

This is the moment where you confirm that you are completely incapable of comprehending reality. To claim that a GM's statement takes precedence over the literal game director's statement... whew buddy.

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One is quoting rules and the other is stating an opinion.

Rules > Opinion no matter who's Opinion that is, if his Opinion is so powerful why is it not within the rules?

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Originally Posted by TamurilRains

I value my time enough to notice a lost cause when I see one, I'm bored now. Enjoy your God complex.

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Lmao. Me: "I don't feel compelled to carry someone through a dungeon who could be afk for 90% of it and nobody would notice."

You: "Get a load of Goddy McGodface over here, thinks they're such a badass because they expect people who willfully enter a group scenario to push some buttons!"

Guilty, I guess?

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

To oversimplify, you (as well as the others) are cherrypicking.

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Eh, not really. The current argument in discussion is whether or not you can kick a Healer for not DPS'ing. A GM has stated that kicking for a difference in play style is a legitimate reason. Healers DPS'ing or not DPS'ing are different play styles. The context of the image is in response to the lack of a difference in play style option in the kick menu so we aren't ignoring it as it should already be included in the context. I don't see how we are cherry picking by using this. It is a rather straight forward official statement.

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

My only point in this whole discussion is I want people to try, try your best to contribute what you can if you have the tools I want you to use them, if me and the rest of the party are all in agreement that a refusal to use the tools of your job (in this case the DPS spells) is a detriment to our decided strategy then I would vote to kick you and in the terms of service I am allowed to do so,

I don't think not wanting to play with people who are Refusing to contribute more than a very basic minimum is a bad attitude, I do not enjoy mediocrity especially when teammates are expressing a desire for someone to do more.

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If you do not enjoy mediocrity, then stay away from random matching, besides the fact that this kind of elitist attitude is absolutely ridiculous in 99% of the content of this game, which defining "relaxed" is an euphemism.

I do not enjoy being mediocre, so I always give my personal best, but one thing is for sure: If I see a DPS initiate a vote to kick a healer because he or she is focusing on healing, not only I'll decline, but I'll immediately initiate a vote kick for that DPS. They're a lot easier to replace anyway (and it'll only get easier with Stormblood), and this kind of crappy attitude definitely qualifies as "difference of playstyle."

Haven't read any of the thread yet, but I will go back and read it.


Lazy player argument.

Every player should try and spend every gcd on a skill useful for the group.


The content design in this game doesn't require healing fulltime, there will be healing downtime.



Keeping your party safe should be a very high priority for a healer.
But, after that there's nothing else to do but spend those gcd's on damage.

If we compare healers and other classes...
A healer who only has to heal every 6~10 seconds and refuses to do damage in the meantime is equivalanet to another class using a skill every 3rd or 4th gcd.

This is not parity.
This is laziness.




A quote on that subject.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Yesterday I did some testing on how it really is like to only heal in expert roulette, which I think is a good example because it's content probably ran by majority of player base this discussion is relevant to.

I queued to expert roulette as WHM and we got Xelpathol. In addition to me, the party consisted of a WAR who had never tanked the dungeon before (no endgame experience as WAR), a BLM (his Savage job, currently on A11S progression), and a DRG (no endgame experience as DRG). So quite a random party composition with people more or less familiar with their roles in that dungeon.

The WAR pulled as much as he could at the time (not knowing the dungeon as tank he failed this a couple of times) and I would only use my healing abilities. This was the result, my every single heal cast for the whole 21 min dungeon run:

- Regen x24
- Medica II x16
- Asylum x7
- Assize x4
- Cure II x5 (between pulls, not during them)
- Tetra x4

So in addition to Medica II, the only thing I actually had to cast in the whole dungeon was Cure II, which I did a total of 5 times (between pulls, not during them). Everything else was instant cast abilities. I also used Eye for an Eye on tank and sometimes Esuna, and I cast stoneskin on everyone between pulls.

Even with this little use of healing, my overheal was 35,9%, so the actual healing requirements for this dungeon are even lower. I was active 17% of the whole dungeon while the rest of my group members were active 72-77% of the dungeon.

This is a perfect example of the low healing requirements in the game and how it causes a huge activity difference between a healer who doesn't DPS and their group members. On that run I did not contribute nearly as much as my group members, in fact I was using /icam and doing /mandervilledance while they were actually making an effort. If it would have been the tank or a DD only being active 17% of the time and dancing and idling for the rest, they would have been removed from the party, but for me, some people would actually argue I was doing just fine.

I took a video of the whole run and uploaded it in case someone's interested. This is the final boss fight, during which the only things I actually cast were 3 Medica IIs. Other than that, I used Regen (4), Assize (2) and Asylum (2). Here's the direct link to the fight: https://youtu.be/jBgMe5uHPsE?t=17m17s

TLDR: Not DPSing as a healer means you're just being carried by your group members for over 80% of the dungeon time.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Snip!

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I think the vast majority of players are completely fine with people doing their "personal best."

I just don't believe for a moment that someone is doing their personal best if they pop a regen on the tank and then proceed to do the Vanu dance until all of the trash is dead.

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

This is the moment where you confirm that you are completely incapable of comprehending reality. To claim that a GM's statement takes precedence over the literal game director's statement... whew buddy.

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More personal attacks. =w=

Yoshi-P's statement is about Healer DPS not being mandatory, while the GM is stating that it is not against the game's rules to vote kick someone for difference in gameplay.
You're trying to use the implication that because Yoshi-P says it's not mandatory that we, as a group, can't vote kick someone because of it, which is a very loose arguement.
No where in Yoshi-P's statement does it say that you can't vote kick people for for differences in gameplay. Further more, it is not Yoshi-P's job to interpret and act on the game's rules, that's the GM's. Hell, Yoshi-P probably doesn't have any say on the ToS.

I have to agree with lulunami's use of Einstein's quote at this point, you're hopeless. ♥

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Originally Posted by Abriael

Snip "

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I edited my original post before you quoted that may change your opinion, please take a moment to read what was added
"And mind you, if within a party my opinion is the minority I have no problem letting things continue as that would be the decided strategy of the majority of the party."

My argument is more for the majority of the groups ideal strategy to take place, I have strong opinions on what that strategy should involve but the same way I think that One healers opinion isn't greater than the 3/7 other people they are paying with my opinion is also not greater than the 3/7 other people I would be playing with, If everyone agrees the healer can afk between heals than If I don't like it I should leave.
It's a democracy not a dictatorship that's why we have a VOTE to kick.

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Originally Posted by missybee

I think the vast majority of players are completely fine with people doing their "personal best."

I just don't believe for a moment that someone is doing their personal best if they pop a regen on the tank and then proceed to do the Vanu dance until all of the trash is dead.

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Unless the content is extramely difficult (and if it is, I don't go with randoms), I don't make it my business to judge the people randomly matched with me as long as I am doing my best and the content is being completed.

I don't know people's circumstances. For what I know, they could have an impairment, or quite simply they could jus be another dude who worked 14 hours (which is something I intimately understand) and at long last is just taking it easy playing an easy role in an easy game.

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

One is quoting rules and the other is stating an opinion.

Rules > Opinion no matter who's Opinion that is, if his Opinion is so powerful why is it not within the rules?

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because we are not in real life .P and its just a game for entertainment ^^

and like with any other sorts of entertainment/fun , its just plain and simple a time waste.

Ur basicly wasting your time , posting something that has 0% impact in your life :P

and if ur 5min longer in a dungeon will not change ur life ^^

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Originally Posted by Abriael

I don't know people's circumstances. For what I know, they could have an impairment, or quite simply they could be another dude that worked 14 hours (which is something I intimately understand) and at long last is just taking it easy playing an easy role in an easy game.

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That is definitely your prerogative, but not everyone is going to want to deal with that.

There isn't a right or a wrong answer in this regard. Some people will be okay with a party member who isn't playing to the fullest of their ability, and some will not. Whether the vote kick passes or not, it is a democratic procedure and as such, is about as fair as SE can make it.

I just realized the drama unfolding with this kitti person. This is super entertaining. :x

People get so salty when it comes to healer DPS. I'll never understand why. Those in the pro-healer DPS camp just support your growth and progress as a player. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Either way though. /popcorn

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Originally Posted by missybee

There isn't a right or a wrong answer in this regard. Some people will be okay with a party member who isn't playing to the fullest of their ability, and some will not. Whether the vote kick passes or not, it is a democratic procedure and as such, is about as fair as SE can make it.

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No. There is no "right" or "wrong." There's a positive attitude from decent people who are aware that we're playing a game, and there's a crappy attitude from elitists that appear to think they're in the military.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

because we are not in real life .P and its just a game for entertainment ^^

and like with any other sorts of entertainment/fun , its just plain and simple a time waste.

Ur basicly wasting your time , posting something that has 0% impact in your life :P

and if ur 5min longer in a dungeon will not change ur life ^^

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...Haven't you been posting in this thread, thus "basicly wasting your time , posting something that has 0% impact in your life :P" ?

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Originally Posted by Abriael

No. There is no "right" or "wrong." There's a good attitude from decent people who are aware that we're playing a game, and there's a crappy attitude from elitist that appear to think they're in the military.

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The "Good Attitude" of allowing people to coast and the "Crappy Attitude" of not allowing people to coast. >w>

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Originally Posted by Abriael

No. There is no "right" or "wrong." There's a good attitude from decent people who are aware that we're playing a game, and there's a crappy attitude from elitist that appear to think they're in the military.

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Expecting people to put forth a modicum of effort doesn't make you an elitist.

What is so hard on casting some Stones or some DoTs once in a while? Are people allergic to DPS skills? Does it goes against your personal belief to not hurt fantasy creatures? Seriously, Cleric Stancing isn't a thing anymore, there is no more excuse.

Also, it doesnt matter what Yoshi-P says, if it is more optimal gameplay for healers to DPS then that is what will matter. They had NINs tanking on FFXI and it was never "intended" but it worked better so it was what was used. If you want to be a healer that dont DPS ok. Just don't think you're a good healer or player or get mad that people that want a good performance for raid doesnt want you.

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Originally Posted by Khaoticsuccubus

Look, the fact of the matter is, a healer's only job is to heal. The ONLY reason they even have dmg spells is to be able to solo, something very important in today's mmo world.

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Actually, I'm pretty sure most "solo" content has NPCs that fight and stuff, so if offensive spells were there just for that then... that's kind of surprising. Hall of the Novice (or whatever), heck and even the CNJ storyline basically tell you that you should DPS during downtime. People have even said that boss fights and such have set mechanics, unless you push too much. With all this information, it literally does not make sense that healers shouldn't DPS. But oh well. I'll just be a healer so that I don't come across lazy healers :P

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

snip

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My opinion isn't focused around dungeons alone, I am not sure if this is obvious but the strength at which I feel the need to hold to the conviction of my opinions most certainly does vary based on how much of an inconvenience things are to me and you are correct in a dungeon this problem isn't one that annoys me as much as if it was in an extreme trial, It might also completely vary on the people I am with, if the healer casts regen and then proceeds to do a persistent emote while waiting to heal would annoy me significantly more for their lack of contribution that someone who is New so they want to focus more on mechanics and observing since they are unprepared.
Not everything is black and white and will vary on a case by case situation I just don't like people who upon request refuse to contribute despite the obvious benefits to the group and that probably comes down to more me not liking them as a person than anything else.

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Originally Posted by missybee

Expecting people to put forth a modicum of effort doesn't make you an elitist.

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A "modicum of effort" has different definitions for different people in different circumstances. What can be easy as pie for me, can be difficult for others. I don't go out of my way to assume that the one I have in front of me has the experience, hand-eye coordination, physical ability or simply the energy to do more than his job. And most content in this game is designed so that if everyone does "his job" the party will be successful.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

I don't know people's circumstances. For what I know, they could have an impairment, or quite simply they could jus be another dude who worked 14 hours (which is something I intimately understand) and at long last is just taking it easy playing an easy role in an easy game.

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I'd say most of us actually don't have problems with those people. The ones I'm having issues with are those who not only refuse to try contributing dps while healing but also go on crusades claiming not dpsing is the correct way to play healers, which is just outright wrong and stupid. Worse if they're "teaching" new players about it that way. It's as ridiculous as telling a new blm that it's fine to be an ice mage in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

A "modicum of effort" has different definitions for different people in different circumstances. What can be easy as pie for me, can be difficult for others. I don't go out of my way to assume that the one I have in front of me has the experience, hand-eye coordination, physical ability or simply the energy to do more than his job. And most content in this game is designed so that if everyone does "his job" the party will be successful.

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I get what you are saying, and you genuinely seem like a kind and sympathetic person, but at the end of the day these are group activities. The majority (or two out of four in the case of light parties) ends up with the power to dictate what is and is not acceptable in a given run.

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Originally Posted by TheRealMadruck

Now, even if that was a paraphrase(which to anyone who views the video that it isn't) Yoshi P made it clear that if a person plays a healer....the game has been designed it for Healer DPS to be a OPTIONAL CHOICE! Not a required one.

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I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion, here. My interpretation of Yoshi P's response is that he's stating, as a developer, that content isn't designed in such a way as to require Healer classes to deal damage. In other words, if someone is a new player, feeling uncertain about their tank, etc., worry not - you're not going to cause a wipe if you focus on keeping everyone alive to the exclusion of all else.

That does not, however, mean it is optional in the eyes of the community, nor should it be. The rationale for Healer classes contributing damage almost never arises out of a concern for being able to clear content - it arises out of a desire for everyone to contribute equally, to give a sh*t. Whether Yoshi P agrees with that or not is utterly irrelevant. He can comfort and defend all the would-be healers out there - it simply doesn't matter. The community is what determines appropriate behaviour, not the developers. And speaking for myself, as a member of the community, I expect everyone to care. I expect everyone to try. For Healer classes, that means throwing in some damage here or there when everyone's topped off and there's nothing else demanding their attention. If that never happens? If the fight is chaotic, or a particular healer is under-geared, or the DD are AoE magnets? No worries on my part.

My problem is with laziness. And I don't give a rat's ass if Yoshi P designed the game around Healer classes dealing damage, or around Healer classes being expected to deal damage, or around coddling lazy players - I'm still not going to tolerate excessive amounts of it in my party companions.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

A "modicum of effort" has different definitions for different people in different circumstances. What can be easy as pie for me, can be difficult for others. I don't go out of my way to assume that the one I have in front of me has the experience, hand-eye coordination, physical ability or simply the energy to do more than his job. And most content in this game is designed so that if everyone does "his job" the party will be successful.

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I believe in this circumstance a "modicum of effort" is trying, no one is expecting a set amount of required DPS, but effort in trying at all is where the expectation begins.

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Originally Posted by Miyha

I just realized the drama unfolding with this kitti person. This is super entertaining. :x

People get so salty when it comes to healer DPS. I'll never understand why. Those in the pro-healer DPS camp just support your growth and progress as a player. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Either way though. /popcorn

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I know right? I am only participating because I find debating to be fun. Of course I have my own viewpoint and stance, but I probably wouldn't be posting if I didn't find it so enjoyable. Also gives me something to do while waiting for the bus.

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

I believe in this circumstance a "modicum of effort" is trying, no one is expecting a set amount of required DPS, but effort in trying at all is where the expectation begins.

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For many, trying equates to doing their job. In the case of a healer, healing. This game is designed so that in 99% of the content, that is plenty.

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Originally Posted by missybee

Come on! Forum Fantasy is all we have until Stormblood drops.

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This person knows what's up!

En Garde!

Your horn vs my rapier! Forum Style!

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Originally Posted by missybee

I think the vast majority of players are completely fine with people doing their "personal best."

I just don't believe for a moment that someone is doing their personal best if they pop a regen on the tank and then proceed to do the Vanu dance until all of the trash is dead.

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I would posit that the Vanu dance is VERY important to the success of the team however, it should REALLY be the Manderville dance as any true healer would know. ^_^

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

Lazy player argument.

Every player should try and spend every gcd on a skill useful for the group.


The content design in this game doesn't require healing fulltime, there will be healing downtime.



Keeping your party safe should be a very high priority for a healer.
But, after that there's nothing else to do but spend those gcd's on damage.

If we compare healers and other classes...
A healer who only has to heal every 6~10 seconds and refuses to do damage in the meantime is equivalanet to another class using a skill every 3rd or 4th gcd.

This is not parity.
This is laziness.

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Not really? As in the first example you complete the duty just fine. Whereas in the 2nd you don't. That's the difference between performing your actual role and not. Healers dpsing is performing outside their role, above and beyond 100%. That's to be expected in bleeding edge stuff like savage but, no, not for the other 99% of this game lol.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

For many, trying equates to doing their job. In the case of a healer, healing. This game is designed so that in 99% of the content, that is plenty.

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I think people would be hard-pressed to defend this definition of "trying".

Tanks and damage-dealing classes are expected to stay on top of their GCD throughout combat. They're expected to not just auto-attack, but engage in actions, handle positioning, etc. That involves vastly more effort than focusing on healing alone. I could twiddle my thumbs and watch Netflix for 80% of an average Roulette dungeon, as a Healer class, while similar behaviour as a tank or DD would cause a wipe and/or get me kicked in a heartbeat.

So, what, are the "many" people you reference cool with one role being allowed to half-ass its way through content while the other two roles need to expend constant effort?

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Originally Posted by Khaoticsuccubus

Not really? As in the first example you complete the duty just fine. Whereas in the 2nd you don't. That's the difference between performing your actual role and not. Healers dpsing is performing outside their role, above and beyond 100%. That's to be expected in bleeding edge stuff like savage but, no, not for the other 99% of this game lol.

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I don't think it's appropriate to just focus on content completion. FFXIV's content, outside of Savage / Extreme fights, is often so easy that a trained team of monkeys could pull off a win. Players should primarily be judged on whether or not they perform their role adequately; a secondary judgment should take into account whether or not they really seemed to try. For DD, that might be whether they made an effort to avoid AoE effects, or just sat mindlessly damaging the boss. For tanks, it might be whether they let adds beat on the healer / DD players, or if they appropriately snapped them up and minimized damage. For healers, it's throwing in a bit of damage. None of these behaviours are essential outside of the hardest content, but players who display an utter lack of desire to bother with these non-essential responsibilities deserve every bit of criticism they get.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Boosting my ego

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Ok I'll bite one more time.

You don't feel compelled to carry someone through a dungeon, but you join the DF, where quite a few people expect to be carried and/or have different ways of playing. See the problem? You're expecting perfection and a style of play from people you don't know and people who basically don't owe you a damn thing. If they are flat out afking and not doing their job properly? Fine vote kick them. But if the run is going smoothly then why get so damn picky about shaving off a few seconds each fight? You say that you shouldn't have to make your own group to get the runs you want, that is called being entitled. You tell me I should make my own group instead, I don't have to because I will play with anyone, yes even someone like yourself.

Bottom line; stop playing with random people if it upsets you so much. I'd be more concerned with the people who can't heal, or tanks who can't hold threat if I were you.

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Originally Posted by Abriael

For many, trying equates to doing their job. In the case of a healer, healing. This game is designed so that in 99% of the content, that is plenty.

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Sorry i should have said effort above the bare minimum, I think doing the actions required to your role is the bare minimum.