Please do not lock Jobs to the Weapon Class that unlocks them.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

By having some Jobs that can have more allowed classes than other Jobs, you create a built-in mathematical imbalance that would have to be compensated for. Otherwise, you get Jobs that are more versatile than others, making them more valuable in a party (case in point RDM/WHM vs. WHM/BLM in FFXI). The Development Team would have to balance that out, since they imposed the arbitrary limit in the first place, and implied that any combination that they dictated should be effective at something.

But if there are no restrictions, the Development Team does not have to (though they may still want to) balance the various combinations out, because they never officially endorsed any particular one. If you decide to play a Lancer with a Paladin Job, it's completely OK for you to suck. SE probably won't do anything to make you comparable to a Gladiator with the same Paladin Job.

If however, SE says you are allowed to play Gladiator, Marauder, and Lancer with the Paladin Job, now they have to make sure that all three combinations are balanced because they dictated it.

That's why restrictions and dictates cause MORE balance issues than letting players decide what should and should not be combined.

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i can say the same thing about letting everyone be everyone they have to balance every job for every class and make sure everything is well balance overall vs just balance it for 1-2class

I'm going to make another Monster Hunter analogy here considering I think it actually fits.

In Monster Hunter Tri, without a doubt the Lance out damages every other weapon, allows users to block almost any block-able attack and even gives them a counter move. There are videos out there of people soloing Deviljoe with it easily. A lot of the people who want to kill things fastest use groups of all Lancers. But in light of this you will still see people using every weapon class in the game (even Sword and Shield with it's low damage and reach) regularly.

The reason for this is that each weapon is fun to use and has it's own distinct play style. Sword and Shield despite having low damage and reach offers high mobility as well as the ability to block. Great Swords while slow and cumbersome have a charge up move that can deal massive damage and they can block and roll. Hammers can stun monsters and deal respectable damage but have no block ability. I could go on but I'll stop there. When people ask on MH boards "What's the best weapon?" the general response is: There is no best weapon, it depends on the situation and your play style.

The point is there will ALWAYS be a class or a group of classes that people consider "best". There is no way around this. The way to get people to play and invite other classes though is to make them viable in a unique way and of course fun to play. As long as each job has a purpose and something it does well then there is no "best" for all situations. That's what it sounds like they're trying to do with the job system, unique party roles for each job.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

By having some Jobs that can have more allowed classes than other Jobs, you create a built-in mathematical imbalance that would have to be compensated for. Otherwise, you get Jobs that are more versatile than others, making them more valuable in a party (case in point RDM/WHM vs. WHM/BLM in FFXI). The Development Team would have to balance that out, since they imposed the arbitrary limit in the first place, and implied that any combination that they dictated should be effective at something.

But if there are no restrictions, the Development Team does not have to (though they may still want to) balance the various combinations out, because they never officially endorsed any particular one. If you decide to play a Lancer with a Paladin Job, it's completely OK for you to suck. SE probably won't do anything to make you comparable to a Gladiator with the same Paladin Job.

If however, SE says you are allowed to play Gladiator, Marauder, and Lancer with the Paladin Job, now they have to make sure that all three combinations are balanced because they dictated it.

That's why restrictions and dictates cause MORE balance issues than letting players decide what should and should not be combined.

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This exactly.

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

i can say the same thing about letting everyone be everyone they have to balance every job for every class and make sure everything is well balance overall vs just balance it for 1-2class

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Except that SE is not obligated to make every Job balanced with every Class if they don't dictate restrictions. SE does not have to maintain the illusion of balance between Archer-Paladin, Pugilist-Paladin, Lancer-Paladin, Marauder-Paladin, and Gladiator-Paladin. Archer-Paladin can totally suck compared to Gladiator-Paladin and SE wouldn't have to do anything about it.

That's because the player community would pretty much give a collective "Duh, of course! What else did you expect??". That would also hold true of Marauder-Paladin vs. Gladiator-Paladin. One may edge out the other in some aspect or another, but SE does not have to keep them balanced, because they let you have the entire gamut of possibilities for Paladin ... both great and not-so great.

Once SE states there can only be Marauder-Paladins & Gladiator-Paladins, they MUST keep the two balanced because their statement/restriction implies one should be as effective as the other. If one becomes more effective as a Paladin than the other, it invalidates the entire premise of having the restriction in the first place (i.e. to prevent not-so-great Class-Job combinations). So SE would have to constantly keep the two balanced.

Now multiply that constant balancing act across all the SE restricted Class-Jobs combinations ... versus ... having no restrictions and only nerfing two or three overpowered Class-Job combinations.

One may disagree with the policy of nerfing, but it is far easier and more efficient than re-balancing entire subsets of classes and jobs whenever a new Job or Class or Ability is introduced.

Yeah, I want to be a Red Mage again and still have the option to switch between swords and staves depending on what playstyle I feel like at the time. I know I switched them around often in XI, especially if I was going to be aiding in the melee (sword) or just standing back nuking/healing (staff).

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Except that SE is not obligated to make every Job balanced with every Class if they don't dictate restrictions. SE does not have to maintain the illusion of balance between Archer-Paladin, Pugilist-Paladin, Lancer-Paladin, Marauder-Paladin, and Gladiator-Paladin. Archer-Paladin can totally suck compared to Gladiator-Paladin and SE wouldn't have to do anything about it.

That's because the player community would pretty much give a collective "Duh, of course! What else did you expect??". That would also hold true of Marauder-Paladin vs. Gladiator-Paladin. One may edge out the other in some aspect or another, but SE does not have to keep them balanced, because they let you have the entire gamut of possibilities for Paladin ... both great and not-so great.

Once SE states there can only be Marauder-Paladins & Gladiator-Paladins, they MUST keep the two balanced because their statement/restriction implies one should be as effective as the other. If one becomes more effective as a Paladin than the other, it invalidates the entire premise of having the restriction in the first place (i.e. to prevent not-so-great Class-Job combinations). So SE would have to constantly keep the two balanced.

Now multiply that constant balancing act across all the SE restricted Class-Jobs combinations ... versus ... having no restrictions and only nerfing two or three overpowered Class-Job combinations.

One may disagree with the policy of nerfing, but it is far easier and more efficient than re-balancing entire subsets of classes and jobs whenever a new Job or Class or Ability is introduced.

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Sorel you really should just re-write my first post for me xD

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Except that SE is not obligated to make every Job balanced with every Class if they don't dictate restrictions. SE does not have to maintain the illusion of balance between Archer-Paladin, Pugilist-Paladin, Lancer-Paladin, Marauder-Paladin, and Gladiator-Paladin. Archer-Paladin can totally suck compared to Gladiator-Paladin and SE wouldn't have to do anything about it.

That's because the player community would pretty much give a collective "Duh, of course! What else did you expect??". That would also hold true of Marauder-Paladin vs. Gladiator-Paladin. One may edge out the other in some aspect or another, but SE does not have to keep them balanced, because they let you have the entire gamut of possibilities for Paladin ... both great and not-so great.

Once SE states there can only be Marauder-Paladins & Gladiator-Paladins, they MUST keep the two balanced because their statement/restriction implies one should be as effective as the other. If one becomes more effective as a Paladin than the other, it invalidates the entire premise of having the restriction in the first place (i.e. to prevent not-so-great Class-Job combinations). So SE would have to constantly keep the two balanced.

Now multiply that constant balancing act across all the SE restricted Class-Jobs combinations ... versus ... having no restrictions and only nerfing two or three overpowered Class-Job combinations.

One may disagree with the policy of nerfing, but it is far easier and more efficient than re-balancing entire subsets of classes and jobs whenever a new Job or Class or Ability is introduced.

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I can get on-board with this argument. I think I'm like Cairdeas ... I think more in terms of logic and structure than in terms of people's perceptions (which I just don't get :confused: )

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Originally Posted by Amineri

I can get on-board with this argument. I think I'm like Cairdeas ... I think more in terms of logic and structure than in terms of people's perceptions (which I just don't get :confused: )

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it's about realism Final Fantasy have some type of realism and rule they follow yes each game have it own rule and some even break rules made from other Final fantasy but the main point SE is getting with ffxiv is realism. Look how much work they did into the world to get realism each gear in the game you can tell what it made of.

Now how Realistic is to see a PLD without a cape or sword? some use hammer but really don't think they add hammer as a Wep in the game. How Realistic to see a Monk use a G.K?

Allow Jobs to use more wep if it fit with there job Monk= Hand to hand and staff RDM=Staff,sword Samurai= G.K,Polearm,bows PLD= Sword,Great Sword Warrior = Sword,Great Axe, one hand-axe. But don't allow everyone to use everything

Like i said before if unlocking a job is at level 30 class then i just level up 1 class to max level and each one to 30 and i have all jobs max level 50 without level up the class pass 30 even if am gimp with spell i still got enough to party with.

Get ready for major deception if you think those jobs will be this sophisticated.

I still think they'll only be a visual way (AF + some few exclusive skills/traits) to define playstyles within a class.

New classes in future expansions will prolly be what bring new weapons in.

I honestly can't WAIT for new weapon classes~!~!

weird staff engine - arcanist
pistols/rifles - musketeer
whip - flayer
scythe (war scythe as cair put it to differentiate from harvesting scythe) - dunno what to call it
clubs - enforcer
GSD - dunno
GKT - dunno
katana learning dual wield - assassin
instruments - bard

Then combine that with a job system where jobs can use multiple weapons = a very customizable system for players. Like jumping like drg with hate altering abilities? feel free to use plm, scy, gsd, GKT each with their own flavor

Red mage with enhancing magic/heals/nukes, can use sword/daggers, staves, pistols each again with their own flavor.

dark knight with their usual drains and dark magic, on swd, scy, gkt, plm

<3 love something like that, lets you play a specialized role, but on different weapons(classes) of course SE will choose what can be cross classed and what can't though, I have no problem with that

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

it's about realism Final Fantasy have some type of realism and rule they follow yes each game have it own rule and some even break rules made from other Final fantasy but the main point SE is getting with ffxiv is realism. Look how much work they did into the world to get realism each gear in the game you can tell what it made of.

Now how Realistic is to see a PLD without a cape or sword? some use hammer but really don't think they add hammer as a Wep in the game. How Realistic to see a Monk use a G.K?

Allow Jobs to use more wep if it fit with there job Monk= Hand to hand and staff RDM=Staff,sword Samurai= G.K,Polearm,bows PLD= Sword,Great Sword Warrior = Sword,Great Axe, one hand-axe. But don't allow everyone to use everything

Like i said before if unlocking a job is at level 30 class then i just level up 1 class to max level and each one to 30 and i have all jobs max level 50 without level up the class pass 30 even if am gimp with spell i still got enough to party with.

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"Realistic" How realistic is it to suddenly forget how to use a sword because you've been training with a spear for a while and mastered a special skill that teaches you how to jump into the air really high and crash on to a enemy? Not very realistic at all >.>

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Originally Posted by Zenaku

Like i said before if unlocking a job is at level 30 class then i just level up 1 class to max level and each one to 30 and i have all jobs max level 50 without level up the class pass 30 even if am gimp with spell i still got enough to party with.

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Not that SE hasn't ever introduced broken mechanics before, but this one isn't very hard to counter.

Rank 30 in class opens quest for level 1 in job
Rank 35 in class opens quest for level 2 in job
Rank 40 in class opens quest for level 3 in job
Rank 45 in class opens quest for level 4 in job
Rank 50 in class opens quest for level 5 in job

Taking your example, ranking one class to 50, and the rest to 30. You have a couple of jobs at level 5, and the rest at level 1. Better go rank the rest of your classes to be able to unlock higher levels in your other jobs!

(Presumably, each new level in a job opens up more of it's special abilities. So, playing as a level 1 job with a rank 50 class would be kinda gimp compared to level 5 job with rank 50 class.)

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Originally Posted by Amineri

Not that SE hasn't ever introduced broken mechanics before, but this one isn't very hard to counter.

Rank 30 in class opens quest for level 1 in job
Rank 35 in class opens quest for level 2 in job
Rank 40 in class opens quest for level 3 in job
Rank 45 in class opens quest for level 4 in job
Rank 50 in class opens quest for level 5 in job

Taking your example, ranking one class to 50, and the rest to 30. You have a couple of jobs at level 5, and the rest at level 1. Better go rank the rest of your classes to be able to unlock higher levels in your other jobs!

(Presumably, each new level in a job opens up more of it's special abilities. So, playing as a level 1 job with a rank 50 class would be kinda gimp compared to level 5 job with rank 50 class.)

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I could see something like this working. Though I could also see the implement a system where you earn Job Points for performing job based tasks. then once you had enough saved up you could buy an extra skill/ability for the job.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

"Realistic" How realistic is it to suddenly forget how to use a sword because you've been training with a spear for a while and mastered a special skill that teaches you how to jump into the air really high and crash on to a enemy? Not very realistic at all >.>

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How realistic is it to learn an advanced spear technique and still have access to it when you equip a sword?

A lot depends on how these new jobs are presented. I would hope the lore and the mechanics are internally consistent whichever way they implement it.

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Originally Posted by Lerris

How realistic is it to learn an advanced spear technique and still have access to it when you equip a sword?

A lot depends on how these new jobs are presented. I would hope the lore and the mechanics are internally consistent whichever way they implement it.

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Most weapons of war maneuvers learned can be borrowed or shared amongst many other weapons.

Learning to block a downward strike with the shaft of your weapon? Pole Arms, Axes, Swords, etc. can do that?

Stab a person directly into the heart? hard to do for an ax because its slashing and crushing and not piercing.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Most weapons of war maneuvers learned can be borrowed or shared amongst many other weapons.

Learning to block a downward strike with the shaft of your weapon? Pole Arms, Axes, Swords, etc. can do that?

Stab a person directly into the heart? hard to do for an ax because its slashing and crushing and not piercing.

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This is true. The armory system already covers moves that are adaptable across weapon types. The job system contains abilities that they have stated are not adaptable across jobs. Whether they're adaptable across weapon-types... that is the bigger question.

Is a dragoon's jump a mystical ability, or are they using the pole of the spear to vault themselves into the air? We don't know. Which is what undermines your realism argument.

You're making assumptions, the other side is making different assumptions, and you're not arguing from the same starting point.

It certainly is a cool idea and i would love to see it implemented, it would give people a reason to dedicate their guildmarks(pikemanship etc) to a specific weapon because they would be able to play multiple roles through the job system with one weapon.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Most weapons of war maneuvers learned can be borrowed or shared amongst many other weapons.

Learning to block a downward strike with the shaft of your weapon? Pole Arms, Axes, Swords, etc. can do that?

Stab a person directly into the heart? hard to do for an ax because its slashing and crushing and not piercing.

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Bill-type Axes have piercing :)

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Originally Posted by Amineri

Not that SE hasn't ever introduced broken mechanics before, but this one isn't very hard to counter.

Rank 30 in class opens quest for level 1 in job
Rank 35 in class opens quest for level 2 in job
Rank 40 in class opens quest for level 3 in job
Rank 45 in class opens quest for level 4 in job
Rank 50 in class opens quest for level 5 in job

Taking your example, ranking one class to 50, and the rest to 30. You have a couple of jobs at level 5, and the rest at level 1. Better go rank the rest of your classes to be able to unlock higher levels in your other jobs!

(Presumably, each new level in a job opens up more of it's special abilities. So, playing as a level 1 job with a rank 50 class would be kinda gimp compared to level 5 job with rank 50 class.)

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Someone give this Lalafell a gold medal.

I think that if the devs haven't incorporated something like this already, it may be too late to actually use it, but I like this idea.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

Someone give this Lalafell a gold medal.

I think that if the devs haven't incorporated something like this already, it may be too late to actually use it, but I like this idea.

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You quite made my day with this comment! <3 <3 I feel like I did when I got a gold star on my math homework in grade school. :D I'll try to not let it go to my head, however...

It's hard arguing with Zenaku because he mimics about 3 lines over and over and over.

Please just ignore them, as they still seem to fail to understand that you just want the ability to use the weapon and its skills, and don't really care much about how bad the combination is (JUSTLIKETHEFFXIJOBSYSTEMHMMMMMMMM??? -> Players turned that into a craphole, not SE).

Don't be a DRG just be a queen.

I'd rather have some motivation to lvl multiple jobs really. Think of FFIII that game plays completely differently depending on what jobs you choose.

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Originally Posted by Seif

I'd rather have some motivation to lvl multiple jobs really. Think of FFIII that game plays completely differently depending on what jobs you choose.

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Ah, but think of FFV that plays completely differently depending on 'how many' jobs you've chosen.

Customization is gold.

people still dont seem to get it..... any class can equip any job, but they still only have the weapon that class uses, a CON/SAM would be almost useless yes.... but there where useless combos in FFXI as well.

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Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

It's hard arguing with Zenaku because he mimics about 3 lines over and over and over.

Please just ignore them, as they still seem to fail to understand that you just want the ability to use the weapon and its skills, and don't really care much about how bad the combination is (JUSTLIKETHEFFXIJOBSYSTEMHMMMMMMMM??? -> Players turned that into a craphole, not SE).

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I don't fail to understand stop being a jack???"no reason for you to be one i understand your guys way but you can't understand the few that don't want it?" you guys just don't understand what the others are saying am not the only one in this topic which said it should not be like that. Allow jobs to wear more then one wep but not everyone in the game.

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Originally Posted by Kailea_Nagisa

people still dont seem to get it..... any class can equip any job, but they still only have the weapon that class uses, a CON/SAM would be almost useless yes.... but there where useless combos in FFXI as well.

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And you don't seem to get that it is in no way established fact, nor is it even the most sensible and simple way of implementing classes. Other people are absolutely entitled to their own opinions.

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I think your misunderstanding what they said about jobs.

Job Actions: spells and skills only the Job itself can give you like White Mage's Benediction for instance, Can only be used if your job is White Mage.

It doesn't matter what you do with your weapon at that point the White Mage is what gives you those specific actions.

Then the White Mage limits what actions you can equip from all classes. If you equip White Mage you can't equip the black magic spells Conjurer knows, Even if you are a Conjurer.

So at this point it doesn't matter if you stay Conjurer or not so why keep the limitation in place?

In the end Once you assign a Job your Job Actions, and Class Actions/Cross-Class Actions get narrowed down into only a few select choices. After that the only thing your weapon does is define stats, and define how you do damage in a fight. If you use an Axe your physical attacks will mostly be AOE. if you us a Conjurer Staff your spells will cast AOE in a circle.

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And I think once AGAIN you're pretty much trying to tell people how to interpret what SE has said, which, thus far, has been incredibly vague and ambiguous.

The white mage class unlocks new spells, yes. Does that mean it unlocks the same new spells for any class it's equipped to? No. I would argue that it augments their current repertoire of healing spells and builds off of an established base.

I fail to see how your system that ultimately creates either a bunch of redundant combinations for the sake of the almighty FREEDOM (which no one would use, it's like saying every combination in FFXI is useful) or at the other end, creates a HUGE amount of new combinations that have to be balanced, taking a massive amount of time and also soaking up the devs who could be working on other things.

Aside from the class names, this method:

http://a.yfrog.com/img638/4315/gridv.png

Is the simplest, cleanest and also most likely to be implemented. Please don't simply say 'You're looking at it wrong' because I could argue you are.

Can someone kindly explain how the job-specific equipment will work under that system now? Will white mage job-specific equipment account for all the archers/gladiators/lancers/marauders who want to be holy knights or whatever? They've already said they want to give each class very individual stat choices to aim for in the future.

I'm not saying your ideas aren't good, what I am saying is it does get me quite annoyed when, just because you've got a giant FREEDOM following on this thread you think you can pretty much go "you're wrong" to other people.

EDIT: Also, I fail to see how this system is discounted by the potential for some classes to have more specialisations. WoW (sorry) already has some classes that can perform multiple roles and it doesn't affect their class distribution. In addition to that, I've already suggested 2 specialisations per class would be the best way to go, so most classes can perform 1-2 of the three major party roles. Of course, that's forgetting that FFXI had other roles such as buffer and debuffer, and Yoshi already mentioned buffing classes/jobs in the future.

Edit2: Just looking over that link I posted before, I think he and I really agree on the system. DoW under this method will probably all get a tanking specialisation and some variant of DD/buff/debuff specs, and DoM would get some variety of healing spec and DD/buff/debuff.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

You quite made my day with this comment! <3 <3 I feel like I did when I got a gold star on my math homework in grade school. :D I'll try to not let it go to my head, however...

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You should be honored, its hard enough as is to get anyone to agree with you on these forums. :P

+1 to Sephr who seemed to understand the same logical thing as me from the Dev. info (and quote from this thread own OP):

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•Jobs are Specialized Playstyles Optimized for Partying. (Great)

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Playing your class for X ranks made you acquire optimized playstyles (jobs) for various roles that you can further enhance with quests and such, why should these optimized playstyles (jobs) be usable by other classes (when these other classes can already equip other classes skills, a LNC/CON isn't enough, you want a LNC/WHM ???) ?

And why not allow LNC/WHM, or any other such combination? While I admit that the layout Sephr linked is indeed interesting, it's more of a promotion system then a job system, and honestly it would pull directly from any number of little F2P games out there. The 'split class promotion' concept is fairly limiting and has next to nothing in common with any job system from the FF series.

The more flexibility, the better. A true job system needs to allow the freedom to excel at something, balance multiple things, or yes, just suck at most everything. Not everything goes together well, but the fun is in the experimentation.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrAM

And why not allow LNC/WHM, or any other such combination? While I admit that the layout Sephr linked is indeed interesting, it's more of a promotion system then a job system, and honestly it would pull directly from any number of little F2P games out there. The 'split class promotion' concept is fairly limiting and has next to nothing in common with any job system from the FF series.

The more flexibility, the better. A true job system needs to allow the freedom to excel at something, balance multiple things, or yes, just suck at most everything. Not everything goes together well, but the fun is in the experimentation.

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I'm totally for flexibility, but don't we already have the tools to do that? Can't you already equip the tools to do that?

We know that each job is going to be a set of skills in some form that you unlock via quests. In the case of white mage I imagine that would be higher tiers of Cure, Regen etc. Do you want that to be accessible to every job? How would that work? What kind of penalty would a Lancer face for advancing their currently non-existent healing skills? (because as we know, a specialisation placed on Lancer would mean they'd become focussed on White mage, not that they'd become LNC/WHM)

In addition to that, doesn't that just kill the whole 'specialisation' and also the return to classic final fantasy jobs that they're shooting for?

The alternative I can see (correct me if there's another) would be that EVERY class gets their own skills for EVERY job, which would be totally unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by Sephr

I'm totally for flexibility, but don't we already have the tools to do that? Can't you already equip the tools to do that?

We know that each job is going to be a set of skills in some form that you unlock via quests. In the case of white mage I imagine that would be higher tiers of Cure, Regen etc. Do you want that to be accessible to every job? How would that work? What kind of penalty would a Lancer face for advancing their currently non-existent healing skills? (because as we know, a specialisation placed on Lancer would mean they'd become focussed on White mage, not that they'd become LNC/WHM)

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Divine Lancer
Class: Lancer
Weapon: Lance
Job: White Mage
Job Trait: +25% Healing Potency (Tier 1)
Job Ability: Benediction

This is how it could look. Again, this character would probably suck, but I wouldn't go so far as to say such a character should be impossible to make.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Divine Lancer
Class: Lancer
Weapon: Lance
Job: White Mage
Job Trait: +25% Healing Potency (Tier 1)
Job Ability: Benediction

This is how it could look. Again, this character would probably suck, but I wouldn't go so far as to say such a character should be impossible to make.

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We can already do something pretty similar by equipping One with Nature trait, Fastcast trait, Cure III, Protect II, Shell II, Stoneskin II, Shock Spikes II, Poisona, Blindna, Dia, etc ...) on a Lancer.

So .. if I use FFXI as an example since some of you like it very much, you want a system that allows LNC75/WHM75 (the current cross-class skills could be compared to the level 1-37 abilities, and the job might provide the level 38-75 abilities) with access to 2hour abilities and weapons?

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Originally Posted by Sorel

Divine Lancer
Class: Lancer
Weapon: Lance
Job: White Mage
Job Trait: +25% Healing Potency (Tier 1)
Job Ability: Benediction

This is how it could look. Again, this character would probably suck, but I wouldn't go so far as to say such a character should be impossible to make.

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Great. So why bother? Why campaign for them to spend time working on a system where 90% of the combinations suck when they could just focus on making the jobs really great but only fit certain classes?

Do you seriously just want the jobs to be passive buffs? Is the pursuit of FREEDOM so important and necessary that the jobs themselves need to be boring as hell?

EDIT: Again I should remind you, this adds no specialisation to Lancer whatsoever. They can't specialise as a healer, in fact it servers to do the OPPOSITE, which is make them a watered down mix of classes. It doesn't make sense in the context we're given.

Actually, allowing a Lancer to be a White Mage will probably prevent the player from using any lancer abilities.
The blueprint did say that certain jobs will prevent equipping of certain cross-class skills. Most Lancer skills will likely be in this list for WHM.

So, who wants to play a WHM wielding a barely-effective spear and possessing a reduced MP pool? Because THAT is what the OP is asking for. It's probably not what he wants, but it's what he's asking for.

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Originally Posted by Lerris

Actually, allowing a Lancer to be a White Mage will probably prevent the player from using any lancer abilities.
The blueprint did say that certain jobs will prevent equipping of certain cross-class skills. Most Lancer skills will likely be in this list for WHM.

So, who wants to play a WHM wielding a barely-effective spear and possessing a reduced MP pool? Because THAT is what the OP is asking for. It's probably not what he wants, but it's what he's asking for.

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Its the freedom he wants, not so much how effective they will be.

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Originally Posted by Nuru

Its the freedom he wants, not so much how effective they will be.

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But what I'm asking is, why do you want freedom for the sake of freedom? Hows about we allow our characters to move vertically as well as horizontally? Nevermind that the game's design doesn't really need it, nor would it achieve anything, but freedom is freedom right?

This system they've invented seems to be made for no reason other than to try and break boundaries that reasonably don't need to be broken, and will serve no actual purpose. It certainly won't fit with the idea of specialisation and 'old school final fantasy' idealism that people have ASKED FOR in player polls and on the forums.

Because LNC/WHM can do a healing breath for only 7MP...oh wait, different game, my bad ;P

Okay, admittedly the Devs 'do' refer to the jobs as specializations, which would imply only furthering effective 'combinations' (or whatever they end up resembling). However, I think many of us are hoping, and in fact trying in this very thread to fight against, such a pure usage of the system. I, for one, don't care much for the concept because it completely voids any chance of 'any' sort of hybrid job, such as the true Red Mages from the FF's of old (NOT the thing they turned them into in FFXI).

Now, the promotion/specialization type of chart that Sephr presented 'could' allow for certain classes, such as the Mystic Knight (a personal favorite from FFV), but only if the Devs put extreme time and effort into creating a massive amount of Jobs across all the Classes.

So which would be better, for us and for the Devs? Creating a large amount of specific Jobs? Or creating fewer jobs that could be used across all Classes?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sephr

Do you seriously just want the jobs to be passive buffs? Is the pursuit of FREEDOM so important and necessary that the jobs themselves need to be boring as hell?

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No. Boring is not what I want. But boring is maybe what we'll get.

If we go by the letter of Akihiko Matsui's post, Jobs are a method of helping define roles in a party. Their abilities are not learned by leveling, but by questing. I don't see a single quest giving more than one or two abilities and/or traits. So if by unlocking a Job, you gain ... say a Job defining ability (like Benediction), and a useful trait in parties (+25% Healing), and then during the followup quests, you gain 1 trait, and 1 ability per completed quest ... a single Job is not realistically going to have more than 10 or 12 traits and abilities total (5 or 6 quests). Compare that to the 25 total abilities available to a single Class.

So yeah. Jobs may turn out to be more boring than Armory Classes. That possibility cannot be denied.