Getting refused to EX groups as a DRK

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

That's not how that works... at all. First of all, the damage multipliers of Darkside and Grit are multiplicative, not additive. That means that a DRK under Grit/Darkside is operating with 92% damage output, not 95%. Additionally, if you're going to make inclusions of Darkside for DRK's damage, you have to include Maim's modifier for WAR. Both should be up at all times anyway. That means that DRK operates at 92% output, and War operates at 90% output. Not a huge difference, until you factor in abilities like Berserk (+50% attack power), Unchained (+33% damage output) and Storm's Eye (-10% target slashing defense), which cause WAR's output to soar, far higher than anything DRK's oGCD attacks can even hope to match.

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Ehhh, DRK's have a LOT of powerful oGCD abilities compared to the WAR's comparitively weak brutal swing. DRK's average potency for their GCD attacks is also higher than what the WAR has. That stuff adds up fast. Probably going to have to wait for someone to math the whole thing out and get a lot of parses to verify before we have a clear winner between the two. Sure the WAR's damage is going to skyrocket for 20s every 2min, but the DRK is the clear winner for the other 100s. So there's a good chance the DRK will end up on top in terms of damage done while MT. Although I'm almost positive they're both better than the PLD in terms of MT damage.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

Great. That WAR would make an equally good MT to a DRK. Not better though.

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To feed or not to feed..

I suggest you take a harder look at what Giantbane is explaining. It seems the core of tanking meta - EHP - is something you've yet to grasp.

Also, I'm not seeing a single tank class leveled on your lodestone.

That might be another indication.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Probably going to have to wait for someone to math the whole thing out and get a lot of parses to verify before we have a clear winner between the two. Sure the WAR's damage is going to skyrocket for 20s every 2min, but the DRK is the clear winner for the other 100s.

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You pretty much sum it up right there. Burst VS sustained - it depends on the fight, how the phase transitions work, how much downtime etc etc..

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Ehhh, DRK's have a LOT of powerful oGCD abilities compared to the WAR's comparitively weak brutal swing. DRK's average potency for their GCD attacks is also higher than what the WAR has. That stuff adds up fast. Probably going to have to wait for someone to math the whole thing out and get a lot of parses to verify before we have a clear winner between the two. Although I'm almost positive they're both better than the PLD in terms of MT damage (although the PLD *did* get some new toys they can use as MT, so who knows).

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From what we know so far, at least for OT damage (we can't really parse DRK MT damage too effectively, at least on dummies, because we can't actually maintain our damage while MT without taking damage), WAR has a pretty clear lead on DRK and PLD, who both end up coming up pretty even, up until DRK runs out of TP after around the 2:15 minute mark, at which point PLD starts to beat DRK by a fairly sizeable margin (until the point where PLD also runs out of TP, but when the dust settles, PLD will have done more damage, as well as still have the ability to support their party with Clemency and Divine Veil, where DRK can... pose... or something).

Don't forget, PLD has an incredibly impressive tool in the form of Fight or Flight. That's an overall increase in damage of 10% (30% for 30s every 90s) that applies to ALL of their damage dealt, including DoTs and autoattacks (this means crazy stuff from shield oath), something DRK's blood weapon can't even come close to attesting to.
While MTing, I imagine that the damage situation between PLD and DRK will be quite close, with WAR edging them both out by a considerable margin with smart play. Keep in mind that WAR can stance dance far more easily as needed than the other tanks, and the way Wrath/Abandon work implies that it was even meant for this.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

vs. Physical
Defiance = Grit
Shadowskin > Thrill of Battle + Convalescence (90s cooldown vs. 120s cooldown)
Raw Intuition > Dark Dance
Vengeance > Shadow Wall (2min cooldown vs. 3min cooldown)
Storm's Path > Reprisal
Equilibrium(War) = N/A(Drk)
Wrath(War) = N/A(Drk) / Wrath(War) ?<? Dark Dance (30 second shorter CD over RI)

Inner Beast vs.... Convalescence on its own? It's sort of all your left with. DRK basically has no answer to a 20% damage mitigation that can be thrown out every 20s or so.

Winner? WAR, it's not even close

(wanna just throw in foresight for fun? WAR wins that too)

vs. Pure Magical
Defiance = Grit
Thrill of Battle + Convalescence < Shadowskin (90s cooldown vs. 120s cooldown)
Inner Beast = Dark Mind (6s of 20% every 20s or so vs. 10s of 30% every 60s), although i'm being slightly generous here, WAR wins on pure mitigation due to being able to use it much more frequently
Vengeance > Shadow Wall
Storm's Path = N/A (Drk)
Equilibrium(War) = N/A(Drk)

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Lets not just act as if War's don't have a 1200 potency heal every 60 seconds that scales off of their AP. (Which is a lifesaver if healers are unable to prep you for a tank buster for whatever reason, or your HP is critically low and you need quick instant heal to not get mauled by an auto attack)

And Magic cannot be parried, thus Reprisal isn't even an option in pure magic fights. It shouldn't even be listed as one if Raw Intuition isn't.

And though some may say it's trivial, War's have a constantly fluctuation Parry boost that will be anywhere from 2% - 10%, growing at whatever speed they're stacking wrath at. They may not be sitting on that parry rate at 5 stacks, but that is still an advantage in parry over a Drk. That is up to left side gear piece worth of parry they are constantly hitting, assuming I'm understanding how parry percentage boosts work. (Consider this grabbing at straws if you want, but it's an advantage nonetheless. Though I guess you could argue Dark Dances 30 second shorter cooldown over Raw Intuition would change that)

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

I suggest you take a harder look at what Giantbane is explaining. It seems the core of tanking meta - EHP - is something you've yet to grasp.

Also, I'm not seeing a single tank class leveled on your lodestone.

That might be another indication.

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Umm... I think you're having the issue understanding. Yes, I'm perfectly aware that 20% reduction and 20% more HP are essentially the same result. What you don't seem to be getting is that if the WAR has the same HP as a DRK WITH Defiance up, then the mitigation from Defiance is "worthless" by comparison. A DRK with 16,000 HP and a WAR with 16,000 HP (in Defiance), the DRK can turn on Grit and get an additional 20% mitigation the WAR no longer has by comparison. In that case, the closest thing the WAR could use to match is IB.

A 20k HP WAR (in Defiance) vs a 16k DRK in Grit are roughly equal.

Take a look at my signature, pal. Maybe you'll get the hint. My character's main was PLD before HW and is now DRK.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

Lets not just act as if War's don't have a 1200 potency heal every 60 seconds that scales off of their AP.

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Great. And DRKs have Soul Eater, Abyssal Drain, and Sole Survior... what of it?

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And Magic cannot be parried, thus Reprisal isn't even an option in pure magic fights. It shouldn't even be listed as one if Raw Intuition isn't.

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Great. And DRKs have Dark Mind, what of it?

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Originally Posted by Kaedan94

Great. And DRKs have Soul Eater, Abyssal Drain, and Sole Survior... what of it?




Great. And DRKs have Dark Mind, what of it?

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Good lord just quit tanking, forever. It's for your own good.

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

Honestly, Giantbane, you're under rating Inner Beast, even for as highly as you're already considering it. That 6 seconds of reduction is up more like every 15 seconds, not including the use of skills like Vengeance, Berserk, and Infuriate; and being able to activate it more frequently is worth a hell of a lot more than the longer duration of Dark Mind, since it means that you can use Inner Beast to block way more individual tankbusters.

You could probably have Inner Beast fill in for several of those DRK cooldowns, even.

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You're right, I was being very conservative in my comparisons.

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

From what we know so far, at least for OT damage (we can't really parse DRK MT damage too effectively, at least on dummies, because we can't actually maintain our damage while MT without taking damage), WAR has a pretty clear lead on DRK and PLD, who both end up coming up pretty even, up until DRK runs out of TP after around the 2:15 minute mark, at which point PLD starts to beat DRK by a fairly sizeable margin.

Don't forget, PLD has an incredibly impressive tool in the form of Fight or Flight. That's an overall increase in damage of 10% (30% for 30s every 90s) that applies to ALL of their damage dealt, including DoTs and autoattacks (this means crazy stuff from shield oath), something DRK's blood weapon can't even come close to attesting to.
While MTing, I imagine that the damage situation between PLD and DRK will be quite close, with WAR edging them both out by a considerable margin with smart play.

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Problem is that the WAR & the PLD both is that I think they lose more when going from OT > MT. In addition to the damage penalties of the respective tanking stances, PLD loses sword oath and WAR loses deliverance and fel cleave. Now WAR does gain some of that back with unchained. The DRK loses blood weapon, but I don't think it's as big a loss as the equivalent DPS stances of the other tanks. Blood price will help regain some of the lost MP from blood weapon, and as a MT, the DRK will now have access to reprisal and having the low blow cooldown reset. So I think it's possible for the DRK to pull even or end up on top.

But, like I said, I don't think it's that straightforward and will need more investigation.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

Lets not just act as if War's don't have a 1200 potency heal every 60 seconds that scales off of their AP. (Which is a lifesaver if healers are unable to prep you for a tank buster for whatever reason, or your HP is critically low and you need quick instant heal to not get mauled by an auto attack)

And Magic cannot be parried, thus Reprisal isn't even an option in pure magic fights. It shouldn't even be listed as one if Raw Intuition isn't.

And though some may say it's trivial, War's have a constantly fluctuation Parry boost that will be anywhere from 2% - 10%, growing at whatever speed they're stacking wrath at. They may not be sitting on that parry rate at 5 stacks, but that is still an advantage in parry over a Drk. That is up to left side gear piece worth of parry they are constantly hitting, assuming I'm understanding how parry percentage boosts work. (Consider this grabbing at straws if you want, but it's an advantage nonetheless. Though I guess you could argue Dark Dances 30 second shorter cooldown would change that)

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I did not consider this to be a fully exhaustive comparison between the two classes. It's more high concept using Kaedan's original method. This time with all (I think) of the major cooldowns hit. I didn't include second wind, evasion or dark passage's potential blind effect either as long as we're pulling everything out.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

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It's so amusing when people have to resort to insults because they don't have a rational counter-argument.

You can tell you're in the tanking forum when everyone is so defensive about their job.

Eh? Eh? ;) ;)