Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

Well with losing our monk and 2 of our members getting new jobs, it took us a while, but my static finally cleared t13 (and we did it double DRG no less :D)

https://scontent-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hp...13&oe=55B01803

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Originally Posted by AyaLiz

I'm not particularly fond of the entire potency per second math surrounding cooldown usage.370 second

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Napkin math time.

Let's assume you have an SS of 391, or 2.452 skillspeed. Let's now also assume that you're using your first BFB at the beginning of the encounter as that is when your damage is most impactful (more oCDs and buffs stack multiplicatively).

If you want to ensure that you're landing your final BFB on 370s (which is a waste of CT ticks, thus an adjustment of rotation timing to do X2 TTTT), 50/2.452 = 19.667 global cooldowns, or a 4.9 global cooldown delay each time, for the 2nd - 4th BFB to land your final BFB on 370s.

The next thing you need to consider is the impact of BFB on the rotation - delaying it by 5GCDs, the overall net potency is a decrease of around 600.

So not only are you having to delay each BFB by around 12s or 5GCDs, but the overall potency is a huge decrease, and its even lower if you have to consider you're doing x2 TTT in the end, which is an even further 150ish potency loss.

This in itself tells me it is not worth waiting at all, UNLESS you're withholding BFB to push phases or waiting to use them at certain times in the encounter. Of course this is in a stable environment, but holding BFB in the manner you described is not worth it.

Having said that, Potency Per Second is a metric used to gauge how effective one possible rotation impacts your overall DPS. If it weren't for PPS, we wouldn't of known MANY things about how to play the Dragoon and players would still be complaining how crap their DPS was if it weren't for people making models of our rotation.

PPS isn't something you follow like a Bible. They're just tools for you to keep in mind and execute accordingly. Its one thing being a Text-Book DPS, it's a completely different beast to be a skilled DPS who sets trends.

wait how is this situation of holding bfb an overall net potency decrease

if you get the same amount of bfbs in a fight, then isn't it only affected by on which part of your rotation you're using bfb on? isn't it then better to wait to use it at the part of the rotation with the most +potency if you know for sure you won't lose a bfb?

wheres the net potency decrease coming from

lets say that you can only get 6 dfds in t13 as it lasts shorter than 12 minutes, then you got like a sub 2 minute window to delay dfd in that fight and not lose any dfds. Even if you're only hitting one target ever, it's still a dps increase to delay dfd so that its being used during bfb if you know that all the delays combined won't lose you 1 dfd in the fight

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Napkin math time.

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I think what AyaLiz is describing is less about combining CDs in general and more about combining your final usages of non-GCDs together since together they're stronger than used individually. It applies to pretty much every class including tanks and healers, but can be hard to execute perfectly on a whim without repetition of a fight enough that you know what your timeline is - well, except for long CDs like DFD or pot, very easy to tell if you're gonna clear a fight within their recasts and you can adjust easily. It's sound advice honestly since sustained PPS on a skill, taking into account its recast and duration, doesn't mean much if it's not coming back up anyway and you can treat them differently.

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Originally Posted by rickyguo

wheres the net potency decrease coming from

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You kind of answered your own question. By delaying BFB by 5 GDCs to ensure that your last BFB is ending towards the end of the encounter (thus skewing your DPS results slightly), you're now using BFB on points of your rotation where you're not benefiting as much from BFBs.

Just to make numbers more simple, I'm only comparing the relative Potency Increase of BFB, not the entire potency because Big Numbers are scary at this time in the morning:

No Delay: 4475.274
Delayed: 4210.002
Difference: 265.272 Potency

I overestimated the Potency difference (napkin math), but it's still a difference, a significant one.

If I were accounting for my manual GCD clips so I'm always landing my BFBs on my highest potency abilities, like I usually do with my "no delay" scenario, we'd get this result:

No Delay: 4675.563
Delayed: 4412.706
Difference: 262.857

And the delay is actually greater than my napkin math. After your first BFB application at 7s (if it's before a CT), your hardwired BFB cooldown is then applied at 91s, which really skews your overall potency, significantly. This is why you should either: use BFB optimally to benefit phases in a raid, either right on cooldown, no more than a 1GCD wait, or no more than a 1s clip to to get that 0.5 additional PPS.

As for Dragonfire Dive and Spineshatter Dive? That's a completely different story.

Now - I could be wrong for some other instance where your clear time is shorter. There may well be a time were using BFB in another one of your raids would be more beneficial (lower/longer raid time, thus different GDC waits etc), but it'll only ever work in that specific situation, so you'd have to run the numbers yourself. But as a general rule of thumb, don't delay BFB as it's already timed very well.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

I think what AyaLiz is describing is less about combining CDs in general and more about combining your final usages of non-GCDs together since together they're stronger than used individually. It applies to pretty much every class including tanks and healers, but can be hard to execute perfectly on a whim without repetition of a fight enough that you know what your timeline is - well, except for long CDs like DFD or pot, very easy to tell if you're gonna clear a fight within their recasts and you can adjust easily. It's sound advice honestly since sustained PPS on a skill, taking into account its recast and duration, doesn't mean much if it's not coming back up anyway and you can treat them differently.

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And I agree. But this rule doesn't apply to Blood for Blood. I always delay my DFDs in Raids by a few seconds if it can benefit my overall raid DPS. Same goes for my Spineshatter Dive. As long as you fit in the amount of oCDs you should be, per instance, then it doesn't matter when you land them.

In fact, if you want to maximise your raid DPS even more, timing it so your oCDs matches up with maybe one or two of your BFBs is better - Not the other way around.

you always land perfectly on your most potent gcds in your t10 video because you don't have selene

if you factor in fey light then things go wrong and get messy and there are definitely situations where I have to delay 2gcds for my bfb to hit during ct/phleb/ft

Yup and that's when it gets even more complicated to talk about - Then there's also the fact you can ask your Scholar to delay EoS to min/max your BFB potency at certain intervals. Lots of variables involved, so you'd need everything yourself to make sure it's concurrent with your raiding situation.

But, I can check the potency differences later on with a regular Selene going off every 60s if you'd like? After Live Letter XX of course :D

EDIT: New Dragoon Limit Break animation will be shown in the Heavnsward Benchmark... Go go Dataminers! Give us the Loots!

I'm a new level 50 with full wootz(donated by a friend).


I'm currently at:
STR:562
Acc:510
DET:289
Skill Speed:511

With the skill speed, I'm able to get 2 TT-VT-FT rotations during a single BFB while also weaving in a HT before the second one. I have a bunch of SS IV materia melded on my wootz gear(I'm ARM50) but people saying I have way too much SS. Should I replace with DET?

Det>Crit>SS. With 378 SS, you can pop a BfB right before Chaos Thrust and still do TT-VT-(LS)-FT-HT-TT-VT-FT in an ideal/no lag or dodging required frame (done it on dummy and while learning t10, now I just have to practice setting that up consistently). I'm no expert, but from what little theorycraft building I've done and from what I've seen from the stalwarts here who have put in a whole hell of a lot more time than I into maxing out Dragoon statwise, by the time you get fully geared in i130 or penta-melded gear, you will want about 500 crit, 400 det, and 378 skill speed (assuming you also have a Black Truffle Risotto in there as well for even more boost).

Now since you are i110 from full crafted armor, I would say that it is more likely to have 450-500 crit, and like 350 det, while setting yourself up to lower your skill speed down to the 400ish range (everyone has their own preference).

The one thing I will say, however, is that come Heavensward when skill speed affects DoT damage in some shape or form, skill speed will become more important than it currently is for all classes (though to what extent we shall see).

I can't get that rotation because I use Phlebotemize right after CT, so I'm like 2s too late for that second FT under BFB

Are you doing something like H - P - IDC - P TTT? Because what you just said is impossible without a rotation similar to what I just posted, which, is absolutely inefficient. You're screwing up your rotation somewhere, I can guarantee it.

Watch this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfjU6hJC_II

My rotation is:

HT-IR-Dis-BFB-CT-PH-PS-TT-Jump-VT-LS-HT-TT-VT-FT


Usually by the second TT I have 3-4 seconds on BFB so I just barely make it or in most cases don't make it.

Its going to be VERY tight (thats what she said) to get that 2nd FT in with you SS. I found that using leg sweep immediately after CT can help. The LS animation will prevent animation lock of CT and give you those extra milliseconds you need.

If that still doesnt work, the other idea is to NOT put up the second HT and just finish out the FT rotation with only B4B. Look at it this way... HT+15% but B4B+30%. So even if you dont have HT up for that FT the +30% increase on B4B with FT is worth it.

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Originally Posted by TheKingSlayer

Its going to be VERY tight (thats what she said) to get that 2nd FT in with you SS. I found that using leg sweep immediately after CT can help. The LS animation will prevent animation lock of CT and give you those extra milliseconds you need.

If that still doesnt work, the other idea is to NOT put up the second HT and just finish out the FT rotation with only B4B. Look at it this way... HT+15% but B4B+30%. So even if you dont have HT up for that FT the +30% increase on B4B with FT is worth it.

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The solution isn't to say "hey well, just remove HT!" The issue is that his button presses are messed up, or he's clipping his GCD or not delaying Blood for Blood application before the Chaos Thrust. He has 500+ Skillspeed. That's what you're forgetting, that should be a Global Cooldown of around 2.33, hence why I suggested he watch my video for some tips.

If you stop Heavy Thrust, then your next Phlebotomize + Chaos Thrust application no longer have the 15% buff, thus an overall long-term DPS decrease. What you suggest isn't optimal at all.

20/2.33 = 8.584 Global Cooldowns. That's equal to him pressing his Blood for Blood 1.36072s into his Disembowel, just about halfway through his GCD. At 511 Skillspeed, even AU players with 200ms+ can 9GCD BFB with proper timing. Unless he has 400ms+ or a bad connection with constant ping spikes. In which case, Lagarith Latency Fix + WTFast is the answer.

If he STILL cannot get 9GCD BFBs after these suggestions, then he should go for plan B and use just BFB before Impulse Drive.

So it seems I can press an ability when the GCD bar is about 75% finished filling up but if the mob moves even 1 foot it can totally screw everything up because by the time my second FT is coming up, BFB is like at 2 seconds, I barely hit by a few milliseconds. Infact, BFB wears the moment my FT animation begins, before the hit and damage actually register, but I guess it still counts. Anyway, should it always be this tight?

Not for your skillspeed, no. Are you delaying BFB by half a GCD? You shouldn't have any problems at your skillspeed.

And yes, normally the damage for my FT lands whilst my BFB falls off at the same time. It's very tight, that's why you need to make sure you're not clipping GCDs. You'd know you landed it if your FT is around 1350-1500 (at i130). If you never landed it, FT is 900-1100.

If you can't manage it or it's too much stress, just use BFB normally before ID, like what I posted above.

Though it may have been mentioned before, what's the DPS increase of using an adjusted 9 GCD BFB rotation as opposed to the traditional one? Seeing as BFB's cooldown makes it awkward to pull off several times per battle (while still hitting two FTs in there, I mean) I imagine it's not amazing over a ten-minute fight.

Too many variables involved to calculate the exact potency. Are you using Selene? Do you have high skillspeed? Are do you have latency? Do you clip GCDs anywhere in the rotation slightly (like I do). All of these affect the BFB placements, a lot.

We can estimate it as a 0.9375% (or *1.009375) average DPS increase of 8GCD vs 9GCD. It's a very small increase, noticeable on paper. Not in game.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

The solution isn't to say "hey well, just remove HT!" The issue is that his button presses are messed up, or he's clipping his GCD or not delaying Blood for Blood application before the Chaos Thrust. He has 500+ Skillspeed. That's what you're forgetting, that should be a Global Cooldown of around 2.33, hence why I suggested he watch my video for some tips.

If you stop Heavy Thrust, then your next Phlebotomize + Chaos Thrust application no longer have the 15% buff, thus an overall long-term DPS decrease. What you suggest isn't optimal at all.

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My mistake I thought he had onyl 375 SS for some reason. Also what I suggested was if his SS was that low, to finish off 2nd FT rotation with only B4B up then immediately re-apply HT. So there would only be 1 GCD (FT) without HT buff but would still have B4B.

I finally got it down but if the mob moves a centimeter or you get stunned or have to do mechanics, it goes out the window. It works best on stationary mobs that don't have threatening aoe. Even with good timing, seems hard to land this sort of thing in a real fight unless it's weak content that you're burning.

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Originally Posted by TheKingSlayer

My mistake I thought he had onyl 375 SS for some reason. Also what I suggested was if his SS was that low, to finish off 2nd FT rotation with only B4B up then immediately re-apply HT. So there would only be 1 GCD (FT) without HT buff but would still have B4B.

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I suggested this many pages ago, it's an increase for that time frame but you lose *potential* potency on following GCDs so it's kind of a wash. I never get the second FT tho, B4B always falls off right before. 360ish skill speed

Stupid question: Is it just me or did they change it so that if you miss Heavy Thrust's positional requirement you still get the buff? I've been gone 6-8 months (can't remember) and last I remember if you missed the positional you didn't get the buff.

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Originally Posted by spelley

Stupid question: Is it just me or did they change it so that if you miss Heavy Thrust's positional requirement you still get the buff? I've been gone 6-8 months (can't remember) and last I remember if you missed the positional you didn't get the buff.

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Ya we got buffed back in 2.45

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...cf56b933b99601

Scroll down to Battle System to see everything.

Edit: welcome back!

I've done a bit of testing, and found conclusively that each buff to the same stat (eg "damage dealt") is multiplicative to all others. That is to say, stacks of a buff are the only thing that is additive, everything else is multiplicative. The test that I did was using True Thrust on a training dummy, I used it repeatedly until I felt comfortable that the minimum and maximum non-crit damage values were stable, then I applied heavy thrust, to find the min/max values under that and to confirm that it was a straight 15% increase, which it was. After that, I let heavy thrust wear off and applied B4B, doing the same for it. Then I used them together, if the bonuses were additive, then the overall bonus would have been 1 + (.15 +.3), but if they were multiplicative then the bonuses would have been (1.15 * 1.30), the damage values followed the latter bonus calculation, which means that B4B and Heavy Thrust are multiplicative on each other.

if you stack adds in t10 so you can flare/aoe them together, you can hit all 4 adds with doomspike ROFL

Or, just bring the adds over to they're on the hitbox of Imdugud. Doomspike works that way, and all you do is target Imdugud and you should hit all 4.

ya thats what I said

thats how you stack for aoe/flare

Oh. I thought you meant to literally "stack them on top of each other" LOL. I went full retard there.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Oh. I thought you meant to literally "stack them on top of each other" LOL. I went full retard there.

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He now has a parse i can't even compete with.. D:
stupid add stacking. ninja aoe is so shit i just couldnt even do it.

I thought adds in T10 gained some kind of vulnerability down buff if they stayed too close? Or was it just damage up? I never had the chance to try that out, unfortunately, so I've never paid any mind to what happens in that case.

I think it was discussed/I read it somewhere, but for the life of me I can't remember how that ended: Phlebotomize, is there a certain timeframe for reapplying it early because of impending downtime (like "never reapply if 6 seconds or more")? Is Fracture before leaving a valid alternative to that, not taking into consideration TP issues?

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

I thought adds in T10 gained some kind of vulnerability down buff if they stayed too close? Or was it just damage up? I never had the chance to try that out, unfortunately, so I've never paid any mind to what happens in that case.

I think it was discussed/I read it somewhere, but for the life of me I can't remember how that ended: Phlebotomize, is there a certain timeframe for reapplying it early because of impending downtime (like "never reapply if 6 seconds or more")? Is Fracture before leaving a valid alternative to that, not taking into consideration TP issues?

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only if they're too close. You can aoe off off the boss though, hitting all of them.

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

I think it was discussed/I read it somewhere, but for the life of me I can't remember how that ended: Phlebotomize, is there a certain timeframe for reapplying it early because of impending downtime (like "never reapply if 6 seconds or more")? Is Fracture before leaving a valid alternative to that, not taking into consideration TP issues?

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I remember this discussion ages ago back when T8 was a thing where players were stuck on for months. The conclusion was that in some situations, yes, forgetting about TP consumption, refreshing Phlebotomise for an additional 3 ticks (if those remaining 3 ticks are guaranteed at least) is beneficial for your DPS. There's times where I do it on T10 adds (I usually IDC + P son, same for daughter, P on son again and switch to B when in pug groups) where it can be okay, but if you're in a pro group, no, not at all.

T13 however... If you're on add duty, reapplying Phlebotomize on Bahamut Prime before going for that Dragon add pretty good if I may say so myself and sometimes the timing of that phlebotomize perfectly synchronises with add kill + rotation.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... If you can guarantee you can get those additional ticks on the monster you reapplied Phlebotomize on without it dying or having to refresh the DoT due to your rotation, it's a DPS increase.

I see. I was thinking of a costant specific scenario in T13: because of my latency/lack of patience of my group, in p1 I can't weave skills during the Earthshakers. When the first round of ES (without Cover) starts, I'm usually hitting Heavy thrust + True Thrust when the marks appear. I can just hit True, risk a Vorpal then run - or I can use Phlebo, which should currently be more or less half of its duration, but I'm not sure of what is better. Or if it matters at all in the long run, in p4.

With Doom Spiking adds on T10, how low should you really let yourself go before you get TP starved? Or how many uses of doom spike should we use? 2 or 3 would already run me kinda dry depending on which add phase we're talking about, so I wanna see if you guys just do it once or twice or burnout lol.

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Originally Posted by Noxotic

With Doom Spiking adds on T10, how low should you really let yourself go before you get TP starved? Or how many uses of doom spike should we use? 2 or 3 would already run me kinda dry depending on which add phase we're talking about, so I wanna see if you guys just do it once or twice or burnout lol.

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I DS until ~300 TP. (For the 2nd tank's adds)
No real math behind it. Just going by gut feeling.

*This is with a Ninja in the party though. I haven't really tried DSing without someone to goad me at some point in the fight.

I doomed spiked 10 times in total.

7 times for the first adds and 3 times for the second adds since there was lb2.

The faster you kill the adds and the faster you kill the fight, the more okay with tp you will be. I think I got both goad and a bit of tp song.

It's only mega worth if your doomspikes hitting all 4 adds.

Hello, I've been following this thread like a bible since I started and a question prompted me to finally start a forum account to get an opinion regarding Longinus Zeta versus Dreadwyrm Spear.

My FC leader insist that the Dreadwyrm Spear is BiS because you'll throw in an extra auto-attack with the Dread every X second when compared to the Zeta due to the Dread having lower delay and that one auto-attack will/can completely disregard the Zeta's stat weight. Can I get a detailed elaboration on this ? I've looked tens of pages back when the comparisons were being debated but it doesn't really answer my question.

Thanks in advance and very much sorry if the answer were indeed in those past pages. x-x

Your FC leader is wrong. All spears even out to about 100 potency per three seconds through autoattacks - the ones with higher delays also hit harder, so it balances out.

The only DW weapon that's better I believe is the sword only if the paladin is in sword oath. Otherwise the relics with optimal stats are better.

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Originally Posted by Jin_Asanagi

Hello, I've been following this thread like a bible since I started and a question prompted me to finally start a forum account to get an opinion regarding Longinus Zeta versus Dreadwyrm Spear.

My FC leader insist that the Dreadwyrm Spear is BiS because you'll throw in an extra auto-attack with the Dread every X second when compared to the Zeta due to the Dread having lower delay and that one auto-attack will/can completely disregard the Zeta's stat weight. Can I get a detailed elaboration on this ? I've looked tens of pages back when the comparisons were being debated but it doesn't really answer my question.

Thanks in advance and very much sorry if the answer were indeed in those past pages. x-x

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Adding onto Mibhas post:

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Now if you are paying attention, you noticed I added in another term that I have yet not mentioned: (potency/100). All the testing I did with Weaponskills involvedusing 100 potency Weaponskills such as Vorpal Thrust (no combo). Through a similar process as the previous testing, I have established that potency is a linear modifier. That means, a 200 potency WS will do 2x the average damage of a 100 potency WS. So the (potency/100) term is to reflect this influence on damage output.

In a similar fashion, we must determine how the “potency” of Auto-Attack works. If you look at a weapon, you will notice the “Auto-Attack” stat. For example: With the Mogfork,the Weapon Damage is 41 and the Weapon’s Auto-Attack stat is 40.45. To calculate the Auto-Attack potency, simply divide WAA/WD or 40.45/41. This comes out to be 0.9866, and if multiplied by 100, comes out as 98.66 potency. This is the exact same “potency” stat as with weaponskills. For comparison, here is a DRG with a Mogfork doing Auto-Attack, True Thrust, and Vorpal Thrust:

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http://valk.dancing-mad.com/methodology/

A vast majority of the games basic mechanics are covered in Valkys BLITZBALL site. Formulas are out-dated, but his theories are all 100% valid.