Revelations from SHADOWBRINGERS

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm honestly hoping Zenos just gets played by Elidibus and his whole "Harness the power of Zodiark/Hydaelyn" scheme blows up in his face at a pivotal moment.

The guy really doesn't deserve to be the "final boss" of the entire story arc with how long Elidibus and Zodiark have been in the picture comparatively and already had his chance back in SB.

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Please, yes. I like Zenos at some point but really he doesn't deserve to be the "final" boss of something. If he want to kill us, he just have to do it on his own, why going to take more "primal" power ? For what purpose ? More power won't change anything if he just want to fight us. Or do he want us to become a "god" and fight each other till the end of times ?
And if we refuse this battle ? What could he do ? Just destroy everything cause he doesn't care ? We saw that he just want us ( the Warrior of Light ) to fight him... I don't see the point to get Zodiark/Hydaelyn's power.
For me, it's just a plot for make Hydaelyn or Zodiark in danger so we will have to do anything to save them both and then restore the balance between Light and Darkness.

And I'll laugh if Hydaelyn's power get eaten by Zenos. So that means Zenos is more powerful than Hydaelyn...? What about us then ?

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Originally Posted by Evraeh

And I'll laugh if Hydaelyn's power get eaten by Zenos. So that means Zenos is more powerful than Hydaelyn...? What about us then ?

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Chances of Zenos being able to consume both Zodiark and Hydaelyn is zero if they are both at full strength.

However, being Primals they can be greatly weakened to a point their powers can be easily consumed by another primal or someone with that ability.

Either way this is only one outcome I can see as possible finale.

Another is that the whole plan backfires the moment he attempts to consume them both and Zeno accidently awakens something more powerful than Zodiark and Hydaelyn combined from the Original World that may bring about a 2nd Original Calamity to destroy the entire planet while he himself is obliterated by that thing thus making 5.4 to 6.0 plot partly about the Original World and what truly lead to the Original Calamity, a good amount focused on Elidibus with him providing more History of the Original World and what he did back then before becoming tempered by Zodiark, and how to prevent it again without the need of Zodiark, Hydaelyn, or other Primals of Godly powers.

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Originally Posted by Evraeh

And I'll laugh if Hydaelyn's power get eaten by Zenos. So that means Zenos is more powerful than Hydaelyn...? What about us then ?

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Honestly, if he does go off and eat one of them I've been hoping it was Hydaelyn, if only because how how hilarious it'd be to have to work with Elidibus to rejoin everything to the point where we can get Zodiark's help.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Honestly, if he does go off and eat one of them I've been hoping it was Hydaelyn, if only because how how hilarious it'd be to have to work with Elidibus to rejoin everything to the point where we can get Zodiark's help.

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At that point Elidibus may consider Zenos too much of a threat to consider it, since he could just cleave Zodiark again. It's far more likely that he will decide that we, being Hydaelyn's chosen and a member of the Convocation of Fourteen, need to be completely rejoined and thus at full power to take out Zenos. Because Zenos would destroy everything with that kind of power, and Elidibus would place his bets on a member of the Fourteen (and a former colleague) with their full memories of the past choosing what happens at the end rather than a battle-thirsty egomaniac.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

At that point Elidibus may consider Zenos too much of a threat to consider it, since he could just cleave Zodiark again. It's far more likely that he will decide that we, being Hydaelyn's chosen and a member of the Convocation of Fourteen, need to be completely rejoined and thus at full power to take out Zenos. Because Zenos would destroy everything with that kind of power, and Elidibus would place his bets on a member of the Fourteen (and a former colleague) with their full memories of the past choosing what happens at the end rather than a battle-thirsty egomaniac.

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I suppose that is true, but it mostly just goes to where the real fun is. The fabled point where we actually work with Elidibus like he hinted at all those patches ago.

Looks like I'm in the minority who actually likes Zenos. He's a character he does his own thing and can slid pretty easily into any storyline and add dynamism to it. I'm personally more invested in Zenos as a character and as a rival for the WoL to overcome than some soul-eating, eldritch horror crystal on the moon.

To me, the Ascian plot is the least interesting storyline, only somewhat salvaged by ShB. After so many JRPGs and anime, I'm exhausted by the usual supernatural ancient conspiracy revolving around an ensemble of big bads playing the pronoun game. No matter how hard the protagonists try to thwart the big bads, everything that happens in the story inexplicably advances their agenda, up until the very end when the writer finally allows them to be foiled. As flawed as Stormbood was, I preferred it's grounded setting about people. I was rather annoyed that the story left the war arc unfinished to go back to the Ascian plot. Yay, Emet-Selch was interesting. And now he's dead. That said, it was incredibly refreshing to see Emperor Boring die and Elidibus get chased out of the capital. Personally, I think stories with conflicting antagonists are very interesting, as it usurps the "good guys stomp the bad guys one by one" dynamic and allows for a more dynamic story.

As for Zenos eating Zodiark, that would be an interesting twist, but I'm not sure how that would lead to a climatic resolution of the Ascian plot, which seems to supersede everything else. What, he eats a shard of Zodiark on the moon, we kill him, and then... ???

Zenos doesn't feel like grand, epic story ending material, while Zodiark is just too impersonal for me to really care about.

Zenos eating Zodiark or hydelyn would mea. They're in a very very weakened state. I mean, as much as Hades was strong, he was still 1 ancient. We're talking about being who we're conjured with the aether of an entire population, with Zodiark having a whopping 50%.

That's a freaking lot of eather, and while I agree they are weakened. (zordiar' because he's shattered, hydelyn for wathever reason and also because she had less starting aether) I can't see them being so weak that ze os could take them on his own.

Maybe Elidibus is going to help Zenos try to absorb Hydaelyn, therefore making him a "warrior of light".

Either way I do expect 4.1 to 6.0 to provide us with plenty of lore about the original world and the Original Soul.

They set the stage for these plots and potentially 6.0 to 6.3 as the Finale for Season 1 storyline, now they just have to make it work.

I still hope to see a Job that is based on the Lore of awakening the Powers of the Original Soul which so far I can only see being a Noctis Job that focus on Armiger mechanic as a True Melee DPS Sword Mage or a new Job unique to FF14 that has not appeared in past FF games yet.

Has there been some kind of Word of God claim that the Ascian and Zodiark storyline is going to end in the next expansion that I missed? Legit question.

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Originally Posted by Alleluia

Has there been some kind of Word of God claim that the Ascian and Zodiark storyline is going to end in the next expansion that I missed? Legit question.

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I believe Yoshi P addressed the Hydaelyn and Zodiarck arc would be 80% complete by the end of the Shadowbringers patch cycle, either in an interview around Gamescon or somewhere earlier. As such, most people are anticipating the end of that arc to be in 6.0

Yoshi-P said in an interview (Dengeki or Famitsu, I believe, about a year ago?) concerning FF XIV's life cycle that they had ideas for two more expansions to end the current story and even more ideas for at least 4 years of new story after that. Since we were in the 4.x cycle then, it's interpreted as the Hydaelyn/Zodiark Arc ending 2 expacs later with 6.x.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Honestly, if he does go off and eat one of them I've been hoping it was Hydaelyn, if only because how how hilarious it'd be to have to work with Elidibus to rejoin everything to the point where we can get Zodiark's help.

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Which would go against our character. Because rejoining means huge catastrophes on the source and billions of lifes lost through the shards. Our character would never ever stand for this and the scions even less.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

Which would go against our character. Because rejoining means huge catastrophes on the source and billions of lifes lost through the shards. Our character would never ever stand for this and the scions even less.

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The thing about the Rejoining is that we have not heard about the method of rejoining that does not cause a Calamity yet.

I still suspect there is a way to Rejoin the world into the original world without a Calalmity but the only reason why we don't see it is because of Zodiark Temp on the Ascians preventing them from seeing it. The Calamity can be considered the "Faster" method but also the most destructive.

The Non-Calamity method may require something very difficult to achieve or very risky to even attempt such as requiring both Zodiark and Hydaelyn to get along and perform the rejoining together but currently we know that is impossible due to their nature with Zodiark about preserving the past life while Hydaelyn is about preserving the future life.


and they want basically want to kill each other with the added fact the Calamity also weakens Hydaelyn as a bonus this Zodiark may only allow the Ascians to see the Calamity as the only way through their tempering.

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

Yoshi-P said in an interview (Dengeki or Famitsu, I believe, about a year ago?) concerning FF XIV's life cycle that they had ideas for two more expansions to end the current story and even more ideas for at least 4 years of new story after that. Since we were in the 4.x cycle then, it's interpreted as the Hydaelyn/Zodiark Arc ending 2 expacs later with 6.x.

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Yep, we are at that point now if we consider what it is said.

Still makes me wonder how will Season 2 storyline go if it is only 4 years which will only last 2 expansions unless they plan for another 2 expansions after to extend the expect time to another 4 years but that would stretch it considering the demand for a better graphic FF MMO.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

The thing about the Rejoining is that we have not heard about the method of rejoining that does not cause a Calamity yet.

I still suspect there is a way to Rejoin the world into the original world without a Calalmity but the only reason why we don't see it is because of Zodiark Temp on the Ascians preventing them from seeing it. The Calamity can be considered the "Faster" method but also the most destructive.

The Non-Calamity method may require something very difficult to achieve or very risky to even attempt such as requiring both Zodiark and Hydaelyn to get along and perform the rejoining together but currently we know that is impossible due to their nature with Zodiark about preserving the past life while Hydaelyn is about preserving the future life.

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Even if there is a way to rejoin without a Calamity, why would we want to do that? A Rejoining means killing off one of the Shards so the Source sucks up all its aether. Even if there's no Calamity on the Source we'd still be killing off all the remaining Shards and their citizens. There's no harm in allowing the Shards and all of the people living in them to remain as they are.

It's my guess, that if Zenos tries to possess and control Zodiark (or Hydaelyn - but more likely Zo, i think), he will succeed. I have several reasons for believing that:
- "Villain succeeds in horrendous plot, and the hero has to overcome impossible odds to stop him" is a Final Fantasy staple.
- God conquers mortal is the expected result. Mortal conquers god is far more interesting and subversive.
- Zenos's success has been foreshadowed - not because he possessed Shinryu, but because he KNEW he could possess Shinryu. He has an understanding of Primals and their nature than anyone else - possibly even the Ascians. The fact that Zodiark is more powerful is irrelevant. A truck may be bigger and stronger than a Volkswagon, but as long as you can get behind the steering wheel you can drive either one.
- There are certainly stories where the villain Meddles with Forces He Ought Not and gets squooshed for his hubris, but Zenos's character really doesn't fit the mold for that type.

I'll admit I'm in the camp that really just wishes Zenos would drop out of the story, but that's just wishful thinking. I think there's simply too much writing on the wall that Zenos is not only going to try to possess Zodiark, but that he will succeed. If we're lucky, when we defeat Zenos we'll still be able to go a round with uncorrupted Zodiark, but I'm fairly confident we're going to have to have our climactic battle with "our enemy, our friend" first, with him at his absolute strongest.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

Even if there is a way to rejoin without a Calamity, why would we want to do that? A Rejoining means killing off one of the Shards so the Source sucks up all its aether. Even if there's no Calamity on the Source we'd still be killing off all the remaining Shards and their citizens. There's no harm in allowing the Shards and all of the people living in them to remain as they are.

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Folks advocating a "kind Rejoining" generally mean that EVERYTHING is merged. All of the people on all worlds are saved, whether by those people physically existing side-by-side on one world, or their consciousnesses merging.

The goal is to have the cake and eat it, too. Undo the damage done by the Sundering without any of the negatives that come with the Ascians' form of Rejoining.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

It's my guess, that if Zenos tries to possess and control Zodiark, he will succeed. I have several reasons for believing that:
- "Villain succeeds in horrendous plot, and the hero has to overcome impossible odds to stop him" is a Final Fantasy staple.
- God conquers mortal is the expected result. Mortal conquers god is far more interesting and subversive.
- Zenos's success has been foreshadowed - not because he possessed Shinryu, but because he KNEW he could possess Shinryu. He has an understanding of Primals and their nature than anyone else - possibly even the Ascians. The fact that Zodiark is more powerful is irrelevant. A truck may be bigger and stronger than a Volkswagon, but as long as you can get behind the steering wheel you can drive either one.
- There are certainly stories where the villain Meddles with Forces He Ought Not and gets squooshed for his hubris, but Zenos's character really doesn't fit the mold for that type.

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There are reasons for it to go the other way too.

- subverting the "villain succeeds" plot and the foreshadowing.
- Zenos has already successfully merged with Shinryu, therefore potentially "mortal conquers god" is the expected outcome to be subverted.
- he has announced his plan ahead of time - this makes it less likely to play out as intended.
- I think "squooshed for his hubris" could be exactly what we're headed for.

Also on your "truck is like a Volkswagen" analogy... truck licenses are a specific thing for a reason, and if you assume you can safely drive the truck because you understand the theory and you drove a car once, then it may go badly for you.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Folks advocating a "kind Rejoining" generally mean that EVERYTHING is merged. All of the people on all worlds are saved, whether by those people physically existing side-by-side on one world, or their consciousnesses merging.

The goal is to have the cake and eat it, too. Undo the damage done by the Sundering without any of the negatives that come with the Ascians' form of Rejoining.

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I can't see a "kind Rejoining" possibly being a thing - thematically or realistically.

You can't just merge the worlds and have everything be wonderful. The effect on the physical worlds would be chaotic - the same locations can be utterly different, and multiple countries would suddenly be occupying the same space.

And merged consciousnesses would be even more horrendous than the different people existing side by side. Could you imagine suddenly sharing your mind and memories with seven other people who are only "you" by some arcane link, despite having lived entirely different lives? Or to be one of those people - your body no longer your own, everyone you ever knew dissolved and recombined into someone else?

This is not a happy outcome, and is incompatible with the message so far of holding all those lives as equally unique and deserving of protection.

Regarding Zenos and his plan.

Let's make an analogy to a certain well known but questionably written anime/manga, namely Naruto.

Zodiark plays the role of Kaguya.
Elidibus plays the role of White Zetsu.
Zenos is the Madara of this analogy.

"Oops, i absorbed too much power and got stabbed in the back by the guy who set me on the path to getting the power in the first place while i was busy monologuing at the heroes"

I'd laugh if it went down like that.

Using an existing work as an example seemed like the easiest way to get my point across, and that was the first one i thought of that fit the bill for the most part while also being fairly well known.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I can't see a "kind Rejoining" possibly being a thing - thematically or realistically.

You can't just merge the worlds and have everything be wonderful. The effect on the physical worlds would be chaotic - the same locations can be utterly different, and multiple countries would suddenly be occupying the same space.

And merged consciousnesses would be even more horrendous than the different people existing side by side. Could you imagine suddenly sharing your mind and memories with seven other people who are only "you" by some arcane link, despite having lived entirely different lives? Or to be one of those people - your body no longer your own, everyone you ever knew dissolved and recombined into someone else?

This is not a happy outcome, and is incompatible with the message so far of holding all those lives as equally unique and deserving of protection.

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It greatly depends on which method result is used.

The most common "Rejoining" in fantasy stories and Sci-fi stories, is the end result in a world that never experience nor got influenced by X event thus the History of the world is changed and certain people who would have been evil took on a different path in their life and certain people who died during the journey to the finale that cause the "Rejoining" plot are alive because the X event never happened in the "Rejoined" world.

However, the most common and generic Price for this ending is usually that only the Main Character or Main Characters remember the events of the Old World while everyone else do not have any memories because in the New "Rejoined" World's History these events never happened while changing the course of certain events as well that cause it to be mostly the same but with some major changes as well due to the removal of Ascians and WoL in History of the Planet.

For example, in the New "Rejoined" World, Aymeric still became the new leader of Ishgard but the difference is without Ascians in the History of the World Thordan never obtained the Idea to become a Primal to rule the World thus he is alive but either imprisoned or is a different person that allowed Aymeric to become the new leader of Ishgard since Aymeric manage to convince Thordan he is wrong. However, since Asican never gave Thordan and his knights the power of Primals nor caused the events of the chase into Azys Lla, Haurchefant and Ysayle are alive in the New World due to the change in History by simply removing the influence of Ascians from existence.

Another example, is that the Scions never came to existence due to no Ascians in the History of the world. Thus each Scion member took a different path in life but personality wise tey may remain the same such as Alphinaud and Alisaie remained in Sharlayan thus they never experienced the events of 2.0 to 6.0 that made them who we know today. Y'shtola may have remained with her Master to advance her knowledge to become her Sorceress Job. Thancred will still have Minfillia alive while also raising Ryne as his second daughter while Minfilia acts as Ryne's older sister. Papalymo will still be alive since in the New World history he never sacrificed himself to stop Shinryu due to no Ascians to give Ilberd the Eyes to summon Shinryu and Lyse would have learned to accept her true self by her own will (similar to how she did in Dissidia Opera Omnia) but since the Garlean Empire still exist history still set the real Yda to die and the Liberation of Ala Mhigo still happened but without Ascian, Primals, Echo powers, nor WoL being involved due to the changed History.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

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That's not rejoining, that's overwriting timelines - only one version survives and the other is "thrown out". And you're only thinking about the Source, not the shards - we've seen that the worlds aren't identical copies like that. The differences are far greater than "character X died on the Source but survived on the First" - entire civilisations are different.

Additionally, replacing the Source with "a version of the Source where the Ascians never existed" is near impossible. They didn't just cause the death of a few people we like; they're entwined through all of history. The Allagan Empire might not exist; the Garlean Empire would not exist; the War of the Magi well might have been their doing. The Sundering itself might be erased.

This is an entirely different issue to the Rejoining ofthe current worlds, to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

That's not rejoining, that's overwriting timelines - only one version survives and the other is "thrown out". And you're only thinking about the Source, not the shards - we've seen that the worlds aren't identical copies like that. The differences are far greater than "character X died on the Source but survived on the First" - entire civilisations are different.

Additionally, replacing the Source with "a version of the Source where the Ascians never existed" is near impossible. They didn't just cause the death of a few people we like; they're entwined through all of history. The Allagan Empire might not exist; the Garlean Empire would not exist; the War of the Magi well might have been their doing. The Sundering itself might be erased.

This is an entirely different issue to the Rejoining ofthe current worlds, to say the least.

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It is still a possible "Rejoining" result as it has been used before in certain stories when they fused together Two or multiple Parallel worlds.

The other option is a bit complicated because they have to take into considerations what the Rejoining actually means if it is done through a Non-Calamity method. That one can result in a completely new and Larger world that combines all the lands of all remaining Shards that was not destroyed by their select element and forced back into the Source thus becoming new "Continents" for future expansions to explore in a Ascian/Zodiark free world.

It is difficult now to determine the result of a Non-Calamity rejoining because we only know about what happens when a Rejoining happens in a Calamity method which would basically destroy all life in the shard so it can become the elemental energy needed to return to the source. However, a Non-Calamity rejoining may not bring the destruction of the Shard lands but instead may preserve it and add it into the world.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

It is still a possible "Rejoining" result as it has been used before in certain stories when they fused together Two or multiple Parallel worlds.

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Other stories. Not this one. It is not a concept that works here.

We don't have multiple copies of the Source that diverged in the recent past like your example scenarios.

If we did have them and they merged, that's not an "everyone lives" outcome. That's "one version of everyone lives and erases the other one". (Which is in fact what the Future Ironworks team were attempting to do to their own timeline, but is a completely different phenomenon to Rejoining.)

I don't see it as a good outcome. It discards character growth, and ignores the way that one character's death might be a catalyst for another's maturation.

It goes against the overall theme of the story - of moving forward and appreciating what we have instead of trying to restore it to how it once was but cannot be again.

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And on combining the shards into some new Frankenstein's monster of a planet, no. You can't just do that. It would wreak havoc with the natural world.

The shards are copies occupying the same space, not fragments of a larger whole that can be reassembled.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

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Well all we can do is speculate on what and what cannot happen from what we only know currently.

We don't know the results since all we go on is from what we currently know and what we theroize what may happen.

A lot of things can change through the course of 5.1 to 6.0 that changes everything we know about the game's lore considering they open up the can of wurms called the "Original World" and the "Original Soul of WoL". 5.0 started the spark to question everything we know about the world while confirming certain speculations as true. Now as said in the 5.0 finale, we cannot predict what will happen in the future anymore, only watch and see what will be the results.

i expect to see a lot more lore about the Original World and how the Sundering actually happened while maybe actually get to see a vision on the actual events that allow us to understand more about the True History of the FF14 Universe. Maybe include a few story events and instances where WoL gets to be experience important aspects of the Original Soul's life to have first hand view of the events leading to the Original Calamity and what the Original World was like beyond Amaurot and possible other Ancient Civilizations that existed during the Original World.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

The thing about the Rejoining is that we have not heard about the method of rejoining that does not cause a Calamity yet.

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And we cant just assume that such a way is possible and also why should we even do that? For us living like its now is good. Maybe we will get some more information that show this kind of state as being bad, but I somehow doubt it. Also how would such rejoinings even happen without any death? These shards are not like Azys Lla, they are not missing from our planet. They are their own planet so how twould they even fit on our source? How would these billions of lifeforms not mess up the source if they suddenly pop up?

And for what? To fight Zodiark? Why? He is probably the most powerful being in existence. He was created by the sacrifice of unknown amounts of Ancient beings. He was able to save a planet that was beyond saving and rewrote reality and law. And if we do rejoinings without death, that also means that nobody is fully complete. How would we ever go against someone like that?

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Yes a lot can happen and yes sometimes new lore changes our perspective a bit but what you want is imo not something possible and would make no sense in this story. And even if some things change they have made it clear again and again that the theme is that people should go on and not stick to the past. And with saving the first and showing this as good I doubt they somehow would turn around and rejoin worlds anyway.

You can speculate anything but there are some theories which will make more sense then others because they are rooted with at least some facts. I could also go and say that at the end of the story the WoL wakes up and sees that he/she is in the real world and all of it was a dream which they got while falling asleep when they played FF14 online. I mean theoretically SE could go that way but it makes no sense at all for them to do that.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

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Like i said we just have to wait and see what happens between 5.1 to 6.0.

There is a lot of things we know now that may be revealed to be a lie during these moments and what we believe is not possible maybe possible in the end.

There is a saying in Guild Wars 2 from the Priory Order being "History never lies but Historians do."

In our perspective now we are only seeing things from Historians perspective of events but not the actual history itself. Everything we are told to keep things the way they are and rejoining is a bad idea because it only cause issues with no positive results is still through Historians perspective of things but not the actual History of the events and Historians tend to twist the truth or miss certain truth about what really happened in History. It is part of 5.0 plot being to question the things we know and what are the things we are missing which I expect to be greatly expanded on through 5.1 to 6.0.

We most likely won't see the Truth until maybe between 5.2 to 6.0 since currently I expect that the only way we will ever know the Truth is through the Original Soul's memories since Hydaelyn does not want anyone to know about the Original World and Ascians only want to tell people the parts of the Original World History they know about that benefits them only.

I expect 5.1 to be one of this "cliffhanger" plots that starts the question but does not answer anything because of "cliffhanger for hype" reasons for 5.2 MSQ or sometime between 5.3 to 5.55 MSQ plot.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Like i said we just have to wait and see what happens between 5.1 to 6.0.

There is a lot of things we know now that may be revealed to be a lie during these moments and what we believe is not possible maybe possible in the end.

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"Anything could happen"... but only if the writers want it to happen and think it would be the best way to conclude the story. What best fits the themes that have been building all this time.

The Rejoining will only become necessary if the writers think it is a better ending than defeating the Ascians (and/or whatever else) and saving all the worlds to continue their individual existences.

There is plenty of room for further revelations without resorting to this particular one.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

I expect that the only way we will ever know the Truth is through the Original Soul's memories since Hydaelyn does not want anyone to know about the Original World

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Our only knowledge of that comes from Elidibus's monologue at the end, and it's ambiguous. It seems more about the 'average person' not being aware that their world is somehow cosmically "incomplete" or a shadow of what it was in the past - they don't need to know it and won't ever see it as a problem because it's undetectable at a normal human level.

It doesn't mean that Hydaelyn (if She is in a state to communicate at all now) won't tell us the whole truth now that we know part of it, and know the right questions to ask.

Perhaps we regain old memories. Perhaps we question Elidibus, or Hydaelyn, or Hythlodaeus if he's still there to be talked to.

There is certainly a lot for us to learn about the "original world" as you're calling it - but it's not something separate that we necessarily need to return to. It's the ancient history of all the worlds, but they have all changed and become unique worlds since they split apart and there is no need to recombine them, unless (the writers decide to introduce that) there is some cosmic requirement to do so.

And in my opinion, it would be poor writing and inconsistent with everything they have thematically built up to this far.

The ancient world is there to provide a realistic goal for the Ascians so they're not just cackling villains. It doesn't mean it has to become our goal as well.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

The thing about the Rejoining is that we have not heard about the method of rejoining that does not cause a Calamity yet.

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There are a lot of things we "haven't heard of" for the simple reason that they are so impossible they're not worth mentioning. Unless and until the game reveals it is actually necessary and doable, I consider a "good Rejoining" to be one of them.

In any case the Calamity is not the only negative effect of a Rejoining - the erasing of entire worlds is far worse, and severe disruption by ''melding" them isn't much better.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

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I am talking about Echo visions and story instances that have WoL relive the Original Soul's life to see what really happened during the final moments of the Original World before the Calmaity. Part of 5.0 plot is about that we can no longer take things at face value only now as there is something more behind the scenes. It is part of 5.0 plot to question everything we know and for it to continue through 5.1 to 6.0.

The most Obvious ending currently will be that nothing changes in the end with the Shards and Source with the only thing different is that Zodiark and Ascians are both dead leaving Hydaelyn to be the Goddess of all life in the worlds 100% now or both Zodiark and Hydaelyn dies thus leaving the Shards and Source to develop on their own without any influence from Gods, Asicans, and etc anymore. Simple, straight forward, and no complicated plot twists since we been expecting this ending since 2.0.

But as I said we can't determine where this will lead now since there are many things that can be revealed due to the introduction of the Original World and Original Soul. To ignore what really happened in these two things will be against the Plot of 5.0 being to move on from the past but to also never forget that they existed.... that they lived. To learn the Truth about the Original World and original soul is important to 5.0 plot because these are the proof of the Past that lived and the key to ending this eternal conflict between Zodiark and Hydaelyn may remain in it as well so we don't repeat the mistakes of the Past so the future generation can continue.

Either way this is how I will end my part of this discussion since, as I said, we can't truely predict what will happen in the end. We can only go by what we know and what we may consider a possible outcome.

You know there is one way they could go about all of this and have the original world be unsundered.... (now dont take this as I would like this to happen but it is a possibility and probably one of the oldest tropes in the book and would explain everything including the echo).... they could have this, what we are currently playing through, be nothing more than a prophetic vision that the original soul is having just after zodiark is summoned. I can hear all of you groaning now but hey like I said it's a thought. Also again one I really hope isnt going to happen unless they want to completely end the entire storyline of ffxiv.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Also on your "truck is like a Volkswagen" analogy... truck licenses are a specific thing for a reason, and if you assume you can safely drive the truck because you understand the theory and you drove a car once, then it may go badly for you.

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I was afraid folks would jump on that angle when I wrote it, but "Volkswagon and Minivan" just doesn't have the same impact. :P Zenos has all the licenses. All of them. He was born with them innately, just like all his other overpowered nonsense.

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I can't see a "kind Rejoining" possibly being a thing - thematically or realistically.

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Honestly, I don't see it being in the cards, either - but it whether it's horrible or not depends on how it's written. The Source likely has room for seven times the population - especially if the "kind rejoining" brings over additional land masses (as was the case in Final Fantasy 5). And as for the "merged consciousness" tack, if it's truly a "kind Rejoining", it's not going to be a nightmarish cacophony of incompatible minds, but rather a smooth blend of experiences.

As you wrote in another post, though, the theme of this game is moving on, accepting what we have and letting go of what is gone. This is something I agree with, and was merely trying to clarify the viewpoint of the "kind Rejoining" crowd (even if it seems that Edwin Li has a pretty unique take on the concept).

That said, as a matter of personal opinion, I think the Ancients DID have a much better thing going (not perfect, by any means, no matter what Emet-Selch believes, but still pretty darned grand), and if the price wasn't so preposterous, if a kind Rejoining WAS possible, I'd be all for it. That simply can't happen though - not just because it doesn't fit the theme of moving on, but also by the simple fact that this is a MMO. It's not going to HAVE an ending. Even if they write a wrap-up storyline, the Adventure will Always Continue. And it can't really do that if we're back in a peaceful era of immortal wizards whose idea of conflict is a spirited discussion.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Continue. And it can't really do that if we're back in a peaceful era of immortal wizards whose idea of conflict is a spirited discussion.

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I don't think the Original World was peaceful at all but the things we are told may be very bias towards the Armaurot society. We still know very little about the world outside of Armaurot. The Ascians are basically dealing with the Remember the Good but avoid remembering the Bad part of the old world due being obsessed with bring the old world back.

As for Season 2 storyline, I do greatly expect it to begin with a new Adventure feeling due to REASONS caused by Season 1 ending with the potential loss of Godly powers we built up since 2.0 (most likely single handedly defeat the Final Final Boss of Season 1 lore wise despite it being a Group Trial Fight) so we can be back to being a Normal Adventurer due to a Price we had to pay to defeat the Final Final Boss of Season 1 Storyline. We can't honestly expect to keep the large amount of power the WoL is currently known for by the end of Season 1 since at this point we are basically close to being a God now.

We know Season 2 currently only has plans to be for 2 expansions after Season 1 ends and from their FF14 can either end so they can take a break from a FF MMO or prepare for the next FF MMO, get updated, or get a Sequel being FF14-2.

As for how Season 2 may begin, my best guess would be Season 2 focus on a mass expedition into a Unknown lands that has not been touched by the Garleans nor other current City states we know about due to the Garlean Conquests halted at Eorzea for so long.

From 6.1 or 6.4 we may see the Adventurer Guild slowly move into create this Expedition Team while attracting the attention of many Organizations from different City States that also seek their own personal benefit from these unexplored regions of the World.

As for who may return in Season 2 storyline and leave the story to remain behind in Eorzea, that will greatly be up to how Season 1 ends I guess. I don't expect the Expedition to main the focus on the plot though since by Sequel Plot rules, something must emerge to make the WoL go on another journey to gather new allies, meet a bunch of new friends, and reunit with old friends to defeat this new Antagonist and his minions.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Like i said we just have to wait and see what happens between 5.1 to 6.0.

There is a lot of things we know now that may be revealed to be a lie during these moments and what we believe is not possible maybe possible in the end.

There is a saying in Guild Wars 2 from the Priory Order being "History never lies but Historians do."

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And good writers still dont just tell us that every single thing we know is a lie thus I still cant see how your theory can even happen. For this to happen we suddenly have to find a way to combine everything without death and somehow withouth consequences to the source and go against our character and let them act completely different.

Also Yoshida himself has pointed out that he is a very skeptic person and wants to hear both sides and warned people to just see Hydealyn suddenly as evil just because we got the Ascians side..that we should wait to hear her too. This still sounds to me that they are not planning to do whole turnarounds.

And I am not sure what Historians being subjective and not 100% accurate in their lore has to do with your examples on what could happen? Historians have no hand in that. Even if people suddenly all knew about the past what would that really change? Maybe you have some people like Varis that believes that they should be complete and perfect again but honestly I do believe that most people would be quite fine with living the way they are if it means living at all..And again why should people like the WoL or even the scions start to try to find a way to combine the worlds again? These shards are (without Ascians) seemingly completely fine on their own.

So my question again: Why should that even happen? Why should the writers of FF14 even go that way when they showed us that these people on the shards are just like us and that they are quite happy living. Why should they change it when they have used Alphinaud and the others to say that its fine to live like that because its their life and they have the right to live. What would be the purpose? To be suprising (and subverting expectations..) just for the sake of it?

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Originally Posted by Alleo

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"History never lies but Historians do" saying is the representation that those who tell stories of the past may not always tell the Truth.

I never said everyone has to learn what happened in the Original World and Original soul. My expectation is that WoL and maybe the Scions learn more about it since the focus of the Original World and the Original Soul is related more to WoL's origins and the Scion's long term goal to defeating Zodiark and Ascians.

It is a very big theme that 5.0 setup about learning the True History of the world so we don't follow blindly anymore as the story has been exactly that since 2.0, to follow blindly with Hydaelyn's belief until we defeat Zodiark because everything is as it should be and everything Bad is caused by Ascians as we are told. What it may bring has yet to be determined until 5.1 to 6.0 MSQ.

As for why thing may change and what it may bring about through 5.1 to 6.0, as I said it is best for now to just wait and see. I have already said maybe nothing will change and we get the expect "Defeat Ascian and Zodiark ending with hydaelyn still live to watch over the worlds as the Benevolent Goddess" that we expected since 2.0 or maybe something changes that leads to a different ending. We cannot say for certain currently nor determine how will learning about WoL's Origins and the Original World may affect the storyline.

I'll end the discussion here because in the end the only thing we can do is wait and see how will SE expand on the Original World and WoL's Origins storyline they have setup in 5.0 ending. Though my best guess is that they won't touch it until 5.4 since they may want to only focus on getting the Scions back to the source in 5.1 to 5.3 unless fragments of the memories return for story reasons (best guess it is due to being more rejoined than everyone else) slowly through 5.1 to 6.0 MSQ.

Now on to different topics.....

If Shadowbrigner is the 80% mark of the Season 1 storyline with 51 to 6.3 to be the 81% ro 100% part of the storyline. Though would leave us with only 6 more new Jobs left for the game (2 expansion already planned for Season 2 we know about so far) before it close down for a new FF MMO or to take a break from FF MMO, get updated into a newer version, just some how magically continue updating, or get a sequel.

I am curious if we may get at least 1 Job that is about awakening powers of the original soul even if it is a shadow of what it once was. Though not many jobs can fit into this but I can only guess it being a Noctis Job that use Armiger mechanics or maybe a FF14 Original job.

It would be interesting if 5.1 to 8.0 take advantage of the RPG story instances to give us a Demo lite version of the new Jobs before their release considering how cutdown the RPG Story instance version of Jobs for the characters we play as are.

To be honest, I don't think that your - quite often brought up - ideas of a 'Noctis Job' are that likely. Not regarding the fact that Noctis as a main character has a special spot and his personal lore for his powers which can't just be projected into FF XIV, there are other reasons. Namely, most obs being avaiable from a certain level and installed expansion only, not from MSQ progress. Your job would be quite the spoiler or just not making any sense for those not that far in the MSQ. (Yes, Heavensward did require a certain MSQ progress for the new jobs, but they admitted it was a stupid thing they don't want to do again).

Leave the armiger and that in their own game with FF XIV doing its thing.

I feel like the WoL's abnormal proficiency with everything they do is their special power, essentially.

We can basically absorb several lifetimes worth of experience from our soul crystals and regularly surpass people who've spent several years specializing in their jobs in just a fraction of the time. Some of ShB job quests even imply that we're starting to invent our own techniques instead of just using pre-contained knowledge.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I feel like the WoL's abnormal proficiency with everything they do is their special power, essentially.

We can basically absorb several lifetimes worth of experience from our soul crystals and regularly surpass people who've spent several years specializing in their jobs in just a fraction of the time. Some of ShB job quests even imply that we're starting to invent our own techniques instead of just using pre-contained knowledge.

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We are in a way one of the best at this but other people on the source are also sometimes switching jobs including a few of the scions. While for example Ardberts group seemingly stayed the same throughout their whole journey. Of course this could be because they were a whole group and thus no need to change it up while the WoL is mostly doing things alone (until some mysterious unknown adventurers are popping up thanks to gameplay). But maybe this is also because we have more soul parts than them? Everyone on the source has at least 8 parts again after the last calamity while the one on the shards are always just one part. Yet they dont look different to us at all. So I wonder if maybe the talent to master so many different jobs in such a short amount of time (and if we take in the time bubble then its even worse..) is not only because we are special even amongst the others but because we are also more complete.

The fact that WoL seemingly possesses the soul of a high-ranking Ancient is also likely a factor in why they're so much better then the average Source-born adventurer as it seems to also come with a higher capacity for aether and stronger ability to manipulate it as well.

The things I'm curious about is whether or not everyone with the Echo has an ancient soul and what exactly makes them distinct from "normal" souls, because it's evidently not too much if Zenos was able to have his soul artificially altered to achieve the same immortality that all of the Ascians possess.

...Though that just raises more questions because even the low ranking fractured Ascians we can easily overpower possess immortality, though it requires them to have a replacement body in their immediate vicinity as opposed being able to simply slip into the void and recuperate without a body like the higher ranking ones can. Zenos might not actually end up being that difficult to put on ice permanently if his immortality is only akin to that of the low ranking Ascians...though that seems unlikely if Elidibus judged him as being too strong to be worth the effort of fighting.

Question. Where's Midgardsormr? I completely forgot about him. Isn't he still riding inside our skulls? Did he see everything that happened during our travels in the first?

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I feel like the WoL's abnormal proficiency with everything they do is their special power, essentially.

We can basically absorb several lifetimes worth of experience from our soul crystals and regularly surpass people who've spent several years specializing in their jobs in just a fraction of the time. Some of ShB job quests even imply that we're starting to invent our own techniques instead of just using pre-contained knowledge.

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Originally Posted by RicaRuin

To be honest, I don't think that your - quite often brought up - ideas of a 'Noctis Job' are that likely. Not regarding the fact that Noctis as a main character has a special spot and his personal lore for his powers which can't just be projected into FF XIV, there are other reasons. Namely, most obs being avaiable from a certain level and installed expansion only, not from MSQ progress. Your job would be quite the spoiler or just not making any sense for those not that far in the MSQ. (Yes, Heavensward did require a certain MSQ progress for the new jobs, but they admitted it was a stupid thing they don't want to do again).

Leave the armiger and that in their own game with FF XIV doing its thing.

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In a sense we are partly a Noctis Job already but we just don't utilize the potential as one Job thus only focus on the one weapon we choose to specialize in for that Job and their powers.

Lore wise, there is a possible way to add this type of job into the game being the Original Soul's powers that has full mastery of utilizing the ability of what gives WoL his or her potential of Mastering multiple Weapons and Jobs powers though as I said, it most likely going to end up a shadow of its former self.

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Originally Posted by Alsbet

Question. Where's Midgardsormr? I completely forgot about him. Isn't he still riding inside our skulls? Did he see everything that happened during our travels in the first?

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Omega Raid was his Final moment in the FF14 storyline so he is basically Dead. it sucks that they left this VERY IMPORTANT part of the storyline for a Raid but we can't do much now since Canon wise the events of the Raid will happen no matter what.

Midgardsorm isn't dead. He just spent a lot of aether helping us out there, so he went back to sleep, and Hraesvelgr hinted that the regenerating slumber of a dragon may take so long that Midgardsomr won't awake while we are still alive. (For the minion, he said that while it will still follow us, his consciousness isn't with it anymore.)