How do we feel about tank damage right now?

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Originally Posted by Awha

Guess what I am trying to say is I know their are other things SE could do to make tanks more engaging to play, but I do not see them doing it and so I go with the next best thing that has provided me with a sense of engagement which was damage.

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This is my concern as well. But given that SE tends to have a decent reading of the pulse of the player base, I would rather advocate for increased tanky stuff to do instead of a more dps-focused approach.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Didnt know only tanks used to benefit from team wide bonuses... duh

Shave off these percents from DPS and see what you will get.

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This is another misunderstanding. Any class that does not provide a group bonus only gets a benefit from other group bonuses. Furthermore, a number of group buffs that existed in SB no longer exist in ShB. A perfect example is WAR; it provided a slashing debuff in SB, which was a raw 10% increase in damage dealt by anyone who did slashing damage (which was all tanks, NIN's and SAM's). But NIN's and SAM's also provided the slashing debuff, so the only time the WAR contributed damage to the party was if there was no NIN or SAM, and if the other tank was not a WAR. Since it's fair to say that a NIN, SAM or WAR was almost always in a party, every PLD or DRK likely had a 10% boost to their damage as a baseline. In turn, this means that the raw damage of the PLD and DRK (and WAR for that matter, since it brought a slashing debuff that is no longer in game) is padded by an additional 10% due to the slashing debuff that no longer exists in ShB. This adds another layer of difference between SB tank damage % and ShB tank damage %. Essentially, you want to take about 10% of the damage away from all SB tank stats in order to get a better idea of what actual tank damage was.

If we go by the numbers quoted in this thread (tanks are doing ~75% of dps damage as of the end of SB while in ShB tanks are doing about 60% of dps damage) then subtracting 10% brings SB tank damage down to ~67.5% of what dps were doing. That's a difference of 7.5%, which statistically is almost within the margin of error. Considering other buffs that have been lost (Foe's Req, BRD's passive song crit bonuses,, MCH overcharge or whatever it was called) it's reasonable to assume that at least some of the difference in ShB vs. SB tank damage is a result of the padding of tank dps due to the greater amount of buffs that tanks would benefit from. It's also important to note that SCH and DRG crit boosts will scale better as gear ilvl rises due to the increasing power of crit as a sub-stat, so you'll see higher overall numbers later on in an xpac due to crits hitting harder and more frequently.

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Originally Posted by Quor

I can understand "it feels bad" but please understand that "it feels bad" is also selfish. Content is clearable well within margins of error right now with things the way they are. Asking for more dps simply because "it feels bad" is not a reason to throw job balance on the line. The jobs are all balanced for the content in the game right now. Fights are being cleared in about the same amount of time as they were in the last raid tier. Without the presence of an outside dps meter, there's no way anyone would know that they are dealing less % damage, because the entirety of the game is designed to be beaten with things the way they are now.

So while yes I do understand "it feels bad," it's ultimately a stupid, selfish reason. Not to say you yourself are stupid, but that this reasoning is stupid. Wanting bigger numbers simply because you want bigger numbers is stupid when it would come at the cost of what is arguably the most balanced the tanks have ever been. Furthermore, as others have noted in this post, comparing across roles is a bad idea in general, and not something that should be used as a metric for balancing damage, so using that as an argument is disingenuous at best and actively malicious at worst.

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man theres a whole lot of self opinion pushing here.

How am i selfish for wanting to contribute more to my entire party?

How is asking for all 4 tanks to be raised back up percentage wise to what they were literally doing last expansion which worked just fine "throwing job balance on the line" It worked before why would it suddenly not?

Tanks want bigger numbers just like literally every single job in the game does, whether its healing numbers or damage, sadly damage mitigated doesn't exactly show up anywhere noticeable.

Why is comparing damage across roles a bad idea? Do tanks and healers do different kind of damage? Maybe bosses should have 3 health bars, 1 for DPS, 1 for tanks, and 1 for healers? The entire problem right now is healers are doing damage comparatively to tanks despite having literally 2-3 buttons to care about, DPS have tons more with tanks hovering in the middle. The overall party damage should be split tanks doing 70-75% of a DPS and healers 50% but its basically tied at a measly 60ish%

Raising all 4 tanks up by 10-15% wouldn't break the tank balance so i don't even know what point this even makes.

I'm not even sure what your big crusade in this thread is even about. Its great that content is clearable as things are but so what? Do you only care about clearing a fight and not how quickly you can do it? That's fine if you dont, but some of us do. Do you not care about your damage as a tank? All power to you but then why are you even in this thread since you don't seem to care? those of us that do care would like our contribution to actually feel more meaningful. you would be playing the game as you always have been. Arguing that without fflogs we wouldn't know is pointless, it exists and will from now on, we all know what each job is doing, its how the game is balanced. Right now the balance is /off/

Saying that how a job feels shouldnt matter is grossly wrong. Thats the reason paladin sat in the graveyard for all of heavensward. Same with monk, same with machinest in stormblood, the jobs felt bad whether it was their damage or gameplay or both.

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Originally Posted by LazyC

man theres a whole lot of self opinion pushing here.

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Yeah.

That person just above this post is giving us a prime example.

(Feel like I have to clarify. I mean you, the person I have quoted.)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Yeah.

That person just above this post is giving us a prime example.

(Feel like I have to clarify. I mean you, the person I have quoted.)

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Same as you. Get over it that people have different opinions. Just because you want tanks to be less important doesn't mean other tanks feel the same.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Same as you. Get over it that people have different opinions. Just because you want tanks to be less important doesn't mean other tanks feel the same.

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Changing the leading digit doesn't make tanks more or less important. You're still going to bring twoi.

And I never said I was excluded from the opinion making.

I will point out that every time this particular kind of thread comes up (It used to be Accessories, then it used to be Accessory scaling, at one point it was Tank Stance penalties) that no matter what change occurred, the overall placing of tanks didn't change.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Changing the leading digit doesn't make tanks more or less important. You're still going to bring twoi.

And I never said I was excluded from the opinion making.

I will point out that every time this particular kind of thread comes up (It used to be Accessories, then it used to be Accessory scaling, at one point it was Tank Stance penalties) that no matter what change occurred, the overall placing of tanks didn't change.

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Dude. What else do need for further proof? These people showed you evidence, the math, and everything. What else do you need to realize that tanks DID change? Do you not see that WHM is capable to out DPS the tanks? Does that not tell you or something???? Or maybe you're just that blunt and don't acknowledge it.

You're getting to the point were people gonna be done replying to your nonsense....

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Originally Posted by VeolE

Dude. What else do need for further proof? These people showed you evidence, the math, and everything. What else do you need to realize that tanks DID change? Do you not see that WHM is capable to out DPS the tanks? Does that not tell you or something???? Or maybe you're just that blunt and don't acknowledge it.

You're getting to the point were people gonna be done replying to your nonsense....

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It tells me that tanks have fragile egos, and that people are great at looking at graphs but not digging at actual data.

To summarize everything I've said so far.

A) If you want tanks to have more damage, the easiest and least jarring way to do this is enemy vulnerabilities. It's scaling contribution, thematically appropriate, and traditionally a tank boon and responsibility.
B) Ultimately, adjusting their damage up or down through potency boosts alone doesn't change anything about their relative contribution. Content health will be tuned up or down by a proportional amount to their theoretical output, even should A) come along.
C) The Omega data sets people reference are heavily skewed by padding. Of all the jobs, the Tanks and the Only-DPS dip the most once those pads are removed and added back to where they belong (The RDPS metric used now).

What difference does it make if the White Mage or any healer is capable of keeping up? To echo the OP in one of his replies, why does this -threaten- you? Why does this require such an immediate remedy?

Why shouldn't a healer be capable of keeping up with tanks or even surpassing them? For both of them, their very high second priority to their primary responsibilities is -damage-. Why should the healers be a significant amount behind tanks? Should they not be allowed to push their damage as much as they can?

You could argue that tanks primarily interact with enemies - Sure. But that doesn't mean their damage should be higher. It just means their interactions with enemies need to be more varied than a healers, who split their attention between party condition and enemy interaction, but in practice, anyone who has played healers in higher end content knows you're mostly rotating OGCDs and minimizing GCD healing as much as possible - AKA they're interacting with the enemy almost as much as tanks are.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

You completely skip the arguements of tanks which are "We all got nerfed from what we were scaled at beforehand." How would you like your job to get their scaling nerfed next expansion? How about your entire role and force other to have to work harder for something that is completely out of your control.

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Every job in every expansion gets "Nerfed" the second they hit level X1 (51, 61, 71) with new scaling.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Every job in every expansion gets "Nerfed" the second they hit level X1 (61, 71, 81, 91) with new scaling.

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Yup. And most of us who have been here for awhile have seen the same cycle come with every xpac release, with the same argument given a fresh coat of paint each time.

I think tanks should have some vulnerability debuff to aplly on the boss at least.

Smething unique only the tank can do.It would also thematicallyu make sense imo since they're the one facing and tanking the boss, they should be better than just being more beefy while dealing a bit less than the others.