Living Dead

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Originally Posted by Gula

So um, when should I use Living Dead? There's a lot of mixed messages in this thread.

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Living Dead's most effective use is in higher difficulty end game content where you use it by itself to survive a really powerful hit from a boss, known as a "tankbuster", that would normally kill you in one hit from full health.

Outside of that it depends since there are a lot of variables in play, hence the "mixed messages".

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Originally Posted by Gula

So um, when should I use Living Dead? There's a lot of mixed messages in this thread.

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Anything except hallowed is a gamble to use in dungeons. But you also shouldnt really need invulns in dungeons/24 mans/story mode raids/etc. The base defensive kit for tanks is really overdone for normal content. The only tim you should worry about LD/HG is for savage raids where they are planned out WITH your healers as a cooldown. My healers know which tank busters I holmgang so they dont top me off before it and the whm saves benediction for those allowing me to save CDs for other stuff and the healers can dps as my hp falls before the buster and use a single ogcd after.

That's the purpose of invulns kn this game. As part of a coordinated effort for savage content. That's why there are mixed messages. If you try to just pop LD or HG in a dungeon you are pretty likely to die afterwards or not even hit 1hp yo use either one in the 1st place. Or try to use it as an "oh $%&#" button and still die after.

They dont really work well without communication and this they are great in coordinated savage raids and junk anywhere else. But tanks are so overpowered in everything else it doesnt even matter tbh. I mean were already pulling 10+ monsters at a time when they are designed to be faught 2-3 at a time.

Just save the invulns for raids and they all start to look more reasonable.

When I see how our war struggle with holmgang on ifrit tb in UwU, I wish he'd have access to living dead....

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Snips.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

When I see how our war struggle with holmgang on ifrit tb in UwU, I wish he'd have access to living dead....

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That's the thing, WAR (and even PLD) wouldn't have a problem with LD. DRK does.

As mentioned many times before, WAR has no trouble at all getting out of 1HP and back to full health simply by critting an Equilibrium and 1 or 2 Inner Beasts. They also have Storm's Path and Thrill of Battle for added healing should they miss a bit. That's without IR, imagine having IR too! WAR is the self-healing tank, it has less problems dealing with healing requirements. Heck, even PLD can remove a similar penalty on its own casting 2~4 clemencies on itself. 2 if Requiescat and/or Convalescence are available.

What can DRK do to help healers with Walking Dead? Go into Grit to add healing to a 20% weaker Souleater? And a very fidgety timing to use Sole Survivor, which may not necessarily line up with LD as it is also a DPS gain? Then let's not forget Souleater does NOT ignore tank stance like Inner Beast, nor does DRK have increased crit chance to get "lucky", or any actual healing "burst" for that matter. Outside of VERY limited ways to heal itself, DRK is literally in trouble with a self-induced "get healed or die" mechanic.

This is not to be mistaken, Living Dead is a VERY strong ability. When Walking Dead is triggered, it already did its job of preventing an eminent death just like Holmgang would have. During Walking Dead you are in a pseudo-invincible state, granted healers don't panic and knock out right out of it with a benediction or Essential Dignity crit. On its own, it sounds stronger than either of the other two abilities with some advantages over them (No target requirement like Holmgang, shorter CD than Hallowed, longer potential maximum duration than both).

Living Dead alone is NOT the problem, it is how the whole kit works together. Since its inception, DRK has been in this weird place where it just can't identify. It has both a damage reduction and self-healing tools (and in Heavensward, evasion too), but it's not strongest at either. An example, Shadow Wall has been the weakest of the "big defensive" category for 3 years, sharing Sentinel's CD and duration, but only 30% reduction and only reason it stayed that way was SE's notorious stubbornness for it to mirror what the PLD has. This is what gives it the feeling of having a very "disconnected toolkit". You can also look at how they had dodge (Dark Arts + Dark Dance) and ability to blind mobs (DADP), yet it wanted hits to land to get MP with Bloodpact, which SE had no problems nerfing as well.

Living Dead is not the issue, the fact it applies a heal-or-die condition on the one tank that can't heal itself is. The fact WD can be "dispelled" early is a bonus issue, but the fact it procced in itself means it did its job so one can let it slide.

DRK adds unnecessary stress on healers that neither WAR nor PLD do. And there isn't a justification for it. DRK isn't pulling half the sh*t WAR does when main tanking to alleviate healing pressure outside of TBs for example.

When a PLD uses Hallowed Ground, all tank-healing pressure is on pause along with its HP for ~10 seconds. Heck, we gain a huge advantage simply by leaving regen on it.

When a WAR uses Holmgang before a swap or something, we simple toss him a small heal. When I heal, I simply leave a regen effect on the WAR and let AoE heals, regens and their Storm's Path take care of the low HP threat. They won't die to next AoE.

DRK proccing Walking Dead means my Benediction/Essential Dignity is simply reserved for DRK. Even if no further dangerous damage to be taken. You simply can't "leave the DRK to AoE heals and Regens" like you can a WAR.

Personally, I am a healer who mains tanks so I know how they work, and having tanked those fights also means I know the damage patterns. But for healers who do not share my knowledge, it is just a panic-trigger. I know a lot of healers that take issue of having the WAR+DRK pairing simply because they don't have 2 benedictions. We have to keep in mind that various levels of player skill should be taken into account.

This is a non-issue for WARs because they won't die from simply using the skill. What will kill them is running out of HP. And yes, you are right, if after 6 seconds of sitting at 1 HP and they are not healed and still die, it's on the healer. EVEN if WAR "could" get back to full, there is no reason to due to the DPS loss. Usually WARs are not banking on the healers not topping them off.

On the other hand, DRK will die for simply using the skill. It isn't only a question of "I sat down at 1 HP for x seconds", but it's also a question of "I wasn't healed for 80k in the last 10 seconds".
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On a tangent:

I have been messing around A LOT in Eureka. I have toyed with a lot of logos action combinations and I have to admit, having the ability to enter Living Dead and leave it on my own felt REALLY good. By taking Bloodbath and any damage increasing logos (Double Edge didn't work in AoE, but it did in single target), I could do crazy pulls and when nearly dead I could using Living Dead and stay at 1HP for a few seconds then bring myself back to full health.... a few times over!

I think taking something similar to the main game where a DRK can abuse LD and get out of it at will wouldn't be so game breaking. LD is still a 5 minute CD and if the healing "burst" is a CD that matches then it isn't more "broken" than Hallowed's invincibility.

Living Dead isn't a problem.. it's the effect of Living Dead that's the problem? yeah ok...

You're relying on another player to execute YOUR skill.
The healers has to dump enough heals into you to make sure you survive (pretty important) and not heal you too much so they don't prematurely end the effect of Walking Dead (which would make it inferior to Hallowed/Holmgang)

It's that simple, that is how Living Dead works, therefore Living Dead is the problem.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Living Dead isn't a problem.. it's the effect of Living Dead that's the problem? yeah ok...

You're relying on another player to execute YOUR skill.
The healers has to dump enough heals into you to make sure you survive (pretty important) and not heal you too much so they don't prematurely end the effect of Walking Dead (which would make it inferior to Hallowed/Holmgang)

It's that simple, that is how Living Dead works, therefore Living Dead is the problem.

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You're missing the point of my post. It isn't the "effect" of Living Dead that's the problem, it's the rest of the toolkit of the tank that has it.

Living Dead would've been fine on PLD or WAR because they CAN remove the effect by themselves without the "other player". If the tank that has it can meet the survival condition on its own, it would be as strong if not stronger than Hallowed. The problem is, the ability is on the only tank that can't remove it. Hence: The ability itself isn't the problem.

The ability itself is the problem. Its going to get reworked anyway as LD is one of the big topics in the JP forum as well and something devs said they are going to look at with the rework.

Yall are just playing semantics now. It's a clunky ability on drk. It would be far less clunky on war/pld because they can self cure. Its pretty irrelevant if it's the job or the action because the other jobs dont have LD, and drk doesnt have a the choice to have a different one. Chicken or the egg who cares.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

You're missing the point of my post. It isn't the "effect" of Living Dead that's the problem, it's the rest of the toolkit of the tank that has it.

Living Dead would've been fine on PLD or WAR because they CAN remove the effect by themselves without the "other player". If the tank that has it can meet the survival condition on its own, it would be as strong if not stronger than Hallowed. The problem is, the ability is on the only tank that can't remove it. Hence: The ability itself isn't the problem.

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As a PAL (if i'd have LD instead of HG)

I could cure myself (2-3 cures needed to full HP) BUT... 90% healers will probably see my life SO low (1hp) they would start to throw heals on me probably ending the effect prematurely.

When i'm for some reason unable to soak or avoid some heavy damage I do use HG in many different instances such as:

- Room is gonna be filled by AoEs but i DON'T want the boss to turn around or i'm just too far from safe zone (if i know i can't survive that damage).
- Healers are both dead (can happen in trials random groups) and boss is about to die.
- 1 Healer is alive, need to ress the other one ( if no-one else can) and has no swiftcast available
- Other tank is gone/unavailable (dead, busy, anything or simply unavailable if in a dungeon), my oGCDs are cooling down, oath gauge is low and i'm gonna eat a tankbuster/some nasty combo.

Clemency would probably just not allow my HP to hit 100% WHILE being hit, i'd run out of MP much sooner.

I'd just remove the "you will die if not full healed" from the table. Or change it in something different granted from the "undead" status

Or you know Paladin could cover him for the 3 tankbuster like we do it so he holms the first 2 and gets cover for the 3. Easy going