Are we as players afraid of a challenge?

Remember also that the challenge mechanics are rather limited in what they can be by virtue of the game medium we are playing. Square has to take into account people with pings of 100+, especially in light of the recent Level3 lag issues that players in the US Southeast have been experiencing as of late. If the mechanics are too unforgiving, or too fast paced, some players may not even see the mechanic happen until it has already gone off.

And sure, you could say "well then they shouldn't be playing", but the likelihood of Square cutting out tens of thousands of paying customers so the rest can experience more of a challenge in their gameplay is pretty small, IMO.

I'm a little late to this conversation, but... This game has some of the easiest PvE content of any MMO period and still people want nerfs. Even the devs are in on it, and certainly the end game culture of speedrunning to grind tomes doesn't help.

My main MMO is WildStar; I returned to FFXIV after a lengthy break as a relaxing side diversion (and hoping I can just ignore all the things that made me quit the last time). That game has some of the most challenging PvE content I've ever seen in an MMO, and honestly I've seen FFXIV players come into this game and have a very bad time. That's not to say they couldn't figure things out given time, but I do think people who play this game get comfortable with a certain level of difficulty (or rather, lack of difficulty) that permeates FFXIV for the most part. In this game, "challenge" often equates to "extremely long and tedious grind", unless one is talking about the very top of the top of current endgame (and even that is a degree easier than content in another MMO).

I don't know if I'd say players are AFRAID of a challenge, but I think the game definitely sets you up to expect a certain level of difficulty (read: not hard at all), and anything outside of that seems impossible.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I'm a little late to this conversation, but... This game has some of the easiest PvE content of any MMO period and still people want nerfs. Even the devs are in on it, and certainly the end game culture of speedrunning to grind tomes doesn't help...

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In Wildstar, is it possible for the party to recover during endgame encounters when the deaths start? because the lv3 healer limit break is looking pretty laughable in the face of hard enrages and instant kills taking out weakened party members seconds after they are up. its like its designed to fail now. (lvl1 and 2 are not even worth mentioning.)

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Originally Posted by Naunet

I'm a little late to this conversation, but... This game has some of the easiest PvE content of any MMO period and still people want nerfs. Even the devs are in on it, and certainly the end game culture of speedrunning to grind tomes doesn't help.

My main MMO is WildStar; I returned to FFXIV after a lengthy break as a relaxing side diversion (and hoping I can just ignore all the things that made me quit the last time). That game has some of the most challenging PvE content I've ever seen in an MMO, and honestly I've seen FFXIV players come into this game and have a very bad time. That's not to say they couldn't figure things out given time, but I do think people who play this game get comfortable with a certain level of difficulty (or rather, lack of difficulty) that permeates FFXIV for the most part. In this game, "challenge" often equates to "extremely long and tedious grind", unless one is talking about the very top of the top of current endgame (and even that is a degree easier than content in another MMO).

I don't know if I'd say players are AFRAID of a challenge, but I think the game definitely sets you up to expect a certain level of difficulty (read: not hard at all), and anything outside of that seems impossible.

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Wildstar isn't exactly a great example, though. The niche it was trying to fill was specifically hardcore raiders who were disenfranchised with the "easy" nature of other MMOs.

Turns out, there weren't too many of those, and now Wildstar is in bad shape.

The likelihood of FFXIV adopting one of Wildstar's core features is akin to suggesting Walmart adopt some of K-Marts core practices.

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Originally Posted by Windi

Also, I'd like to know why you think getting from one town to the next should be that much of a challenge to begin with? Like, if the only real reward or satisfaction you receive is simply "I got to the next town, now I got to do it again for the next!" then what's the point? I really don't think trivial tasks should have any more risk than what's already presented in this game.

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There should be an middle ground with this. The reward of traveling to a place far off, is it gives a sense of the scale of the world. The danger does indeed give an accomplished feeling. I still joke with FFXI players about the first runs to Juneo to this day, 10 years later...something every FFXI player knows about. Granted it's a small thing, but to talk about 10 years later is quite worth the hassle. It was a JOURNEY. I don't think I'll talk about anything like that with this game sadly.

Honestly that goes with most of FFXI in general as well. Aside from daily grinding, I recall fairly well every event I had in that game, due to its difficulty and reward for completing it. That horrible grind to level really made the missions/cutscenes/completion special to me and others.

One note: If AI aggro mechanics came back like 1.0. I hope zones and enemy spacing is a bit wider. I noticed on most modern mmos they try and slap them into tight spaces forcing the fight. You should be able to avoid them either through smart play or sometimes just going around them.

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Originally Posted by Keramory

There should be an middle ground with this. The reward of traveling to a place far off, is it gives a sense of the scale of the world. The danger does indeed give an accomplished feeling. I still joke with FFXI players about the first runs to Juneo to this day, 10 years later...something every FFXI player knows about. Granted it's a small thing, but to talk about 10 years later is quite worth the hassle. It was a JOURNEY. I don't think I'll talk about anything like that with this game sadly.

Honestly that goes with most of FFXI in general as well. Aside from daily grinding, I recall fairly well every event I had in that game, due to its difficulty and reward for completing it. That horrible grind to level really made the missions/cutscenes/completion special to me and others.

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Don't forget to credit the fact that the quality of the story and soundtrack together made for a far grander adventure to experience than what we get in modern MMO's (including here). While this game has a great story, it isn't told in the same way. Here, you're just a rather cheesy tool that is intentionally cliched (i.e. The Warrior of Nodding). It's odd to really think about, but the fact that our characters are some important focal point of the story doesn't seem to mesh as well.

I guess the best example I can think of is the fact that we're generally more interested in the other characters than we are with our own. In games like XI and WoW, your character becomes a recognized figure of importance, but still a "normal" person. In light of that, the story doesn't necessarily center around you, but rather the happenings of others. Granted that the finale for XI's story centers around that same concept, it's done in such a finely tuned way that it actually makes some sense... over a decade of story build up can certainly ease a cliche plot into being a lot more memorable. While we do experience that here, the inclusion of the WoL focus from the very beginning is where it results in being cheesy at times and thus, an odd thing to think about.

One other thing to note is that the reward never changed from start to finish (for the most part). XI managed to keep the status quo constant without players really noticing. Because of the inclusion of things like Merit Points and, to a lesser degree, a need to keep a high amount of exp on your capped level so that you don't de-level (yes, that was definitely a thing to anyone who didn't play), your sense of reward was long lasting. Not only did you get gear, you also kept the sense of reward for "leveling" going thanks to Merit Points making your character stronger. In another instance, XIV suffers similar to WoW by comparison, but a far greater way when you hit max level, simply due to the limitations of doing old content (not to mention WoW has over 10 more years of content compared to XIV).

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Originally Posted by Kallera

In Wildstar, is it possible for the party to recover during endgame encounters when the deaths start? because the lv3 healer limit break is looking pretty laughable in the face of hard enrages and instant kills taking out weakened party members seconds after they are up. its like its designed to fail now. (lvl1 and 2 are not even worth mentioning.)

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No, we have no in-combat resurrection abilities in WildStar, though there have certainly been times when I would have liked one. The raids are 25-man, so depending on the player and situation, losing one person is not necessarily the end of the world. But it's very, very easy for that to spiral out of control.

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Originally Posted by Tolmos

The likelihood of FFXIV adopting one of Wildstar's core features is akin to suggesting Walmart adopt some of K-Marts core practices.

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That's not what my post was about at all. xD I was using WildStar - a game I actually presently play and very much enjoy alongside many other people - as a comparison for difficulty levels given the topic of this thread.

I do think it's pretty sad that there's next to no truly challenging content in this game, but that is the decision SE has gone with apparently. (And no, "challenge" is not "long, tedious grind" in my opinion.)

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Originally Posted by Naunet

That's not what my post was about at all. xD I was using WildStar - a game I actually presently play and very much enjoy alongside many other people - as a comparison for difficulty levels given the topic of this thread.

I do think it's pretty sad that there's next to no truly challenging content in this game, but that is the decision SE has gone with apparently. (And no, "challenge" is not "long, tedious grind" in my opinion.)

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Oops, sorry. My fault. I thought it was.

What about savage mode stuff? Maybe I'm just getting old and my reflexes are dulling a bit, but that seems pretty tough to me.

When I quit, we were doing Second Coil, and it was before Savage Mode had been released, so I can't really speak to their difficulty very much. I recall reading about it as it was upcoming content, and at the time it was basically billed as the current difficulty of raids, while the "normal modes" would be released as easier versions. If that is the case, then I'd say while those had their moments of difficulty, they don't really come close to other content I've tackled (in WildStar, but also in other MMOs). First and Second Coil were mechanically very simple. If Savage Mode has become something far more, then I wouldn't know.

However, that would be a single raid out of the entire content. All 4-man dungeons I ever participated in were laughably simple, and trials didn't put up much of a fight either. The thing that killed people the most was telegraph lag (think the Titan EX landslides), not the genuine difficulty of a fight. I think the fact that 99% of the content is ridiculously easy definitely creates a community that expects and grows used to easy content. I think that is what plays a large role in the "one wipe and we quit" mentality that permeates the game, as well.