Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

Done for now. If you need NIN data or more ROG data, let me know.

Quick question about weaving abilities, how many off-GCD abilities can you generally squeeze in between GCD times? I know - it depends on the animation time of the ability; for example, a jump would take up the entire GCD time, but how about faster off-gcd abilities? For example, for whatever reason mid-fight, let's say blood for blood or mercy stroke perhaps just became available just before a full thrust. And I'd also like to sneak in a life surge. Provided I popped blood for blood, then life surge,and the GCD 'clock' hasn't come back around to a 'ready' state yet by the time I've tapped full thrust, I assume I haven't pushed back my GCD ability and lost any dps. Is that correct? How far can the limits of weaving generally be pushed? I'm enjoying DRG, and any thoughts would be appreciated!

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Originally Posted by Darwyn_Ulondarr

Quick question about weaving abilities, how many off-GCD abilities can you generally squeeze in between GCD times? I know - it depends on the animation time of the ability; for example, a jump would take up the entire GCD time, but how about faster off-gcd abilities? For example, for whatever reason mid-fight, let's say blood for blood or mercy stroke perhaps just became available just before a full thrust. And I'd also like to sneak in a life surge. Provided I popped blood for blood, then life surge,and the GCD 'clock' hasn't come back around to a 'ready' state yet by the time I've tapped full thrust, I assume I haven't pushed back my GCD ability and lost any dps. Is that correct? How far can the limits of weaving generally be pushed? I'm enjoying DRG, and any thoughts would be appreciated!

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You can fit two short ones in (e.g. Power surge + Leg sweep)

Thank you.

I've seen someone on Reddit propose that the suppression time on typical instant skills is 0.75 seconds, but their terminology was non-standard and their methodology was suspect.

I saw that thread as well. I laughed.

Here's the thing. He did it all eye-balling. So many different variables involved with just eye-balling something like this, on top of the fact certain action skills and ocd skills have different animation locks.

I might actually go test it later, but the best way to do it would be to record a sequence of abilities being used at 60FPS and import it into Sony Vegas or any other video editing software, break it down frame by frame and convert the frame_duration of the ability into seconds/milliseconds.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

I saw that thread as well. I laughed.

Here's the thing. He did it all eye-balling. So many different variables involved with just eye-balling something like this, on top of the fact certain action skills and ocd skills have different animation locks.

I might actually go test it later, but the best way to do it would be to record a sequence of abilities being used at 60FPS and import it into Sony Vegas or any other video editing software, break it down frame by frame and convert the frame_duration of the ability into seconds/milliseconds.

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Latency is probably a variable too. (e.g. Like what is seen with Mudra lag)

Honestly, I was initially confused by them calling it "animation lock" at all. In this game people almost always use that term for skills like Jump, Shoulder Tackle, Assassinate, etc. that prevent you from moving.

So then they called it "animation delay", which is a term I've been using to describe the time between skill activation ("instant" usage) and skill effects--i.e. the delay induced by the animation itself.

In fighting games we typically call it "recovery". Not sure what we should call the lockout on skill spam here....

When I have counted frames for animation delays, they do seem to fall into easily understood numbers, though. I wouldn't be surprised if the skill lockout time is something like 40 frames.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

You can fit two short ones in (e.g. Power surge + Leg sweep)

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depending on latency, you can fit 3.

It should be Animation Delay (delay between casts) and movement lock (locks movement) imo.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

In fighting games we typically call it "recovery". Not sure what we should call the lockout on skill spam here....

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It's sort of the same here, but not entirely. In fighting games there are start-up, active, and recovery frames for an attack animation which go in sequential order for every attack. In XIV it's really strange since most moves have 0 recovery, they're 99% startup, and then 1% active where the damage is actually calculated. Some moves, like Jump/ST/Assassinate, are "locked" which basically just means that once you press the button you won't be able to move for the duration of the animation, so to compare it to fighting games: 99% of the animation is recovery, and then 1% is active (the recovery bit is just at the start as opposed to the end). So the best term for it would be "animation lock" since that's what it is.

In terms of sequence, we could say that recovery and start-up states both begin on skill activation. Recovery time on non-animation locking skills is short but substantial.

I feel the fighting game paradigm isn't completely analogous because game state in ARR is generally decoupled from the character animation. You can cancel the start-up animation for a GCD without canceling the skill, though it won't hasten the time the skill takes effect.

Yan im so sorry.

http://i.imgur.com/KUhZZVF.png

Congratulations!

Oh also, I've gotten round to making a blog where I can continuously keep posting my theorycrafting updates, instead of clogging up these forums all the time, plus it'll serve as a nice archive for people to go to, kinda like what BLITZBALL did at launch. It's in my signature if anyones interested. I'll be trying to post there as frequently as I can. I've also got the latest weights there as well. It's still really bare and I'm working to fill it up as much as I can >_<

Both done with Conq 51 Weapon Damage
Warrior Data.
Raw Dump http://pastebin.com/hVeVcMGK
Stats http://i.imgur.com/OZE4LVk.png

23 Crits - 315 min 345 max
151 Hits - 209 min 231 max

10 minutes worth of heavy swing - not sure if this is enough data.

Will do MRD shortly.

MRD
Raw Data http://pastebin.com/6PqsCd8E
Stats http://i.imgur.com/FsnYNLK.png

33 Crits - 310 min 343 max
166 Hits - 207 min 228 max

both were done with identical stats so no idea how to explain the discrepency

10mins is enough. I approximately gauge where each class lines up in damage with the same stat-spread really.

Also, that 312 DET = joocy. Any chance you could get PLD done as well, along with MRD? I've encountered a rounding error with my last test of 51WD, 450 STR, 268 DET with the MRD/PLD. One test has the MRD dealing more damage than the PLD, where as my recent one has them dealing the same. I just wish I knew how this game rounds up numbers :(

my PLD is sadly level 40 only - updated original post with MRD data.

D'aw. That's fine :) Thanks a lot!

updated original post with mrd data.

That discrepancy is expected, don't worry :)

What would be needed for your pld data?

Maybe I could manage to upgrade my burtgang for 51 dmg and run a test either tonight or this weekend.

Right now my group is about to clear the last turn. We are having issues with mechanics and stuff, and a couple of times because of the enrage at less than 5%. In both cases I can't but feel that despite being top DPS, overall DPS isn't enough - we are way too overgeared for this, so it's certainly my (our) fault. I can maximize damage in the first two phases because I'm in charge of staying on Bahamut while the others kill the adds, I pull my weight in phase 3 using the buffs on the first two adds and then on Twintania. Then in phase 4 I'll use every buff/potion again right before the first megaflare, but after that...everything it's blank. Is there any timing for buffs I should be aware of? Should I just wait for after every Earthshaker to pop blood for blood and/or some other skill? Or is there something else I should know, or any tips at all?

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

Right now my group is about to clear the last turn. We are having issues with mechanics and stuff, and a couple of times because of the enrage at less than 5%. In both cases I can't but feel that despite being top DPS, overall DPS isn't enough - we are way too overgeared for this, so it's certainly my (our) fault. I can maximize damage in the first two phases because I'm in charge of staying on Bahamut while the others kill the adds, I pull my weight in phase 3 using the buffs on the first two adds and then on Twintania. Then in phase 4 I'll use every buff/potion again right before the first megaflare, but after that...everything it's blank. Is there any timing for buffs I should be aware of? Should I just wait for after every Earthshaker to pop blood for blood and/or some other skill? Or is there something else I should know, or any tips at all?

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Are you guys using Cover for Earthshakers in final phase? That can be a couple % right there, healers can compensate for autos after the Akhs you Holmgang. Also, does your group stack behind the boss or at some mid-spot for Megaflares in final phase? Also recommend making it behind the boss if you're not, gotta keep up the uptime.

DRG isn't too complex in T13, just play it dummy. If you're top DPS, though, it's time to examine what other people are doing rather than looking inward IMO, especially if it's MNK or NIN losing to you.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Are you guys using Cover for Earthshakers in final phase? That can be a couple % right there, healers can compensate for autos after the Akhs you Holmgang. Also, does your group stack behind the boss or at some mid-spot for Megaflares in final phase? Also recommend making it behind the boss if you're not, gotta keep up the uptime.

DRG isn't too complex in T13, just play it dummy. If you're top DPS, though, it's time to examine what other people are doing rather than looking inward IMO, especially if it's MNK or NIN losing to you.

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No cover for us DPS in last phase, I'm afraid. The PLD uses it on the WAR during one of the Akh Morn or something like that. We stack on B (which is normally the center of the arena) to share Megaflare. Stacking behind the boss (just like phase 1) would be neat, but we already got problems with tanks grabbing tethers as we are - standing even closer would just make it even worse. While I thought of suggesting those changes myself to help us melees, I am just not sure that it would work until I am confident that tanks won't screw up (and eventually blame it on us...).

As for examining what others are doing - yeah, MNK losing to me is more foreboding than anything else. But that's exactly the reason I stay on Bahamut in P2 rather than him: I deal more damage than him if I'm not bothered by mechanics, and at the end of the fight I'm ahead of the others in terms of overall damage dealt. And I know it's not because I'm that much good, either - and in terms of gear we are not far from each other - but this is the order of things in my group, with many more unpleasant details. The only thing I can do is try to understand what is the best I can do to the very least clear the fight, hoping the rest does enough.

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Originally Posted by Tetsuya

Regarding the timing of using Blood for Blood at the last Phase, not sure how it's for you, but in my Group I can freely use it even when knowing Earthershaker is incoming, the only times I don't use it is during Megaflare or Gigaflare, basically when I know it'll come up anytime soon.

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So even if there's the risk of Earthshaker choosing me I should pop Blood for Blood anyway? Won't it be wasted?

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

So even if there's the risk of Earthshaker choosing me I should pop Blood for Blood anyway? Won't it be wasted?

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Every second Blood for Blood is off cooldown is technically wasting it. Other than divebombs, I keep Blood for Blood on cooldown whenever its available, I dont think earshakers have really ever clipped more than ~8 seconds of my blood for blood.

By not holding blood for blood, you might potentially waste a bit of the buff, but by holding it, you are for sure wasting the buff

I think it's okay for a Monk to be losing to a DRG there, Megaflare can mess with your positionals a lot(i can't imagine how annoying the fight would be on DRG before buff, lol), and DRG can do a lot of AoE damage during p3, whereas monk keep losing stacks.

But the gap shouldn't be too big.

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Originally Posted by Arthuro-Ray

i can't imagine how annoying the fight would be on DRG before buff, lol)

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I was #4 DPS on my first clear X(

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

I was #4 DPS on my first clear X(

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In my group it's the same now as it was then, DRG #4, but that might be because our BRD is on another level (he is #1 at 510 unmerged in a sub 11m clear time group).

DRG's actually #4 in our group for every turn but T11 in my experience, due to DRG having LB duties and our BRD being exceptional.

He isn't playing at an optimal level then.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

In my group it's the same now as it was then, DRG #4, but that might be because our BRD is on another level (he is #1 at 510 unmerged in a sub 11m clear time group).

DRG's actually #4 in our group for every turn but T11 in my experience, due to DRG having LB duties and our BRD being exceptional.

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Wat. I'm on LB duty for all turns as well and I'm always so far ahead of the rest of my group lmao. Might all change in T13 though (which I just reached admittedly...)

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Originally Posted by jehuty08

Every second Blood for Blood is off cooldown is technically wasting it. Other than divebombs, I keep Blood for Blood on cooldown whenever its available, I dont think earshakers have really ever clipped more than ~8 seconds of my blood for blood.

By not holding blood for blood, you might potentially waste a bit of the buff, but by holding it, you are for sure wasting the buff

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Ok then, thanks - I'll keep that in mind. Worst comes to worse, I can just hope that tanks keep the tether away from me and activate Keen Flurry for the shakers. Assuming I don't get chosen five times in a row again...sigh.

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Originally Posted by Arthuro-Ray

He isn't playing at an optimal level then.

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Besides SMN and BRDs who don't do ridiculous damage, who should DRG beat T10, 12, and 13? While LBing of course.

I dunno, am on the same situation as Dervy, but i can't say if our BLM and BRD are playing to their maximum potential though(our monk definetely isn't).

I guess it should be top 2 at least. How big is the gap between your MNk and DRG, on theses turns?

We use NIN + DRG T10-12, MNK + DRG T13. About 30 difference in every turn while doing all LB duties, assuming equal RNG.

- As BLM I'll be damned if I get beaten by DRG (dependent on RNG of course) T10, 12, or 13, the situation's too good for BLM compared to DRG. Too much Flaring to be had. T11 my best is about 565 so yeah I'm never gonna touch DRG there.
- BRD, you'd think would lose to DRG but my group's BRD has almost done 610 on T10 (we purposefully wipe with deaths and that's what he was at this week, at 1% before we ran into a wall) so that's the kind of numbers DRG's competing against. Again though, not on T11.
- NIN/MNK, if they're not LBing, and with their higher base damage, they should never lose to DRG unless the RNG situation's too bad IE Wild Charges or deaths or Earthshakers etc, or you manage to give DRG AoE.
- SMN, DRG should beat in all but T13 and T12 in slower groups ... RIP SMN

Hi guys!

Decided to pop here and ask a question from all of you handsome and gorgeous fellows. I have been playing DRG for a while now and main it in my static, and recently I decided to go next step with my dragoon trying to increase my DPS beyond what I am currently able to do.

Now while the normal rotation for DRGs is same always, the openers are quite different, especially the one that I found out recently (month of so back) in the Hwo to train your dragoon document. And that being quite enforced and widely accepted rotation I should of course change mine to match that one, but I ran into a wall with it. Mainly because the part where PS and BFB are used together between a single GCD. I have been trying left and right but it seems I can't time the skill fit in between without having them to clip into my next GCD, which in return seems to lower my burst a bit compared to my "old" rotation that I got from here when I first started playing long time ago. I do have about 127 - 150 ping depending time of the day (sometimes it might shoot up even higher but that's like really rare lag spike).

So any suggestions should I just follow the rotation in "How to train your Dragoon" and learn to be better with oGCDs, move the PS or BFB one step forward thus moving all the oGCDs one step forward in the rotation or do you think that my old rotation is still valid and doesn't cause any huge problems with cooldown usage?

"How to train your Dragoon" -rotation that I can't fully do wihtout clipping into the GCD while trying to active two oGCDs

HT -(Internal Release)-> ID -(Leg Sweep)-> Dis -(Power Surge + Blood for Blood)-> CT -(Jump)-> Phleb -(Dragonfire Dive)-> TT -(Spineshatter Dive)-> VT -(Life Surge)-> FT —> HT —> (continue rotation)

And here's the old rotation that I am using, (I do switch BFB and IR around time to time, usually I'd like to use it as second oGCD and start with BFB so I can more easily align it with PS for those jumps)

HT (Internal Release)->ID (Blood for Blood)->Dis (Power Surge)->CT (Jump)->Pleb (LegSweep)->TT (DFD)->VT (LS)->FT-(SSD)->HT -> (continue rotation)

Also am curious of how to use PPP and X-potion of strength most effectively in the rotation. X-potion I usually would use after BFB but before CT and then push all the other GCDs one slot forward (after attempting it few times I don't seem to be able to do it completely withing the GCD). PPP I'd normally use either before I start my rotation or after my opener when I have first open slot between two GCDs.

DPS-wise I don't have any numbers on me currently but with what I normally do I am the highest DPS in the group when we do FCoB (composition - NIN, DRG(me), BRD and BLM), we are average I'd say not the best around but we do quite fine have T10-T12 on farm and started progressing on T13 last week.

So if any of you generous, handsome and gorgeous fellows would be kind enough to give me some pointers where I should be moving towards I'd be one happy DRG! Gearwise I am going towards the non-crafted BiS and here's Ariyala of my current stuff http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/Q3T4. Shouldn't matter much but decided to pop this down here as well!

Must be one hell of a BLM and BRD then, to be so close to a Ninja on coil...

I can understand on t10 depending on strat, but losing to a bard on 12, and t13 doesn't seem ok to me...

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Originally Posted by Arthuro-Ray

Must be one hell of a BLM and BRD then, to be so close to a Ninja on coil...

I can understand on t10 depending on strat, but losing to a bard on 12, and t13 doesn't seem ok to me...

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I've never seen a DRG (without a NIN) who had to LB do above 500 on T13. Between LB, Earthshakers in final phase, and the massive amount of downtime, sounds hard. On the other hand I've seen BRD and BLM do 510, with room for improvement if they were in lower DPS groups where they got to attack more of the adds.

I could see it in mid-level DPS groups only. I'd be keen on seeing other high DPS group's DRG's numbers in each turns, with sub-6m T10, 11, sub-7m T12, and sub 11m T13 though - I did see a DRG do 600 T10 but I think that was with Doomspikes and the AoE strat.

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Originally Posted by Szhinji

I do have about 127 - 150 ping depending time of the day (sometimes it might shoot up even higher but that's like really rare lag spike).

So any suggestions should I just follow the rotation in "How to train your Dragoon" and learn to be better with oGCDs, move the PS or BFB one step forward thus moving all the oGCDs one step forward in the rotation or do you think that my old rotation is still valid and doesn't cause any huge problems with cooldown usage?

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I personally don't like How To Train Your Dragoons oGDC rotation as it's heavily latency influenced. EU players cannot afford to continuously double-pop oGDCs continuously in the opener, especially has BFB has a longer skill/ability/animation lock.


Also, download WTFast if you're a PC user. No reason why you should not be using it. It's a free download and has an unlimited free trial. I play with 96-104ms constantly. Make sure you're connecting to MTL2 sever, as that has the lowest ping + lag spikes I've noticed.

Now. Can you get 9GDCs in a Blood For Blood? If yes, you should be using a delayed BFB before CT (to ensure you can hit 9GDCs). My video here should aid you somewhat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfjU6hJC_II. If this is the case, then your opening rotation, as an EU player should be something like:

HT - (IR + PS) - ID - (X-POT) - DI - (Delayed BFB) - CT - (JUMP) - PH - (LegS) - TT - (SSD) - VP - (LS) - FT (DFD).

This is also my opener and it allows for minimal GDC clipping, whilst still allowing to maximise your opening as much as possible.

If you cannot get 9GDCs in a Blood for Blood, then you need to use it before Impulse Drive, so it would be something like:

HT - (BFB) - ID - (X-POT) - DI - (IR + PS) - CT - (JUMP) - PH - (LegS) - TT - (SSD) - VP - (LS) - FT (DFD) = Or switch the X-POT around with the IR + PS.

IR + PS both have very low animation locks (or w/e the terminology is), so you can easily double stack these two, even with a high latency.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Besides SMN and BRDs who don't do ridiculous damage, who should DRG beat T10, 12, and 13? While LBing of course.

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The WHM ( -ヮ-);;

Does any one have any bis set for i110 gear + i90 crafted accessories for savage coil? We cleared Savage (overgeared) and my group wants to do it in i110 gear.