Tanaka or Yoshi?

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Originally Posted by Squiggles

again, look at the recent hits to warrior, monk, and XI in general:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...2x/tanaka3.jpg

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Well, as long as I'm just playiing with my Girlfriend, and just duo all the way to the top.. it will give me that feeling that I had with a full party back in the day when FFXI was hard.. so... :D

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Well, as long as I'm just playiing with my Girlfriend, and just duo all the way to the top.. it will give me that feeling that I had with a full party back in the day when FFXI was hard.. so... :D

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lol XI, hard, tanaka XI = hard? lol. just lol

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Originally Posted by Squiggles

lol XI, hard, tanaka XI = hard? lol. just lol

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Back in the day it was hard yes.. now its a joke.. but with 2 people I get the same feeling... Personal opinion is Personal :P.

Bush is to Obama what Tanaka is to Yoshi.

You can lock this thread now.

The very existence of this thread is exasperating in the utmost.

Rapture (XIV code name) was first mentioned in September at E3 2005. Two thousand, five.

XIV was launched Sep. 30th 2010.

That's not rushed. That is a long freaking development period. Five. Damn. Years. Additionally, they actually had video running at E3 that year, rather than simply mentioning "Oh, hey, we're working on something new", which means the actual development time was even longer than the five years already mentioned.

Then the game tanked. Completely. How many of the players here were actually around for EXP fatigue, and EXP acting like skillups in FFXI? When there was actually no content aside from guild leves?

I think the answer will be low.

Yoshi P and Co. have turned this game around in very short order, and I doubt any of the wistful "Oh, poor, misunderstood Tanaka! He was given but five years to attempt to please this unbelievably ungrateful, perpetually discontent batch of self-entitled new-age gamers" commenters will be anywhere near as 'understanding' of any problems that arise, or continue to exist, come 2.0.

If you have so much bloody faith in the man, Tanaka is running XI. Go there. Just. Go. Comparing Tanaka favorably to Yoshi P makes you either a blind sheep, or a sadomasochist.

This is foolishness.

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Originally Posted by TimonLoon

Bush is to Obama what Tanaka is to Yoshi.

You can lock this thread now.

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Bush gave America large scale, open world PvP in Iraq.

Obama might listen to the players, but it's just the same old same old that we see in other MMOs like New Zealand and Sweden. He added new servers to the health care system, but that's pretty tame. He is creating an ambitionless, boring, generic MMO, and quite frankly I don't remember that being in the constitution. :mad:

I take umbrage at comparing the spectacular failure of Obama's "If I don't fix this in four years, I'm a one-termer" Arab Spring-turned-winter presidency to the track record of success that is Yoshi P. (>.> ) Talk about shallow comparisons.

FFXI was never really hard, it just took soooooo long to do anything? Wanna PT? Get 6 people, Wanna do a endgame event? Get 18 people, Wanna get a decent, end-game item? Gather 18 people and kill the same NM 100's of times, with 1000's of hours of work to gather pop items for a 1-10% chance of it dropping and then you gotta hope you get it.

That isn't hard, thats a grind.

Thus far I think that Yoshi-P has indeed polished Tanaka's giant turd... but you must admit if Tanaka did not take on this ambitious project to begin with despite being rushed or not this game would not be in existence...There are plenty of great ideas in this game and with that there are indeed many horrible ideas...but all in all Tanaka put it fourth and did all he could with what he was given...could more have been done possibly... but we will never know because we are on this side of it all xD Also to be fair I do not think Yoshi-P should be judged until 2.0 hits because then we can see the fruit of all his team's time and effort...In regards to how Yoshi and his team are handling everything to this point...they have done all they can in the confines they are limited to...there is one thing we can all agree on though we all want this game to be in its best state not just for us but for the franchise...hopefully SE will do what it takes to keep this franchise alive and make this an MMO that captures the nostalgia that FFXI players loved and also bring in new players with great new innovative ideas that may very well change the genre for the better!

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Originally Posted by Rydin

As far as who is responsible for the games premature release... no one can say 100% whose fault it was....

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Anyone in the business world can say who it was. Tanaka didn't have the final sayso, also look at the release period and year. Notice how SE was actually lacking in 2009/2010 with very little for 2011? That explains it all and suffice to say, Tanaka isn't one in charge at SE.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

I think I would prefer tanakas version.

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what is with you and necro bumps, this thread is a year old.

5 years to make something.... begs the question.. what the hell was Tanaka doing for 5 years? Yoshi has done more for the game, going an up hill battle, fighting the infrastructure place by Tanaka. Yoshi-P is building a new game while refining the old one AT THE SAME TIME.

For the life of me, I do not understand the Tanaka love-fest. His arrogance and approach to game is like the Ford Model T. Great when it first came out, but completely outdated. Yoshi-P gets it, and thank goodness for that.

Tanaka became a troll as of recently. See Neo-Nyzul and ask yourself how the hell you can possibly do it reliably

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Originally Posted by Zell

5 years to make something....

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5 years is actually very little for a game of the newer generation, also FFXIV only went into actual production in 2007 and released in 2010. If you played FFXI in 2007+ (as any FFXI player would tell you this) it was very obvious when XIV actually moved out of the planning stages because it took them up until 2010 to actually finish WoTG, whereas every other expansion finished within a year tops excluding 'finale tie in' missions.

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For the life of me, I do not understand the Tanaka love-fest.

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I hope you never played and/or severely dislike these games:

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Final Fantasy
Final Fantasy II
Final Fantasy III
Final Fantasy IV
Seiken Densestu (Secret of Mana) 2
Seiken Densetsu 3
Xenogears
Chrono Cross
Final Fantasy XI (especially the 2002-2007 time when it felt like an adventure.)
Final Fantasy III DS

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Since you know..he does nothing right with games.

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Originally Posted by Elexia

5 years is actually very little for a game of the newer generation, also FFXIV only went into actual production in 2007 and released in 2010. If you played FFXI in 2007+ (as any FFXI player would tell you this) it was very obvious when XIV actually moved out of the planning stages because it took them up until 2010 to actually finish WoTG, whereas every other expansion finished within a year tops excluding 'finale tie in' missions.



I hope you never played and/or severely dislike these games:



Since you know..he does nothing right with games.

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Fine. Praise him for the past, but there's nothing in FFXIV that I can say he did right. The entire game was designed to prevent RMTs and the cost of the actual player base. Like I said before, he hasn't progressed. He was stuck in the past with absolutely no awareness of his surroundings (other mmos, the mmos genre in general, the what changes had undergone in the industry since FFXI).

That's why you have a horrific UI and concepts like FATGUE, artificial caps on the number of leves you can do a day, and the concept of LEVES being the centerpiece of the entire game. The best and worst thing about FFXIV was Tanaka. He failed so miserably that we got Yoshi-P.

If Tanaka returned to take the helm and undermined Yoshi-P i would leave the game in a heartbeat.

prais him for the past LOLOL Xenogears came out recently and thats a freaking hit

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Anyone in the business world can say who it was. Tanaka didn't have the final sayso, also look at the release period and year. Notice how SE was actually lacking in 2009/2010 with very little for 2011? That explains it all and suffice to say, Tanaka isn't one in charge at SE.

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well no shit, yoichi wada is, and hes been a horrible CEO from what ive heard.
regardless, tanaka tanked, naoki yoshida is the bomb

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Originally Posted by Rokien

prais him for the past LOLOL Xenogears came out recently and thats a freaking hit

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.......for real ? xenogears landed in 1998, meaning 14 years ago. While isn't so much time, it don't fit for "recently"

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Originally Posted by Rokien

prais him for the past LOLOL Xenogears came out recently and thats a freaking hit

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenogears released in 1998 lol dude..... Did you actually think a game that looks from the PSN era got released recently? wow.... im speechless..

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Originally Posted by Rokien

prais him for the past LOLOL Xenogears came out recently and thats a freaking hit

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Are you referring to Xenoblade Chronicles? That was by Monolith Soft... not SE. Tanaka had nothing to do with that game. If you're talking about Xenogears, as previously stated... that came out 14 years ago.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

Yep yep, I also think wada is behind this, he just wants to get as many subs as possible to try and get back what they lost. This is the best way to do it. Just look at starwars

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Now that... I don't know... I try not to claim to know anyone else' intentions

I'm not a mind reader... i don't know what happened

The release could have been rushed in the sense that tanaka didn't have enough time....

The networking API could have been developed by a Chinese company SE acquired, and was so poorly done that it was extremely difficult to code the game correctly

There could have been issues porting the Crystal Tools engine from PSGL to DX

Maybe Wada put undo pressure on the Tanaka and the team

Maybe Wada isn't to blame. Tanaka is one of the most tenured members of the SE staff... In short, he is THE man... I don't know that ANYONE would have been able to push him around that much... I could obviously be wrong, these are all hypothetical to prove we have NO IDEA what happened...

But you HAVE TO consider if Hiromichi Tanaka says "The game is not ready, don't release it"
I don't know if there is ANY CEO who would still push it out.. He doesn't really come across as the "Willing pawn" type

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Originally Posted by Elexia

5 years is actually very little for a game of the newer generation, also FFXIV only went into actual production in 2007 and released in 2010. If you played FFXI in 2007+ (as any FFXI player would tell you this) it was very obvious when XIV actually moved out of the planning stages because it took them up until 2010 to actually finish WoTG, whereas every other expansion finished within a year tops excluding 'finale tie in' missions.



I hope you never played and/or severely dislike these games:



Since you know..he does nothing right with games.

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5 years is plenty of time, GW2 production started 2007 and it is to be released 2012. The game is an actual complete game, not the crap XIV was and which SE had to apologize for. Tera same thing 2007, WOW 2000 to 2004. 4 years... best mmo of all time by many gaming sites. should i keep going?

If you saw the 2005 tech demo for XIV you can tell that the development process must have fucked up somewhere in the middle and for some reason SE was forced to re-do the game from scratch and by the time they started they didnt have enough time to finish it for release date and that is what the FFXIV we got. SE will never admit this or give us any explanation but with 5 years and the amount of money and staff SE has, the game should have been much much better. It has nothing to do with the XI expansions.

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Originally Posted by Onidemon

5 years is plenty of time, GW2 production started 2007 and it is to be released 2012. The game is an actual complete game, not the crap XIV was and which SE had to apologize for. Tera same thing 2007, WOW 2000 to 2004. 4 years... best mmo of all time by many gaming sites. should i keep going?

If you saw the 2005 tech demo for XIV you can tell that the development process must have fucked up somewhere in the middle and for some reason SE was forced to re-do the game from scratch and by the time they started they didnt have enough time to finish it for release date and that is what the FFXIV we got. SE will never admit this or give us any explanation but with 5 years and the amount of money and staff SE has, the game should have been much much better. It has nothing to do with the XI expansions.

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Could have been new graphics engine, new networking API

OR... it could have been they created a large part of teh #d world before there was a networking API,
And once they saw what the network was capable of (Or lack of capabilities) they went into panic mode

The world may never know

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Originally Posted by Onidemon

It has nothing to do with the XI expansions.

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What will happen when you release an incomplete expansion, then pull most of your team from that game to work on a new game? It would slow down production now wouldn't it? It's WELL KNOWN the original XIV team was primarily the XI team, much like now do you really think SE decided:

"Well FFXI don't really need a dev team, so lets get rid of all of them"?

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If you saw the 2005 tech demo

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Tech demos are for platform testing purposes only. Where's FFVII for the PS3? It's been 6 years since that demo, using your logic in stating 5 years is plenty of time they're overdue for releasing if a tech demo isn't just for platform testing, no? By the way, that demo was on the Xbox 360, yet we're playing a PC version.

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Could have been new graphics engine, new networking API

OR... it could have been they created a large part of teh #d world before there was a networking API,
And once they saw what the network was capable of (Or lack of capabilities) they went into panic mode

The world may never know

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exactly, it is clear they went through development hell with XIV, something went really wrong but this only SE knows and they dont intend to tell us what happaned. That being said, it is not an excuse for what XIV was and if i was them i would have pushed XIV's release to a later date.

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Originally Posted by Onidemon

5 years is plenty of time, GW2 production started 2007 and it is to be released 2012. The game is an actual complete game, not the crap XIV was and which SE had to apologize for. Tera same thing 2007, WOW 2000 to 2004. 4 years... best mmo of all time by many gaming sites. should i keep going?

If you saw the 2005 tech demo for XIV you can tell that the development process must have fucked up somewhere in the middle and for some reason SE was forced to re-do the game from scratch and by the time they started they didnt have enough time to finish it for release date and that is what the FFXIV we got. SE will never admit this or give us any explanation but with 5 years and the amount of money and staff SE has, the game should have been much much better. It has nothing to do with the XI expansions.

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TERA network code may predate 2007, and they used a commercial graphics engine also, both of which would have reduced development time. As far as GW2 goes, you only have to glance at that game to see where they cut corners. And crystal tools wasn't actually ready until recently, just look at the huge setbacks FFXIII had too. FFXIV was in the same boat with FFXIII, they both seemed to be waiting on Crystal Tools before they could finalise and perhaps even begin development.

Obviously the mess of UI and servers that SE deemed fit for release of FFXIV were pretty inexcusable, but at the same time I think people have a hard time accurately pinpointing the areas in which FFXIV failed, and likewise, where it succeeded.

A lot of the reworking to FFXIV (especially this multiworld crap) is not a response to a failing in FFXIV 1.0. No, it's just Yoshi missing the point.

Tanaka failed the first time. Now Yoshi will fail the second time. So who's really worse?

I am starting to believe Rokien is actually Cthulhu in disguise, slowly driving us all to madness by reviving ancient hot-button discussions.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I am starting to believe Rokien is actually Cthulhu in disguise, slowly driving us all to madness by reviving ancient hot-button discussions.

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Ancient? Or ahead of its time?

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Originally Posted by bobbygunz

TERA network code may predate 2007, and they used a commercial graphics engine also, both of which would have reduced development time. As far as GW2 goes, you only have to glance at that game to see where they cut corners. And crystal tools wasn't actually ready until recently, just look at the huge setbacks FFXIII had too. FFXIV was in the same boat with FFXIII, they both seemed to be waiting on Crystal Tools before they could finalise and perhaps even begin development.

Obviously the mess of UI and servers that SE deemed fit for release of FFXIV were pretty inexcusable, but at the same time I think people have a hard time accurately pinpointing the areas in which FFXIV failed, and likewise, where it succeeded.

A lot of the reworking to FFXIV (especially this multiworld crap) is not a response to a failing in FFXIV 1.0. No, it's just Yoshi missing the point.

Tanaka failed the first time. Now Yoshi will fail the second time. So who's really worse?

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And how has Yoshi failed? He did more work since he started then Tanaka in 5 years regardless of the excuse. As for the Crystal Tool engine, 1.1 released in 2009 but the engine itself was completed in 2004. It is not true the game was held up because the engine was not completed.... you think they would start a game without even a graphic engine available?

The problem with Crystal Tools is not when it was finished but the fact that it was the wrong engine to use for an MMO, it was designed for offline games like XIII and posed a lot of limitations in an MMO which is why they are using a new engine built from scratch for 2.0

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Tech demos are for platform testing purposes only. Where's FFVI for the N64?

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Fixed that for ya.

MODS!!!! Lock this year old thread.. its not adding anything to help the game.. just more Pointless debates on which producer is better than the other.. You shouldn't take that Yoshi-P Defend yourself!!

this is a good thread with many points in it. Yoshi could read this and gain something from it.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

this is a good thread with many points in it. Yoshi could read this and gain something from it.

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Its not helping the game any.. the only thing I see here is Yoshi has this this this, but Tanaka has this this and this... and that goes on for 500+ posts >.>.

Its not helping the game any and its a bunch of pointless bashing!

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Originally Posted by Eagleheart

The very existence of this thread is exasperating in the utmost.

Rapture (XIV code name) was first mentioned in September at E3 2005. Two thousand, five.

XIV was launched Sep. 30th 2010.

That's not rushed. That is a long freaking development period. Five. Damn. Years. Additionally, they actually had video running at E3 that year, rather than simply mentioning "Oh, hey, we're working on something new", which means the actual development time was even longer than the five years already mentioned.

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Rapture was nothing more, and nothing less, than a tech demo for Final Fantasy XI.

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Then the game tanked. Completely. How many of the players here were actually around for EXP fatigue, and EXP acting like skillups in FFXI? When there was actually no content aside from guild leves?

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Funny, the whole EXP fatigue thing just got re-implemented under a different name, and everyone's praising its usefulness.

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Yoshi P and Co. have turned this game around in very short order, and I doubt any of the wistful "Oh, poor, misunderstood Tanaka! He was given but five years to attempt to please this unbelievably ungrateful, perpetually discontent batch of self-entitled new-age gamers" commenters will be anywhere near as 'understanding' of any problems that arise, or continue to exist, come 2.0.

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Why should anyone be "forgiving"? 2.0 is hailed by Yoshi&Co. fans as being the quintessential turn-around. It's like when voters were stupid enough to vote for Obama thinking there'd be actual "change" without even knowing that he was a CIA plant.

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If you have so much bloody faith in the man, Tanaka is running XI. Go there. Just. Go.

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Contrarily, but it's fairly obvious you don't even know what's happened in FFXI.

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Comparing Tanaka favorably to Yoshi P makes you either a blind sheep, or a sadomasochist.

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Comparing Yoshi-P just as favorably makes you a blind sheep all the same as he's not done anything that can really be compared to in the first place; it's like telling us that Obama needs another term as president because of everything he "inherited" from Bush, the fact is he had enough time just like Bush had enough time, and every president before him had enough time.

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Originally Posted by bobbygunz

Bush gave America large scale, open world PvP in Iraq.

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Lol...

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Obama might listen to the players, but it's just the same old same old that we see in other MMOs like New Zealand and Sweden. He added new servers to the health care system, but that's pretty tame. He is creating an ambitionless, boring, generic MMO, and quite frankly I don't remember that being in the constitution. :mad:

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Neither of them really listened to the players. Of course, we can't let people know this, or else the world might just revolt and turn against the Empire of the United States of Europe.

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Originally Posted by Zell

If Tanaka returned to take the helm and undermined Yoshi-P i would leave the game in a heartbeat.

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I'd hope you do.

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Originally Posted by Onidemon

5 years is plenty of time, GW2 production started 2007 and it is to be released 2012. The game is an actual complete game, not the crap XIV was and which SE had to apologize for. Tera same thing 2007, WOW 2000 to 2004. 4 years... best mmo of all time by many gaming sites. should i keep going?

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1. The company behind Tera stole assets from NCSoft that were to be used in the development of Lineage 3.

1b. Tera is nothing more than an Aion clone.

2. GW2 is already gaining reputation in the MMO circle of having a failed launch.

3. World of Warcraft was released in far worse shape than any MMORPG before/after it.

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If you saw the 2005 tech demo for XIV you can tell that the development process must have fucked up somewhere in the middle and for some reason SE was forced to re-do the game from scratch and by the time they started they didnt have enough time to finish it for release date and that is what the FFXIV we got. SE will never admit this or give us any explanation but with 5 years and the amount of money and staff SE has, the game should have been much much better. It has nothing to do with the XI expansions.

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Again, that's all Rapture was: a tech demo. Period. A tech demo is used to demonstrate the full potential of a new engine or console system, nothing else. That's not even mentioning the fact that Rapture was a tech demo for... FINAL FANTASY XI, not FINAL FANTASY XIV!

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Originally Posted by Elexia

What will happen when you release an incomplete expansion, then pull most of your team from that game to work on a new game? It would slow down production now wouldn't it? It's WELL KNOWN the original XIV team was primarily the XI team, much like now do you really think SE decided:

"Well FFXI don't really need a dev team, so lets get rid of all of them"?

Tech demos are for platform testing purposes only. Where's FFVII for the PS3? It's been 6 years since that demo, using your logic in stating 5 years is plenty of time they're overdue for releasing if a tech demo isn't just for platform testing, no? By the way, that demo was on the Xbox 360, yet we're playing a PC version.

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Thank you Elexia.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

MODS!!!! Lock this year old thread.. its not adding anything to help the game.. just more Pointless debates

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If that's the standard we're expected to be held to, these forums would be empty.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

If that's the standard we're expected to be held to, these forums would be empty.

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At least the Devs can actually make a game, instead of taking 10,000 Ideas from players that all get into the game. Mine as well call it FFXIV: Player's Unite :/.

Edit: Gifthorse/Giftforce etc etc.. I hate you right now... :/.

Debate all you want but Yoshi is in charge now...2.0 will come out regardless of what people want/say and it will be Yoshi's vision :) I am looking forward to it! Tanaka made some great games (Secret of Mana yayy) but he had his chance in FFXIV and whatever happened happened.

I loved what he did in FFXI, that stuff was great. I also loving what Yoshi is doing...with all this stuff he is adding it really gives me the old FF feeling that Sakeguchi's games gave me.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

MODS!!!! Lock this year old thread.. its not adding anything to help the game.. just more Pointless debates on which producer is better than the other.. You shouldn't take that Yoshi-P Defend yourself!!

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agreed.
/10char

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Originally Posted by Babydoll

Debate all you want but Yoshi is in charge now...2.0 will come out regardless of what people want/say and it will be Yoshi's vision :) I am looking forward to it! Tanaka made some great games (Secret of Mana yayy) but he had his chance in FFXIV and whatever happened happened.

I loved what he did in FFXI, that stuff was great. I also loving what Yoshi is doing...with all this stuff he is adding it really gives me the old FF feeling that Sakeguchi's games gave me.

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I agree, and I think everyone else should agree, that the past is the past, the games Fundamentals have already changed greatly, I don't think they want to spend another 5 months reshaping it again.

Besides Yoshi-P is doing a great Job, for the people that don't like his Vision, should just pack up there bags and leave now, because honestly.. nothing is going to change, not in the slightest, all you do is try to start a flame war between those that love FFXIV now and those who don't.

Grand Companies were a great addition to the game.. Now since we have like 10 ranks to achieve, +Weapons, I feel like I'm getting more attached to my Company and nation more and more everyday, by serving them!

Yoshi-P don;t listen what anyone says, you do your thing, and what your doing, is making everyone happy! Take the Feedback that matters and make the game how YOU like it Yoshi-p No one else, just you and Your Vision!

Thank you for your hard work and dedication!

Starlord Ravine!

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Originally Posted by Dragon

Rapture was nothing more, and nothing less, than a tech demo for Final Fantasy XI.



Funny, the whole EXP fatigue thing just got re-implemented under a different name, and everyone's praising its usefulness.



Why should anyone be "forgiving"? 2.0 is hailed by Yoshi&Co. fans as being the quintessential turn-around. It's like when voters were stupid enough to vote for Obama thinking there'd be actual "change" without even knowing that he was a CIA plant.



Contrarily, but it's fairly obvious you don't even know what's happened in FFXI.



Comparing Yoshi-P just as favorably makes you a blind sheep all the same as he's not done anything that can really be compared to in the first place; it's like telling us that Obama needs another term as president because of everything he "inherited" from Bush, the fact is he had enough time just like Bush had enough time, and every president before him had enough time.



Lol...



Neither of them really listened to the players. Of course, we can't let people know this, or else the world might just revolt and turn against the Empire of the United States of Europe.



I'd hope you do.



1. The company behind Tera stole assets from NCSoft that were to be used in the development of Lineage 3.

1b. Tera is nothing more than an Aion clone.

2. GW2 is already gaining reputation in the MMO circle of having a failed launch.

3. World of Warcraft was released in far worse shape than any MMORPG before/after it.



Again, that's all Rapture was: a tech demo. Period. A tech demo is used to demonstrate the full potential of a new engine or console system, nothing else. That's not even mentioning the fact that Rapture was a tech demo for... FINAL FANTASY XI, not FINAL FANTASY XIV!



Thank you Elexia.

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Rapture has nothing to do with XI. Where do you even get that info??? Rapture was a tech demo for SE's next MMO, which has nothing to do with XI. XI came out years before the rapture video was shown at E3. How can you even think a tech demo with a new engine, completely different city etc has anything to do with a well established mmo?!

It was later on revealed that the code-named rapture MMO was FFXIV. Yes it was a tech demo, but if you spend time and resources making a tech demon that is in-game footage, you might as well re-use these resources for the actual game which they didn't apparently.


And dont tell me it was CGI cuz that means SE dropped in CGI quality big time...