Why do casual players seem entitled to cosmetic items added in game?

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Originally Posted by Ardeth

It never took the time to ease me up..

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This right here has me thinking, isn't this kind of a players choice?
FFXIV has had harder content for many years and you just chose not to do them.

In Endwalker there was a time when I felt bored and had "nothing to do". So I thought to myself, "maybe I should give Savage a try when it comes. See how far I can go while also giving me something to do/a goal."
And so I did and I finished 5 of the Endwalker savage raids. at least 4 of them I cleared using PF.
This was my first time trying Savage in FFXIV. Before that EX trials had been my highest content. And I haven't even done all of them.

Point is, sometimes the players have to choose to do something even if the game haven't "ease'd you up".
Nothing's holding players back than their own excuses why they don't do something.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

This right here has me thinking, isn't this kind of a players choice?
FFXIV has had harder content for many years and you just chose not to do them.

In Endwalker there was a time when I felt bored and had "nothing to do". So I thought to myself, "maybe I should give Savage a try when it comes. See how far I can go while also giving me something to do/a goal."
And so I did and I finished 5 of the Endwalker savage raids. at least 4 of them I cleared using PF.
This was my first time trying Savage in FFXIV. Before that EX trials had been my highest content. And I haven't even done all of them.

Point is, sometimes the players have to choose to do something even if the game haven't "ease'd you up".
Nothing's holding players back than their own excuses why they don't do something.

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Of course, but it also isn't something other players roll out red carpets for either.

Look, I'm not making excuses for me. I'm lazy. I want content I can jump into that feels rewarding. It doesn't have to always be gear, and it doesn't always have to be hard.

For years, I was told souls like games blah blah blah. I had played a few, and they were annoyingly hard. No matter what I tried, I couldn't get into them. Then I played Elden Ring and I really enjoyed it. I beat it several times. With that confidence boost, I tried Sekiro. I hated it.

I'm just saying that making something difficult doesn't automatically make it fun. Coupled with natural gatekeeping doesn't help either. Sure, I could make a party finder group and practice and watch videos, but you're forgetting I'm lazy. I take full responsibility for the parts of it that are my fault. I just want a fair share of content that isn't indefinitely locked out for me one way or another. Extremes and Savages don't bother me since I can do them later, easier. whereas Ultimates are dead to me as a player because I can't.

I just want to have something to do and be rewarded in kind. Currently, there is nothing to do but challenging content. And I don't want that. I couldn't care less about a hairstyle. That is the issue.

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Originally Posted by Ardeth

Of course, but it also isn't something other players roll out red carpets for either.

Look, I'm not making excuses for me. I'm lazy. I want content I can jump into that feels rewarding. It doesn't have to always be gear, and it doesn't always have to be hard.

For years, I was told souls like games blah blah blah. I had played a few, and they were annoyingly hard. No matter what I tried, I couldn't get into them. Then I played Elden Ring and I really enjoyed it. I beat it several times. With that confidence boost, I tried Sekiro. I hated it.

I'm just saying that making something difficult doesn't automatically make it fun. Coupled with natural gatekeeping doesn't help either. Sure, I could make a party finder group and practice and watch videos, but you're forgetting I'm lazy. I take full responsibility for the parts of it that are my fault. I just want a fair share of content that isn't indefinitely locked out for me one way or another. Extremes and Savages don't bother me since I can do them later, easier. whereas Ultimates are dead to me as a player because I can't.

I just want to have something to do and be rewarded in kind. Currently, there is nothing to do but challenging content. And I don't want that. I couldn't care less about a hairstyle. That is the issue.

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All fair points and I agree on them.
I do like your example on how you enjoyed Elden Ring but not Sekiro. Both are the same genre of games but vastly different regardless on your personal enjoyment.
So just because one likes a thing doesn't automatically make it so everything else that falls within the same category do as well.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

All fair points and I agree on them.
I do like your example on how you enjoyed Elden Ring but not Sekiro. Both are the same genre of games but vastly different regardless on your personal enjoyment.
So just because one likes a thing doesn't automatically make it so everything else that falls within the same category do as well.

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I appreciate it.

I'm still salty about Sekiro. I bought it on sale on Steam after hearing how great it was, and I'm at the second boss, and I'm just drained. It's so punishing and not fun.

Not to derail the topic.

I just think there are better systems and better ways to get people engaged to harder levels of content without putting the carrot on the stick. Since if they can't, they resent you, and if they crash and burn on the attempt, they hate you more. It's catering to that 1% of casuals who can swim with the current while the other 99% afk in Limsa.

At least you can buy it. That's about the only praise I can give the decision honestly.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

I think the moment my own old ass "finally got it" was during one Steam sale a year and a half ago when I opted to buy an outfit in Final Fantasy 14 over a new game (they were the same price), because I would get more "mileage" out of said cosmetic than the title presented to me at discount.

"HOW? WHY?" are the obvious questions... but I just point to my large backlog of other Steam games bought on sale and there you go. At the time I was far more invested in playing Final Fantasy 14, so the idea of spending anything outside of it seemed like a "wasted purchase" regardless of the supposed worth of a full and complete one-time purchase versus something cute for my catgirl to wear every so often.

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My wife and I did/do the whole RP thing in the MMOs we play together, so most of our play and purchase decisions actually revolve around that, which... y'know. I get it. We're nerds.

But I do things that are "out of spec" in a lot of ways because RP means the goals of our gameplay are different. I don't really care about gear progression outside of it being a means to an end - the "end" being, specifically, how my character(s) look.

As an example: I earned one of the seasonal PvP sets six seperate times on six different alts.

If they had've had that set up on the store instead I would've bought it.

But I'm sure some people would still class me as "casual" due to a lack of raid progression.

This "us or them" stuff about defining exactly what category a player falls into so you can then tell them what they want from the game is clearly "wrong" has always seemed incredibly weird and bizarrely hostile.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

I hear that, I've been running Shisui of the Violet Tides repeatedly just for all the outfits and weapons. Sometimes solo, sometimes via Duty Finder, and I always perk up when it pops up in Leveling roulette (one of the few roulettes I still do).

Likewise, I really REALLY wanted to do Return to Ivalice because I'm a huge fan of Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy 12... but I really REALLY don't have the confidence to do it after my performances in Shadow of Mhach, where I still keep putting myself through Dun Scaith for the minion only to lose every Need roll, lol.

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Having a bad run (or a bad run of luck) can definitely make it a lot tougher to want to press on with your goals, that's for sure!

My wife and I once had an incident where we'd logged in to the new WoW expansion... Warlords of Draenor, I think it was... and got to our first dungeon. It was literally two hours into the expansion being released at midnight, and one of the random party members was going absolutely berserk about people not knowing the mechanics of the normal dungeon bosses. Tried to vote-kick people, started cursing when the vote-kick failed - he was the whole bingo card. Two hours in! It was wild.

My tolerance for slogging through that kind of thing over a video game is pretty much non-existant these days. The idea of dipping back into organized progression raiding actually makes me chuckle. People just get SO ANGRY.

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Originally Posted by Tyintheron

Having a bad run (or a bad run of luck) can definitely make it a lot tougher to want to press on with your goals, that's for sure!

My wife and I once had an incident where we'd logged in to the new WoW expansion... Warlords of Draenor, I think it was... and got to our first dungeon. It was literally two hours into the expansion being released at midnight, and one of the random party members was going absolutely berserk about people not knowing the mechanics of the normal dungeon bosses. Tried to vote-kick people, started cursing when the vote-kick failed - he was the whole bingo card. Two hours in! It was wild.

My tolerance for slogging through that kind of thing over a video game is pretty much non-existant these days. The idea of dipping back into organized progression raiding actually makes me chuckle. People just get SO ANGRY.

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Aye, I've had my fill of similar things, thanks to WoW too no less, and it certainly made me re-think or disengage from content even when I did clear it back then. I mean, I did Onyxia's Lair and Molten Core back when it was still 40 man only, and I was still left thinking I was too old for that shit and I wasn't even 30 yet, lol. Nowadays I don't have it in me to herd cats, especially when a lot of players literally are cat people, so even if I could do the hardest of what FF14 has to offer, I still wouldn't take it to the same degree I did in WoW or SWTOR, my reaction time just isn't the same anymore for starters.

...It's all punctuated by me being a home care provider, so I get to see first-hand how people's age and disability can impact the things they want to enjoy ...or did enjoy... and being 41 myself, I know that can/will be me some day. So I guess there's a lot of personal bias in there too for just thinking there's nothing wrong with having options for everyone, casual or hardcore, but it's usually the hardcore players that are vehemently against it even when it often times doesn't impact them at all. And I won't just chalk it up to a lack of maturity, because that's disingenuous to the hardcore players who are in fact welcoming of all, to say nothing of the players even older than me still getting their clears.

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

...It's all punctuated by me being a home care provider, so I get to see first-hand how people's age and disability can impact the things they want to enjoy ...or did enjoy... and being 41 myself, I know that can/will be me some day. So I guess there's a lot of personal bias in there too for just thinking there's nothing wrong with having options for everyone, casual or hardcore, but it's usually the hardcore players that are vehemently against it even when it often times doesn't impact them at all. And I won't just chalk it up to a lack of maturity, because that's disingenuous to the hardcore players who are in fact welcoming of all, to say nothing of the players even older than me still getting their clears.

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I'll never understand the whole "let's keep things worse!" mentality. Something like bots to help people train up for multiplayer, for example, has been "a video game thing" forever, and hasn't seemed to hurt their respective genres at all.

As for getting older...

...my mother-in-law, who is a generation older than my own relatively older self, managed to slog her way to max rank in PvP in Guild Wars 2 through sheer bloody-mindedness over a two year period. She couldn't figure out how to move and user her character's abilities at the same time, so she'd just sit in an arena and one-finger hammer whichever number key's ability was off cooldown, standing in the one spot until she inevitably died and respawned, enjoying it for what it was.

We had to replace her large character keyboard twice because the number keys had holes punched through them from the nightly beatings they took.

When I asked her at one point if she copped a lot of name-calling she said it happened all the time, she just laughed it off as "people being idiots."

I thought that was pretty cool.

Because I deserve to have every cool piece of loot in this game, that's why.

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Originally Posted by JimCasey_RF6

Because I deserve to have every cool piece of loot in this game, that's why.

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based and lootpilled

Just wanted to say the price keeps going down. I bought a couple with the understanding it was going to skyrocket in price after the first couple of weeks. I've been duped. I'm down 8 million gil already. My kids are starving.

If nothing else there will be players who'll farm it just to sell them.
It is a great source of income to those with the time to do it.
So I don't expect the prices to get higher anytime soon.
Not until people grow tired of doing it and don't think the income from selling is worth the time anymore.

cant you sell the hair on mb?
that seems like fine alternative way for farming it yourself.

Raiders: "We need to prove that savage and extreme are midcore content and that players want to do them."
SE adds new chaotic content, its midcore to them and JP players, also it has cosmetics
That One Raider: "No not like that. Stop acting so entitled to my hairstyle you casuals."

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Raiders: "We need to prove that savage and extreme are midcore content and that players want to do them."
SE adds new chaotic content, its midcore to them and JP players, also it has cosmetics
That One Raider: "No not like that. Stop acting so entitled to my hairstyle you casuals."

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... eh? What led you to even making this post?

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Originally Posted by hydralus

... eh? What led you to even making this post?

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Oh just the standard stuff I seen on the forums here that I packaged into 3 acts.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Raiders: "We need to prove that savage and extreme are midcore content and that players want to do them."
SE adds new chaotic content, its midcore to them and JP players, also it has cosmetics
That One Raider: "No not like that. Stop acting so entitled to my hairstyle you casuals."

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Savage being considered casual content? What a way to start 2025.

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

Savage being considered casual content? What a way to start 2025.

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Who knows, maybe the narrative will eventually will be "Ultimates are casual content".

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Originally Posted by Lilapop

Savage being considered casual content? What a way to start 2025.

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There is literally a thred 3 or 5 above this one at the time I reply to you that says that this content is midcore. LMAO.

I know it’s been a minute but coming back here to add the price for this hairstyle has only increased with time just like some people said it would. It’s sitting at 50mil in my DC now. So no, locking cosmetics behind content like this is not a good idea, casuals aren’t being entitled, and like someone said early on, this item isn’t going to get cheaper because not a lot of people can/are doing this content.

The best casuals can hope for is for this hairstyle to be in the next mogpendium. Which is ridiculous. Sorry but mounts/gear is good enough to be locked behind this kind of thing but not cosmetics.

I know it's still expensive, but if you check cross-DC prices on aether it's approx 25m again as of 4/17.

It's still a bunch of money, but closer for ppl who can save up for house level.

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Originally Posted by St0rmy

It's the same as the Axolotl, people just want "cute" things without having to work for it. I do agree that people should be challenged in order to obtain things that they want. I think them putting hair styles and such behind the raid is a good thing as it keeps the content relevant either for people who work for it themselves or for people who farm it to make gil.

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There's more than one way to work for something then to smash ones face up against a wall on what basically amounts to running through a forest blind and getting smacked by trees. MMOs were the first PC games that went in on trying to monetize peoples time and therefore, tend to have the most antiquated forms of grinding. FFXIV also has the problem that they reset everything every major tier, which makes the value prospect of even doing something as difficult as savage kind of bad to begin with compared to other games that end up making gear progression more flat across the board (having more than one way to progress and still end up equivalent), alongside simply flatlining and making the end game more about actual gameplay.

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Originally Posted by SayahNbolo

I know it’s been a minute but coming back here to add the price for this hairstyle has only increased with time just like some people said it would. It’s sitting at 50mil in my DC now. So no, locking cosmetics behind content like this is not a good idea, casuals aren’t being entitled, and like someone said early on, this item isn’t going to get cheaper because not a lot of people can/are doing this content.

The best casuals can hope for is for this hairstyle to be in the next mogpendium. Which is ridiculous. Sorry but mounts/gear is good enough to be locked behind this kind of thing but not cosmetics.

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Don't worry, it will be added to the mogtomes.

Then you can farm it by AFKing in alliances raids or frontlines like most people do.

I hope it’s added to mogtomes because throwing casuals into chaotic content just pisses off raiders and stresses the casuals out. Hopefully they’ll stick to mounts and gear being the rewards and not cosmetics from now on.

Also people AFK during alliances/frontlines? That’s kind of a jerk move. :/ And certainly not how I farm for stuff.

Making gil in this game is so incredibly easy, I dont mind that raiders get a chance to get gil for just doing their main content.

If its something you want? Work for it. You can easily make 300-400k per day with minimal effort. Unless you just spend time afking in Limsa

They should put more good cosmetics behind high end PvP.

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Originally Posted by SayahNbolo

I hope it’s added to mogtomes because throwing casuals into chaotic content just pisses off raiders and stresses the casuals out. Hopefully they’ll stick to mounts and gear being the rewards and not cosmetics from now on.

Also people AFK during alliances/frontlines? That’s kind of a jerk move. :/ And certainly not how I farm for stuff.

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You'll be waiting about 2 expansions before this hairstyle hits Mogtome event.. I think the first time we say Gyr Abanian Plait from the treasure trove was in 6.35, which was around 5 years after its initial release.

Because alot of these players just plays if for Roleplaying reasons, locking it behind bars, locks away the entire purpose of the game, so does the cash shop of items from previous events that should just be made free at each next coming event of the same type, easter, xmas, new year etc.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

Making gil in this game is so incredibly easy, I dont mind that raiders get a chance to get gil for just doing their main content.

If its something you want? Work for it. You can easily make 300-400k per day with minimal effort. Unless you just spend time afking in Limsa

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I know you probably didn’t mean this in an accusatory way but ngl I’m getting tired of people assuming everyone who doesn’t high end raid or pvp is just AFKing in Limsa. Casual players still play the game and not all log in just to AFK.

Like yes - content, gear, cosmetics, weapons etc should require some work. Players need to earn stuff I have no issue with that. But locking something like a hairstyle behind content that a good chunk of players don’t do (and in some cases actually can’t do because their schedules won’t allow for it) was a bad idea. Glowy weapons, cool gear, and mounts should be enough.

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Originally Posted by SayahNbolo

I know you probably didn’t mean this in an accusatory way but ngl I’m getting tired of people assuming everyone who doesn’t high end raid or pvp is just AFKing in Limsa. Casual players still play the game and not all log in just to AFK.

Like yes - content, gear, cosmetics, weapons etc should require some work. Players need to earn stuff I have no issue with that. But locking something like a hairstyle behind content that a good chunk of players don’t do (and in some cases actually can’t do because their schedules won’t allow for it) was a bad idea. Glowy weapons, cool gear, and mounts should be enough.

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To be honest, the problem isn't that it's locked behind content that a good chunk of players won't do...

The problem is just that the content has no shelf life whatsoever, because it doesn't actually fit in the core content loop at all, so it mostly dies the patch after... So those that would generally doing it are no longer doing so, because newer content has already succeeded it, in combination with the fact that how the reward structure for Chaotic works, it meant that early on it was much easier to get the rewards than later on once the first time duty bonus has been mostly exhausted.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

Also casual players don't have 50 million gil, so it being on the market board is irrelevant. It doesn't seem likely that it's going to be 100k any time soon.

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So what's a causal player? I play on average 3-4 hours a night I will try and challenge myself with extremes, unreal, criterion and on occasions savage. But I dont have a static and I join random Pfs with friends I have 118mill as there's not much i want atm, but I would class myself as a casual player. In my opinion lately there has been more gil sink items on the MB and it's about time.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

So what's a causal player? I play on average 3-4 hours a night I will try and challenge myself with extremes, unreal, criterion and on occasions savage. But I dont have a static and I join random Pfs with friends I have 118mill as there's not much i want atm, but I would class myself as a casual player. In my opinion lately there has been more gil sink items on the MB and it's about time.

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4 hours a day is definitely not a casual. I would definitely classify you as a midcore player (and not midcore as a difficulty setting, as a lot of hardcore players like to define it).

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

So what's a causal player?

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Subjective. But 3-4 hours daily + does high-end content + joined over a decade ago and has more than 1,700 posts on the game's official forums is a combination of traits that puts you solidly outside of most people's definitions of casual.

A lot of people on the forums call themselves "casual" when they really mean either "I don't do high-end content" or "I play for fun". Really, though, anyone who uses the forums is already in deep enough to not only seek out an out-of-game online community dedicated to XIV, but to also choose the Final Fantasy XIV Online Forums instead of (or in addition to) more mainstream social media sites that have their own sub-communities of XIV players (Reddit, Twitter, 4chan, etc). The vast majority of casual players will never end up here in the first place.

There's different kinds of casual like there's different kind of hardcore. I only played like a few hours a week during the previous Savage tier just raiding with friends. Then there's players that put much more playtime in than me but rarely/never touch high duty content.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

So what's a causal player? I play on average 3-4 hours a night I will try and challenge myself with extremes, unreal, criterion and on occasions savage. But I dont have a static and I join random Pfs with friends I have 118mill as there's not much i want atm, but I would class myself as a casual player. In my opinion lately there has been more gil sink items on the MB and it's about time.

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The thread is about the hairstyle from chaotic, so in that context "casual" means people who don't do chaotic. That's how the OP used it so that's what it meant in my reply.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

To be honest, the problem isn't that it's locked behind content that a good chunk of players won't do...

The problem is just that the content has no shelf life whatsoever, because it doesn't actually fit in the core content loop at all, so it mostly dies the patch after... So those that would generally doing it are no longer doing so, because newer content has already succeeded it, in combination with the fact that how the reward structure for Chaotic works, it meant that early on it was much easier to get the rewards than later on once the first time duty bonus has been mostly exhausted.

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Yeah. The hair and tradeable mount have both doubled in price from their pre-7.2 lows. I imagine everyone who was grinding Chaotic for them to sell is busy with the Savage tier, and some of them will probably go back to it over the next month or so, but new content will always compete for their time. Unless the reward structure is changed, market prices will never be that low again.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

4 hours a day is definitely not a casual. I would definitely classify you as a midcore player (and not midcore as a difficulty setting, as a lot of hardcore players like to define it).

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That's where we run into problems though, because "casual" has come to mean two completely different things.
You got casual in terms of "time investment" and then casual in terms of "player skill" or I guess "willingness to challenge themselves".

You absolutely have people who, with conviction, consider themselves casual but spend 4-6 hours a day idling around in Limsa/Ul'dah or in one of those "venues", simply because they have never touched anything harder than Alliance Raid.
And then you have people who maybe play 8 hours a week but manage to clear some of the hardest content in the game, who also consider themselves casual.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

That's where we run into problems though, because "casual" has come to mean two completely different things.
You got casual in terms of "time investment" and then casual in terms of "player skill" or I guess "willingness to challenge themselves".

You absolutely have people who, with conviction, consider themselves casual but spend 4-6 hours a day idling around in Limsa/Ul'dah or in one of those "venues", simply because they have never touched anything harder than Alliance Raid.
And then you have people who maybe play 8 hours a week but manage to clear some of the hardest content in the game, who also consider themselves casual.

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This thread would have been 1/5th the length had the title been "Why do non-raiders seem..." but that would have diluted the intentionally inflammatory semiotics.

Both 14 and Wow have the same exact problem of difficulty spikes that aren't ease'd into on the players' behalf and require a leap to get into. While at the same time cultivating a community on the other side of that canyon with people who don't want to waste their time. Understandably so. I 100% get it, but until that gets fixed in either game, you're left with two sides who equally lement each other. One side wonders why the other can't make the leap while the latter assumes elitism and exclusion. I've done savage raids before, and I didn't explode. Granted, I would never do it in a pug if you paid me. We subbed out people every now and then, and it made me want to quit the game, but that's besides the point.

The point is that this mistake will happen perpetually until someone finds a way to build a bridge over the canyon. And as of yet, nobody has. Blizzard gave casuals something else to do to distract them. Soon Occult Cresent will do the same here. You want people to want to do Extremes and up. Willingly so, but it's not something they care to attempt to fix. A game like Elden Ring solves it by being accessible. Your grandma can pick up and play it. And if she puts enough time, in can kill Melaina with her feet. But here it's either sink or swim. And it's far easier to sink.

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Originally Posted by Ardeth

Both 14 and Wow have the same exact problem of difficulty spikes that aren't ease'd into on the players' behalf and require a leap to get into

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Oft repeated, still completely untrue. The game is full of learning opportunities, the player base wastes these opportunities either actively or passively. What's actually happening is that the player base at large has the "a clear is a clear" attitude to the game, which no design can fix. Expert dungeons getting cleared in 20 minutes because people barely use half their kits and sometimes die to mechanics, because it can be cleared in 20 minutes barely using half their kit, so people don't learn. People on hunt trains having dozens of times killed the same mobs with the same mechanics (yes, hunt targets have a few mechanics), still dying to those mechanics. After all, even failing and dying, they get cleared and everyone gets the reward, so people don't learn. Normal raids have a whole script, with dozens of mechanics, but it can be cleared despite several people collecting vuln stacks like candy and dying a dozen times, "a clear is a clear", and so people don't learn. The Critical Engagements in Bozja are fixed script encounters with about 3 mechanics, and yet Red Choctober will wipe whole instances full of 30 ray people, because people never bother to learn, and despite not clearing several times, will still not bother to learn, in the hopes that next time there will be a group of actual players who can drag the rest over the finish line.

This "gap" is because at some point, for an encounter to qualify as "difficult", there have to be consequences for "doing it wrong". Too many vuln stacks? => die to next raid wide. Stood in AoE? => damage down => not reaching dps check and boss enrages. What many people here dream up as "midcore" content, always boils down to EX level content, but tuned for undersized parties, meaning as long as a few core people know what to do and don't mess up, they can drag others over the finish line.

It's a quality issue on the side of the player base who is OK clearing an encounter with 5 deaths, instead of saying "ah, I need to learn this fight and improve so that I can clear it without deaths". And there is nothing that SE can do to fix that. This kind of rubbish attitude is even present in savage, where people think they "mastered" a mechanic because they manage to successfully clear a mechanic 50% of the time, instead of clearance rates of 98+%. A dynamic that is significantly responsible for the Chaotic Alliance Raid being such an utter pain to do. It's the reason m6s is such a massive wall in PF, to the point that it shook me yesterday to see that in week 3 with better gear, people actually manage to deal LESS damage to the adds than in week 1. So yeah, if people want to get better, they have to start doing the work to get better, not constantly making excuses for why they don't use aoe in Expert dungeons or their 2 min abilities.