They Should Add An Official Damage Meter With One Condition

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Originally Posted by Kenky

Gonna run out of popcorn with all of this back-and-forth.. But I feel I've noticed two very clear things.

The pro-meter crowd want it because of a variety of reasons, the most down-to-earth being "self improvement". Others saying its to justify publicly shaming people for not performing to their standards. The former is fine, the latter works against the request, as you give SE reason to continue saying No.

The anti-meter crowd don't want it because it could cause things to get worse, citing other mmos and their handling of said systems as evidence. While some are indeed correct with its public shaming getting out of hand, there are others that have done it well. I cannot personally come up with any names at present, but I imagine at least ONE exists.

All the while, I cannot help but muster the fact that XIV players (PC specifically) are requesting a DPS meter to be better.. meaning that Console Players who don't call for anything and just play the game are at a higher skill than PC players. (Entirely an assumption, but amusing none the less, what with the 'bruised ego' jabs people have made)

That must sting..

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I mean, you still can get the parses of a console player.

Also telling somebody "Hey we need to push a bit more damage during on the boss since we're hitting enrage so why don't hold Tech Step during the adds phase of P3s so you can use when the boss becomes targetable since all of our pots will be back up if we slow damage on the birds during that phase and we can crank on the boss to make up the lost damage" isn't the same thing as "you f**King DNC so dumb, learn to play the game idiot" is not the same thing. Unless you take it that way then you got some Axis I or Axis II stuff going on.

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Anecdotal. Never heard these reasonings.

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You are more than welcome to confirm this elsewhere at your leisure.

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Sorry man, but I just don't believe this.

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Oh? And why would that be?

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

I mean, you still can get the parses of a console player

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I'm sure you can. But none of the Console Players seem to be joining the "we want a Parser" side of the conversation. As they likely do not care for it. They do "Well Enough"

And yes, I put it in quotations because I know that "well enough" is becoming a point of contention.

At the end of the day, if you're winning fights, does it matter?

Console players not having a meter isnt a big deal, they just ask people who do. thou not 100 % convenient its not that big of a deal, so many have the meter to the point this argument is foolish =p

Again, all this stuff is already rampent in game. Alot of these people really just dont want to be shamed and biggest argument is really the rule to not be allowed to say anything rather than the dmg meter.

These are people that instead of telling someone politely that they are not ready, would rather just do things behind the players back and isolate them leaving wondering why? thats kinder to them

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

You are more than welcome to confirm this elsewhere at your leisure.

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Don't need to since I've been playing it for years and have never heard that as being a reason people quit. But you can just ask them yourself and find out :P

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

..which, over time, fostered a growing, hyper competitive, abusive, toxic and hostile atmosphere, combined with a lackluster and apathetic moderation team more prone to blaming those being abused, rather than taking any action to curtail said behaviour.

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Step 1:

Certain players take advantage of more lenient invite requirements early in an expansion (before jadedness as the following behavior causes ilvl to be jacked inaccessibly high in hopes of at least compensating for poor performance per ilvl) to join content far above what they're prepared for.

Step 2:

Said players demonstrate this by doing, say, the damage typical of someone 30 item levels lower. There are enough of these players to cause a wipe to the boss's enrage.

Step 3:

After 2-3 wipes, at which point such could no longer be a fluke, the raid leader kicks those who are clearly underprepared.

Step 4:

Toxicity. Sudden and everywhere. By which we refer to the kicking, of course. Not for expecting to be carried, essentially line-cutting, or wasting others' time in doing so. Naturally. No, they were "abused". Those who want to do Heroic raids with those who could, at the least, do a bit more than would be expected from Normal raids, were the *ssholes for expecting others to follow an honor system.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Anecdotal. Never heard these reasonings.

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Your logic is just as anecdotal.

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Originally Posted by Hoodcat

Alot of these people really just dont want to be shamed and biggest argument is really the rule to not be allowed to say anything rather than the dmg meter.

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If SE did release an official damage meter, I'm sure the rule to not be allowed to say anything would remain in place. It's a good idea to let the player decide whether they want to opt in or out of damage parsing.

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Originally Posted by Kenky

I'm sure you can. But none of the Console Players seem to be joining the "we want a Parser" side of the conversation. As they likely do not care for it. They do "Well Enough"

And yes, I put it in quotations because I know that "well enough" is becoming a point of contention.

At the end of the day, if you're winning fights, does it matter?

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Not really but console players that are still looking up class guides and other information that is ultimately informed to a degree by information gathered by FFlogs. Again, I'd like more if they modify the combat log so you could just upload that. Many people have ACT so they can live log to get more detailed information, including healing, mitigation, and damage taken information.

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

Your logic is just as anecdotal.

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Good, I see you understand how discorse works when there is not actual metric data displaying these kinds of things. The sky is also blue but is sometimes other colors too.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Don't need to since I've been playing it for years and have never heard that as being a reason people quit. But you can just ask them yourself and find out :P

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Im sure that there are many things you havent heard or seen. Doesnt mean they didnt happen. Doesnt mean they arent true. Just means your experiences and mine are different..then again, maybe you've never asked a guild full of people in voice what their vanilla experiences were like, then just shut up and listened.

I did. Maybe you should as well. Ask them.

Ive seen a lot and heard a lot you never have...doesnt mean none of it happened, does it?

But the problem is with that, is the level you need the meter is already doing this. its been doing it for years, its already happening =p

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

Your logic is just as anecdotal.

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Right, because there isn't literal metric data polling wow plays on why they left with a validated test with a measure and defined factor structure. Good job understanding basic human interaction.

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Originally Posted by Frostyyy

Thank you for providing me prime entertainment while maintenance is happening with your historically terrible takes that you have made with no grounds in reality or evidence. You then try to take the high road and call this entire forum academic when you realize you're wrong, have been called out for lying, and providing fake evidence on a matter that you do not understand. While everyone is entitled to their opinions, you have basically discredited yourself and any credibility that your opinions held by belligerently insisting you have evidence on toxicity in the game caused by parsing and DPS meters, but then backing off when questioned on it. Before you come and try to make arguments on topics you don't fully understand, please learn more about what you're arguing about. Please understand this is not me trying demean you on a personal level but you are attempting to mislead people on what the high end community is like. It is obvious that throughout this forum you have lied a multitude of times to back your argument. Please stop bringing up points of he said she said and other hearsay to make it seem like the issue is bigger than it is. The casual side of the community are the ones mass reporting people, not the high end raiders. Please, check yourself.

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I may want to use your reply here as my sig sometime soon… :D

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Good, I see you understand how discorse works when there is not actual metric data displaying these kinds of things. The sky is also blue but is sometimes other colors too.

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My experience reflects their own, since the start of TBC. Your own experiences, by your words, do not. That does not discount, nor disarm their argument nor their reasoning that was cited. Their life experiences are not your own. Nor do my own experiences, match up with what you state your own to be. To bring forth a portrayal that your own experiences trump that of others, and is some unyielding truth, is disingenuous, at best.

We agree to disagree.

Take care, and Be Well.

Using a personal attack on another player as your forum sig might not be a good idea.

Right but that just says your sample is not sufficient in order to index and assess a population, which mine very well be. I'm just saying that the current wow forums aren't filled with talks about DPS meters. More about quitting the game because Ion thinks it's a meaningful choice to hate yourself for RNG loot.

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

My experience reflects their own, since the start of TBC. Your own experiences, by your words, do not. That does not discount, nor disarm their argument nor their reasoning that was cited. Their life experiences are not your own. Nor do my own experiences, match up with what you state your own to be. To bring forth a portrayal that your own experiences trump that of others, and is some unyielding truth, is disingenuous, at best.

We agree to disagree.

Take care, and Be Well.

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Draco, each is entitled to their opinion. Wont have it any other way. But telling me that they havent seen or heard what I have, and then saying therefore it didnt happen is...disingenuous

And kinda silly. tbh.

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

My experience reflects their own, since the start of TBC. Your own experiences, by your words, do not. That does not discount, nor disarm their argument nor their reasoning that was cited. Their life experiences are not your own. Nor do my own experiences, match up with what you state your own to be. To bring forth a portrayal that your own experiences trump that of others, and is some unyielding truth, is disingenuous, at best.

We agree to disagree.

Take care, and Be Well.

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I've never had a more eloquent means of saying "yeah but that's just your opinion man".

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Draco, each is entitled to their opinion. Wont have it any other way. But telling me that they havent seen or heard what I have, and then saying therefore it didnt happen is...disingenuous

And kinda silly. tbh.

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I agree. Like I said, my own experiences match up with yours. But some folks in this world hold up their own views as the only truth. Which, as you said, is quite silly.

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

My experience reflects their own, since the start of TBC. Your own experiences, by your words, do not.

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Essentially: 'You didn't see what I saw so either your words don't match your experience (i.e., you're lying) or you haven't been playing for as long as I have.' ???

Mate, you literally made a claim significantly contrary to poll data gathered over the last 15 years. Pretending that Yeasty can't have his/her own experience just because it doesn't match your own isn't even relevant here.



But, fine, let's take a look at those anecdotes:

You say you saw toxicity surrounding parsers. I'll give that the benefit of the doubt.

Tell me, though: At what point toxicity over a player failing to do their job to such a degree that the remaining players' gametime over a given piece of group content was improved, despite whatever guilt they may feel, by kicking a particular player turn into "toxicity caused by parsers".

Would it somehow have suddenly been all roses and harmony, the silence contented rather than merely angrily begrudging, so long as their failing to do their part went ill-defined?

This is TBC we're talking about, after all. If player in question were anything but a pure DPS, there would be too many other factors involved that could give away their falling so short that people would rather take the time to replace --shouting, summoning, etc. all included-- than just deal with it. WoW's early, EQ2-esque group content design did plenty to make it preferable to just deal with underperformers than replace; to be called out for underperformance would require an extent that'd be very difficult to cover up just by blinding one's party to throughput.

I think if DPS parsing and toxicity were some of the primary reasons that wow's sub numbers were plummeting, Blizz would try to do something about that. But I don't hear much from Blizz's devs about DPS parsing and toxicity.

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Tell me, though: At what point toxicity over a player failing to do their job to such a degree that the remaining players' gametime over a given piece of group content was improved, despite whatever guilt they may feel, by kicking a particular player turn into "toxicity caused by parsers

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Sooo are you are saying that regardless of what the toxic player actuilly did, the person they were abusing.."deserved it'?

Under what conditions, pray tell, is it acceptable to literally be foaming at the mouth enraged over a video game?

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Sooo are you are saying that regardless of what the toxic player actuilly did, the person they were abusing.."deserved it'?

Under what conditions, pray tell, is it acceptable to literally be foaming at the mouth enraged over a video game?

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No, I'm asking why you're blaming the parser for someone making the run so much harder for their teammates that it was worth the several minutes to replace said player than to just finish the run, or on the rare occasion, people asking someone half-asleep at the wheel in content that'd be made less stressful for everyone else to actually... do what can be reasonably expected of someone who chose to participate in that content.

This isn't even a matter of "I've a terminal disease and would have been happier had I not known about it." It's just a matter of being informed, in this case, of a gross imbalance in effort put in for rewards earned. As with any other form of information, people can choose to do with that information what they will. That a group may find it easier to replace someone despite the high cost of doing so, or thought it was worth asking that person to do more than half the throughput of their partners in role despite being answerable to the same proddings themselves in the future, says more about that already extant conflict than it does about their having had real information, instead of mere guesswork or their own myopic finger-pointing, to go off of.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

No, I'm asking why you're blaming the parser for someone making the run so much harder for their teammates that it was worth the several minutes to replace said player than to just finish the run.

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enabler
[ɪˈneɪblə, ɛˈneɪblə]
NOUN
a person or thing that makes something possible

should just do away with chat then, that enables em to bully people yeah?

If you want to see a similar conversation at Lost Ark forum, the mods responded and are more forward about the game's stance on dps meter:

"In terms of our rules, any app that modifies the game and/or interacts with it in a way that provides information that is otherwise not available to players is not approved"

Lost Ark forum: Hints for Damage meter

Lost ark also at the end of scenarios publishes % overall dmg. MVP's ect That can also be used as a tool to play better,

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

enabler
[ɪˈneɪblə, ɛˈneɪblə]
NOUN
a person or thing that makes something possible

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But, again, did the parser enable that?

It took some serious stress to one's team back in TBC for them to go to the trouble of exiting, shouting, inviting, summoning, and reentering to replace you. It seems unlikely that a parser would uniquely enable a group to (want to) kick someone stressing out their team to that degree.

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Originally Posted by technole

If you want to see a similar conversation at Lost Ark forum, the mods responded and are more forward about the game's stance on dps meter:

"In terms of our rules, any app that modifies the game and/or interacts with it in a way that provides information that is otherwise not available to players is not approved"

Lost Ark forum: Hints for Damage meter

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.......ok?

Literally just ignore VelKallor
They and their opinions are entirely irrelevant in this conversation
They just post emotional and nonsensical garbage to derail threads until their post count is done for the day and then log off

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Player reports went unanswered or ignored, and instead of actually doing anything to deal with the situation, the ingame mods chose to sit there and allow it to continue in this fashion.

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See, that's the immediate and obvious difference that you're either missing or wilfully overlooking.

SE don't tend to ignore player reports at least from what I've seen. I had friends literally eat a ban for asking to be kicked from a party so they could raid.

Adding a DPS meter doesn't automatically change that stance and I don't get why you would suggest that it would.

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Originally Posted by SwingLifeAway

Literally just ignore VelKallor
They and their opinions are entirely irrelevant in this conversation
They just post emotional and nonsensical garbage to derail threads until their post count is done for the day and then log off

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Thats your opinion. Little more.

My reasoning on the issue, my logic behind it, based on literally decades of gaming experience in all kinds of MMO's, is quite sound. That a brand new game like Lost Ark has chosen to either follow, or to be in accordance with, the FF 14's dev team, is in itself a telling factor.

What many of you dont see..or choose not to see, is that the social factors in such "tools" have been shown to enable toxicity, to encourage bad and antisocial behaviour as can be witnessed elsewhere. That a new game that seems to be enjoying a measure of success, has decided that they too will not allow "officlal" parsers may indeed be a trend we will see in later developement of other MMO's.

Certainly, as can also be seen by the comments on that forum thread alone, not to mention the devs actual intent, they too have deduced that enabling such behaviour is not something they wish to see in their communities.

Games and the paradigms under which they work have advanced in many areas since the early days of MMO design, with the lessons of the past not only learned, but heeded. Games developement of its own accord is both iterative, in working upon current trends, as well as looking at how other MMO's have also progressed...or more to the point, REGRESSED.

I am intrigued as to how they came to this decision..and I approve and agree with their specific intent. One must look at WHY they have chosen this path in managing their communities, as well as what they have done.

No issue in game developement is ever cut and dry, black or white, look more to the myriad of factors which drove that decision. This in fact may be an ongoing trend, I will be interested to see how Lost Ark evolves over the next few years.

Times change, and gaming, as both a pastime and a social construct, must change with it.

To borrow a line from one of my tutors:

"Adapt...or perish"

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Originally Posted by Kenky

Do you.. Do you think this attitude is helping your case? Even a little bit?

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Let's take three hypothetical scenarios.

1. A party wipes. Someone pipes up, screaming obscenities at someone for doing low damage and posts logs.
2. Party wipes. Someone asks if the low damage player wants some pointers. Doesn't say how they know the damage was low, but asks if they can help anyway.
3. Party does a run. Someone in that party streams for friends. They forget to turn their EVIL ILLEGAL PARSER off. They say nothing, and don't spit negativity at any player at all, in game chat or on voice.

Which of these scenarios would you report? In the past, it sounded like the community would rightly report the first, probably not the second and why on earth the third?

The forums over the last week have given me the impression they'd happily, zealously report all three. Which suggests to me that harassment isn't what they dislike. It's facts. Math. Statistics. Numbers is what they hate, and by God you'd better not even SMELL like you're collecting them because not only do You Not Pay My Sub, but I'm going to keep my eagle eye on everyone else's sub like a nosy litigious old lady.

So let's have a new scenario.

4. A party wipes. Someone asks if they can give advice on how to do mechanics, since they saw a few missteps.

Why isn't this against the TOS? Sure it's not damage numbers. Which are freely available in the combat log, BTW. But you just saw someone's performance. You just analyzed it. In your eyes and your brain. You just...JUDGED someone for messing up. And worse still, you dared to call them out on it. Doing mechanics correctly is just as important as dealing damage, and both are performance metrics. One is just really easy to spot unaided.

Tell me how this is qualitatively different from reading their damage and making suggestions on that. Because I've already given my stance on the TOS-encouraged naked hypocrisy that toxic casuals revel in.

Lost Ark used as an example again, the game that ranks a person as MVP with dmg and bascially has a damage meter with the % dmg done after the fight.

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Originally Posted by Hoodcat

Lost Ark used as an example again, the game that ranks a person as MVP with dmg and bascially has a damage meter with the % dmg done after the fight.

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I am simply referring back to that forum thread, which I note with amusement, seems to mirror this one.

Plus ca change.....

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Adding a DPS meter doesn't automatically change that stance and I don't get why you would suggest that it would.

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As has been said earlier, the SOURCE of a lot of that behaviour has been dps meter harassment and bullying. Remove that and a lot of problems go away.

Cause = effect.

It would be VERY interesting to see what would happen if Blizzard adopted the same idea. Get rid of dps meters..I confess I would be VERY curious to see how that would pan out. What was it Mustapha Mond called it?..

Oh yes: "An experiment in rebottling"

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

See, that's the immediate and obvious difference that you're either missing or wilfully overlooking.

SE don't tend to ignore player reports at least from what I've seen. I had friends literally eat a ban for asking to be kicked from a party so they could raid.

Adding a DPS meter doesn't automatically change that stance and I don't get why you would suggest that it would.

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Authoritarians never give a crap about the implications of what they want. If they dislike something, then it *will* cause problems. Any justification will do. It's not just that they don't want it themselves. You must also be banned from having it. It's for the Greater Good after all.

Pathologically incapable of minding their own business. What's on your computer is their business if they don't like it, after all.

I was on the live and let live bandwagon until the frothing anti-parser crusaders decided to cross a line. What the hell more did they want? It's bannable to harass them. It's bannable to tell them their numbers. It's bannable to tell them *your* numbers. It's bannable to speak to them in basically any way that annoys or upsets them. But now they're weaponizing the rules to attack people they're not even interacting with, who aren't speaking to them, about them, or even doing content they'd touch in a million years. That's crossed too close to trying to control people's thoughts, which is literally something cackling cartoonishly evil people do.

Now it's not a don't ask don't tell scenario. FFXIV has a bunch of Puritanical witch burning killjoys, and they can bite me.

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Authoritarians never give a crap about the implications of what they want. If they dislike something, then it *will* cause problems. Any justification will do. It's not just that they don't want it themselves. You must also be banned from having it. It's for the Greater Good after all.

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..you didnt read the TOS before clicking "I accept"? That part about "third party programs'?

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Pathologically incapable of minding their own business. What's on your computer is their business if they don't like it, after all.

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The moment you start throwing dps numbers about in contravention of the TOS, it IS their business.

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It's bannable to tell them *your* numbers.

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Yes, it is , and has been so for a very long time.

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It's bannable to harass them.

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Yes, definitely. It is.

Solution:

Use the parser to analyse your own performance.....as long as you DONT harass others. LEAVE EVERYONE ELSE ALONE.

How hard is that?