What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Disappointing, but not surprising. The Scions have always been varying levels of zealots towards Hydaelyn. Even after discovering they were primals, Y'shtola insisted Zodiark was the more dangerous of the two. These are the same people who glossed over the fact that Hydaelyn told Minfilia to kill herself and then abandoned her in the aetherial sea until she offered herself up as a vessel. (The actual quote from Minfilia is, "There, adrift and alone, Her voice silent once more, I prayed...")

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I think they’re issue with it began and ended with Minfilias thoughts on the matter, where she showed no ill will towards Hydaelyn for it, nor blame. Not to mention the fact that Hydaelyns silence was not some manipulation, but a product of her weakened state. Minfilia knew this and that’s why she freely choose to do what she did.

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Originally Posted by myahele

I wonder how much aether it takes Hydaelyn just to communicate briefly from the Aetherial Sea? She constantly talks about being to weak, but then she claims to have kept enough on reserve just to fight test WoL (as if all their trials were not proof enough) and then there's the Mother Crystal which we find out is just an accumulation of aether that build up over thousands of years. Was she just that averse in using those sources?

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Give that using the reserve killed her, and the Mothercrystal was intended to ensure we could reach Meteion, I’d say being averse a wise decision.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Its a bit crazy to me that you thing thats wrong, preventing a species from killing itself.

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I like how you could easily say this in defense of the Sundering. xD

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I think they’re issue with it began and ended with Minfilias thoughts on the matter, where she showed no ill will towards Hydaelyn for it, nor blame. Not to mention the fact that Hydaelyns silence was not some manipulation, but a product of her weakened state. Minfilia knew this and that’s why she freely choose to do what she did.

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The patch art certainly doesn't help make it look any less sinister:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaP_wu5XEAEOShj.jpg:large

Though even putting aside Minfilia, the Sundering was in itself a non-consensual act so we know that Venat doesn't care much for the concept of free will. Let us not forget that by Venat's own admission during the cutscene at the end of Anamnesis Anyder her faction was very much a minority.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I like how you could easily say this in defense of the Sundering. xD

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You're free to claim as much but I disagree. Venat was not only withholding key information from her people but she actively served as a subversive saboteur. Her actions only served to benefit the Sundered, rather than her own people...and even then, she inflicted untold levels of suffering upon the Sundered as a consequence of her decision. As she herself admits, there was no kindness or justice in the tragedy she wrought.

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Originally Posted by Stachiko

We were forced to perceive their entire civilization would crumble if she brought attention to it. Paradise falling apart if you will. Square spun us a web and we were expected to accept it 100%.

She had a lot of options and she chose one that would impact generations of people. Essentially, she chose to play god. That is wrong on so many levels.

Again though, I can't critique too heavily. Square approached a lot of sensitive topics here (Time travel, space travel, etc), things they shouldn't have. But they're not in the graveyard like another MMO's story. Ending a story isn't easy.

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Okay so what else could or should she have done within the limits of the story?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

You're free to claim as much but I disagree. Venat was not only withholding key information from her people but she actively served as a subversive saboteur. Her actions only served to benefit the Sundered, rather than her own people...and even then, she inflicted untold levels of suffering upon the Sundered as a consequence of her decision. As she herself admits, there was no kindness or justice in the tragedy she wrought.

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You are in a situation where people still believes Covid 19 is fake and you are expecting Venut can do a really good job convincing her people on something only she remembers?
/clap

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

Okay so what else could or should she have done within the limits of the story?

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Any number of things, given that her own world view was supposedly a belief that there was no such thing as 'impossible'. Not only had she successfully put a tracker on Meteion during the confrontation with Hermes, she had already confirmed the existence of witnesses to Hermes having sent his flock of Meteion's on their mission. Furthermore, using a variant of the Echo Venat was able to glean valuable insight by tapping into the memories of an event which helped show the Warrior of Light what had transpired.

If that isn't enough? Both Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus were aware that their memories had been tampered with. They simply didn't know what, exactly, the missing memories were. Yet even in the face of being told of the threat of the Final Days at the hands of a time traveller, before his memory was wiped...Emet-Selch stated outright that it was his duty to investigate any threat to the Star. With that in mind, then, it felt rather forced for Venat to conveniently avoid going to the Convocation with information that could have helped avert the disaster.

Given that a Sundered Zodiark was able to hold the Final Days at bay for so long, one can only imagine how much longer an Unsundered variant would have been able to do so - and with extra time and Venat not deliberately holding back knowledge, it doesn't strike me as a stretch for the Convocation, Venat and Azem to come to some sort of beneficial solution given enough time.

Much like how things play out in the Sundered world given that even where problems arise, the solution isn't to rid the populace of their free will, memories and right to choose...

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

You are in a situation where people still believes Covid 19 is fake and you are expecting Venut can do a really good job convincing her people on something only she remembers?
/clap

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Venat was a highly respected figure within the Ancient world. Had she been open and honest, there would be little reason to doubt her words. Yet even so, no society is obligated to bend over backwards to appease the likes of Venat and Hermes when their 'solution' is to wipe out their own race and civilisation.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

She didnt seek out people and inform them of what was happening. Instead, she did the very thing youre bashing the occuria for, she took control of her own peoples lives and shattered them. She didnt give them the chance they deserved, and then continue to preach about suffering and learning to walk. Shes a hypocrite, shes a manipulator, and shes for all intents and purposes imo a monster.

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We don't know for sure what she did. That's one issue with that cutscene. It was dramatic but very stylized. It goes in a few steps from Hyth going off to get sacrificed to people begging Zodiark to restore the world they had. So the timing is very much not real time. I hope if they do end up going back to the Ancients in either MSQ or side quests, we get more exposition on that. There's also a question of what Azem was up to away from both summonings.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

Okay so what else could or should she have done within the limits of the story?

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It's probably better if another poster gives this a shot but I'll try.

Imagine if you go back in time and meet Venat. You do your adventures and stuff. Then you find out about Hermes, drama, Emet-Selch, etc etc, and stuff. After it's all said and done, Venat says point blank, "I'm going to decide everyone's future."

She chose, all alone, to dictate the future of all mankind and Etheirys. I'm sorry, but that's not how things roll no matter how fantastical things are. At that point she should have become a villain. We should have fought her. And the game would've lasted 10 times longer. Keep in mind, that would also mean everything we had done up to that point is meaningless.

Thankfully, but not so thankfully, Square forced a viewpoint on us. They made us accept our new godmother and move on with life.

No one should be allowed to dictate anyone's future. This is in part why Square should've left time travel alone. We would've been better off thinking Hydaelyn as an altruistic being and Zodairk as an all evil being. Square crossed boundaries they shouldn't have.

In the end, we have what we have. All we can do is be disgruntled or satisfied about it. Considering I'm the former, I can only hope Square never pulls this crap again.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

You are in a situation where people still believes Covid 19 is fake and you are expecting Venut can do a really good job convincing her people on something only she remembers?
/clap

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If only in this fantasy universe there was something that could show people visions of the past... Oh, if only the person holding vital information about events to come would be versed in sharing such visions with people, especially with those whom have already acted upon such far-fetched stories in the past, prior to losing those memories...

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Venat was a highly respected figure within the Ancient world. Had she been open and honest, there would be little reason to doubt her words. Yet even so, no society is obligated to bend over backwards to appease the likes of Venat and Hermes when their 'solution' is to wipe out their own race and civilization.

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Said civilization had zero qualms about throwing away half their population twice over and were perfectly willing to commit genocide of every new life born into the world just so they wouldn't have to feel sorrow or despair and recluse themselves into ignorant bliss of "paradise". The rest of the Ancient population making decisions aren't exactly of high standing moral character either.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

They all originate from said "civilisations". The chair exists for the very reason that the Convocation wanted to understand what is going on in the broader star to orient its decisions, so that is a bizarre claim. Hades himself had a background as someone who travelled a lot. It's not that the other seat occupants did not necessarily travel, but that that seat (Azem) was dedicated to it for the purpose of providing them information. The other seats all had their own spheres of expertise and responsibilities, like any real government. You're inventing a caricature.

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There's no guarantee they had to listen to Azem. They didn't in the island story. Azem went against their decision to save innocent people the Convocation was just going to let die.

"The island had one village upon it, and a wealth of fertile farmland─all of which would soon be lost. But that was simply the way of the world. As in many such cases, our role was merely to acknowledge the fact. The islanders would do the same, and those who deemed it prudent had likely already begun to move elsewhere. While it was true that the Convocation intended to discuss the matter, the conclusion would be no less inevitable."

The Ancients may have held funeral rites and respected deaths but their folly was complacency.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Said civilization had zero qualms about throwing away half their population twice over and were perfectly willing to commit genocide of every new life born into the world just so they wouldn't have to feel sorrow or despair and recluse themselves into ignorant bliss of "paradise". The rest of the Ancient population making decisions aren't of high standing moral character either.

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I think that particular portrayal is rather disingenuous and doesn't really align with the established events. For starters, the first and second round of sacrifices were willingly given and actively supported. Had they not happened, Etheirys would not have recovered from the Final Days.

As for the third round of sacrifices it isn't explicitly highlighted what the 'new life' entails though if it were the creations of the Ancients themselves, then it would be the equivalent of arcane constructs. Which is what they were in comparison to their creators.

I'd strongly suggest completing the side quests in Elpis if you have not done as much already. They don't exactly paint a picture of the Ancients being callous, cold and uncaring. They show emotion, they show concern for the Warrior of Light (despite believing him to be a familiar) and they also clearly show concern for each other and their creations. So I disagree with the idea that they aren't of 'high moral standing'.

I'd also note that the Sundered engage in far more active and open depravity. From slavery, to attempted genocide, to actual genocide, to theft, to murder, to wiping out entire species for trophies and trinkets to all manner of other things. All of which, I note, came about as a consequence of Venat's decision.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

As for the third round of sacrifices it isn't explicitly highlighted what the 'new life' entails though if it were the creations of the Ancients themselves, then it would be the equivalent of arcane constructs. Which is what they were in comparison to their creators.

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This is from Ere Our Curtain Falls, the same story I referenced in my previous comment

"The people were divided, unable to decide what to do with the future that now stretched out before them. Many wished to trade the new life which had sprung forth to reclaim those lost in sacrifice to Zodiark. No small number, however, insisted that the fate of our world should be entrusted to those selfsame freshly minted souls. "

So, this new life had souls and they wanted to sacrifice it to get back what they had.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Said civilization had zero qualms about throwing away half their population twice over and were perfectly willing to commit genocide of every new life born into the world just so they wouldn't have to feel sorrow or despair and recluse themselves into ignorant bliss of "paradise". The rest of the Ancient population making decisions aren't exactly of high standing moral character either.

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How is sacrificing themselves for the betterment of the planet throwing lives away? I guess most of the protagonists in the story are just as bad as them then considering they’ve done that time and time again. It wasn’t every new life form. It was a portion. Hythlodaeus says as much so less not try to force a narrative that isn’t there hm? Besides, how exactly is this any better than committing genocide to all life on the planet, and and causing mass murder?

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Originally Posted by Stachiko

At that point she should have become a villain. We should have fought her.

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That wouldn't make any sense. Her action benefits us and she is not against us, so we have no reason to fight her as a villain.

Or, if you're arguing that SE should have made her an actual villain that poses a danger to us just because of her past action that you disagree with, well, that's not how that works. They can, but they don't have to and they didn't.

And yes, time travel is always a tricky concept, so I'm in agreement in having none in the future. That said, I won't discount it appearing again either as it has been established, after all.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

There's no guarantee they had to listen to Azem..

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Except as we see when we go to Elpis, even though Hades may not believe us, due to his duty of the star he takes it upon himself to investigate. Not only this but he knows he was mind wiped. It’s as simple as Venat telling him how it happened. Irregardless he would have to investigate, and this isn’t even accounting for the fact she could just simply use the echo to show him. I feel like we’re going in circles with this because people are purposely being oblivious to fairly obvious ways it could’ve been addressed.

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Originally Posted by linayar

That wouldn't make any sense. Her action benefits us and she is not against us, so we have no reason to fight her as a villain.

Or, if you're arguing that SE should have made her an actual villain that poses a danger to us just because of her past action that you disagree with, well, that's not how that works. They can, but they don't have to and they didn't.

And yes, time travel is always a tricky concept, so I'm in agreement in having none in the future. That said, I won't discount it appearing again either as it has been established, after all.

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I agree with you on Venat. If she were squeaky clean I'd have a bit of a yuck face. I love how both Zodiark and Hydaelyn aren't either completely corrupt or completely pure.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

How is sacrificing themselves for the betterment of the planet throwing lives away? I guess most of the protagonists in the story are just as bad as them then considering they’ve done that time and time again. It wasn’t every new life form. It was a portion. Hythlodaeus says as much so less not try to force a narrative that isn’t there hm? Besides, how exactly is this any better than committing genocide to all life on the planet, and and causing mass murder?

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I'm not forcing any new narrative. Its established that they were willing to sacrifice the new life that was born unto Etheirys after the Final Days. I also never said it was better than what Hydealyn/Venat did, nor was I attempting to.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

I agree with you on Venat. If she were squeaky clean I'd have a bit of a yuck face. I love how both Zodiark and Hydaelyn aren't either completely corrupt or completely pure.

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The simplest way I can put it is, one country's hero could be another country's villain (or even traitor).

People who want to argue that Venat is a villain for her people could make their case (though as a former Azem, someone who is clearly independent, I'd say her deciding on her own is just in her nature). But that does not translate into us having to view her as a villain. So the story, which is told from our point of view, can still accept her as being a benevolent being because of how she benefits us.

I'm not particularly convinced they HAVE dealt with Zodiark.

This is a bit of a stretch but consider Hydaelyn sundered the world and Zodiark; splitting the source into reflections.

Then, it is pretty feasible that she remained unsundered herself while Zodiark may very much exist in multiple worlds simultaneously.
Within the realm of possibility that we only encountered the Zodiark fragment which remained in the Source

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Originally Posted by StealthPaladin

I'm not particularly convinced they HAVE dealt with Zodiark.

This is a bit of a stretch but consider Hydaelyn sundered the world and Zodiark; splitting the source into reflections.

Then, it is pretty feasible that she remained unsundered herself while Zodiark may very much exist in multiple worlds simultaneously.
Within the realm of possibility that we only encountered the Zodiark fragment which remained in the Source

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I believe it was said that, if the Source were to cease to exist, then all the reflections would to. I think the same could apply to Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by StealthPaladin

I'm not particularly convinced they HAVE dealt with Zodiark.

This is a bit of a stretch but consider Hydaelyn sundered the world and Zodiark; splitting the source into reflections.

Then, it is pretty feasible that she remained unsundered herself while Zodiark may very much exist in multiple worlds simultaneously.
Within the realm of possibility that we only encountered the Zodiark fragment which remained in the Source

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Even if this were the case, I'm not convinced the other Zodiark fragments would be a threat. The one on the source was, what, 7 or 8 times rejoined and we still trounced him. The fragments would be 1/14th original power rather then 1/2.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Said civilization had zero qualms about throwing away half their population twice over and were perfectly willing to commit genocide of every new life born into the world just so they wouldn't have to feel sorrow or despair and recluse themselves into ignorant bliss of "paradise". The rest of the Ancient population making decisions aren't exactly of high standing moral character either.

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There was nothing left to use for aether other than themselves. I'm sure mass suicide wouldn't be their #1 choice had circumstances not demanded it. "...Yet oh how the star had suffered. So many species lost. The land was blighted, the waters poisoned, and even the wind had ceased to blow."

As for the new life: "Once more did our people give of themselves to Zodiark. Another half of our race sacrificed to cleanse the world; to ensure that trees and grasses and myriad tiny lives would sprout and grow and flourish." Sounds to me like the focus was on restoring ecosystems to make the star inhabitable.

Regardless, I couldn't help but notice that "new life" was not mentioned in EW as one of Venat's reasons for sundering, so I'm left to assume either that plot was dropped, the Convocation was incorrect about her motives, or that's the lie she was telling people.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

So, this new life had souls and they wanted to sacrifice it to get back what they had.

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The Ancients couldn't create souls, so there's no reason to believe Zodiark capable of that feat either. However, souls being randomly generated, it stands to reason there were some in the mix. The Ancients weren't vegan and they didn't consider returning to the star to be a bad thing, so they wouldn't have had a moral quandary about sacrificing a portion of flora and fauna to release their loved ones' souls from Zodiark purgatory.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Except as we see when we go to Elpis, even though Hades may not believe us, due to his duty of the star he takes it upon himself to investigate. Not only this but he knows he was mind wiped. It’s as simple as Venat telling him how it happened. Irregardless he would have to investigate, and this isn’t even accounting for the fact she could just simply use the echo to show him. I feel like we’re going in circles with this because people are purposely being oblivious to fairly obvious ways it could’ve been addressed.

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I think people are questioning your obvious ways because there are giant holes in current knowledge about what actually happened, who tried what, and who talked to who. We don't know that she didn't talk to someone. Panda implies Azem has some sort of future sight. What if she talked to Azem and Azem said "Uh, no, do what you're doing". Maybe she confided in Elidibus or he got involved after the events of Panda. He certainly wouldn't remember. His memories were fragmented. We know she didn't tell Emet. We don't know exactly why.

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Originally Posted by Millybonk

• The mighty Zodiark, which has been build up as this mighty(evil) entity over several expansions, turns out to be nothing but filler trash for the first Endwalker trial

Really?
This is the best SQ could do in terms of story after ShB?

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Did people actually, like actually think that Zodiark would be the final bad? You praise ShB but one of the big lore points from that story was how Zodiark was something other than just an evil dark lord thing. He was created to stop the final days by valiant souls so it stands to reason that Zodiark is not the biggest threat in FF14 going off ShB alone.

I for one thought that Zodiark as the first trial was a bold and exciting choice, and Meteion was a strong new villain.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

The Ancients couldn't create souls, so there's no reason to believe Zodiark capable of that feat either. However, souls being randomly generated, it stands to reason there were some in the mix. The Ancients weren't vegan and they didn't consider returning to the star to be a bad thing, so they wouldn't have had a moral quandary about sacrificing a portion of flora and fauna to release their loved ones' souls from Zodiark purgatory.

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They did have a moral quandary as Ere Our Curtain Falls outlines

"The people were divided, unable to decide what to do with the future that now stretched out before them. Many wished to trade the new life which had sprung forth to reclaim those lost in sacrifice to Zodiark. No small number, however, insisted that the fate of our world should be entrusted to those selfsame freshly minted souls. All were at our wits' end."

It doesn't seem likely that they're going to debate entrusting the world to flora and fauna. Like you said, they would sacrifice without hesitation. But what would give pause? New people.

Also....why sacrifice at all? Their people are lost. It's very sad. Move on. Humanity learned how to do this after the Sundering. They couldn't.

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Originally Posted by ddwarbird

[[Spoilers Ahead]]

I am very bored of this "End of the World" anime crap... FFXIV used to have a mature story with inter-state politics playing a primary role, skilfully crafting allusions to real life. The Garlean Empire was made out in the end to be a straight out "bad guy", rather then the rich contextualisation they received in both ARR and Heavensward. It was a mature, gritty story where BOTH sides were doing evil things and played well with the dynamic of the beast tribes, displaced from their lands and desperately relying on their primals to bring them deliverance from poverty.

This story was boring and boiled down to "Hermes's love doll got sad and tried to blow up the Universe".

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I'm confused by this comment. In ARR and such the Garleans are literally just darth vader and the gang and are the evil bad. In EW they actually humanize the Garlean citizenry.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

As for the new life: "Once more did our people give of themselves to Zodiark. Another half of our race sacrificed to cleanse the world; to ensure that trees and grasses and myriad tiny lives would sprout and grow and flourish." Sounds to me like the focus was on restoring ecosystems to make the star inhabitable.

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1/2 was given so Zodiark could shroud the world in aether to stop the Final Days, the 2nd set of 1/2 their population was off'd to restore the planet to how it was before. The final offering was to be the new life growing in the world and was to be a trade, their unwilling lives for the lives they shoved into Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Regardless, I couldn't help but notice that "new life" was not mentioned in EW as one of Venat's reasons for sundering, so I'm left to assume either that plot was dropped, the Convocation was incorrect about her motives, or that's the lie she was telling people.

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The new life is part of it, just not the sole reason.

Venat: "To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn't wisdom. It is weakness. No paradise is without its shadows. If we cannot accept this truth and learn from our pain, then our plight shall be repeated."

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Originally Posted by Theodric

snip

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You forgot that there were people who witnessed Emet, Hyppo (forgot his name), Venat, and a so-called Azem's familiar entered the lv77 dungeon. People only knew that there was some problems with Kaitos that deleted memories of Emet, Hyppo and Hermes - the culprit himself. Even if Venat shows up and tells the truth, then people will just think that her memory got fumbled by the memory wiping device. Let's say Emet, Hyppo believed her and try to rally their people. It might make some noises, but the ultimate end is that people would just conclude these three having unreliable memories due to the incident. After all, it was 1 person who knew the truth, 2 people who had zero memory about what happened that just followed the flow vs the whole race who just wants to play god to perfect their star. And obviously, WoL could not stay there for too long to re-tell them the stories cuz the time-travel magic is running out right after the lv77 dungeon.



So Venat had two choices: try to change things, face a lot of opposition cuz no one trusts her, which could led to a future where she had zero mean to save the star, be it with the Ancient or with the new mankind. Or just make sure everything happening the same according to WoL's future, which she certainly believed would happen because WoL time-travelling to Elpis with her magic on him was the undeniable proof that that the sundering method was the right path that she needed to take. She needed Hermes in the 14th so that he would eventually contribute to the summoning of Hermes. She needed Emet to stay with deleted memory so that he would become the melancholic unsundered Ascian who built the Garlean Empire, which researched Black rose, which resulted in G'hara time travel to the First, which results in Elibidus getting absorbed by the tower who later provided information and a mean to travel to the past, then Fanadiel who opted for Zodiark's destruction, which led to WoL to the moon where he heard the word Elpis from the Watcher and received aid from the moon rabbits. And she needed to sunder the world so that everything above would happen, for a fighting chance against the threat nested in the edge of the universe.



Remember that she actually tried to reason with the Ancients, who was so absorbed with sacrificing to return to the blissful day instead of accepting suffering as part of their life and move on. And if you think they can "revive" the dead that easily, just look at what happened to the lamia girl who was the daughter that was killed and revived by Laskmi back in SB - an empty husk without soul. Zodiark is a band-aid for Final Days and a dead-end for the Ancient. A dead-end for the star vs a chance to fight back, Venat took the latter, and admitted there was no justice in her action.


And if you still think she just wanted to play Goddess, then what was the point of playing Goddess if your ultimate fate was the fuel for Ragnarok?

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Originally Posted by linayar

The new life is part of it, just not the sole reason.

Venat: "To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn't wisdom. It is weakness. No paradise is without its shadows. If we cannot accept this truth and learn from our pain, then our plight shall be repeated."

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I'd forgotten about that, thanks for reminding me. I hated that cutscene, so I've tried not to watch it any more than necessary.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

It doesn't seem likely that they're going to debate entrusting the world to flora and fauna. Like you said, they would sacrifice without hesitation. But what would give pause? New people.

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You've given me something to think about now. I generally don't like to debate the third sacrifice due to lack of information. I don't know what other races existed that weren't Ancient constructs. I don't know if the Ancients would have sacrificed themselves to bring back other races either, it seems like a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario. Either they were so altruistic they did so, or they were so selfish they did not. I'd only been thinking in terms of making the star inhabitable again, in which case it wouldn't make sense to bother with anything more than the basics needed to replenish and sustain life.

My opinion is it still never should've gotten to that point. Venat wasted valuable time they could've used to prepare for the Final Days. Instead, it hit without warning and by the time they figured out how to stop it they had no choice but to use themselves as primal fodder (something she didn't attempt to stop either). I can't imagine knowing what she did and not informing anyone in a position to do something about it, it's unconscionable to me.

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Also....why sacrifice at all? Their people are lost. It's very sad. Move on. Humanity learned how to do this after the Sundering. They couldn't.

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Either you've never lost anyone or handled it much differently than most people. Humanity didn't learn anything. The 8UC timeline suffered far less than the Final Days and still labored for two centuries to undo it with the belief that in doing so their existence would be erased. Post sundering and 12k years into the future, people were still willing to sacrifice themselves to return to the past over moving forward. Had current Etheirys suffered the Final Days more substantially I've no doubt they would've ended up the same as well.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Either you've never lost anyone or handled it much differently than most people. Humanity didn't learn anything. The 8UC timeline suffered far less than the Final Days and still labored for two centuries to undo it with the belief that in doing so their existence would be erased. Post sundering and 12k years into the future, people were still willing to sacrifice themselves to return to the past over moving forward. Had current Etheirys suffered the Final Days more substantially I've no doubt they would've ended up the same as well.

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I've lost plenty of people and some still hurt every day. I never forgot them, but I also can't let that run my life.

For the 8th Umbral Calamity timeline, I got the impression especially from An Unpromised Tomorrow story that they didn't really have a future. They worked for 200 years on that project and at the end of it the world was still in ruin and resources were scarce. It's because Middy wakes up at the end and says he'll protect and guide them in rebuilding and give them the knowledge to succeed that they start hoping for something more.

That's also just one group. There are plenty of groups we've met in the MSQ over the years who experienced tragic losses and forged ahead. And we never would have been able to defeat Endsinger if humanity hadn't learned to continue on past tragedy. We tell Meteion ourselves when says what she was looking for was always on Etheirys. It wasn't always there.

Regarding OP

Personally I liked the story a lot. Yes, the moon and the Zodiark encounter ended up being a bit underwhelming compared to what I imagined, but the expansion has plenty of other things to offer. The game still does a really good job of tying up loose ends and addressing some really relevant themes, and giving us a final boss that isn’t just a bad guy with bad intentions.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The patch art certainly doesn't help make it look any less sinister:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaP_wu5XEAEOShj.jpg:large

Though even putting aside Minfilia, the Sundering was in itself a non-consensual act so we know that Venat doesn't care much for the concept of free will. Let us not forget that by Venat's own admission during the cutscene at the end of Anamnesis Anyder her faction was very much a minority.

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A piece of promotional art does not change what the story made clear. Many thought we would be going against Hydaelyn when we became “Warriors of Darkness,” does that change what actually happened in SHB?

In what way? Letting people make decisions does not equal letting them do whatever they want to others. Did the Garleans have their free will violated by the Eorzean alliance fighting against their invasion?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

You're free to claim as much but I disagree. Venat was not only withholding key information from her people but she actively served as a subversive saboteur. Her actions only served to benefit the Sundered, rather than her own people...and even then, she inflicted untold levels of suffering upon the Sundered as a consequence of her decision. As she herself admits, there was no kindness or justice in the tragedy she wrought.

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And yet it was necessary. The unsundered were about to sacrifice new life to perpetuate their own version of the world, and doom all life in so doing. The story says this, clearly, and makes it clear when Emet concedes Venat was correct, much to his frustration, that she was right.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

As for the third round of sacrifices it isn't explicitly highlighted what the 'new life' entails though if it were the creations of the Ancients themselves, then it would be the equivalent of arcane constructs. Which is what they were in comparison to their creators.

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This convo? Again? Really?

https://i.imgur.com/kndKLrw.jpg

They weren’t sacrificing chickens.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

There's no guarantee they had to listen to Azem. They didn't in the island story. Azem went against their decision to save innocent people the Convocation was just going to let die.

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As per the section you quoted, the island already had time to evacuate. It is implied that Azem went there to save their way of life more than anything else. It also clearly does not apply to the situation in the Final Days, nor can we extrapolate it being applicable to the Convocation in general... because the Convocation instituted that seat precisely for the purposes of informing its decisions. And no, they're not bound to agree with everything one of their number dictates. However, were you to quote the rest of it, we also saw that Elidibus wanted to give some weight to their opinion because he enjoyed the novelty of their perspective, and conscripted Emet-Selch's help for that, and he obliged even after his usual grumbling. Something which is clear throughout Elpis as well is that the ancients were open to new ideas where they saw the merit in them. If you are trying to extrapolate a general stance of indifference from this, in the face of all the conflicting evidence, as opposed to this being a case by case decision, I do not think this comes anywhere near to making that case.

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The Ancients may have held funeral rites and respected deaths but their folly was complacency.

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I'd have thought Endwalker would have dispelled misconceptions like this. I could understand this pre-EW, where it was unknown how the Final Days unfolded. That is no longer the case. I'm not sure what "complacency" we're talking about here, because even with the causes of the Final Days hidden from them, they took action to investigate and prevent it even at the earliest signs of its spread.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

This is from Ere Our Curtain Falls, the same story I referenced in my previous comment

"The people were divided, unable to decide what to do with the future that now stretched out before them. Many wished to trade the new life which had sprung forth to reclaim those lost in sacrifice to Zodiark. No small number, however, insisted that the fate of our world should be entrusted to those selfsame freshly minted souls. "

So, this new life had souls and they wanted to sacrifice it to get back what they had.

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Yes, and from Elpis we know any creation qualifying as living does, so anything from animals to monsters and maybe certain familiars. Arcane entities on the other hand generally do not. Regarding familiars, which the MC presents themselves as but which they remark upon as being exceptional in nature in the sidequests, there is a clear inference that actual familiars were not as sapient, but at least harboured some degree of this in the sense that an AI might to us. So where does this new life fall on that spectrum, from animal to full blown ancient? We've no idea at this point. You say it's new people. The truth is, we don't know what the star was sticking souls into at that point after the planet was devastated and then restored, and there is a whole spectrum of possibilities ranging from animals to monsters to beings closer to Meteion (implied to have gained a soul although Hermes wouldn't let her be examined) to beings nearer to the sundered, to ancients, and without knowing the precise answer as to which of these it is, the degree to which it was "people" in their eyes is debatable. As Rulakir notes, it is very ambiguous. Again the discussion between Venat's faction and those that wished to sacrifice is very much fixated on repeating their doom as opposed to the morality of the sacrifices as such, which leads me to think these may have been sapient beings but not necessarily on the order of an ancient, and ones which they believed with some guidance could replace their people, for the ostensible ultimate aim of avoiding the fate of the Plenty. But all discussion on this is 100% speculative and unfortunately this represents the sum total of all we know about them pre-EW, and EW does not really add much other than some general info about creations, which further muddies the waters. Unless the devs choose to answer the question in the affirmative as to what they are, it will remain speculative. For the avoidance of any doubt, I am agnostic on the morality of the issue because of all the variables we're missing - I can see the argument for the sacrifices depending on what was being exchanged and I can also understand their desire for it, and why her arguments, failing to detail the rationale behind her concern (she had her reasons for it, even if I consider them a bit weak) would fail to convince them. Had the actual reasons been given, to explain how they could end up potentially dooming themselves in the process, they may have chosen not to proceed with it, or at least adjust their future plans in other ways, i.e. maybe leave them in until Meteion is defeated, and then end Zodiark and free the souls. I also don't consider it an adequate reason to sunder them, which is why I believe they had to introduce so many constraints via the time travel plot device, to limit what she could do and force the sundering to go ahead. As for what we're shown her saying to them? Just comes across as platitudes and is no doubt dismissed on that basis.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

They did have a moral quandary as Ere Our Curtain Falls outlines

"The people were divided, unable to decide what to do with the future that now stretched out before them. Many wished to trade the new life which had sprung forth to reclaim those lost in sacrifice to Zodiark. No small number, however, insisted that the fate of our world should be entrusted to those selfsame freshly minted souls. All were at our wits' end."

It doesn't seem likely that they're going to debate entrusting the world to flora and fauna. Like you said, they would sacrifice without hesitation. But what would give pause? New people.

Also....why sacrifice at all? Their people are lost. It's very sad. Move on. Humanity learned how to do this after the Sundering. They couldn't.

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Because they had a means to free the souls in limbo within Zodiark. If sundered humanity (with the same urges to minimise suffering and strive for a "better tomorrow" existing within it) had been left in this sort of position, I believe they'd have acted the same... if they'd faced anything like that level of devastation, and not just a fraction of it, and with a solution that came at a heavy cost to them. Given the metaphysics of the setting, they're not dead in the usual sense but stuck in a limbo inside Zodiark and unable to eventually re-connect with the star, which was something they cherished and would've been seen as a denial of this desire of the sacrificed ancients by their peers; at the same time, Zodiark had to remain up at full power. And as Rulakir noted, they had to perform sacrifices to summon him initially as the Final Days had desiccated the star, leaving them no other option, and even then, the whole thing about releasing those in Zodiark was debated extensively, with Elidibus even emerging to mediate it, as noted in the source compilation I posted above. So the "move on" just rings rather hollow as an exhortation. Again Venat's concern is their world would end like the Plenty, albeit based on a one line summary of that world's report. Thus the exhortation to accept suffering. But she never explains the why behind it all, so it just comes across as capricious platitudes. We can see they were strongly committed to the well-being of their star - but in the absence of actually explaining the why behind it all, she's doing the equivalent of throwing the equivalent of a google search of "inspiring quotes" on suffering at them.

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Originally Posted by StealthPaladin

I'm not particularly convinced they HAVE dealt with Zodiark.

This is a bit of a stretch but consider Hydaelyn sundered the world and Zodiark; splitting the source into reflections.

Then, it is pretty feasible that she remained unsundered herself while Zodiark may very much exist in multiple worlds simultaneously.
Within the realm of possibility that we only encountered the Zodiark fragment which remained in the Source

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Bizarrely enough, she is sundered too.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I've lost plenty of people and some still hurt every day. I never forgot them, but I also can't let that run my life.

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You've not witnessed the near extinction of your own people and planet. They did. You don't exist in a setting where (at least as far as we know) there is a thing such as the soul, which survives corporeal death, and which was stuck inside a limbo in Zodiark, unable to complete their return to the star. Let's not try pretend it's comparable. If you want to say you'd not try bring them back in such a scenario? Fine, but talk is cheap.

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That's also just one group. There are plenty of groups we've met in the MSQ over the years who experienced tragic losses and forged ahead. And we never would have been able to defeat Endsinger if humanity hadn't learned to continue on past tragedy. We tell Meteion ourselves when says what she was looking for was always on Etheirys. It wasn't always there.

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Convenient for them that they had a bunch of heroes to provide them the assurance that all would be well so that they could forge ahead, while their world suffered nothing like that level of devastation - again, the Final Days devastated the entire star to the point that the elements ceased to function properly. Meteion is ultimately defeated by just a handful of sundered. The idea that the ancients, cognisant of the threat, could not devise a method to rout her, especially with all the tools at their disposal, like those mentioned in this post, is fatuous to me.

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Originally Posted by Momo_Kozuki

You forgot that there were people who witnessed Emet, Hyppo (forgot his name), Venat, and a so-called Azem's familiar entered the lv77 dungeon. People only knew that there was some problems with Kaitos that deleted memories of Emet, Hyppo and Hermes - the culprit himself. Even if Venat shows up and tells the truth, then people will just think that her memory got fumbled by the memory wiping device. Let's say Emet, Hyppo believed her and try to rally their people. It might make some noises, but the ultimate end is that people would just conclude these three having unreliable memories due to the incident. After all, it was 1 person who knew the truth, 2 people who had zero memory about what happened that just followed the flow vs the whole race who just wants to play god to perfect their star. And obviously, WoL could not stay there for too long to re-tell them the stories cuz the time-travel magic is running out right after the lv77 dungeon.

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All of this is negated by the existence of the Echo.

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Remember that she actually tried to reason with the Ancients, who was so absorbed with sacrificing to return to the blissful day instead of accepting suffering as part of their life and move on.

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She doesn't reason with them by explaining what happened. She offers what would seem like platitudes about suffering in the face of the devastation of their star and people.

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And if you think they can "revive" the dead that easily, just look at what happened to the lamia girl who was the daughter that was killed and revived by Laskmi back in SB - an empty husk without soul.

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If only that were even remotely analogous. Lakshmi is a primal of bliss. She had no desire to do what was asked of her, even assuming she had the ability. Zodiark on the other hand is quite literally a body-suit for Elidibus, composed of their souls, which exist within Zodiark in a limbo. Meanwhile they possess amongst their number an expert in identifying souls, one even capable of retrieving one with the snap of finger just after she'd "died". The Lakshmi comparison just doesn't wash.

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Zodiark is a band-aid for Final Days and a dead-end for the Ancient. A dead-end for the star vs a chance to fight back, Venat took the latter, and admitted there was no justice in her action.

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A band-aid that lasted at least 12k years and protected it for as long. Venat admitted he was necessary. I might even agree that the third stage of sacrifices was not the best of ideas, but unless she explained her motives for it (i.e. what Meteion saw on the Plenty), and that it'd be best to forge on with what they had and eventually free those souls from Zodiark once Meteion was gone, but I'm afraid her people had little reason to agree with the platitudes she was offering at the time, offered at the worst time possible.

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And if you still think she just wanted to play Goddess, then what was the point of playing Goddess if your ultimate fate was the fuel for Ragnarok?

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The mothercrystal's fate. Not hers. She still got to do it for 12k years, and then proceeds to make her way to the world of the dead.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

And yet it was necessary. The unsundered were about to sacrifice new life to perpetuate their own version of the world, and doom all life in so doing. The story says this, clearly, and makes it clear when Emet concedes Venat was correct, much to his frustration, that she was right.

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Hmmmm no he doesn't. As I noted before, the French version makes it clearer that what he's referring to is stepping foot on Ultima Thule. See here. He also goes on in that same scene to say that his principles are invincible, and given the more qualified nature of the concession in the French version, it ties together better.

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This convo? Again? Really?

https://i.imgur.com/kndKLrw.jpg

They weren’t sacrificing chickens.

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Same goes for you. You've tried to link this before. This is from 12k years afterwards, after the Sundering had fractured all souls on the star. By which point the plan had changed to glue the planet and all life upon it back together, as it had been fragmented. Given that the surviving ancients would've also been fragmented into what are now the sundered (and particularly Azem), of course the Ascian plan entails that as a component. Thus using this as any sort of evidence as to what the nature of the sacrifices was before the Sundering is a trifle disingenuous.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

They weren’t sacrificing chickens.

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Agree. The scene where Venat was walking on the ruined streets, slowly realizing how desperate their situation is, really shows how much they tried to prevent the final days. And then her arriving into that building where a group of survivors just decided to blindly sacrifice themselves to strengthen zodiark made her finally realize that their efforts are really futile and that they would only be sacrficing themselves to extinction for zodiark. I think there she realized that the only chance was the path she learned from us and even then she is pragmatic enough to consider failure so she has back up plans like the Loporrits and the moon ark prepared.

I really like Venat. Too bad she is a very short lived character since she is only created for the final arc and to close the saga of the Ascian storyline. Excited for what new arc we will be introduced to in 6.1 though. :)

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Same goes for you. You've tried to link this before. This is from 12k years afterwards, after the Sundering had fractured all souls on the star. By which point the plan had changed to glue the planet and all life upon it back together, as it had been fragmented. Given that the surviving ancients would've also been fragmented into what are now the sundered (and particularly Azem), of course the Ascian plan entails that as a component. Thus using this as any sort of evidence as to what the nature of the sacrifices was before the Sundering is a trifle disingenuous.

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That particular part of the plan comes after Emet says the Rejoining has been completed. He’s not talking about sacrificing sundered, but rejoined souls. So either he, in his own moral system, is ok with sacrificing beings worth of moral consideration because he’s bitter and angry at them and would rather see them suffer when an alternative remains, or this was part of the plan all along.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Same goes for you. You've tried to link this before. This is from 12k years afterwards, after the Sundering had fractured all souls on the star. By which point the plan had changed to glue the planet and all life upon it back together, as it had been fragmented. Given that the surviving ancients would've also been fragmented into what are now the sundered (and particularly Azem), of course the Ascian plan entails that as a component. Thus using this as any sort of evidence as to what the nature of the sacrifices was before the Sundering is a trifle disingenuous.

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There's the fact that Venat and her group objected to it pre-sundering. In fact, the new life would have to be of such quality to be offered up as sacrifice to Zodiark in order to revive the lost Ancients.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

That particular part of the plan comes after Emet says the Rejoining has been completed. He’s not talking about sacrificing sundered, but rejoined souls. So either he, in his own moral system, is ok with sacrificing beings worth of moral consideration because he’s bitter and angry at them and would rather see them suffer when an alternative remains, or this was part of the plan all along.

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...or because the Rejoinings don't necessarily automatically yield ancients. We've seen this from the Source vs the First, where the life forms are more or less indistinguishable barring soul density, and very distant from an ancient. Bearing in mind that amongst the sundered are fragments of ancient souls which they very much would've wanted to restore, like Emet's old pal, Azem. Which makes arguing back from their end result and what would be required at the end of them to restore the ancients, to what would've happened before then when we're talking about vaguely specified "new lives", an exercise in futility. You're free to consider it as evidence of some prior plan but it's not very compelling because of all these confounding factors, IMO.

Meanwhile in Venat's moral system, it's fine to sunder the entire world because she deems it for the greater good.

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Originally Posted by linayar

There's the fact that Venat and her group objected to it pre-sundering. In fact, the new life would have to be of such quality to be offered up as sacrifice to Zodiark in order to revive the lost Ancients.

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Yes, and why did they object to it pre-sundering? Because they thought the ancients were on a path to repeat their doom. The entire reasoning for surrendering the star over to the new lives ties into that.

And the latter part is a non sequitur. It would only need to provide sufficient aether for it, as it is aether Zodiark required. Again this is accounted for in the part of their plan where Zodiark stimulated the planet's natural vitality until it was bursting with new life - no doubt on account of his aspect of darkness. So it may be a case where the quantity here would do the trick.

I would like to thank the frequent posters in this thread for articulating and discussing the numerous problems I had with Endwalker’s lore far better than I could possibly have done. In the midst of everyone’s praises for EW, it felt really suffocating to have a different opinion. So, thank you for giving my feelings some validation.

My sub has run its course so I can no longer give y’all the votes that I feel y’all so rightfully deserve. There’s been some fantastic discussions so far and hopefully y’all will continue to do so without anyone resorting to personal attacks no matter what your opinions might be.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Yes, and why did they object to it pre-sundering? Because they thought the ancients were on a path to repeat their doom. The entire reasoning for surrendering the star over to the new lives ties into that.

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Yes, but Venat's words suggest that the method was also wrong. If the method was irrelevant due to the nature of the new life, then it wouldn't have to be mentioned.

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And the latter part is a non sequitur. It would only need to provide sufficient aether for it, as it is aether Zodiark required. Again this is accounted for in the part of their plan where Zodiark stimulated the planet's natural vitality until it was bursting with new life - no doubt on account of his aspect of darkness. So it may be a case where the quantity here would do the trick.

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In that case, they wouldn't need a living sacrifice, merely a sufficient concentration of aether.