How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

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10-03-2018, 12:41 AM
HyoMinPark

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You're wasting time doing runs with randoms, waiting for them to fill your pugs on farm parties and more, and them kicking them when they underperform or wipe you. If the content is hard enough, you're much better off not doing that and not hoping the randoms will be fixed by whatever half-ass measure the devs put out, and instead do it with a static and save PF for less demanding things.

If they're going to underperform or repeatedly wipe the party, they shouldn't join farms in the first place. Because they clearly need to practice something, be it rotation or mechanics, and farm parties are not the place for practice.
10-03-2018, 12:46 AM
Zephera

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You're wasting time doing runs with randoms, waiting for them to fill your pugs on farm parties and more, and them kicking them when they underperform or wipe you. If the content is hard enough, you're much better off not doing that and not hoping the randoms will be fixed by whatever half-ass measure the devs put out, and instead do it with a static and save PF for less demanding things.

I don't have the time or schedule for a static so PF will have to do. Also, just curious but what do you use PF for? Casual dungeon runs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

What excluding people based on a few results in a third party website that doesn't even need you to sign up to it, your all just proving to me the worst of what I think of this games raiding player base.

How dare people have expectations of others and remove them from groups when they don't meet them. I think you're the toxic one if you're wandering into parties and only giving a mediocre performance instead of your best.
10-03-2018, 12:54 AM
Aerlana

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

what on earth would you guys ever do if the endgame were based around 24 man raids? If you can't get 7 other people as friends in an mmo to do raid content, there's something wrong. It's not like you need to spend 4 hour farming a pop and two hours fighting the pop boss or anything.

To answer specificaly to the sentence i did quote : Illness, hollidays, different IRL. When you get 3 night a week to do sadic content, and you decide that primals will be out of those days. Not sure you can have all. Real life before anything else !
So yes, sometime, from a team of 8 people, you finally drop to 7, 6 or even less...
My static we were 9 to limit this matter. allowing to run 51 weeks a year (just "loot run" for christmas :p) without needing any pick up, while allowing our members to go in hollidays, to the wedding of the sister, or the birthday of the nephew (or his own birthday). And in 2 years, i saw 8 weeks we had a matter to be sure to get 8 to the three weekly runs. We had to move some of the days ,but was not so easy. because everyone of us get his own personnal real life also.
I left my static because wanted to have all my 7 weekly evening free. they had to find anyone to take my spot. they didnt took the first showing up, they did time to choose anyone "good enough" to fit what they wanted to do.

now, for PvE content i only play wow. In this game full of toxicity, people manage to do full PUG group to 15, 20 or sometime more people to do content harder than Xtrem primals, i think it is also possible thing in FFXIV.

On one game, it is allow to say that some people are bad, that you dont want to carry them. it is ok to play with people you did personnally choose, with your own way to choose who can come. You can decide if you want only top players or ok with getting some "weak" one.
On the other game, doing this is being toxic. Thinking that some deadweight waste the time of the 7 others is toxic.

i read on this forum "you dont pay my sub" on topics about "how to play well" (like "heal have to DPS" and others). Yes it is right. YOU dont pay my sub also. You dont want me to do how to play? dont say me how to form my parties.
10-03-2018, 12:56 AM
thegreatonemal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

People who don't have logs or elect to hide them are typically kicked from weekly Savage parties. They can be kicked from EX Primals too, but that isn't as common. Basically, the exclude you're accusing an official parse of already happens. Not using FFlogs only makes people assume you have something to hide. Therefore, an official parse or allowing us to openly discuss parses in-game wouldn't change anything at all. Not when it comes to exclusion.

As stated above, PS4 players have no access to parses. Considering a sizable portion of the playerbase plays on PS4, they're entirely reliant on someone else to see their damage. Furthermore, we aren't allowed to discuss parses openly without fear of getting our accounts banned. Whether to remove players who have no business joining clear/farm parties or explain how someone might improve, we can't do anything except silently kick. The sheer amount of people who are shocked when I tell them how much more damage they could be doing is baffling. A good amount of people don't even realize they're doing anything wrong.

So instead of making countless threads about how the devs should be putting the rotations in the game we make them about wanting parsers so we can do the devs job for them.

No one is saying that exclusion doesn't happen what they are saying is that it will happen more quite a bit more. If parsers become official it basically acceptable to harass people and openly exclude them from things justified or no. the only reason people don't do it as often now is how strict SE is with harassment.
10-03-2018, 01:01 AM
odintius

I'm not against parsers, but at some point you no longer need a parser if you have your rotation memorized that works or is good enough. Majority is getting the experience of the mechanics of the fight too keep dps up time to perform that rotation. A parser isn't going to perform that aspect of the fight once you have it down you're naturally going to see your dps increase if you have a proper rotation in the first place. Unless we're talking about act trigger/dbm which help call out boss mechanics that are coming because allot of these fight are scripted. /Shrugs
10-03-2018, 01:04 AM
RiyahArp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zephera

I don't have the time or schedule for a static so PF will have to do. Also, just curious but what do you use PF for? Casual dungeon runs?

if i do hard content, its raid finder for learning and clear if possible, pf for learning and clear otherwise. I can't stand farming, by the time i clear i'm sick of the fight so mounts don't matter to me. Raid finder is better for learning because its limited to one lockout and there's no pressure to turn it into a clear/farm party after, i feel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Between people having different school, work and irl schedules in general there are a lot of times that someone might be looking for a farm party but not have a full group available to them..

have you ever played any other MMO?

Because if you can't get 8 people on at the same time, there is no "let's pug this" option for any content of any difficulty. You cancel the raid. If your schedules are so different you can't make a raid night, you find a guild or fc who schedules it when you can. This isn't a game where you need to spend 6 hours just to have a chance at a fight; if you all can't be bothered to schedule one night a week at minimum and stick to it, wtf will any of you do if SE decides to make endgame more involved than a boss in a box? There's only so much hard raids can compensate for limited time and reliance on randoms, if you can't use the social tools players used to counter this, there's no way SE will fix this just by adding a parser or gating out the bads. It will wind up being like them getting rid of Feast chat, a ham-handed solution that no one likes.
10-03-2018, 01:11 AM
KaivaC

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Why are you doing farm parties in pf with randoms though? If you can't get 8 people together to do it, you need to spend less time griping about carries and more time making friends. The raiders in this game are odd that way; no one expects to speedkill stuff over and over in the hardest content in the game with randoms. Yet in this game they complain when it happens. In most other games, if you want to do this you do it with a guild specifically designed for endgame raiding.

Riyah, if you couldn't even clear v3s to even see said farm parties, why are you here trying to preach what etiquette should be?
10-03-2018, 01:19 AM
SenorPatty

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

So instead of making countless threads about how the devs should be putting the rotations in the game we make them about wanting parsers so we can do the devs job for them.

No one is saying that exclusion doesn't happen what they are saying is that it will happen more quite a bit more. If parsers become official it basically acceptable to harass people and openly exclude them from things justified or no. the only reason people don't do it as often now is how strict SE is with harassment.

The issue is people muddle harassment for everything. You have people in this thread, other parser topic threads and even tales of df that have claimed being kicked silently is harassment. It really wouldn't surprise me if those same people even went as far as reporting the party leader or other people in the party because they felt like it was harassment.

SE's strict on harassment in everything. Even if an official parser were to drop tommorow, that would not change. But you know what else wouldn't change? Their stance on playstyle differences. If people fearing parsers because now people can openly speak in a civil or neutral manner with facts about why they're getting booted, then that's on them because they're the ones mixing up legit harassment and playstyle differences.

This is the common thread I see with anti-parsers: they want to play however they like, they don't want to be excluded from content they clearly cannot do, they don't want to be told where they're messing up and they don't want to give people the choice to disband.

All this because facts would actually validate other people's reasons for kicking whereas the absence of those facts gives them leeway to act like they're not the problem.
10-03-2018, 01:22 AM
Zephera

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

have you ever played any other MMO?

Not who you're responding to with this, but difficult content in MMO's can't survive on statics alone these days. Blizzard was going to quit making raids in WoW entirely were it not for the introduction of the LFR system because not enough people were doing them. Statics aren't easy to create or hold together and if you make content that requires a static, you're going to find the amount of people doing the difficult content will be so low it's not worth making content like that anymore.
10-03-2018, 01:24 AM
Sigma-Astra

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

sheesh, this game has the least time-demanding endgame of any mmo out there. Schedule your farms for one night a week for two or three hours; if people can't make it to that, they probably should consider if raiding is what they want to do. Because in other games there would be none of this, you get kicked if you don't show up on time enough. And you make sure you schedule things so people can plan for it. If you consistently need to pug stuff, that's a people failure; you need to talk to the people who aren't showing up and see what's up.

I have a static strictly for raiding and anything else I do, whether farming or other random nonsense on my own time is strictly my personal responsibility.

Before you attempt to lecture me and circlejerk yourself with weaker arguments, perhaps you should stop complaining first that the game is already too hard if you're going to try to say things like "this game already has the least time-demanding endgame possible". I raid on Tuesday and Wednesday nights because, and here's a shocker for you, I work 7 days a week, and here's another shocker, people have other lives outside of XIV. Yet, I still find time within my busy schedule to raid and have fun. You really need to stop passing your subjective opinions off as facts all of the time here.

Omg, what are you? A no lifer? Funny how raiders get called that first when casuals do it too....
10-03-2018, 01:24 AM
Bourne_Endeavor

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

So instead of making countless threads about how the devs should be putting the rotations in the game we make them about wanting parsers so we can do the devs job for them.

No one is saying that exclusion doesn't happen what they are saying is that it will happen more quite a bit more. If parsers become official it basically acceptable to harass people and openly exclude them from things justified or no. the only reason people don't do it as often now is how strict SE is with harassment.

Find me a single post in this entire thread endorsing harassment. I'll wait.

Excluding players who do not mean the group's expectations isn't harassment nor am I obligated to help you clear. Your assumption it will happen with more regularity is simply that: an assumption. I disagree. Now we're an impasse, except I can fall back on parsers already existing and they aren't causing the problems you claim.

Frankly, they should do both. But at least a parse allows people to see the end result, especially those on PS4 who have to rely on someone else to see if they're improving.
10-03-2018, 01:37 AM
Aerlana

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

*snip*

Rules about harassment are NOT depending of the tools the game offers. Official parser is just the "official" tool. nothing more, not a "ok, now you can spit on other people". I can give you an axe tomorrow, i wont allow you to use it on anything else than the trees with a red cross.
Now where do you see harassment about parser? Because from the begining we ask "what is this toxicity you speak about" when anyone says this. but, if it is only the "kick because too bad" ... not harassment. just "selecting people due to their capacity".
If you cut me a tree a day when the other can do 4 trees a day... not sure i will keep you in my team.
10-03-2018, 01:42 AM
MageBlack

Love this thread, It answers its own question and not in the way it set out to. But carry on arguing guys! I got a fresh bowl of popcorn!

https://media.tenor.com/images/0243a...8841/tenor.gif
10-03-2018, 01:45 AM
Sigma-Astra

Quote:

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

What excluding people based on a few results in a third party website that doesn't even need you to sign up to it, your all just proving to me the worst of what I think of this games raiding player base.

If you think XIV's raiding base is terrible and the worst kinds of toxic people, don't work in retail then or customer service, you'd never last a day.
10-03-2018, 01:45 AM
Daibunnie

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Why are you doing farm parties in pf with randoms though? If you can't get 8 people together to do it, you need to spend less time griping about carries and more time making friends. The raiders in this game are odd that way; no one expects to speedkill stuff over and over in the hardest content in the game with randoms. Yet in this game they complain when it happens. In most other games, if you want to do this you do it with a guild specifically designed for endgame raiding.

Why are casuals joining parties they have no business being in? If you can't even play properly, you need to stay out of the clear and farm parties and spend more time actually learning how to play your class and learn the mechanics of the fight instead of dragging everyone down with you just because of your own greed to get a clear. Raiders expect everyone to at least know how to play the game before even attempting savage content. In this game, you have casuals who can't even recognize what a stack marker is nor even understand the basics of their own class at endgame. In most games, these kinds of players are left behind and no one would want them in any sort of party.
10-03-2018, 01:52 AM
thegreatonemal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Find me a single post in this entire thread endorsing harassment. I'll wait.

Excluding players who do not mean the group's expectations isn't harassment nor am I obligated to help you clear. Your assumption it will happen with more regularity is simply that: an assumption. I disagree. Now we're an impasse, except I can fall back on parsers already existing and they aren't causing the problems you claim.

Frankly, they should do both. But at least a parse allows people to see the end result, especially those on PS4 who have to rely on someone else to see if they're improving.

Umm no one said or implied that so what?
The group most people don't vote to kick people in a pf environment party leader says replacing they back out and the party leader kicks someone or multiple people. Compare your parase to how people treat K/D in FPS games it be the same kinds of toxic stuff gms might not be able to keep up with all the claims. So no, not an assumption just a trend that happens in lots of games with rankings in any kind of way allowing an official parse allows that ranking and opens the door to all of that. We could argue about this all day but I'd rather not.

Being on ps4 I know the issues it causes for my own personal improvement of not being able to parse myself and being at the mercy of a pc player who treats his logs as a highlight reel instead of a more accurate representation on your gradual improvement. for all of the logs i have I've probably done better and worse but because i'm on ps4 I can't know for sure. annoying to be sure. But the way this game is setup my own desire to test the micro improvements to my rotation are pointless the boss still died at the same time and we got the loot. The negatives outweigh the positives
10-03-2018, 02:02 AM
Aerlana

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

*snip*

If you have not been kicked, at least you know you did a good job. good enough for what we waited from you. Simply. Kicking is not a random thing.

But... when i read the first part of your message. You clearly says than seeing and doing things depending of people performance is bad in a system where you can choose with who you play?
So lets randomize all team in all game for everything. When you see the top team of league of legend, or counterstrike in the annual championship. they do select people, they throw away deadweight...

on OW when a game finished, you can choose between staying with the same people, or let the game choose your new teammate. With what you says, it is toxic to click "no" if you consider them bad... right?
10-03-2018, 02:07 AM
RiyahArp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daibunnie

Then how about you stop demanding everyone else to carry the scrubs that don't know how to play and take the initiative to get better. The fix is to point out what those scrubs are doing wrong in the first place which will be easier to do with a parser.

I never argued anyone should be carried. I am arguing that if you expect people to get better as solution, it's never going to happen. You can only change yourself, and choose who you hang around with. If you rely on random people, you get random results. If you think the devs can fix that, you're going to get disappointed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zephera

I'm going to be honest, I do not care if a person fails to improve even if a parser was added. I care about having a tool that allows me to weed out the dead weight easier. The faster I can weed the garden, the sooner I can put the bad player on my blacklist and never have to deal with them again.

Then over time you will end up in a static by default, because you'll get tired of that and just play with people you trust, which solves that problem a lot better than constantly blacklisting people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Actually...yeah, we can.

Yeah, you can kick. but you can't expect all random people to be good. You have to accept that a lot will be bad or mediocre. A lot of people here are really wanting to solve people being bad at the hardest content in the game, and that's not going to happen.
10-03-2018, 02:13 AM
Rangar

An official parser would be nice, but could only realistically work by being limited to the player, and NEVER include the party (even though there's already hoards of people running them regardless). It's always comes down to the issue of singling out people for "bad numbers" that keeps this from being a thing.
10-03-2018, 02:19 AM
MageBlack

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rangar

An official parser would be nice, but could only realistically work by being limited to the player, and NEVER include the party (even though there's already hoards of people running them regardless). It's always comes down to the issue of singling out people for "bad numbers" that keeps this from being a thing.

I think that is the only realistic solution to this is a personal parser. It would be good to have an official parser, so PS4 players can use one, but it needs to be something for personal improvement.
10-03-2018, 02:23 AM
Sigma-Astra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zephera

This is exactly what we want to do though. I don't know why you can't understand this.

It's Riyah, that's why. If we ask for the rest of the players to have the common decency and courtesy to read shit before they click on it, apparently we're the bad guys and that's asking for far too much.

Basic reading comprehension is a must-have, not an optional privilege in party finder.
10-03-2018, 02:27 AM
thegreatonemal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerlana

If you have not been kicked, at least you know you did a good job. good enough for what we waited from you. Simply. Kicking is not a random thing.

But... when i read the first part of your message. You clearly says than seeing and doing things depending of people performance is bad in a system where you can choose with who you play?
So lets randomize all team in all game for everything. When you see the top team of league of legend, or counterstrike in the annual championship. they do select people, they throw away deadweight...

on OW when a game finished, you can choose between staying with the same people, or let the game choose your new teammate. With what you says, it is toxic to click "no" if you consider them bad... right?

You keep saying things like this but heres a question what and who determines whats good and bad? That dps doing 4.9k might be bad to you but as far as the content and the game is concerned is fine. This isn't a pro league competitive game so your counter example doesn't work as long as the bosses hp is at 0% before the hard enrage finishes casting no one was dead weight. You might think that based on logs from other people or looking at what the class is theoretically capable of doing at any given item level.
10-03-2018, 02:37 AM
Daibunnie

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

You keep saying things like this but heres a question what and who determines whats good and bad? That dps doing 4.9k might be bad to you but as far as the content and the game is concerned is fine. This isn't a pro league competitive game so your counter example doesn't work as long as the bosses hp is at 0% before the hard enrage finishes casting no one was dead weight. You might think that based on logs from other people or looking at what the class is theoretically capable of doing at any given item level.

The current parser can list how well each player performed as a percentile. A dps doing only 6% of the boss' hp as opposed to the 2 healers who did 10% each, is easily unacceptable and warrants a kick if anyone notices. Most people won't care as long as they clear yes, but that dps was the one who the party had to carry the entire fight.
10-03-2018, 02:48 AM
Aerlana

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

*snip*

Yes, watching logs for example. logs not only show "the top players" you can see the DPS at the 75 percentil. it is the DPS where 25% people are doing more, and 75% are doing less.
Right now, if i watch on FFlogs for O9S, the DPS of the 75th percentil is from 5900 (ninja) to 6900 (samurai).
Now, lets go to O9S savage, mechanics are done well, but third try, third wipe on enrage. you see your parser, and find a samurai with 4k5 DPS... Yes he is bad. Now here is the deal
1) i says him to move his ass and get better DPS => toxic because i want him to play better
2) i kick him to take a new melee that will do enough damages => toxic because i kick
3) i stay with him, without saying anything, hoping a miracle.
4) disband

You want the 3, you choice. Me i prefer first saying him he has to be better, and if it doesnt show any improvement, sadly ill kick him...

Now for farms situation same logic. i go watch the 75th percentil because i want to farm fast. (so get some quite fast clear) DPS are from 5k to 5k8. if i find the kills quite slow, and see a guy at 4k...

FUN FACT : no need to FFlogs most of time to see there is a matter... i never used worldoflogs (or warcraftlogs now) to know it when i was raid lead.
Just, i see some people really far behind... like a healer doing half the work the others are doing. or a DPS doing far less than any other. Rarely i had situation where i had doubt and had to mind about strength/weakness of the class on this fight.
And parsers not only show DPS/HPS. damages receive, number of dispells (more fight ask it in WoW) number of interrupt cast, overhealing. The wow parser i have also show me how muchthis heal did get mana back during fight (helping to understand why he is so low than the others... easier to give him advices). With just one fight, you can get numerous information about playstyle when you take the time to read it fully... To kick people that dont have their spot in THIS party. and also seeing any matter to give advice !

When anyone create a party, HE decides the rules. if he decides to get only elite people, over the 90th percentil, or really open minded and take anyone over the 25th percentil, it is his matter.
Where is the toxicity there? because i am not enough openminded to carry anyone thru the farm or in the savage content? It is this the "toxicity" you fear about official parser?
10-03-2018, 02:48 AM
Ameela

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

You keep saying things like this but heres a question what and who determines whats good and bad? That dps doing 4.9k might be bad to you but as far as the content and the game is concerned is fine. This isn't a pro league competitive game so your counter example doesn't work as long as the bosses hp is at 0% before the hard enrage finishes casting no one was dead weight. You might think that based on logs from other people or looking at what the class is theoretically capable of doing at any given item level.

Sell runs are literally just 7 people carrying an 8th party member that's dead weight, most even kill themselves before the fight starts.
Yes the boss reached 0 HP but the other members had to make up for the slacking party member, if all party members were equally slacking they wouldn't clear.
10-03-2018, 03:05 AM
thegreatonemal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerlana

Yes, watching logs for example. logs not only show "the top players" you can see the DPS at the 75 percentil. it is the DPS where 25% people are doing more, and 75% are doing less.
Right now, if i watch on FFlogs for O9S, the DPS of the 75th percentil is from 5900 (ninja) to 6900 (samurai).
Now, lets go to O9S savage, mechanics are done well, but third try, third wipe on enrage. you see your parser, and find a samurai with 4k5 DPS... Yes he is bad. Now here is the deal
1) i says him to move his ass and get better DPS => toxic because i want him to play better
2) i kick him to take a new melee that will do enough damages => toxic because i kick
3) i stay with him, without saying anything, hoping a miracle.
4) disband

You want the 3, you choice. Me i prefer first saying him he has to be better, and if it doesnt show any improvement, sadly ill kick him...

Now for farms situation same logic. i go watch the 75th percentil because i want to farm fast. (so get some quite fast clear) DPS are from 5k to 5k8. if i find the kills quite slow, and see a guy at 4k...

FUN FACT : no need to FFlogs most of time to see there is a matter... i never used worldoflogs (or warcraftlogs now) to know it when i was raid lead.
Just, i see some people really far behind... like a healer doing half the work the others are doing. or a DPS doing far less than any other. Rarely i had situation where i had doubt and had to mind about strength/weakness of the class on this fight.

When anyone create a party, HE decides the rules. if he decides to get only elite people, over the 90th percentil, or really open minded and take anyone over the 25th percentil, it is his matter.
Where is the toxicity there? because i am not enough openminded to carry anyone thru the farm or in the savage content? It is this the "toxicity" you fear about official parser?

None of that matters, those logs are based on whoever has logs not every player of the class or what is the limit that class can do in any given fight. Its already biased that 4.9k isn't dead weight you needed it to clear the fight unless you think your pumping out enough damage to clear current content with a dps dead on the floor the entire time.

That said kicking people because they don't meet your standards in not the problem nor what anyone was talking about its how you do it. Most of people are not gonna be like "hey your damage is too low we want faster kills bye" Most are gonna be "lol trash sam with 4.5k dps learn your rotation insult x y and z." will all of them be like those two examples no of course not but those will increase. People already do these but they hardly say it to the persons face they just say it to their fcs and linkshells. this games community kinda runs on hear no evil see no evil and you and others don't do it openly because of the very real chance you get banned for a few days. That's the toxicity people in this thread are referring too.
10-03-2018, 03:06 AM
greytonberry

Day-????

I've lost count, the days blend in with one another, time ceases to be a thing, the world is crumbling around me. I don't know who I am, where I am, or what I am. The only thing I know for sure is that parsers are the evil.
10-03-2018, 03:13 AM
Ilan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirwen

Consoles are pretty expensive themselves but I'm not a gamer so yea... Unless only playing FF14 is considered being a gamer.

Consoles don't need to be upgraded as fast as PC's do and its cheaper to buy a console than a PC. Sure console games are most of the time more expensive but the console itself is cheaper than a decent PC.
10-03-2018, 03:23 AM
Daibunnie

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

None of that matters, those logs are based on whoever has logs not every player of the class or what is the limit that class can do in any given fight. Its already biased that 4.9k isn't dead weight you needed it to clear the fight unless you think your pumping out enough damage to clear current content with a dps dead on the floor the entire time. That said kicking people because they don't meet your standards in not the problem nor what anyone was talking about its how you do it. Most of people are not gonna be like "hey your damage is too low we want faster kills bye" Most are gonna be "lol trash sam with 4.5k dps learn your rotation insult x y and z." will all of them be like those two examples no of course not but those will increase. People already do these but they hardly say it to the persons face they just say it to their fcs and linkshells. this games community kinda runs on hear no evil see no evil and you and others don't do it because of the very real chance you get banned for a few days. That's the toxicity people in this thread are referring too

When someone is doing below average dps, gear is the first thing people will check, then their rotation. The problem is usually rotation especially at savage content where ilvl is locked accordingly. Also, people will say what is on their mind. You play like you have no idea what you're doing at endgame, people will criticize, berate, or even mock you whether its in game or online. Because in the end, you're wasting their time when they could've gotten another competent player instead and finished w/e they were doing.
10-03-2018, 03:32 AM
thegreatonemal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daibunnie

When someone is doing below average dps, gear is the first thing people will check, then their rotation. The problem is usually rotation especially at savage content where ilvl is locked accordingly. Also, people will say what is on their mind. You play like you have no idea what you're doing at endgame, people will criticize, berate, or even mock you whether its in game or online. Because in the end, you're wasting their time when they could've gotten another competent player instead and finished w/e they were doing.

So instead of linking them to the balance discord then kicking them and moving on people harass which will increase with an official parser. Add that on to the fact that parser aren't really needed for anything outside of theory testing and speed runs. so why waste dev time on that. It would be better if they added the rotations to the game and a way to practice it kinda like fighting games do.
10-03-2018, 03:34 AM
Zephera

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

So instead of linking them to the balance discord then kicking them and moving on people harass which will increase with an official parser.

You cannot prove this. Also it's been said already, but if someone is going to harass then they'll do it anyway, parser of not.
10-03-2018, 03:40 AM
Aerlana

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Most are gonna be "lol trash sam with 4.5k dps learn your rotation insult x y and z."

i already see this kind people kicked. EVEN if they were top DPS of the party.
If parser official are there, i hope SE will continue to kick, and ban this kind of people. If this is the toxicity some complains there, the matter is clearly not official parsers, but simply getting social rules and GM from FFXIV applying them. I have no matter about this.

An official parser is not and must not be, a pass to insult people and doing this kind of harass.

I dont care some could probably become such ass with an official parser. Because they WONT "become" they are already, now some stupid one. Just they would get situation to show how they are... and then get kicked or ban from the game... And i wont cry to loose such kind of player personally...
10-03-2018, 03:53 AM
Daibunnie

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

So instead of linking them to the balance discord then kicking them and moving on people harass which will increase with an official parser. Add that on to the fact that parser aren't really needed for anything outside of theory testing and speed runs. so why waste dev time on that. It would be better if they added the rotations to the game and a way to practice it kinda like fighting games do.

Things like a balance discord can easily be searched on their own time instead of expecting their party to do it for them. Also, you should NOT be in any clear party if you need a rotation guide of any sort, which are readily available online. A parser can tell you how many times a player is using a particular skill, what they’re dying to, how much dps is being dealt. All useful to clear efficiently.
10-03-2018, 03:59 AM
thegreatonemal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerlana

i already see this kind people kicked. EVEN if they were top DPS of the party.
If parser official are there, i hope SE will continue to kick, and ban this kind of people. If this is the toxicity some complains there, the matter is clearly not official parsers, but simply getting social rules and GM from FFXIV applying them. I have no matter about this.

An official parser is not and must not be, a pass to insult people and doing this kind of harass.

I dont care some could probably become such ass with an official parser. Because they WONT "become" they are already, now some stupid one. Just they would get situation to show how they are... and then get kicked or ban from the game... And i wont cry to loose such kind of player personally...

Its like this because the fear of god is put into players if so much as cussing can get you banned for a few days most don't even bother to confront people about there numbers. Yet people still do it anyway the number will only increase if an offical parser is added because instead a small part of the pc players using em. How much can the gms handle is a gamble for any of us to say but if they can't the community gets worse for the small little benefits. its not worth it. Focus of improving the players that means attaching people how to play the game within the game.
10-03-2018, 04:02 AM
thegreatonemal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ameela

Sell runs are literally just 7 people carrying an 8th party member that's dead weight, most even kill themselves before the fight starts.
Yes the boss reached 0 HP but the other members had to make up for the slacking party member, if all party members were equally slacking they wouldn't clear.

Most of those the sellers get on the buyers account and play the class themselves. fights were the person is dead on the floor are done when content if out geared or the BiS dps for that tier is so high that they can do that. Besides the example is current content so go carry someone through o9-12s or suzaku.
10-03-2018, 04:17 AM
Vidu

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

So instead of linking them to the balance discord then kicking them and moving on people harass which will increase with an official parser. Add that on to the fact that parser aren't really needed for anything outside of theory testing and speed runs. so why waste dev time on that. It would be better if they added the rotations to the game and a way to practice it kinda like fighting games do.

A person in need of a link to the balance discord or a job-guide shouldnt be in content were their performance actually matters, aka Savage, Ultimate or Ex-Primals, in the first place. But currently those people have no way of telling them wether or not they're actually good (enough) on their job. An official parser, showing them their numbers after a dungeon-run for example together with a number they should be aiming for (because numbers without context wont matter here), can tell a person that they need to look up about their class, before they even get into content where it matters that they know what they're doing.

One problem this game has is the lack of actual feedback, aswell as the jump in difficulty from dungeons and normal modes to Savage raids and Extremes.
By at least seeing their numbers and some sort of estimate on how good those numbers are, people who actually care, but just dont know better, can improve before they burden anyone with them needing a carry.
People who dont want to improve deserve that kick - they dont deserve harrassment or insults, but they dont deserve being carried and getting their clear on the back of 7 other people either.
No one in a clear-party should need an explantion on how their job works - they're here to learn the fight, not their rotation. Right now there isnt really anything thats telling you wether you have that down or not though - Stone, Sky, Sea is an option, but you have to go out of your way for that. Getting a message off "You achieved 30% of the damage the job you're playing on was expected to deal in this content" at the end of an encounter seems more effective to me to be honest.

Jerks will be jerks with or without a parser - and wether they're pulling good numbers or basically nothing.
10-03-2018, 04:22 AM
thegreatonemal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daibunnie

Things like a balance discord can easily be searched on their own time instead of expecting their party to do it for them. Also, you should NOT be in any clear party if you need a rotation guide of any sort, which are readily available online. A parser can tell you how many times a player is using a particular skill, what they’re dying to, how much dps is being dealt. All useful to clear efficiently.

This might be news to you but most people don't google how to play video games they buy this problem is an mmo in general issue. when i play street fighter or ff7 i don't have to google how to do haduken or insert materia I press pause and go down to move list or have a tutorial on that very subject when it becomes relevant to the game that I can revisit anytime I please
10-03-2018, 04:29 AM
Daibunnie

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

This might be news to you but most people don't google how to play video games they buy this problem is an mmo in general issue. when i play street fighter or ff7 i don't have to google how to do haduken or insert materia I press pause and go down to move list and have a tutorial on that very subject when it becomes relevant to the game that I can revisit anytime I please

Those players should stay out of savage content then. There's a reason why almost every party on pf doing savage, even practice parties, asks you to either have watched a video or know what you're doing. If you can't be bothered to even search up a basic rotation, why shoudn't people kick and berate you when you end up being the sole reason the party is getting held back? When you play any fighting game online, I really doubt you're looking up a combo list while your opponent is beating you senseless.
10-03-2018, 04:31 AM
Sigma-Astra

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

This might be news to you but most people don't google how to play video games they buy this problem is an mmo in general issue

No, because back before Googling was a thing to do, we had Bradley Strategy Game guides for almost every type of game which might be news to you. Whether you google information or read it in a book/tutorial, it gives you the same end results. The means on how to achieve the result shouldn't matter here.

There were strategy guides for FF7 as well.

Your argument that people didn't use guides on how to play video games is a poor one. It's not just an MMO issue.

You literally need a guide to play Final Fantasy X-2 or you're not getting that 100% completion ending.
10-03-2018, 04:33 AM
Vidu

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

This might be news to you but most people don't google how to play video games they buy this problem is an mmo in general issue. when i play street fighter or ff7 i don't have to google how to do haduken or insert materia I press pause and go down to move list and have a tutorial on that very subject when it becomes relevant to the game that I can revisit anytime I please

...what? Depending on the game I'm googling stuff all the time - whenever I get stuck.
The problem with an MMO here is: You might not realise that you are "stuck", because 3, 7 or 23 other people are doing your work for you and pick up your slack. You dont get individual feedback, like you would get on a solo-game - you get a group feedback of "Your group did well enough to clear this content!"
In a solo-game that means you have done well enough and clearly understood what the game is asking of you. Here... it means nothing in regards to your indivual level of skill that your group managed to clear something.

Why would there be thousands of guides out there for solo-games? Why do I have official Walkthroughs, released by SE, for FFX, FFX-2 and FFXII on my shelf? (Okay, I actually didnt bought them because I needed help, but because I was hoping to learn more about the lore and stuff in the games... bit disappointing that there wasnt that much in them)

There are strategy guides out there for solo-games and when I couldnt complete a mission in HoMM V recently I discovered that there are foren-threads filled with people giving each other advice on how to beat those missions.

The problem clearly isnt that people dont want to consulte outside sources to beat a game - the problem is that the game doesnt tell them that they might "have" to - or put some more effort into figuring stuff out by themself, because for the most part, if you read your tooltips and thinking about the skills you have, you can come up with a rotation on your own thats good enough to beat content.

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