All Greed on Alliance loot

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Originally Posted by Mendalas

It's still 1 drop per week in the new raid. People aren't gonna greed for everything. They are still gonna hold out for their drop.

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Until they've run it enough times that /any/ drop will be worth it. Which is going to be much more likely now that they're competing with seven other people who are also going to eventually get just as frustrated. There's also people who are going to roll on items just because it looks nice and they /might/ level the class in the future, as well as people who are doing it simply because they don't want 'person x' to get 'item y'. Never underestimate the power of frustration and or spite.

This change is undefendable. Especially since it doesn't even make /sense/ in the context it was proposed. If people being too scared to queue on their alt jobs was such a prevalent problem, why not just implement a token system like the eight mans have? Fighting for four potential tokens per run is much more sensible than fighting for well over thirty pieces of individual gear. Gear which isn't guaranteed to drop and now you aren't even guaranteed to get if you're playing the right class.

24 man raids are my favorite content, and it saddens me a lot to hear about the new greed-only changes. If it was just latest raid I could live with it, but it seems they're adding it to all 24 man raids. I've always been going through the extra pain of tanking those because I knew I could get the gear reliably, but now I'm not going to bother and probably just dps all 24 man raids since I'll have as much chance at getting the tank drops. I'm really curious to see the impact on queue times though, and kinda hope it explodes to force them to go back on their decision. What were they thinking?

Enla you have said it best

Never underestimate the power of frustration and or spite

People have always rolled on everything in the past and still will in the future weekly lockouts or not. Doing Greed Only solidifies it as a bad response. I mean really, tokens would be the better way of doing it. Get gear for whatever you want! None of this running RC 15 times only to still not see the tank piece I need........Cuz even Needing wasn't guaranteed if your piece would never drop!

I still think tanks won't suffer much with this. At least not initially. I doubt someone who queues for the new raid as a non-tank will be trying to get their tank geared. Else they would be on their tank for the lower queues.

Sucks for the DPS classes tho. :I

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

Well now... guys I think we can all just safely boycott Ridorana aside from getting our tokens now: Players can trade their craftable item level 350 gear with J'tandhaa in Rhalgr's Reach (X:9.6 Y:11.6) in exchange for Resistance tokens. These tokens, along with a specific enhancement item, can be exchanged for item level 360 gear.

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The weird thing about this is that a few days ago, someone translated that Yoshida said they were doing another test case for 4.3, but he didn't want to tell what it was because it would have an effect on the economy. The last time they did a test case was to make the high end crafted weapons. They were worried crafted weapons would make people not do ex primals, but then one day they decided to try it anyway at least once to see what happens. It must have worked fine because they have made high level crafted weapons ever since.

So I assume this i360 gear is the test case he was talking about and that they would be worried it hurts the Alliance raids. They are testing to see if does have any effect on the new Alliance raid, but this is the same patch they decide to go change the loot system. How they going to know people aren't doing the Alliance raid as much because of the the i360 crafter gear upgrades or because of the stupid new loot rule?

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

I still think tanks won't suffer much with this. At least not initially. I doubt someone who queues for the new raid as a non-tank will be trying to get their tank geared. Else they would be on their tank for the lower queues.

Sucks for the DPS classes tho. :I

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Actually the reverse is true. Tank queues for 24 mans have always been worse than any other role. For Weeping City, Dun Scaith, and Rabanastre tank queues the week of could range anywhere between 10-30 min because unlike other content there are more tanks than there are possible slots for them to take since it requires only three for every 24. DPS Queues on the other hand tend to be the fastest along with healers.

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Originally Posted by Mendalas

someone who has played a job for longer and has better gear is always gonna be more useful than someone who has barely played a job and has crap gear.

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It's definitely more about skill than gear/time spent playing a class. The average level of performance usually seen in 24 mans is far below what can be accounted for with gear.

When Rabanastre first came out I decided to try playing my freshly leveled, barely-past-min-iLvl Bard. Only spent maybe 10 minutes looking at a flowchart, hit a dummy once or twice, and jumped right in. Ended up coming in at least top 5 in almost every encounter. And to be clear, my performance was not great - I'm sure good BRD mains would have blown me out of the water. But even then at the bare minimum of gear and experience, my performance was significantly higher than the average. So if the discrepancy isn't gear or time spent playing the job, what could it be?

Looking at the logs, the reason is abundantly clear. I took very little damage and rarely ever died.

Also, I kept pressing buttons during all the mayhem. In the early months of Rabanastre being out I tried out a bunch of fresh alts in there and this pretty much always held true.

Dealing with mechanics is something no amount of gear or job experience can teach - it's a separate variable altogether. Ultimately, that sort of situational awareness is probably one of the most important factors when it comes to clearing even moderately challenging content. More gear can sometimes help people survive mistakes here and there, but the fact there are people dying upwards of 10-15 times (not including wipes) means the issue is far beyond gear.

I ran Rabanastre a few times again this weekend to grab some tank gear before the greed change, and I can attest first hand that even after over 6 months of this content and gear being available, average performance has not changed one bit. In fact it might have even gotten worse, since I was edging into top 5 as a tank in mostly 350 and 340 gear. There is just no excuse for that, gear or otherwise. So the big picture is that this change is likely to have very little effect on how 24-man runs go, at the cost of making obtaining specific gear much more annoying than it used to be.

After reading most of the thread... This is, at best, zero-sum. The new method and the old both have strengths and weaknesses which balance out.

BUT: only in the best-case scenarios; there is nothing presented which makes the change better overall than the existing loot method.

"Odds are 1:1 for Tanks, 2:1 for Healers, 1:1-5:1 for DPS, unfair"
Changes everyone to a theoretical average of 3:1 or so -- same average for DPS currently. They're no better off but the other two roles are worse. Petty.

"Mains can be used so runs are smoother"
Alliance raids have less individual responsibility (or exposure), varied mechanics, lower expectations, easiest full party-and-up content. Endgame players want runs clean but it's designed for newbies. They need to fail learn somewhere.

"Not that much competition"
Repeated statements on both sides of indiscriminate, even spiteful, rolling habits. Inarticulate masses will be worse.

More?

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Originally Posted by Mendalas

I definitely understand where you are coming from. Mechanics are a thing. But I still think overall it will be better.

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I have seen enough tanks, healers or DDs in content that are on their main jobs and are still bad..24 man are often even worse because you have 23 other people that could clear it for you. It wont change much for the japanese players because they already care quite a lot with helping the group so even if they went into this with their second jobs they were probably better than quite some main job players over here. And for us I believe it also wont change much. If someone is not able to play another job at least decent in group content, I just cant see how they will play miles better with their main job. (I had once a monk in my old FC that only used one skill and this was her main job.)


In an interview Yoshida wants to wait till players have seen the rule in action and if they still dont like it they will remove it...but how will our opinion change with that? This is not like job mechanics which might feel bad in text form but feel good when you play it. This is something quite simple that you can understand even without playing the content...

It's difficult because I agree with what you guys are saying about people rolling just because they can. And that it may be harder to obtain a drop that you are looking for. But I'm just trying to see the positives here in that I can roll on anything that is a nice upgrade for an alt job. I definitely think it will be harder to get a specific piece that you want. However, having the freedom of rolling on anything, it will likely be easier to get at least something for the week. There will be that piece every run that most of the party isn't going to want but you will take it since it's an upgrade and/or glamour item that you were after.

I could be wrong here, but I think we should all give it a week and test it out. Then come back and voice our complaints next week if it doesn't work out. SE will listen and if the majority hate it, they will revert the change.

I love the token idea that you guys are suggesting. That would just fix everything about this. Maybe it was just too much for them to get out this patch and its in the works! Who knows.

So.... I'm under the impression that everyone wants the SAM/MNK body from the new 24 man for glamour purposes since its the only good looking set. Sucks for the SAM and MNK mains who need it as an actual upgrade.

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Originally Posted by kupokage

So.... I'm under the impression that everyone wants the SAM/MNK body from the new 24 man for glamour purposes since its the only good looking set. Sucks for the SAM and MNK mains who need it as an actual upgrade.

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Yep. Terrible change. SE threw out 20 years of MMO etiquette on this for no good reason.

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Originally Posted by kupokage

So.... I'm under the impression that everyone wants the SAM/MNK body from the new 24 man for glamour purposes since its the only good looking set. Sucks for the SAM and MNK mains who need it as an actual upgrade.

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I take it that's the Vaan outfit or what not? If it is that's actually good news for me. Means the one outfit I wanted for glamour is not on the list of jobs I actually run remotely regularly. Just go in there until I get my cards and never look back

The tank set looks ugly to me. So i will be rolling on the SAM/MNK set because of the vaan outfit. However I think this method pleases the JP community, but hopefully they will see the error of their request and change it back.

I think maybe the people saying it's going to cause people to go on their "main" have it a little backwards. When I saw the change I assumed it was to encourage people to go on the most needed roles, regardless of what they consider their main.

Granted there's no "adventurer in need" bonus for these, but the queue times were always bad for DPS and worse for tanks, and you'd be stuck with those times if you wanted specific gear. Now many people can go on a healer job, get a much faster queue time themselves, and decrease queue times for everyone else across the board as more groups are formed.

I don't know that this is a net gain or loss, of course, just like the development team obviously doesn't since they're trying it out. Just saying that I think the idea might be more along these lines.

cleared as RDM, outrolled both healers for chest piece, BRD won the tank chest that dropped. All gloves/boots hit the floor. Its going to be sloooooooow goings if you want the shirt/pants.

https://i.imgur.com/83I7u5L.png

see yall next week

Ran as my main, Monk, was outrolled for both the MNK boots and the jacket. I officially hate this system.

wow on lockout week and people already losing to offspecs... whelp this is stupid as expected.

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Originally Posted by Derio

The tank set looks ugly to me. So i will be rolling on the SAM/MNK set because of the vaan outfit. However I think this method pleases the JP community, but hopefully they will see the error of their request and change it back.

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I don't remember the last time they addressed or even mentioned concerns of non-jp community, we are obviously second class.

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Originally Posted by MrSmiley

wow on lockout week and people already losing to offspecs... whelp this is stupid as expected.

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Its incredibly dumb. 4 rolled on the healer top, 5 on the tank. The weekly limit doesn't deter people from rolling on things, especially when the raid is new and people want to avoid requeueing for a wipefest/potential vote abandon.

This change is such an awful idea if you actually are trying to catch up on gear, which is the stated point of this gear in the first place. It's great if you want glamour for a job you hardly play, though.

Sometimes it's hard to believe SE has any idea of what they're doing. They're so tone deaf on the non-JP community that it's sad.

Yeah, I rolled on the piece that dropped and got it, I got the card and orchestrion roll this week first run, I got lucky, so all I need is to get the minion, but I'm just waiting till next week to run again. It's really stupid that I can't feasibly roll for gear I actually would want.

The 24 mans are some of my favorite content, but this left a bad taste in my mouth. This was an unneeded change.

Not to mention if someone wants so go back and get old gear, they'll have to roll against everyone else too unless they're unsyncing it, which we shouldn't have to do.

With the current raid as is and the gear currently Greed Only, it doesn't give me much incentive to go on the jobs that are needed. Would rather just show up on my off-spec DPS class that I barely play and just...do the rounds rather than heal and make sure everyone is up and alive.

Really bad idea the Greed Only considering that it makes you feel like your job in a raid is even more ungrateful.

yeah this is the worst, did a run just now on healer in rabanastre and lost everything I would have been able to need before.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

With the current raid as is and the gear currently Greed Only, it doesn't give me much incentive to go on the jobs that are needed. Would rather just show up on my off-spec DPS class that I barely play and just...do the rounds rather than heal and make sure everyone is up and alive.

Really bad idea the Greed Only considering that it makes you feel like your job in a raid is even more ungrateful.

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In short terms: "I need incencives to be credit to team, otherwise I'll slack".
I think I'm done with this thread. This community will never change.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

In short terms: "I need incencives to be credit to team, otherwise I'll slack".
I think I'm done with this thread. This community will never change.

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Except they aren't even stating that they'll slack, I certainly don't on my off-classes, simply pointing out and rightly so that going as the needed classes simply isn't worth it anymore. Why would I bother with the headache that is healing a 24 man when I can just play my MCH instead? It's less stressful and now that the /one/ reason to queue as said healer has been taken away, I don't see why I should give myself an ulcer anymore. It's really getting old seeing consistent dismissal and outright derision of people's legitimate concerns because you don't share them. If you like the change, that's fine and good and I'm happy you're enjoying it. But bashing others for not having an identical mindset isn't helping anything.

As if i'm going to tank this, which i would normally do. I'll just queue as anything else and roll on the tank gear. This change was unneeded and i don't see players running this as a tank in the long run.

I'm not going to bust my ass for an off chance for tank piece. We're all there for the gear and the old system worked just fine.

This just sucks for everyone. I rarely am in an Alliance with 3 other Dragoons. If I'm lucky, I'm the only one, at most there is a 2nd Dragoon. So as a DPS, I still usually have a 50/50 or 100% chance to get the gear I want. Now it's just free for all. Tanks, Healers, DPS, we all suffer from this.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

In short terms: "I need incencives to be credit to team, otherwise I'll slack".

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Setting aside how that's NOT what they said, like you had it pointed out to you -
I already have a full time job, and they're paying me fairly well for it. If I wanted to waste my time keeping an entire alliance alive, the least they can do is give me the Need roll. Now repeat after me: this is a game. This is a pay to play game. I will not slack off on my job, nor will I queue as anything I don't feel comfortable running as. But if I do that, I do so out of the goodness of my heart, not because there is some requirement for me to do so. No one here owes anyone else squat, and if running content with people whose attitudes don't suit you, you're free to put together a PF and run it with like-minded souls. The rest of us want to actually feel awarded for our time and effort and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that so long as we're not rude or trolling.

This needs to get back to normal, Need > Greed > Pass is a good system. If someone wants to get gear for its alters, then they should play the job, they will also get some exp playing the job. The only reason I can imagine they decided to come with this, is to make it more difficult to get your gear set, so the content will be relevant for more time

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Originally Posted by Jorge6029

This needs to get back to normal, Need > Greed > Pass is a good system. If someone wants to get gear for its alerts, then they should play the job, they will also get some exp playing the job. The only reason I can imagine is to make it more difficult to get your set so the content will be relevant for more time

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Or hell, let us roll for tokens if this was such a prevalent problem that needed fixing. Have one token needed per piece of gear, and still give us the chance to acquire one after every boss. Or even a free 'you did your job' token at the end of the raid. Rolling for 6 tokens versus 42 individual pieces that aren't guaranteed to drop and often overlap one another is a far better solution to the 'problem'. Though frankly after seeing the anger both in and out of game, they /made/ a problem out of what was a perfectly acceptable situation.

As mentioned already, the current system would work as is if there was a token reward at the end of the raid. You either get the piece you're trying to get as a drop or trade X amount of tokens for it (let's say 5-6 tokens for 1 piece) The token piece would count as a weekly raid drop piece.

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Originally Posted by Mendalas

People who roll on gear that they can't even wear are ignorant. You get 1 per week. I can't imagine that you are gonna come across people who keep doing this.

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For now you get 1 per week. It will not be this way in 4.4. Then good luck to get some gears once 4.4 is here.

Finished the raid a few minutes ago and I feel a bit bad for all healers that go into there as a main and lose the roll to someone else or me. I do play healer from time to time and its the second highest job that I have geared up but Summoner is still my main. I think nearly all of the healer drops from the raid went to someone that were not healing and I am not sure that all of them really needed it. (As in having a job high enough to use it) I am not a fan of this raid so I just wanted to be done with that thus I rolled on anything that was at least high enough that I could wear it right now on some jobs..and in the end I won the healer piece which did upgrade my job but which is not my main job.

So even after seeing it live I still hate this change!

Just finished my run. Lost the hat for my BLM to a DRG who had 0 casters leveled.

Ya they totally aren't gonna rob people.

@jijifli well that's actually sad for the dragoon. You can still roll on something you might use (technically anything since your jobs are all 70), that dragoon wasted its only roll one something he can't even use.

@Alleo
How do you know the healer wanted the healer gear? I did it as a healer and rolled on the tank pieces only.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

@Alleo
How do you know the healer wanted the healer gear? I did it as a healer and rolled on the tank pieces only.

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You can see who rolls on what pieces of gear. The DRG who rolled on the Caster hat may also just be rolling for seal turn ins or they could be leveling up a caster and are setting the gear aside for later.

Or like most people not reading patch note they could be spamming greed by default xD

If Japan wants a different loot system then give them that, dont shit on the rest of your playerbase just cause you care more about them then us.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

@jijifli well that's actually sad for the dragoon. You can still roll on something you might use (technically anything since your jobs are all 70), that dragoon wasted its only roll one something he can't even use.

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Oh I still got a caster chest with a super lucky roll. However, I felt sorry for our RDM in the party, who had a 330 hat. He could have used that, and he did roll higher than I did. Sadly, DRG wanted the hat.