Black Mage

More like 50-75% since that is where the bulk of the player base is.

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Originally Posted by IllyriaKnotfred

Honestly it really does just boil down to numbers. Just look to logs and you can see that BLM is not in a good place compared to SMN given it gives no utility and raid dps. However small that raid buff may be- they still have more personal dps than BLM to go above and beyond their raid damage. And before anyone says "But da 90-99 percentile!" Sorry, that doesn't count- as those numbers tend to be speed clears and/or padded players simply for good logs. Look at everything below it and numbers speak for themselves.

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Nono, let's be fair and give them 99th percentile.
For Alte Roite:
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17# SMN is on average 10.6 dps below SAM. Factor in rDPS and it beats SAM.
For Catastrophe:
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=43&dataset=99 70 points below SAM this time. A bit better but even if SMN only gave 100 in rDPS...it wins top spot again.
For Halicarnassus:
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=44&dataset=99 Summoner is Halicarnassus' GOD.
For ExFaust:
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=45&dataset=99 Summoner is ExFaust's GOD.
For Neo:
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=46&dataset=99 Summoner finally loses to Samurai.
Worth noting that there isn't a single fight in the savage tier where 99th percentile BLM beats 99th percentile SMN.

I was just trying to show the scope of how unbalanced it is. If it was simply just the 99th, more room for argument. When its everywherewhat argument can be made? I mean seriously check every bracket from 50-100, SMN complete annihilates BLM. It's that simple.

Oh, after checking again it seems I was off. From 0 - 100 SMN beats them all? Yup, balanced. The class that has rez utility and short cooldown Devotion raid damage is beating BLM by leaps and bounds. /rolls eyes

When I said not viable at endgame I meant specifically endgame regarding team coordination and synergy, so your definition of sub-optimal could also apply. Sorry for the confusion.


It's pretty much undeniable from anyone who has played both BLM and SMN that there is a balance issue, so I think we should either get back to suggestion dumping in this thread or make a new one explicitly for suggestion dumps.

DW, just making sure we use the right terms.

That aside I think we already said much, although I don't believe SE will make any huge changes in the 4.x so personally I don't expect anything more than some number changes, which could be beneficial, but maybe some notes could be kept alive for 5.0

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Originally Posted by IllyriaKnotfred

Honestly it really does just boil down to numbers. Just look to logs and you can see that BLM is not in a good place compared to SMN given it gives no utility and raid dps. However small that raid buff may be- they still have more personal dps than BLM to go above and beyond their raid damage. And before anyone says "But da 90-99 percentile!" Sorry, that doesn't count- as those numbers tend to be speed clears and/or padded players simply for good logs. Look at everything below it and numbers speak for themselves.

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I agree with what you said but not exactly how you're saying it. BLM absolutely needs help because SMN/SAM and even MNK are pretty consistently hitting better numbers than BLM. At every level, not just at the top end. The top end though is where you get the very good players who are not making mechanical mistakes with the class (dropping eno, minimizing movement, efficient use of ogcd's, efficient rotations), which can be considered as playing at the skill ceiling. Trying to exclude people playing the job the best (90-98%) in this discussion misses a crucial part of job balance: what the potential is at the skill ceiling.People like that have functionally maximized the potential of BLM and are STILL having issues finding groups/getting locked out of PF, since you get functionally out-dps'ed by a 75%ile bard. That means that being the one of the BEST BLM's playing at a high level (without doing 99/100 cheese) you're still worth less than that random 70-80%ile bard/mch.

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Originally Posted by Solyra

Yep.

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I agree 100%. I probably didn't explain appropriately. I'm not the best at it lol. But felt the need to talk about it.

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Originally Posted by Solyra

That means that being the one of the BEST BLM's playing at a high level (without doing 99/100 cheese) you're still worth less than that random 70-80%ile bard/mch.

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cant agree more :(

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

snip

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agree...., and Shinryu Ex is hell too for blm (last phase is crazy)

and as for Blm friendly, O2S does feel friendly, more than O1S (O3S depends on a few things and last phase is nuts.. and we lose a lot, when we caster LB during the Ninjas, most are dead after the LB (thats were we could shine a bit, if we could aoe ourselves)

in general, we need adds than can survive a full blm aoe rota in savage, and not just 2 adds, without having to LB

anyway, its you said, like Blm need to play near perfectly, which often takes longer than other classes,
AND/OR Blm need to have procs at the right time,
AND have to have the party (healers) that help out, with an extra heals or shields

.. can see SE wanting to get more players on SMN and shift away from Blm a maybe from Rdm a bit too (both Blm and Rdm are probably still quite a overused casters in raids), since SMN has lost players since 4.0,

but.., svcks to be Blm atm

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Originally Posted by Solyra

That means that being the one of the BEST BLM's playing at a high level (without doing 99/100 cheese) you're still worth less than that random 70-80%ile bard/mch.

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yes! have to underline this too..

(and its more like your worth less than any other dps)

maybe a general SS buff of equivalent 300-450 SS could fix Blm temporarily/fast (making all casts ca. 0.3-0.4 sec faster) .. till they adress and fix the real/complex Blm issues

BLM is fine and really fun. I do so much damage and no one has kicked me for playing BLM in high-end or hardcore content like expert dungeons and susano/lakshmi.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

AND have to have the party (healers) that help out, with an extra heals or shields

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No offense but I don't understand this, most aoes now come packed with nasty debuffs made exactly to snipe on us

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Originally Posted by Greetings-Goodbye

BLM is fine and really fun. I do so much damage and no one has kicked me for playing BLM in high-end or hardcore content like expert dungeons and susano/lakshmi.

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I'm sorry but Susano/Lakshmi and dungeons are not considered hardcore content. That title is for Savage.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

yes! have to underline this too..

(and its more like your worth less than any other dps)

maybe a general SS buff of equivalent 300-450 SS could fix Blm temporarily/fast (making all casts ca. 0.3-0.4 sec faster) .. till they adress and fix the real/complex Blm issues

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Except it wouldn't really, because Foul is on a 30s timer. The reason we still have convert is because it makes it reasonable to have foul in your first opener, and even then only barely. It would make the rotation feel a lot less fluid for a slight damage increase. It also doesn't change the fundamental issue that SE considers any kind of range as "utility", and doesn't consider buffs like hypercharge to be damage. At the end of the day, even SAM is falling behind in raid damage due to the second part, despite being the "best Single target damage" (which also isn't true). SMN is honestly reasonable with respect to drg/nin/mch/brd, but that only shows how far behind BLM/SAM and to an extent RDM are.

Ok serious talk about a possible magic weakness added to our rotation.

I think it could work and honestly should be added by now to balance out with melee weaknesses also the more I think about it and the more it fits in the selfish dps style while also beign a rdps boost

Doesn't fix all the problems, also still phisical dmg will rule because of no other support (and let's be honest LB too) but it would be a start

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Ok serious talk about a possible magic weakness added to our rotation.

I think it could work and honestly should be added by now to balance out with melee weaknesses also the more I think about it and the more it fits in the selfish dps style while also beign a rdps boost

Doesn't fix all the problems, also still phisical dmg will rule because of no other support (and let's be honest LB too) but it would be a start

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I'd love to see that. Been saying that for a long time. Even Sam can boost its own dps, only fair if they give us a tool to do it too.
Could be tied to Umbra Hearts, while they're up Blm gets a magic dmg buff.

I'm thinking more of a proper debuff on the target like 45 secs that makes him taking 10% more magical dmg

Let's say applied by B4 to give it some oomph I think we discussed about it in the past

45 seconds of 10% more magic damage? Seems kinda much

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Originally Posted by IllyriaKnotfred

Anyone who says BLM gameplay is "Only FireIV spam and refresh when you finish MP" obviously has no idea what they are talking about.

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Nope, that's why i've only good % lol. Before speaking, maybe check what other ppl do, like i did w/ you about SMN and RDM.

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Originally Posted by Komaru_Tatoro

^like he said. ppl have no idea how trying to keep enochian up for polyglot is a pain with the limited timer of af/ui

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As i said upper, check before talking. And tell me, why you have to refresh manually Enochian? Can't you use like transpose and after swiftcast/blizzard III/Blizzard IV and go dps again instead to loose Enochian (and polyglot counter)? Maybe i play in a different way than 90% Black mages, or 90% BLM do wrong stuff?

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Originally Posted by Demoniun

As i said upper, check before talking. And tell me, why you have to refresh manually Enochian? Can't you use like transpose and after swiftcast/blizzard III/Blizzard IV and go dps again instead to loose Enochian (and polyglot counter)? Maybe i play in a different way than 90% Black mages, or 90% BLM do wrong stuff?

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....what. I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here.

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Originally Posted by VitalSuit

....what. I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here.

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She's saying she's high % on FFLogs so that means she knows what she's talking about.

And most of these arguments are pointless or redundant.

BLM just needs more personal damage for a raw DPS job without party buffs, regardless of playability (which is fine, but that's subjective), or mobility (which can be learned and optimized as needed)

This is actually an identical problem that BLM had from 2.0-2.2 funny enough. Summoner beat it in personal DPS (therefore raid DPS), and Black Mage only had it beat in AOE. Apocatastasis was trash, but a second traited Virus was very useful. There was no point to BLM in raids (other than T4) when SMN existed. Guess what happened in 2.3? Fire, Fire III, Blizzard III and Blizzard had a potency increase of 20, and Apocatastasis was made useful. Source: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...582d59335acd84 When you think simple potency buffs can't help a raw DPS job, look at those 2.3 buffs. Sure, the meta of this game is very different than it was then, but this is definitely not a difficult issue to solve.

Completely agree with above post. I've mained BLM since 2.4, and I honestly love the job.

About 2 weeks ago my static disbanded, and since then I have not been able to find a static, and have barley been able to even pug in PF.
People are actually auto locking BLM out of pf groups just so they don't have to deal with them. This is on Aether, and I've seen it more and more lately..

Potency buffs are really all we need for the most part.

I probably wont be able to get into a MC or higher static now, so I really, really hope SE see's this thread..

The point of adding a magic vulnerability debuff on B4 is: to give a dmg boost to BLM and passively giving some raid utility to the BLM( while also making B4 worth casting)

Mind you won't be enough to kill the ranged meta but it might give some alternatives like a SMN +BLM comp

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Originally Posted by Demoniun

Nope, that's why i've only good % lol. Before speaking, maybe check what other ppl do, like i did w/ you about SMN and RDM.



As i said upper, check before talking. And tell me, why you have to refresh manually Enochian? Can't you use like transpose and after swiftcast/blizzard III/Blizzard IV and go dps again instead to loose Enochian (and polyglot counter)? Maybe i play in a different way than 90% Black mages, or 90% BLM do wrong stuff?

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tell me how can you tranpose in a shinryu ex qte??
tell how can i keep my enochian going when i have to lb3 in o3s during nin/gaint add phase if im the only caster???

now within the same condition, tell me how much smn/rdm dps will drop compare to a blm?

but seriously im not picking you but the typical blm rotation, switch af to ui or losing 1 f4 for 1 f1 or even using up a swiftcast sometime equate to a dps lost because its not optimal. now where as other caster what other consequence will be similar to blm losing dps because the need to switch or upkeep enochian?
it takes practice to a degree to learn how much f4 you can fit until next mechanic.
but im curious, how much dps lose if smn waste a baha during phase change compare to blm losing enochian? any1 that played smn to a certain degree tell me?

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Originally Posted by Remedi

The point of adding a magic vulnerability debuff on B4 is: to give a dmg boost to BLM and passively giving some raid utility to the BLM( while also making B4 worth casting)

Mind you won't be enough to kill the ranged meta but it might give some alternatives like a SMN +BLM comp

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reminds me of how i miss raging strike :(

Then don't lb. Make your ranged do it. Problem solved. Caster lb is the worst by far out of all of them. Teach your pugs that ranged lb is superior because of the shorter lock duration. It provides greater dps than a caster lb. If you're lbing as a blm you're doing it wrong

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Originally Posted by KumiKuzumi

Then don't lb. Make your ranged do it. Problem solved. Caster lb is the worst by far out of all of them. Teach your pugs that ranged lb is superior because of the shorter lock duration. It provides greater dps than a caster lb. If you're lbing as a blm you're doing it wrong

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i dont got the luxury to do that in a pf without being kick for being selfish.
has that become a norm thing in pug already for range melee to do lb3? if that so, why would they need any caster?

the whole point of me bringing that up was to compare to a smn/rdm after they drop whatever equavilant akind to enochian and how much dps lost once they recover back.
i was in a pf with a smn that lb3 and i was astonish that him/her using lb3 barely dip his/her dps in comparison to blm losing enochian because it takes ~15s long

all i ever want is a even playing field, dont care about dps even if it stays the same. i just want the general public to view blm = smn/rdm and not get outcasted when it comes to high end prog like unending coil or pf clear group that once they got a rdm or smn they dont need a blm.

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Originally Posted by KumiKuzumi

Then don't lb. Make your ranged do it. Problem solved. Caster lb is the worst by far out of all of them. Teach your pugs that ranged lb is superior because of the shorter lock duration. It provides greater dps than a caster lb. If you're lbing as a blm you're doing it wrong

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uh? you do know, the caster LB does more damage than the ranged (Brd/Mch) LB...

Ranged lb takes 10 seconds. Caster lb takes 15 seconds. Not even counting the gcd gain/loss between the two, the ranged lb has higher dps

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Originally Posted by KumiKuzumi

Ranged lb takes 10 seconds. Caster lb takes 15 seconds. Not even counting the gcd gain/loss between the two, the ranged lb has higher dps

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i dont disagree with you but will the general public accept it and let you not lb3 without kicking you out of the pf?
it just feel like the proposition is more toward the top %. but what do i know, im just a a dime in a dozen avg blm.

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Originally Posted by KumiKuzumi

Ranged lb takes 10 seconds. Caster lb takes 15 seconds. Not even counting the gcd gain/loss between the two, the ranged lb has higher dps

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5 sec for a bigger area of effect

raw damage, caster Lb still does more damage (and 5 sec => caster/Blm wont compensate with 2x flares with only 5y reach)

But then you're not counting the difference of damage on the jobs using the LB and the loss that happens on the time do you?

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

5 sec for a bigger area of effect

raw damage, caster Lb still does more damage (and 5 sec => caster/Blm wont compensate with 2x flares with only 5y reach)

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I mean, it's irrelevant in both cases. Whoever isn't doing the limitbreak is likely just padding off AoE that doesn't matter anyways. Anything more than 5-10% to the ninjas is padding meters.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

But then you're not counting the difference of damage on the jobs using the LB and the loss that happens on the time do you?

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true, blm aoe is strong, but try to convince the party, the weaker Lb with a smaller area of effect should be casted, so the blm/caster personal dps can go up

im not even sure why we should continue the discussion like this. i mean the reason i brought up things the kill blm enochian upkeep was that there was a comment of saying blm is less complicated than smn or in somewhere down that line. so i brought it up as upkeeping cd buff/enochian isnt exactly a easy thing while still maintaining good dps and dropping it is consider a bigger dps lost.

now i did ask how in dps comparison would the smn lose dps when they misss baha or clipping a af. so any1 can answer that question for me?

not here to argue, just want to say that ea class has their own petpeeves too. im open for friendly discussion.

Well, most here already brought the point that would truly fix BLM to light, which is basically "give us actual high damage". So all we do is remind the thread of that from time to time and keep making noise.

At least we Blm are civilised and only make one thread instead of spamming the forums with dozens of them

im curious would dev ever read these discusion we make.

Directly def not, since they probably cannot read english, but they receive a condensed feedback from the community manager and from them they decide what to do, if it can be done in a reasonable amount of time if they can come up with alternatives etc.

Point is when we don't get exactly what we ask for it doesn't really means that they do not care,

It also helps that all discussion is condensed in 1 topic as it makes easier for community manager to better condense the problem/s and feedbacks

I feel like while condensing the discussion makes it nice for readers. It also makes it easier for devs to put it lower on their priority list. The squeaky wheel gets the oil after all, and whenever specific jobs are left behind a bit they seem to get fixed much faster than the ones that don't spam the forums and Reddit with multiple threads.