NO MORE ALEXANDER(NM)!

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

One possible solution (as already proposed) would be to add a "third" version, "Normal Mode" and simply double the drops in Savage.

So we'd have the following layout:
Story Mode: 190 gear (tokens), basic mechanics.
Normal Mode (Roughly Coil Difficulty): 210 gear (2 items), new mechanics, slightly higher boss hp/damage output, MAYBE a bonus boss or new phase in every fight to add an experience or minor lore incentive, without affecting the outcomes from Story Mode.
Savage Mode (Current Savage Difficulty): 210 gear (4 items), no new mechanics from Normal Mode, just tighter dps and healing checks.

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No thanks.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

How in the hells could you ever possibly believe that making the rewards for NM Alexander irrelevant crap "would've satisfied both camps". Do you think hardcore raiders are happy when people suggest that Savage shouldn't drop anything?

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Well I suggested something similar and my reasoning was because all the complaints about coil I was hearing were about wanting to see the story. SE already has a precedent for the "story mode" in some of the later hard mode primals (leviathan, shiva, ramuh, etc), and no one complains about not getting gear there (or I having been hearing any) so I thought it was a workable formula.

The only problem I have with alexander as a whole (so far) is how the game encouraged you to run the normal mode fights repeatedly so that you would be as prepared as possible to challenge savage mode. I already kinda dread the next set because of that. Really wish it was a one and done type of deal.

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Originally Posted by Khyan

And hope the dev doesn't nerf/echo savage since normal mode is here.

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I doubt they will add echo in savage, atleast i dont really see the need for it due NM mode just like you said.

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Originally Posted by Mutemutt

Well I suggested something similar and my reasoning was because all the complaints about coil I was hearing were about wanting to see the story. SE already has a precedent for the "story mode" in some of the later hard mode primals (leviathan, shiva, ramuh, etc), and no one complains about not getting gear there (or I having been hearing any) so I thought it was a workable formula.

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Yeah but how many times do people actually run NM Levi, Ramuh and Shiva? I did each of those once and never returned. SE apparently wants Alexander NM to be something for the casual crowd to have fun with. Remove the rewards and people will do them as often as they do the primals I mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Yeah but how many times do people actually run NM Levi, Ramuh and Shiva? I did each of those once and never returned. SE apparently wants Alexander NM to be something for the casual crowd to have fun with. Remove the rewards and people will do them as often as they do the primals I mentioned.

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Which is exactly what I said I wanted (in that same post too). I hate running NM alex over and over, but the game encourages me to do so. Is NM really that much fun for the "casual" crowd? I'll be honest, it seems about as fun as running Fractal or Nevereap 10 ~ 20 times in a row just collecting eso tomes.

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Originally Posted by Mutemutt

Which is exactly what I said I wanted (in that same post too). I hate running NM alex over and over, but the game encourages me to do so. Is NM really that much fun for the "casual" crowd? I'll be honest, it seems about as fun as running Fractal or Nevereap 10 ~ 20 times in a row just collecting eso tomes.

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So because you hate it, they should have it award nothing?

To fix the "over and over" they can limit you to one loot eligible run per week and be done with it.

The reason normal is annoying is that you can keep running it until you get your drop, which causes burnout.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Yeah but how many times do people actually run NM Levi, Ramuh and Shiva?

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Light farming, TT cards, minions, glamour etc.. There are ways to get peoples back in there after initial clear, and when new relic comes im 99% of sure we will see "i dont want to do old content again" topics popping left and right.

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Originally Posted by Mutemutt

Which is exactly what I said I wanted (in that same post too). I hate running NM alex over and over, but the game encourages me to do so. Is NM really that much fun for the "casual" crowd? I'll be honest, it seems about as fun as running Fractal or Nevereap 10 ~ 20 times in a row just collecting eso tomes.

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I find it fun, I sometimes still run A3 because it's the most fun of the 4. /shrug It's sure as hell more fun than Neverreap and Fractal though, especially since it's just bosses and not a few dozen trash mobs and then a boss that goes down in 2 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

So because you hate it, they should have it award nothing?

To fix the "over and over" they can limit you to one loot eligible run per week and be done with it.

The reason normal is annoying is that you can keep running it until you get your drop, which causes burnout.

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I can't really speak for everyone, and I don't pretend to, so yeah, I say this based on my own experiences and those I play with. And, to be honest, I get those drops pretty quick now, 1 or 2 tries usually because I'll take pretty much anything at this point, and it's still tiring. I've pretty much stopped doing it entirely. I'm gonna say that as soon as savage came out, normal lost what little luster it had and became a chore.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Light farming, TT cards, minions, glamour etc.. There are ways to get peoples back in there after initial clear, and when new relic comes im 99% of sure we will see "i dont want to do old content again" topics popping left and right.

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So let me repeat what I posted earlier. Do you really think hardcore raiders would want Savage Alexander to only be useful for light farming, TT cards, minions, glamour, etc? No? then don't suggest that would be ok for casual players.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

So let me repeat what I posted earlier. Do you really think hardcore raiders would want Savage Alexander to only be useful for light farming, TT cards, minions, glamour, etc? No? then don't suggest that would be ok for casual players.

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Because it's what the "casual" playerbase initially asked for?

I remember a few dozen threads from players asking for Coil to be nerfed into the ground or to just offer a story mode because they didn't care about / want the gear but rather just wanted to see the story, however they felt the content was too difficult.

At the time the "hardcore" and "midcore" players just wanted to retain the baseline difficulty of coil because they felt it had a decent balance and enjoyed the fights as they were, however most players either didn't care or were open to a story mode being added to appease those who wanted to see the content as well. Instead we got echo nerfs which took the experience away from a large number of the midcore players who had yet to enter at the time, with the "casual" crowd telling them to "just do Savage" as if it were remotely the same thing.

Now with Alexander release they've gone a step further and released content with a gap that pretty much ignores the "midcore" playerbase entirely and discourages a large number of the "hardcore" from even bothering because they quickly get burned out.

Personally i don't care if story mode does or doesn't reward gear, but lets not play the "Would the hardcores want this!?" game when many of the players who are complaining in regards to Savage and normal were perfectly fine with the initial coil releases and we're only at this point because it was the other side raising complaints, the same side that is once again trying to say "well just do Savage then!!!"

I think ultimately the problem is that they tried to join the ideas of a story mode with the midcore ceiling of the game, and instead of having both a regularly difficult mode and a Savage, we only got the latter.

Say what people will about WoW, at least they embrace this splintering.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

I doubt they will add echo in savage, atleast i dont really see the need for it due NM mode just like you said.

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The problem there is the unique gear drops. The original Savages didn't have this worry, but this one does, and they probably don't want people having to worry so much about the mechanics and such if they're going to backfarm for the glamor and experience, and/or to balance out it being added to DF (which again, it probably will be due to gear drops). I'm thinking it's pretty likely it will see echo.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

How in the hells could you ever possibly believe that making the rewards for NM Alexander irrelevant crap "would've satisfied both camps". Do you think hardcore raiders are happy when people suggest that Savage shouldn't drop anything?

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Suggested rewards for NM would've satisfied the camp that were asking for a story version of Coil with easier mechanics, and no loot. Case in point:

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It's been a long time since we first asked for it. A version of the coil which would only serves the purpose of giving the story to players.

=> no loot at all
=> eased version compared to normal (less damage, few to none OH-KO moves)
=> does not grant access to the next normal coil

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-mode-isn-t-it

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Suggested rewards for NM would've satisfied the camp that were asking for a story version of Coil with easier mechanics, and no loot. Case in point:

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What's up with those posters who are recommending watching it on YouTube? How about I unsubscribe and watch the game on YouTube? I can do that for every Final Fantasy to come too, since they're mostly story oriented. /smh

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Suggested rewards for NM would've satisfied the camp that were asking for a story version of Coil with easier mechanics, and no loot. Case in point:

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I think this is a very small group, and as Colorful points out, YouTube does accomplish the same. I wouldn't feel anywhere near the same immersion if something as impressive as Bahamut was so watered down.

And that's also the issue with Alex NM. Gear is pretty much 'not loot', since you're going to be replace it and there's little/no consideration for BiS involving lower-tiered gear, mechanics are stripped, and we don't know about access methodology. And people are mostly not happy with this.

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Originally Posted by Arashmin

I think this is a very small group, and as Colorful points out, YouTube does accomplish the same. I wouldn't feel anywhere near the same immersion if something as impressive as Bahamut was so watered down.

And that's also the issue with Alex NM. Gear is pretty much 'not loot', since you're going to be replace it and there's little/no consideration for BiS involving lower-tiered gear, mechanics are stripped, and we don't know about access methodology. And people are mostly not happy with this.

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I agree. To me, if you really want something you should be prepared to put in work for it. However, SE felt inclined to appeal to that crowd, and now here we are. Maybe if they'd separated the two from the on-set, without needing the gear in order to be Savage-ready, then perhaps things would've been different.

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Originally Posted by Mutemutt

I can't really speak for everyone, and I don't pretend to, so yeah, I say this based on my own experiences and those I play with. And, to be honest, I get those drops pretty quick now, 1 or 2 tries usually because I'll take pretty much anything at this point, and it's still tiring. I've pretty much stopped doing it entirely. I'm gonna say that as soon as savage came out, normal lost what little luster it had and became a chore.

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Didn't have to keep doing it after Savage came out.

Could have spent esoteric tomes on chest/legs and not finished those pieces at all.

Plenty of ways you "could" have done it and after job 1, I really isn't necessary at all.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Suggested rewards for NM would've satisfied the camp that were asking for a story version of Coil with easier mechanics, and no loot. Case in point:

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And had they done it, and kept Savage as it is, you'd be bleeding folks left and right.

Plus, I have 0 desire to farm super easy story content for anything that *isn't* gear; I don't even have TT unlocked and I'm not a Pokémon collector.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Didn't have to keep doing it after Savage came out.

Could have spent esoteric tomes on chest/legs and not finished those pieces at all.

Plenty of ways you "could" have done it and after job 1, I really isn't necessary at all.

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You did for gear, iirc. Savage was 2 weeks after normal or was it 4? 4 weeks at the very least for the normal chest piece. Gonna say yeah. But I distintly remember trying to gear my main job during savage.
And that's considering being at the level cap when it released in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

And had they done it, and kept Savage as it is, you'd be bleeding folks left and right.

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Like I mentioned in my original post, had they done it, and tuned Savage to match the difficulty of Coil it would have satisfied both groups.

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Didn't have to keep doing it after Savage came out.

Could have spent esoteric tomes on chest/legs and not finished those pieces at all.

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No serious raider would intentionally deprive themselves (and by extension, their group) of the best gear available going into the most difficult content of the game at present. Don't be ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Mutemutt

You did for gear, iirc. Savage was 2 weeks after normal or was it 4? 4 weeks at the very least for the normal chest piece. Gonna say yeah. But I distintly remember trying to gear my main job during savage.
And that's considering being at the level cap when it released in the first place.

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Buy chest/legs as first two and you'd have them by the time you hit the 5 week full alex normal point.

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Originally Posted by FeliAiko

Like I mentioned in my original post, had they done it, and tuned Savage to match the difficulty of Coil it would have satisfied both groups.



No serious raider would intentionally deprive themselves (and by extension, their group) of the best gear available going into the most difficult content of the game at present. Don't be ridiculous.

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Anyone serious enough about preventing burnout won't do anything that'll cause them to abandon said raid team because of burnout.

And you're just reinforcing the "run multiple times until you get your loot" thing was a failure contributing to the burnout.

one kill for loot per week. Run it once for the week and you can't loot it again. Done. There, no more burnout.

Hell, share lockout with Savage for all I care.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Buy chest/legs as first two and you'd have them by the time you hit the 5 week full alex normal point.

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So 2~3-ish weeks of running normal plus savage at the same time? Which is what I was saying. And this assuming you went about this perfectly. Because we know how much more troublesome it is to continually run looking for a specific piece (and having to roll against many others for pretty much every piece because everyone was after the same stuff, or having to grab a full party and run it for who knows how long to get everyone a drop), but every time you don't take the shaft costs you an extra week. Altogether, a very tiring, and tedious experience.

Ultimately, what I really want is to have normal alexander to be truly skippable. I don't want to have to run the tuned down version of the fight to prepare for the savage one. I want to be able to do all the normal floors just once, and move on to the version of the fight that actually holds my interest.

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Originally Posted by Mutemutt

So 2~3-ish weeks of running normal plus savage at the same time? Which is what I was saying. And this assuming you went about this perfectly. Because we know how much more troublesome it is to continually run looking for a specific piece (and having to roll against many others for pretty much every piece because everyone was after the same stuff, or having to grab a full party and run it for who knows how long to get everyone a drop), but every time you don't take the shaft costs you an extra week. Altogether, a very tiring, and tedious experience.

Ultimately, what I really want is to have normal alexander to be truly skippable. I don't want to have to run the tuned down version of the fight to prepare for the savage one. I want to be able to do all the normal floors just once, and move on to the version of the fight that actually holds my interest.

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I don't even want to do the normal version once.

Just give the same exact quest to complete normal or savage, then we don't have to see a single cut-scene in normal (because we don't have to run it) and we can let the story titillate us as we progress through savage.

You people are acting like spoiled little brats that are complaining to mommy and daddy that someone is playing with your toys.

Why are you people crying over this? Why so serious over bits on a screen? why do dis? If you don't want to run NM then only run each area once to unlock Savage Mode then wait for SM to come out.

SE is doing there best to give all types of players a chance to enjoy the game the way they like to play.

NM is for low mid core to high mid core groups. SM is for high mid core to hard core players out there.


NM is for folks who want to gear up and enjoy the content that isn't to extreme. They still grind their little tooshes off going for the i190 gear. SM is for folks that like to grind for gear and have there heads slapped around while doing it.

TO each their own.... but seriously I have never seen a company that tries this hard to please every kind of player out there. Be grateful that you 10% of hardcore players out there are getting attention from the devs.... So let it go and play the dang game.

You can't have your cake and eat it to..... life doesn't work that way so be grateful that you get some nice raids to play in.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

You people are acting like spoiled little brats that are complaining to mommy and daddy that someone is playing with your toys.Why are you people crying over this? Why so serious over bits on a screen? why do dis? If you don't want to run NM then only run each area once to unlock Savage Mode then wait for SM to come out.

SE is doing there best to give all types of players a chance to enjoy the game the way they like to play.

NM is for low mid core to high mid core groups. SM is for high mid core to hard core players out there.


NM is for folks who want to gear up and enjoy the content that isn't to extreme. They still grind their little tooshes off going for the i190 gear. SM is for folks that like to grind for gear and have there heads slapped around while doing it.

TO each their own.... but seriously I have never seen a company that tries this hard to please every kind of player out there. Be grateful that you 10% of hardcore players out there are getting attention from the devs.... So let it go and play the dang game.

You can't have your cake and eat it to..... life doesn't work that way so be grateful that you get some nice raids to play in.

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WoW does it better, there is no reason that SE can't meet that standard. Customers are entitled to speak about products they are paying for.

Also, before someone just says "go play wow" I would love to as soon as they stop putting level boosts in the cash shop.
You're asking us to stop being childish? How about you stop being an apologist? http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apologist just in case you don't know. You know how things get better? Feedback.

You're the one coming off bratty. Like a little assuming child making presumptuous statements about content you don't even run and about people you don't even play with. Then, instead of addressing any feedback directly, you just come in to post ad hominem attacks rather than trying to meet any of the post or people half way. YOU, sir/ma'am, are the child.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

You people are acting like spoiled little brats that are complaining to mommy and daddy that someone is playing with your toys.

Why are you people crying over this? Why so serious over bits on a screen? why do dis? If you don't want to run NM then only run each area once to unlock Savage Mode then wait for SM to come out.

SE is doing there best to give all types of players a chance to enjoy the game the way they like to play.

NM is for low mid core to high mid core groups. SM is for high mid core to hard core players out there.


NM is for folks who want to gear up and enjoy the content that isn't to extreme. They still grind their little tooshes off going for the i190 gear. SM is for folks that like to grind for gear and have there heads slapped around while doing it.

TO each their own.... but seriously I have never seen a company that tries this hard to please every kind of player out there. Be grateful that you 10% of hardcore players out there are getting attention from the devs.... So let it go and play the dang game.

You can't have your cake and eat it to..... life doesn't work that way so be grateful that you get some nice raids to play in.

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Sorry, but as much as people try to act as such this game doesn't exist in a vacuum.

MMORPGs as a genre have existed for well over a decade and SE as a company has well over 13 years of experience and 3 active titles in the field, One of which has already handled situations like this far better than what we're currently dealing with.

This is also an issue when the competition is doing it better.

Saying "Just be happy with what we have!!!!!" doesn't alert the devs to systems that may need changing, systems that players are already leaving the game over, this by no means signals the end of the game but it's statements like those that eventually lead to games crashing and burning.

Customer feedback means that if they wish to charge a recurring subscription for the game, then players are more than welcome to express opinions about content they aren't enjoying, you personally don't have to listen to or like those opinions but they have every right to be voiced if the developers want this game to thrive.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

You people are acting like spoiled little brats that are complaining to mommy and daddy that someone is playing with your toys.

Why are you people crying over this? Why so serious over bits on a screen? why do dis? If you don't want to run NM then only run each area once to unlock Savage Mode then wait for SM to come out.

SE is doing there best to give all types of players a chance to enjoy the game the way they like to play.

NM is for low mid core to high mid core groups. SM is for high mid core to hard core players out there.


NM is for folks who want to gear up and enjoy the content that isn't to extreme. They still grind their little tooshes off going for the i190 gear. SM is for folks that like to grind for gear and have there heads slapped around while doing it.

TO each their own.... but seriously I have never seen a company that tries this hard to please every kind of player out there. Be grateful that you 10% of hardcore players out there are getting attention from the devs.... So let it go and play the dang game.

You can't have your cake and eat it to..... life doesn't work that way so be grateful that you get some nice raids to play in.

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Thats just utterly stupid nonsense and it sums up perfectly what is wrong with a part of the community.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

TO each their own.... but seriously I have never seen a company that tries this hard to please every kind of player out there. Be grateful that you 10% of hardcore players out there are getting attention from the devs....[/U][/B] So let it go and play the dang game.

You can't have your cake and eat it to..... life doesn't work that way so be grateful that you get some nice raids to play in.

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You really want SE to lose 10% of subscribers? We're not talking about life but we're talking about a game we're paying for and that can be changed at will.

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Originally Posted by Astral145

NM is for low mid core to high mid core groups.

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ROFL

NM was on farm for that kind of groups on day one.

You've abolutely no clue what you are talking about.

Low midcore and midcore groups get together with the aim, to finish the raid content before the next tier come out. So their progress duration is around 5 to 6 month, not 1 day.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Anyone serious enough about preventing burnout won't do anything that'll cause them to abandon said raid team because of burnout.

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1: If you are a raider you go for the best gear to help progression. When NM alex was released, there was no Savage or Esoterics gear, we knew Savage was coming next so raiders geared best they could by running the madatory progression path in Normal Savage.
2: No-one was able to predict how Savage was going to be until after it was released. No-one predicted burnout would occur. No raiders have a crystal ball to predict the future.

So, your point?

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

ROFL

NM was on farm for that kind of groups on day one.

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Even better, Savage normal was cleared in DF on day 1.

Alexander sucks! Can we just kick him back down into the water and get a new raid? Maybe drop a meteor on it? FFXIV: A Raid Reborn?

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

Alexander sucks! Can we just kick him back down into the water and get a new raid? Maybe drop a meteor on it? FFXIV: A Raid Reborn?

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It could be worse, like having the entire story centered around the Illuminati.

The Illuminati have to be the least interesting group of characters in the game, they're fine for a dungeon but why did SE have to go make a raid with them? To call them the "Illuminati" too...

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Originally Posted by Colorful

It could be worse, like having the entire story centered around the Illuminati.

The Illuminati have to be the least interesting group of characters in the game, they're fine for a dungeon but why did SE have to go make a raid with them? To call them the "Illuminati" too...

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Have to respectfully disagree. The Illuminati are wonderful and rich characters compared to Mide, whose scar has more personality than she does.

They're also not called the Illuminati in Japanese... they're called the "Blue Hands". Not sure why they were localized to Illuminati.

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Originally Posted by adn

Have to respectfully disagree. The Illuminati are wonderful and rich characters compared to Mide, whose scar has more personality than she does.

They're also not called the Illuminati in Japanese... they're called the "Blue Hands". Not sure why they were localized to Illuminati.

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Because Western (NA) audiences have a really hard time associating small races with anything other than cute, quirky, or crazy.

Mide has the same problem that Catboi from Crystal Tower had. They show up out of no-where with the odd presumption that they're important. And, despite not helping you in any meaningful way, they show up in the ending cutscene to act like they totally were.
WoW had important NPCs actually contribute in Raid fights, remember ICC? Heck, Cid, Biggs, and Wedge help fight Bismarck. If you want people to actually like characters, it pays to have them actually do something.

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Originally Posted by adn

Have to respectfully disagree. The Illuminati are wonderful and rich characters compared to Mide, whose scar has more personality than she does.

They're also not called the Illuminati in Japanese... they're called the "Blue Hands". Not sure why they were localized to Illuminati.

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Well, I did say group of characters but if I were to chose the worst of the Alexander raid it would have to be Mide undoubtedly. I'm sure they have something planned for it and I'm sure it will be terrible, but it would have been better if they just made Alexander seem like a legitimate threat on par with Bahamut, and brought back Alisae... or just have no supporting character. I'm sorry but I can't take someone from the Illuminati who wears a cat-hat seriously, Blue Hands is a much better name. Sometimes the localization team goes overboard with the localization, you don't really need to localize a name.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

Alexander sucks! Can we just kick him back down into the water and get a new raid? Maybe drop a meteor on it? FFXIV: A Raid Reborn?

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Ooooh, a repeat of the Meteor event? We got the lightning event like six times, so a 2nd meteor wouldn't be too bad right? :p

Seriously though, I don't get why you all are saying that alexander doesn't tie in with the main story. I watched all the cutscenes and agree that it hasn't tied into it "yet". Without giving any spoilers I can't really elaborate but alex does tie in with Ildyshire's story of course and there would be plenty of room for dragons and alexander to clash. Hence, maybe something like good old japanese movies: Godzilla versus Mecha-Godzilla! :P I mean, there are giant dragons right? Alexander is a giant robot.

I say give the story a bit longer to advance. I'm sure Ishgard won't be happy with a giant robot on their doorstep practically. And of course there is that one foe from that one dungeon that happens to be "loose". (sorry being vague so no spoiler if can)

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Originally Posted by Cherie

Ooooh, a repeat of the Meteor event? We got the lightning event like six times, so a 2nd meteor wouldn't be too bad right? :p

Seriously though, I don't get why you all are saying that alexander doesn't tie in with the main story. I watched all the cutscenes and agree that it hasn't tied into it "yet".

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It will be seperate from the MSQ, just like coil and Crystal tower series were.