Boycotting Warrior 4.0 (Let's do it!)

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

I think the doomsaying is silly and WAR will be at least as good in SB as it is now. Why bother with bloodbath when you have Rampart and a healer? 6 fell cleaves is gonna do a lot of damage for a tank and generate some good threat too. I don't see any issue with SB warrior.

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One butcher's block combo generates nearly as much aggro as 5 fell cleaves, so it's not that simple. Also if you wait to build up enough gauge for the 6 fell cleave rotation you'll have to start with eye-path-path-eye combo before using berserk, and that's like 25-30s into the fight before using your fell cleaves.

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Originally Posted by konpachizaraki

2.upheaval may have good potency which is 300, but it also uses beast gauge and also its damage get lower along with your HP, using it will delay you using fell cleave and inner beast which both have stronger potency

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Upheaval is better than fell cleave in terms of potency/gauge, and it's off gcd so it's better. The only time you shouldn't use upheaval is when you'll lose a fell cleave for a heavy swing or maim during a buff window (500 > 150/190 potency loss is bigger than 300 from upheaval), otherwise upheaval takes priority over fell cleave. Inner beast is a defensive utility so obviously it takes priority over the other two, assuming you need it.

Onslaught isn't good but there might be cases where you can spare 20 gauge when upheaval is on cooldown, so that's still a "free" 100 potency. For example between berserks your goal would be to build at least 120 gauge so you can use one upheaval out of berserk and still have 100 gauge to start the next berserk. If you can build 140 gauge instead, then that 20 extra gauge can be spent on onslaught without delaying your berserk. I did some experiment on a spreadsheet, and it seems like I can use onslaught once between my 2nd and 3rd berserk without losing any upheaval or fell cleave (since using a fell cleave after 2nd berserk before 3rd berserk would delay your 3rd berserk by 3 gcd).

While losing the theme of a lifegain tank is pretty shitty, I can live with all the changes except the stance swap penalty. Destroying the fluidity of the warrior in this way is just unacceptable, and whoever thought this was good idea is just incompetent. I'm actually thinking of maining red mage now because of that alone.

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Originally Posted by Rhyn

While losing the theme of a lifegain tank is pretty shitty, I can live with all the changes except the stance swap penalty. Destroying the fluidity of the warrior in this way is just unacceptable, and whoever thought this was good idea is just incompetent. I'm actually thinking of maining red mage now because of that alone.

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It's a japanese game...in Japan..there is no such thing as stance dance..., you main tank? tank stance, you off tank? dps stance, for all the fight...

at this rate we'll see nothing but PLD, RDM, SAM, AST running around, which at this point i'm sure that's what they were going for when they thought of all this lol.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

I think the doomsaying is silly and WAR will be at least as good in SB as it is now. Why bother with bloodbath when you have Rampart and a healer? 6 fell cleaves is gonna do a lot of damage for a tank and generate some good threat too. I don't see any issue with SB warrior.

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Why bother with Bloodbath? Two use cases:

1. Dungeons or large add phases (e.g. A2S, A12S, SephEX on release)
Right now, while running dungeons, you can get a ton of self-healing during big pulls with Bloodbath, Berserk, Decimate, and Overpower spam. This allows your healer to use Holy or Gravity more often, while giving your SCH ample opportunity to set up DoTs to Bane everything (RIP Bane 4.0) because Bloodbath's healing replaces a few GCDs they might otherwise spend casting Cure II/Benefic II/Adlo.

Similarly, although these are less common, there are at least a few endgame fights with a large number of adds at once, such as the eight lanners in A12S, the Binahs in Sephirot Extreme when it first came out (depending on kill order, you could end up with 6 Binahs alive at once as "OT"), and good chunk of A2S. In these examples, because you're tanking a large number of enemies, Bloodbath's self-heal is non-trivial.

2. Soloing undersized content, such as Coil or ARR Extreme primals
Want to test your mettle as a WAR? Would you like to revisit old content in a new and interesting way while testing your limits? Try going back in to ARR primals or Coils undersized by yourself as WAR and see if you can kill them.

Spoilers: When trying to solo old fights undersized as WAR, you live and die by your Bloodbath use.

Even disregarding the new stance dance penalty, which will make this a lot more painful, losing Bloodbath is rather crippling.

Sure, we'll be able to overgear these fights even more starting Friday, but then it'll also be hurting our chances at soloing HW trials and raids.

Also, while WAR is getting nerfed in solo content with the removal of Bloodbath, PLD is getting buffed. Half MP costs, no more cast interruptions, and Royal Authority comboing off Riot Blade is both a potency increase while also making Clemency and Holy Spirit Available more often!

I'm glad that PLD is finally getting some love, but what gives?

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Originally Posted by mcspamm

Right now, while running dungeons, you can get a ton of self-healing during big pulls with Bloodbath, Berserk, Decimate, and Overpower spam.

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Considering that, with the proper setup, you can now spam up to 6 Decimates on very large pulls, you'll need less healing in the end anyway :p

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Considering that, with the proper setup, you can now spam up to 6 Decimates on very large pulls, you'll need less healing in the end anyway :p

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I haven't put much thought into that but 6 decimates (or 5 decimates + 3 overpowers) wouldn't be practical considering you need to start the pull in defiance, hence halving your gauge when you go into deliverance. If you need to build up 50 gauge after getting it halved, then you can only start using decimates around 8 gcds into the pull (2x overpowers in defiance, 6 gcds for one eye combo and one path combo), the mobs would be dead by the time you're ready lol.

And no, I don't think you can stay in deliverance all the time unless you get bad dps. I've tried some dungeon runs with a good smn and a good drk, the drk won't hold aggro if he doesn't pop grit at the start of the pulls.

Interesting conversations after being gone a while.. guess I need to look for a more consolidated list of changes. I was never a fan of the dps tank meta, personally. I switched to DRG for HW after being War main for ARR because, if I was going to gear for strength, I figured I might as well do it on an actual strength class. As a result I fell behind on optimizing war for damage (rotation-wise), even though I eventually fell in to the meta and rocked full str until they nerfed it. - I just refused to raid on war unless it was with a group of friends lol

To a certain extent I think the changes in strength tanking meta really divided the community, it looks like some of these changes are clearly meant to help roll that back and define a proper formula for tanking in this game specifically. I think perhaps they were trying to offer too much to players, which is really great on one hand because of the freedom of choice, but also leaves a murky area of how the role is supposed to be played exactly.

Like Reynhart, I do enjoy the actual role of tanking, not just on war but also pld (I never really got that good at drk for some reason). It's not about the damage output, it's about being the leader of a party and directing them towards victory, so to speak. And I'm not denying the value of increased tank dps, certainly there is merit to the argument. I'm just saying it was never really the play style I enjoyed.

Anyways, just my 2 pennies. I was half leaning towards switching back to War for this expansion, guess we'll just have to see how it all plays out.

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Originally Posted by aleph_null

And no, I don't think you can stay in deliverance all the time unless you get bad dps. I've tried some dungeon runs with a good smn and a good drk, the drk won't hold aggro if he doesn't pop grit at the start of the pulls.

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You didn't have AoE Provoke back then ;)

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

It's not about the damage output, it's about being the leader of a party and directing them towards victory, so to speak.

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Get ready for dozens of "Tanks don't lead the party" responses :p

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Get ready for dozens of "Tanks don't lead the party" responses :p

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That's OK. I've been in enough groups that have wiped after a tank died to know the truth ;)

But either way, it's just my opinion about tanking. Others are free to have their own, and they surely do lol