Just got wheeling thrust.... Can someone explain the point of it to me?

It seems to me they pretty easily could have made the whole "4th combo" skills a single attack and the blood of the dragon buffs modify which side gets the bonus potency.

I can understand the complaining pretty easily
Like sure ninja gets 2 enmity modifiers that are usually not needed but they are also not forced on you and they are very useful when needed
Even if it's minor you feel like you gained something

or the bard/machinist stances, Sure they are kind of useless when you first get them but they also aren't forced on you and overall do end up giving you a gain for the inconvenience

with dragoon when I hit 58 it was just like... here's more stuff you have to keep watch of and do, you can't turn it off, and you gain absolutely nothing for the extra effort.
It's like a job transferring you to a new location that increases your commute by an hour with no pay raise. It just feels bad
Even a rarely needed situational skill like a 1 Ilm punch type effect that has to combo after feint, useless most of the time but great when it's needed. You'd at least feel like you gained something more than -1 button

I loved acquiring this skill, it actually made the job interesting and made it very easy to distinguish the good from the bad dragoons.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

For the quadrillionth time, nobody is complaining about RNG of FaC and WT. We're complaining that at 54 it's 100% and at 56 it's now 50% but with no added damage boost. A new ability nerfs a previous ability with no other plus. It's not that the RNG is hard or difficult, it's that we go from having NO RNG, to having a RNG--but there isn't a boost in damage or ANYTHING. If WT came simultaneously with a trait for DRG at 56 that gave Action Damage+10% or something, then at least we could say leveling up to 56 makes DRG stronger, but leveling up to 56 makes DRG weaker.

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Simple solution here is to nerf the skill at 54 to 50% and only let you get 100% at 56. That way you can "feel" good about leveling.

Seriously though if this is the bulk of the argument or the point then it's very silly. And for the record leveling to 56 doesn't make the dragoon "weaker" at all. Weaker means a general reduction vs previously, there is NOT a damage reduction at any level. If anything the level itself gives you a main stat increase along with the ability to wear gear with higher stat limits. This is an increase anyway you put it.

I'm actually looking forward to leveling DRG come 3.1 (bonus exp!). 2.0 DRG was kinda bland to me, but 3.0 DRG actually looks pretty fun, my melee partner(DRG) has been trying to get to level it for months. Maintaining BoTD and maximizing Gierskogul use seems interesting. While F&C and WT mixes up the already straightforward DRG rotation.

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Originally Posted by Nihility

Even if it's minor you feel like you gained something

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And this, I felt like I gained absolutely nothing upon obtaining Smoke Screen as my FIRST new HW ability. :mad:

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

100% a flat penalty. At 56 you have a 100% proc, unless you weren't paying attention. It was predictable and easy to plan for. At 58 now it's 50/50. It isn't hard, but there is now a larger margin for error meaning there a few fractions of a second to screw up. This isn't clever game design, it doesn't make DRG hard or more interesting to play, it makes DRG a chore. DRG may be the best DPS right now, but there is NO official statement from SE saying DRG was intended to be the best DPS. That's only what player-base came to after thorough theorycrafting and parsing. What if in 3.1 NIN becomes the best melee DPS? Would that then satisfy you? No other job has a guaranteed proc at one level, then a random branching proc system later. It would be fine if the random proc system meant better damage, but in reality it slows damage because there's actually more room for error. It makes no sense. I don't know why you guys are trying to justify it.

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This will sound harsh, because that is exactly how I mean it to be.

What you're arguing against is *exactly* the reason the skill exists. It's the same thing as any of the following skills:

Bard
Warden's Paean

Ninja
Shadewalker
Smoke Screen

Paladin
Clemency

Are you going to whine about how all these jobs got shafted, too, by getting a skill that is practically worthless? At least our skill is actually used regularly. It adds fun to the class, makes it dynamic and way more enjoyable to play than it was back in 2.x. I would say this is subjective, but it really isn't. Dragoon was boring and rote. I've said this in this thread before. Now, it's entertaining. Variable. Makes you think, weigh options, and play way faster than you did back before Blood of the Dragon was a thing. Complaining about this because it "slows you down" or whatever you wanna argue is simply saying "I can't deal with this change, because I'm not fast enough to react."

The only response I can give to you is shape up or ship out. Learn to play with it. It slows *literally* nothing down. You have enough time to react, move, hit Jump (the biggest animation lock skill we have) and get off your positional with 0 delay. Please give me an example of a time where this slows you down so I can more definitively tell you that you should practice more.


I apologize for being rude, but it is really frustrating that I've had to outline this a million times in this same thread and still have people parroting the same nonsense again and again.

And, just to prove my point before someone calls foul!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4US9XMgNgC8

Watch my opener in this run. I hit CT [rear] > Leg+PS > FaC [flank] > Jump > Phleb while stacking rear before hitting Jump - and I have 0 downtime on the GCD.

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

you would be fine with it if you got both abilities at 56 instead of one at 56, one at 58?

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Obviously not everyone shares the same view, but I think this is what most people are (should be) annoyed at. It's just that it's a wasted skill slot for 58 that doesn't add anything but complexity. This is something that I think is typically dealt with through traits. Here, I can explain exactly why this is a bit inappropriate.


Think about Bloodletter as an example. It's a skill that initially has no depth or complexity, but gains it through a trait. Once it gains the ability to proc, it means you get more damage for actually keeping a close eye on it. Better yet, it's a trait. This is how things should be. You get a skill, and it increases the difficulty, or ceiling at which the job can be played at. At the same time, it also feels (and is) rewarding when used correctly. I don't think I can say the same about Wheeling Thrust. Again, the 4th hit skills do the same thing, and there's not much validation for separating them into separate entities when it's the same system, essentially.

I welcome the injection of variety in DRG. I feel we desperately needed it, and it's unlikely they'd actually go as far as creating a new skill in it's stead. It's worth noting though, that the dissenting views on the skill are more than validated.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

Obviously not everyone shares the same view, but I think this is what most people are (should be) annoyed at. It's just that it's a wasted skill slot for 58 that doesn't add anything but complexity. This is something that I think is typically dealt with through traits. Here, I can explain exactly why this is a bit inappropriate.

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It's not exclusive to DRG getting this treatment though, nor can you necessarily say that WT (or really any skill) is added only for the sake of complexity because you sorta have to obtain them to progress through the job quests to get your next skills. For example, WM/GB by itself raw is actually a dps loss for their respective jobs until they get the new abilities, and it's only a dps gain because those new abilities are locked behind WM/GB. If we were to take the current design of GB/WM and make it not require those stances, then the design of those abilities become questionable at best in regards to how it's supposed to be utilized.

Whether or not it does a good job at adding said complexity is a different argument all together.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

Think about Bloodletter as an example.

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Bloodletter when gained is an extra damage skill that's oGCD. I mean it's not really a good comparison if people are trying to make the argument that "WT does absolutely nothing but make the job harder", but that's also applied to abilities like WM (which not only makes the job "harder", but lowers their dps until they get more abilities) or smokescreen/clemency/paeon (which only serves to fill a very specific niche that has almost no use in a practical environment, and more often than not becomes detrimental to the job using it because of the cast times, nor add any layers of complexity/difficulty to said job)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It's not exclusive to DRG getting this treatment though, nor can you necessarily say that WT (or really any skill) is added only for the sake of complexity because you sorta have to obtain them to progress through the job quests to get your next skills.

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It's a great comparison. It's not whether it's an OGCD, or a normal GCD we're comparing. I'm comparing the use of a skill slot for one class, to another. A skill slot that gives you an OGCD, provided it's not horrendously animation locked, will always be a benefit, so I'm not counting that in the comparison. What I am counting, is the fact that we have a system for adding quirks and peculiarities to existing skills without wasting skill slots. It's the trait system. For any skill that has additional functions, or any additional systems, it's almost purely through traits, or it's built into the skill itself at the level it's presented to you.

It's not that Wheeling Thrust adds nothing but complexity that makes it particularly bad, either.

It's multiple variables that come together to make the skill seem more like a wasted slot than a genuinely great use of a 58 skill. Not many people question a skill like Gauss Barrel, or Wanderers. Why? Because they understand it's a piece of a puzzle. It's something they can't fully utilize until everything's said and done. That being said, once they are 'done' they get more benefit from having it. We don't get any more benefit than F&C already gives us. Again, it's not even really about that for me, it's about the fact that they could have either made it a trait, lumped them together, or something, and given us a 58 skill that actually had more use than what Wheeling has.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

It's multiple variables that come together to make the skill seem more like a wasted slot than a genuinely great use of a 58 skill. Not many people question a skill like Gauss Barrel, or Wanderers. Why? Because they understand it's a piece of a puzzle. It's something they can't fully utilize until everything's said and done. That being said, once they are 'done' they get more benefit from having it. .

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Except, that's still the same as WM/GB. WT is still a "piece of the puzzle" to make the class feel complete at level 60, otherwise you're just going to go back to the flank for every 4th hit. You don''t fully utilize something like BotD, WT or FnC until you get GS from level 60 either, until then it's adding everything one at a time before it feels complete. There's no benefit from using WM/GB when you get it at 52, but only until you get the other abilties does it feel like it's acutally doing something while at the same time, it doesn't detriment your character (which WT does not do, but WM/GB does since it actually lowers your dps).

You also go on about "wasted skill slots" when again, DRG is not the only example of this, if you can even consider something like WT to be a "wasted skill slot" compared to the likes of paeon, clemency or smokescreen. Because it still adds something to the job that actively gets utilized. When you say "great use of a 58 skill", would you consider those 3 a great addition to the jobs? Is the "wasted skill slot" even a big deal considering DRG's current placings (which can be said for other jobs who also have abilties that fill a useless niche)

I don't mean to sound like an arse, but it's really hard to sympathize for a job that's going on about how they have a "wasted" skill slot when other jobs has the same thing, except theirs don't even have a persisting, ongoing purpose and that DRG as of now is arguably one of the best dps jobs to bring.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

When you say "great use of a 58 skill", would you consider those 3 a great addition to the jobs?

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So I think you're misunderstanding. Again, it's as simple as the fact that we have traits for additional systems or layers of depth into a single skill. There's no need to use a skill slot for said skills, when extra functions have been, and could have been built in. Let me show you how many skills don't require the use of an actual ability, or skill slot, that all have systems either built in (in one level/ability) as opposed to multiple slots or abilities.

Defiance (Wrath is a built in ability, you don't need to unlock an additional ability to stack it)
Deliverance (Abandon is built in, as well as the ability to transfer Wrath->Abandon and vice versa)
Greased Lightning (Traited- you don't separately unlock extra stacks through quests/actual skill slots)
Opo-Opo/Couerl/Raptor Form (The ability to transition between these stances, and the stances themselves, are built in to skills, there's no need for a separate ability that allows that)
Suiton (Hide effect is automatically built in, no separate ability that needs unlocked to allow you to do so with it)

The list goes on, but you get the idea. None of the above abilities rely on separate skill quests or slots to actually achieve more complexity or depth. It's all done either passively, or through traiting. And that's how it honestly, should stay. It's cohesive and makes the most sense.

And as a matter of fact, I actually consistently tell my raiding members that I feel there need to be changes to clemency because of it's lackluster benefits. And yes, the enmity skills on NIN ARE wasted slots, and I think many NIN would agree it adds very little to the job. You're debating things that have nothing to do with the conversation that I'm having. I'm not talking about, or debating the fact that other jobs don't have weird problems. I never alluded to it, actually. I also never said that other jobs don't have wasted skill slots. I'm specifically only talking about Wheeling Thrust, and how realistically, there's not much reason (other than maybe laziness) for them to not have put more thought into a better way to implement it. And NIN's abilities, and other jobs new abilities. There's flaws everywhere, but WT is what I'm speaking on.