What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Lauront

snip

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It wasn't necessarily what I hoped to happen, per se, but what would have made more sense if taking the direction the writers chose. What I hoped for was a much more critical review of Hydaelyn and the removal of her crystal pedestal, more of Zodiark similarly painted in a less black and white view, more on the original Final Days itself, how they dealt with the mounting crisis and the original summoning of Zodiark, and the possibility that some day, at some point, even if far into the future, that the Ancients might be given a second chance, just as... pretty much every single other previously doomed collective in this game has been given.

As you can imagine, EW was a very satisfying experience for me.

Yes, I'd heartily second all those points. I'm still somewhat peeved that they chose to depict the Sundering visually in the crossover with that Nier game, but at least they did it somewhere.

I'm going to begin (though others may have a head start) semi-facetiously referring to this as our EW group therapy thread. :p

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Yes, I'd heartily second all those points. I'm still somewhat peeved that they chose to depict the Sundering visually in the crossover with that Nier game, but at least they did it somewhere.

I'm going to begin (though others may have a head start) semi-facetiously referring to this as our EW group therapy thread. :p

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I beg your pardon?

They chose to depict the Sundering in the Nier crossover and not the expac touted as the finale to a 10 year saga?

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Originally Posted by Lucida3b

I just legit find the concept anti-thetical to what characters preach if you think about it. It inherently implies you should stop making things better at some point which feels so antithetical to the whole 'for those who walk after' spiel constantly uttered in the game.

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Hydaelyn embodies everything the Scions have consistently fought against, so their disregard of the fact that she's actually worse than an Ascian made them appear as self-serving hypocrites. "It's okay as long as it benefits us." Having said that, I can't even argue it's character inconsistent as all of the Scions have been on a spectrum of zealotry when it comes to her with Minfilia being the worst. Lest we forget they hand waved Hydaelyn pressuring Minfilia to kill herself and using her as a puppet as somehow "free will".

Krile allows herself to be possessed despite questioning Hydaelyn's intentions at the end of ShB, apparently because she was just too charming to resist. Y'shtola credits Hydaelyn with having forestalled the Final Days after she knows better from the moon. Thancred, the person who should have the most ire towards Hydaelyn, never expresses discontent with her and places his faith fully in her simply due to Minfilia. I'll say again, Hydaelyn tempering makes EW make more sense. The WoL, in particular, has no reason whatsoever to trust her. This is the woman who ended their original life and groomed them to be her champion based on a history of deceit. This whole bit of "she's on your side this time" doesn't work for me. She's shown to have no love or loyalty to anyone but her ideology and if sundering the Scions would've furthered her goal she 100% would have done it and they would not have been okay with it.

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

In any case, I've unsubbed due to the story and its direction

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I wonder how many people have unsubbed due to the story. I know of several in this thread and I've one foot out the door myself.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I didn't necessarily hate Emet and Hythlodaeus in Elpis, but I wonder what we might have gotten without the fanservice lens, especially with Hyth.

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What was wrong with Hyth? I didn't hate everything involving Emet, but it became obvious once Venat was introduced in Elpis that his character became manipulated. I'd initially glossed over it, but he hails her as having a "wealth of wisdom and experience" that is "unmatched" with "extraordinary" achievements in creation magicks, going on to to say her "singular brilliance" sets her apart and she's a "force of nature". So, essentially she's the smartest, most talented and accomplished Ancient who ever lived? Really? Why didn't she just single-handedly stop the Final Days herself? :eyeroll:

Much like the Scions with Hydaelyn, Emet's intellect seems to be drained from him whenever it concerns Venat or the sundering. We get brief moments where it seems clear he doesn't like her despite his praise in both Elpis and Ultima Thule, but I found it inconsistent. UT especially after Ishikawa doubled down on his 12k years of "hatred and heartbreak" in NieR. It simply wasn't believable and the fact that I see his UT dialog quoted incessantly (often by people who hate his character) to "prove" Venat was right further demonstrates that point. Yoshi-P's already admitted to using Emet because he's a fan favorite to push messages, so I suspect this is more of the same. Made worse by the fact that his takes on Emet's character and why he's popular are... bad. He has no business writing for Emet at all.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

They chose to depict the Sundering in the Nier crossover and not the expac touted as the finale to a 10 year saga?

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Accurately depicting the brutality of the sundering would've caused people to question the righteousness and benevolence of "crystal mommy" and they couldn't have that.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Y'shtola credits Hydaelyn with having forestalled the Final Days after she knows better from the moon.

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This is straight up false. Here is what Y'shtola says:

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Originally Posted by Y'shtola from "Her Children, One and All"

By sundering the world into fourteen shards, the aether of all living beings too was divided. This reduction would in theory allow us to more easily interact with dynamis. Having seen mankind brought to the very precipice of extinction, you wished for us to develop a means to overcome despair. You believed we had the potential, and sundered all creation to see it fulfilled. To deliver us to that swirling maelstrom of dynamis in which our foe hides, and grant us the power to defeat her once and for all. Is this not true?

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The story seemed good to me except for the destruction of the Garlean city. But eh, there are indications that we’re rebuilding it so.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

This is straight up false. Here is what Y'shtola says:

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https://i.imgur.com/djs4X6l.jpg

Your move.

I'm curious as to how that line was translated in other languages because I'd like to think such a blatant contradiction wouldn't have slipped through the cracks multiple times.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

https://i.imgur.com/djs4X6l.jpg

Your move.

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That quote is from At World's End, which is before the visit to Elpis. Y'shtola had an innacruate understanding of the situation, and then after you visited Elpis she had a different understanding based on what you told her.

This isn't a contradiction, you're just being dishonest.

Y'shtola would have to have known that Zodiark was the one who stopped the Final Days after all the research she had done in Anamnesis Aynder, moreso then any of the other Scions.

I think mistranslation is the only logical explanation in this case.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

That quote is from At World's End, which is before the visit to Elpis. Y'shtola had an innacruate understanding of the situation, and then after you visited Elpis she had a different understanding based on what you told her.

This isn't a contradiction, you're just being dishonest.

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She literally spent time at anamnesis though, yknow, the place with all of their knowledge etc? No ones being dishonest, you’re just being oblivious to the obvious bias painted towards hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Y'shtola would have to have known that Zodiark was the one who stopped the Final Days after all the research she had done in Anamnesis Aynder, moreso then any of the other Scions.

I think mistranslation is the only logical explanation in this case.

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I just listened to the cutscene in Japanese, my Japanese isn't perfect but she seems to be saying that Hydaelyn was around to bind Zodiark when the Final Days were happening so she would know what to do.

(Or maybe she knows something because the Final Days remained forestalled even though she bound Zodiark, like I said. Not perfect.)

Edit: the point is that she doesn't seem to be crediting Hydaelyn with anything except binding Zodiark in the Japanese. It's a weird line in English that doesn't reflect her prior knowledge or later conclusions. So using it as represe ntative of her stance - next to the later one especially, strikes me as cherry-picking.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I just listened to the cutscene in Japanese, my Japanese isn't perfect but she seems to be saying that Hydaelyn was around to bind Zodiark when the Final Days were happening so she would know what to do.

(Or maybe she knows something because the Final Days remained forestalled even though she bound Zodiark, like I said. Not perfect.)

Edit: the point is that she doesn't seem to be crediting Hydaelyn with anything except binding Zodiark in the Japanese. It's a weird line in English that doesn't reflect her prior knowledge or later conclusions. So using it as represe ntative of her stance - next to the later one especially, strikes me as cherry-picking.

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We shouldn’t have to cross reference with other languages though. Localization needs to do their damn job. Either way though, you can’t expect and shouldn’t expect everyone to know 2-3 languages or be cross referencing them. In the end it’s source material.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

We shouldn’t have to cross reference with other languages though. Localization needs to do their damn job. Either way though, you can’t expect and shouldn’t expect everyone to know 2-3 languages or be cross referencing them. In the end it’s source material.

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That's something I'll actually agree with you on, I have a lot of problems with the English localization. It's not really an Endwalker specific issue, though.

Localization is hard work, though. So I can see how a minor incidental line like that could have gotten overlooked. And it can't really be easily changed now, since it's a voiced cutscene and all.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

We shouldn’t have to cross reference with other languages though. Localization needs to do their damn job. Either way though, you can’t expect and shouldn’t expect everyone to know 2-3 languages or be cross referencing them. In the end it’s source material.

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I have wondered if a lot of the issues with the story have been issues at the localisation stage and a lack of communication between the English localisation team the the writers. I think the story would still be weak but might have addressed some of the tone/theme issues that look to be driving a lot of the complaints with the story

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I wonder how many people have unsubbed due to the story. I know of several in this thread and I've one foot out the door myself.

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I'm giving it until 6.2, as it's around the time the short stories should be due to come out, plus it'll have the next stage of Pandaemonium. If that ends up just being more doubling down on "mommy loves you, she's GOOD, herois, HEROIS, ACCEPT HER LOVE, ok!?!?!", I am going to unsub as well, as I've no desire to be preached at in that manner, particularly if they begin/continue bending the writing in this direction. I really don't care for the inconsistent, hamfisted themes EW tried to push, as is. I was also not a fan of how Y'shtola was portrayed and G'raha following me around all the time in 6.1, and I really wanted to see a new (and better) cast enter the fray - given that even Yoshi has reservations about Y'shtola's portrayal in 6.1, we'll see if that sinks in for 6.2. They'll have had time to reflect on any 6.0 feedback as well by that point. So a lot riding on it potentially.

If nothing else, it's interesting that they're commenting on such things. I've noticed that they seem to very quick to weigh in on both major and minor aspects of the game these days if there's even a bit of backlash. Whether they take such feedback on board and strike a better balance moving forward remains to be seen. Personally my problems with FFXIV in its current form extend beyond the story itself. If not for being lucky enough to own a mansion, I'd likely take a lengthy break - but if I lose that, I'd have zero interest logging into the game even if began catering to me directly. :p

FFXVI, at least, appears to me more to my tastes and there's a handful of upcoming MMO's that have piqued my curiosity. They're all a fair bit away from going live, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

What was wrong with Hyth?

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I've always been very fond of Hyth, right from his first appearance in Amaurot (albeit as a shade.) We may not have had a tonne of information about him prior to EW, but from what we did learn I just found him really interesting, and I had hoped Emet, and to a degree other parts of SHB, had paved the way for more thoughtful, complex characterisations than before. He represented the first fleshed out, non-Ascian Ancient in the story and had a significant connection with Emet, while at the same time seemed to serve as a potentially fascinating foil; a whimsical, peaceable yet discerning character that kept his own counsel, yet was hinted as matching him and the Ascians in terms of power and intelligence. I looked forward to his own take of what had transpired during and after the Final Days, and what his dynamic with the other Ancients might add to the story.

I was incredibly disappointed to see him reduced down to what felt like little more than Emet's adoring, self-deprecating sidekick who had almost no purpose or perspective outside of Emet and Azem, and only seemed to be there to emphasise how great and wonderful they are. Suddenly, the Chief of the Bureau of the Architect - you know, the overseer of the institution that rules over all of creation magicks - became the weaker, lesser character happily dwarfed by his friends trope that permeates Japanese media, whose sole redeeming ability was his innate soul sight. Paired with Emet's intense tsundere-ification, there was just a distinct lack of depth that I had been hoping for since the end of SHB. That aside with the WoL in particular trying to hammer home what a good guy Emet was felt so shallow and forced, and followed EW's unfortunate trend of telling, not showing that SHB for the most part seemed to avoid so well.

Unfortunately Hythlodaeus was given the Regula van Hydrus treatment. I remember being excited by Regula's existence because his sacrifice ended with a line of dialogue that implied that, at some point, we'd have a conversation with Emperor Varis and be able to mention the heroic sacrifice of his best friend as a potential method of easing tensions and working towards peace. Instead the game not only forgets about Regula's existence during the peace talks with the Emperor but it then decides to take the blandest and most predictable route to forging peace with Garlemald - by destroying it entirely offscreen.

I suppose the game itself doesn't care about more than a handful of characters that are deemed 'acceptable' to shove into our faces at every point. I'm reminded of the fall from grace of World of Warcraft, where it made complete sense to involve certain characters in the story or reference them in passing but...that simply didn't happen.

Kind of like how we're constantly getting throwback references to Haurchefant but Ysayle is rarely mentioned despite having much more screen time.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

If not for being lucky enough to own a mansion, I'd likely take a lengthy break - but if I lose that, I'd have zero interest logging into the game even if began catering to me directly. :p

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Heh, comments like this make me wonder if the devs find housing working as intended encouraging or disheartening.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

This isn't a contradiction, you're just being dishonest.

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The dishonesty here is EN localization if this line is not consistent in other languages. I can't be expected to be multilingual because the EN translators suck at their job.

Having compared some scenes with someone who plays in FR, it seems EN missed out on a lot of context. Nothing narrative breaking, but certainly within the realm of "that seemed important". Are we now coming across dialog that's not even remotely similar between languages? Because that is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I was incredibly disappointed to see him reduced down to what felt like little more than Emet's adoring, self-deprecating sidekick who had almost no purpose or perspective outside of Emet and Azem, and only seemed to be there to emphasise how great and wonderful they are. Suddenly, the Chief of the Bureau of the Architect - you know, the overseer of the institution that rules over all of creation magicks - became the weaker, lesser character happily dwarfed by his friends trope that permeates Japanese media, whose sole redeeming ability was his innate soul sight. Paired with Emet's intense tsundere-ification, there was just a distinct lack of depth that I had been hoping for since the end of SHB. That aside with the WoL in particular trying to hammer home what a good guy Emet was felt so shallow and forced, and followed EW's unfortunate trend of telling, not showing that SHB for the most part seemed to avoid so well.

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I can't disagree with that assessment, although, I still adored Hythlodaeus (and have since ShB). I love the 'trio' and how all 3 are presented as having deeply cared for one another to the extent that they had planned to return to the star together. I thought that was beautiful.

I would say hopefully Hythlodaeus gets a chance to shine later, but Yoshi-P seems to want to wash his hands of everything Ancient. I have seen several fan made comics where he is depicted as working closely with the Convocation and otherwise a 'big deal' in his position as Chief of the Bureau of the Architect.

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Originally Posted by Misplaced_Marbles

Heh, comments like this make me wonder if the devs find housing working as intended encouraging or disheartening.

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I doubt that they're too torn up over it. With that said, although I haven't removed my subscription I did used to run a full set of extra retainers which I've since scaled back to the default amount. I also used to buy a lot of the merchandise being sold which I no longer bother ordering. :p

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...2/IMG_6748.png

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...2/IMG_6748.png

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*watches 6.5 finale cutscene*
*watch the NPCs walk into the void*
NPC1: W-Why would they do that?
NPC2: Because they are the strong, they are the ones to... forge ahead!
*Instrumental of "Forge Ahead" plays*
*SE releases single "Forge Ahead" for the 7.0 expansion*

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I have seen several fan made comics where he is depicted as working closely with the Convocation and otherwise a 'big deal' in his position as Chief of the Bureau of the Architect.

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Off topic, but have to ask. Could you point me to these comics, please?

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

Off topic, but have to ask. Could you point me to these comics, please?

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Oh, I just randomly come across them. I know that's not helpful. :P Here are two I saw recently:

https://mobile.twitter.com/declinant...329091/photo/1
https://twitter.com/mintsui/status/1...063363/photo/1

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...2/IMG_6748.png

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Forge ahead... but not too hard because we can't let life get too good. Forge ahead but when you've forged and you're ahead make sure not to do much.

My expectations going from Shadowbringers to EW were pretty similar to what people posted a couple pages back. I honestly thought the Ancients were going to be portrayed as hard workers, working too hard (like Lahabrea) and dedicating themselves entirely to the star. Fandaniel would have still been involved in the "sound" provoking something or doing something he shouldn't have for the sake of tearing down society. Venat's concern was for the new life as she stated in Shadowbringers instead of it just being completely dropped. A statement that hey, let this new life take over, it's break time for us. The sundering would have been an accident.

Instead we get a Venat forcing her ideologies. But that by itself wasn't a good enough reason for the sundering to be purposeful. Yes it had to be purposeful because Venat had to be shown as great and amazing. Instead they came up with some crazy energy source that is somehow needed. Lets dump all her negative characteristics onto this new Hermes character and make sure everyone knows it's his fault everything is wrong. On top of that lets make sure the players know why the sundering had to happen and have a catgirl say it's because of dynamis.

Speaking of dynamis, Meteion was made to be able to interact with dynamis to travel to other stars and be able to communicate through her emotions. The whole being affected by emotions in turn and causing an overload was just overlooked. It is stated that dynamis is much weaker than aether....so where in the game does it say that dynamis is the only thing that can counteract dynamis? Where is it explicitly stated that the ancients can't use dynamis? All I remember is a line stating it's harder to use, and there is no practical use. Hermes states it's only known to a select few scholars, which in a world full of nothing but scholars, I feel you need to suspend your disbelief to make possible.

I feel all the Venat praise was not Ishikawa at all. There was an interview that Yoshida stated she was overworked and had to take over. Ishikawa steps down as lead writer, Yoshida cries over Hydaelyn scene. Ishikawa then goes to write the sundering in another game entirely. Yeah I can hazard a guess who was changing things to make Venat and Hydaelyn look like the perfect goddess.

I can't say I'm ever going to quit, I have an important house and I want to keep it. It was my old fc house and it's decorated by a friend. She plans on tweaking some things after decorating her new house, but feel free to visit

Lunaxia stated how I feel about Hythlodaeus. Both his and Hades's characterizations were fine and were the same in the side stories. It's just the dialogue that was mostly garbage.During the flying scene I honestly just wanted Hythlodaeus to stop talking. Show, don't tell and we are already being shown. He comes off as depressing. I really just wanted to give him a pep talk, but then I remembered that it doesn't matter, he just going to die. Out of all the character that they can work with the most I feel he's one of them. He has a lot of potential that will never see the light of day. Elpis was really one of the worst zones for me and I hate that it looks like a mini-golf course from the air now.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

Forge ahead... but not too hard because we can't let life get too good. Forge ahead but when you've forged and you're ahead make sure not to do much.

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Yeah, don't want to get to a point where we just want to die from boredom.

Honestly, yes, the English localisation often ends up unnecessarily vague. As pointed out,

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I just listened to the cutscene in Japanese, my Japanese isn't perfect but she seems to be saying that Hydaelyn was around to bind Zodiark when the Final Days were happening so she would know what to do.

(Or maybe she knows something because the Final Days remained forestalled even though she bound Zodiark, like I said. Not perfect.)

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this is also what is said in French, in which Y'shtola specifies that she is referring to Venat being around when Zodiark was summoned to stop the Final Days (implying she would have more context than them) and "forestalling the (implicitly now-current) Final Days" by keeping him alive. I can't speak any German but I am willing to bet their version is also much closer to the Japanese, according to hearsay. It's mostly the English localisation going off.

There are... a lot of other examples like this, though not necessarily pro-Hydaelyn / anti-Zodiark. Some that come to mind due to my area of interest and shameless bias, though: the "patronising" Amaurotine that chides you on your extravagant outfit in Amaurot is "charitable" in French, the "bitter" Ancient in Venat's artistic license version of the Sundering is "bewildered" (presumably by having just witnessed a famous and respected person draw her weapon toward them – understandable, have a nice Final Day), Igeyorhm in Elidibus's second Echo flashback in 5.3 does not just say "some thought you would be unfit for the position" but actually specifies "some thought you would be too kind and indulgent", which is minor but I would argue the English ver diminishes characterisation; his Ancient self being specifically referred to as a young adult in every version but English that for some reason still plays coy with weasel words like "youth" and "boy", leading some unperceptive people to still think he was a child... and how could I forget, his not-so-final line of pure self-abnegation in which he says matter-of-factly that he had to be the last of his kind to go as he would have hated himself for leaving his surviving friends to fend alone... which, yes, the now-famous English version of this line is certainly beautiful and tear jerking because of the callback to the Echo line and posting it on any social media in summer 2020 would have gotten you all the updoots, but I feel it doesn't carry exactly the same explicit meaning.

I'm also low-key mad English Endwalker doesn't have him refer to Hydaelyn as "my dear Hydaelyn" while saddling her with the role of the last of "the authentic human race", as "a last revenge from Zodiark" in his parting lines. Take note, English team, that's what you may refer to as a bitter Ancient.

All in all, these little things can sum up and amount to a different interpretation of characters. Some differences are expected due to the difficulty of translating, but when it only happens with the English localisation I am side-eyeing pretty hard.

I personally do wonder which details of the final days were planned out before EW was fully realized, like I do feel there is a emotion energy concept already there as emotions are noted with the second beast i think? but how much of it was fully planned out is my question

It's hard to say. I never expected the writers to have everything planned out though I at least hoped they had the good sense to look at WoW's mess of a story and strive to not repeat the same mistake of mindlessly pursuing 'rUlE oF CoOl' and 'fEeLs' at the cost of narrative cohesion.

What's interesting is that I recently learned that ESO employs the services of a skilled individual well versed in the vast lore of the Elder Scrolls in order to ensure that things line up as well as they can. I wonder if that's something that FFXIV could benefit from?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's hard to say. I never expected the writers to have everything planned out though I at least hoped they had the good sense to look at WoW's mess of a story and strive to not repeat the same mistake of mindlessly pursuing 'rUlE oF CoOl' and 'fEeLs' at the cost of narrative cohesion.

What's interesting is that I recently learned that ESO employs the services of a skilled individual well versed in the vast lore of the Elder Scrolls in order to ensure that things line up as well as they can. I wonder if that's something that FFXIV could benefit from?

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They are suppose to have that, I have a feeling they lost too many of the staff that had a strong handle on the extended lore to 16 leaving a team that only seems interested in having big set pieces but not interesting in how they fit with what they did before

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Originally Posted by Lucida3b

I personally do wonder which details of the final days were planned out before EW was fully realized, like I do feel there is a emotion energy concept already there as emotions are noted with the second beast i think? but how much of it was fully planned out is my question

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I'm going to guess that not much of it was. Meteion and Dynamis were so out of left field that there's no way they could've been thought of before EW started production. I'd be happy if anyone can point out to me that they were.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

I'm going to guess that not much of it was. Meteion and Dynamis were so out of left field that there's no way they could've been thought of before EW started production. I'd be happy if anyone can point out to me that they were.

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That's part of the issue with stories where the whole point is "What did this?" Everything hinges on us not knowing until the end which can mean that the ultimate answer can be unsatisfying.

As an aside, I saw this interesting thread earlier today:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...s-unacceptable

I figured I'd link it here for those who may not have seen it since it raises many of the same points brought up here.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

What's interesting is that I recently learned that ESO employs the services of a skilled individual well versed in the vast lore of the Elder Scrolls in order to ensure that things line up as well as they can. I wonder if that's something that FFXIV could benefit from?

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I thought that was Oda's job?

Sadly, I'm not convinced they care about the lore anymore. Yoshi-P seems wholly disinterested in it. Not only rushing an abrupt end to the history of the world, but looking visibly exasperated discussing it in the LL and the infamous (direct quote), "Wow, you guys are paying close attention to this game." :P

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I thought that was Oda's job?

Sadly, I'm not convinced they care about the lore anymore. Yoshi-P seems wholly disinterested in it. Not only rushing an abrupt end to the history of the world, but looking visibly exasperated discussing it in the LL and the infamous (direct quote), "Wow, you guys are paying close attention to this game." :P

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It is meant to be Oda's job, but considering he supposedly consulted with him and Ishikawa for answering some of the Q&A stuff, make of it what you will. Either there was a bit of Yoshi free-styling going on there, or it's a case of what you mention.

The Omega questline was rather interesting, not least of all...

for how Omega questions the actions and logic of Venat, Hermes, and Emet Selch, and rather satisfyingly allows you to decide which one in particular you thought was justified, that they were all justified in their own ways, or that none of them were justified.

It implies that while our character does like Venat/Hydaelyn to some extent, you don't necessarily agree with how they chose to handle things.

I also just appreciate that the story opted to raise those questions at all since it might encourage more people to think a bit more deeply about Endwalker instead of just taking everything at face value.

Gonna just kinda ignore the long conversation and give my plebeian take on some of the hot topics.

I didn't see Venat as a good or bad character in the end, she was an ancient driven by her own hubris in the same way Emet Selch was driven by his own in Shadowbringers. To me the ancients all had a mightier than thou attitude towards everything and they could do no wrong. I think it was exemplified with seeing Venat and Hermes in EW and how they acted towards their ideas. I also think the ancient's storyline is fraught with plotholes and questions, my biggest one is one that is kinda carried in here with how the sundering actually happened since we get the story of it in ShB but they kind of imply everything with EW with the very vague scene that I think was meant to be an allegory for everything with Venat.

My problems with the EW story come from how much felt like filler. All of Labyrinthos until the last 5 minutes of MSQ felt like filler to me due to none of it mattering until we unlock the aetherial sea dungeon and the space ship. The first half of Thavnair was about getting the macguffin and destroying a tower that turned out to not matter at all to the plot. The second half was actually good to me and made me really feel how real the final days could have been. Garlemald felt too rushed and that there could have been a lot more time invested in there, otherwise what we got I thought was good as well. The moon was fine through Zodiark and should have been used as setup for the final days but turned into a filler storyline with the mini buns that completely broke the tension that started with the death of Zodiark. I have less issues with Elpis as most of the people here do as I saw it for what it was intended, the complete setup for the big bad for the end of the story. I think my biggest complaint was immediately knowing she was the cause of the final days because of her voice on the moon which killed a lot of the build up the zone had. I liked that they showed more of the ancient's society and the hubris of the ancients and will probably go against the grain here and say I enjoyed seeing Emet's and Hythlo's interactions with each other. Ultima Thule was easily the worst zone. It could have been setup as an end to Thancred's story but immediately turned into the ultimate bait zone that felt unsatisfying and actually made me mad at the writers for how they handled it. When Y'shtola flat out told us how to save everyone you knew immediately that their "deaths" were just completely bait and meant nothing in the long run.

The biggest things I hated was how underutilized the Final Days were in the story. The amazing cutscene in Thavnair when everything goes to hell through the tension of Vanspati and the 2nd half of Thavnair made it feel like a real threat that we could do nothing about. I feel like they should have leaned into that harder and made the urgency of finding a solution feel that much more important instead of relegating it to a duty in Garlemald and the echo for the last bit in Sharlyan. Ultima Thule was a mess that could have been a good send-off for at least Thancred and made the threat from Meteion feel better instead of her taunting us about despair and temporarily removing the scions through our travel in the final zone.

Overall I am meh towards the story. It is still better than Stormblood's 4.0 MSQ, however I will put it below HW's and ShB's story. If you asked me back in December I would have put my opinion about the story higher, but the more I think about it, the more issues I find with it.

After Elpis, I can't say I really got the impression of them as being characterised by hubris (any more than the sundered), or that the story was trying to convey the notion that they thought they could do no wrong. Neither really shone through. While this may have characterised Venat, she is also described by Emet (relaying her mentee's views on her) as distant, and the fact that Yoshi has to compare her to an Emet-Selch changed by 12k years of a gruesome toil for this comparison to succeed is intriguing. Both her and Hermes are outliers, and everything we know about their society suggests the opposite of them thinking they could do no wrong - Hermes after all does what he does through violating their protocols. The ancients' mentality, much like that of the elder dragons, obviously will differ, because they're a near-immortal species with great natural powers, but EW failed to undo what SHB succeeded at: showing their more human aspects; in fact, it added to that if you ignore Yoshi's attempt to re-cast them as "scary", which sits rather bizarrely with what is shown in the self-same area's sidequests.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

The Omega questline was rather interesting, not least of all...

for how Omega questions the actions and logic of Venat, Hermes, and Emet Selch, and rather satisfyingly allows you to decide which one in particular you thought was justified, that they were all justified in their own ways, or that none of them were justified.

It implies that while our character does like Venat/Hydaelyn to some extent, you don't necessarily agree with how they chose to handle things.

I also just appreciate that the story opted to raise those questions at all since it might encourage more people to think a bit more deeply about Endwalker instead of just taking everything at face value.

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It's a pity that it's in side content, and there is always the possibility that they're using it to gauge reception of some EW characters (even if it's a slightly odd place for it), but it's a positive turn that it's at least framed with some options.

I'll have to check Gamerescape later to see if the various options come up to see the differences in tone/follow-up for each.