What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Xirean

So if EW was lackluster does that mean the next expansion will be good? As is right now it's kinda the pattern of good to bad to good. At least imo.

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I guess it depends on how you feel about ARR, SB and EW but the first two are generally considered the weaker of the EPs, with EW being absolute trash can tier for me. So I guess if we're looking at a pattern, the next EP should be great. I can't say I have much hope for the it though, considering how much the writers seem to have abandoned the idea of nuanced storytelling. Honestly, all the characters I loved the most are dead. Instead of expounding upon the wonderfully gray threads laid in ShB, they backtracked and shat all over the themes of that story.

While I don't really have any issues with the Scions as characters (except for Y'shtola) I honestly resent the fact that they all escaped the absolutely absurd series of events that made up the end of EW and are still alive and kicking while all of the people I cared about are dead. Just being around them really annoys me right now. What on earth could they present me with that would entice me to continue? They seem eager to abandon all of the plot points that made me invested in the story to begin with. Am I going to care about going to Meracydia/Corvos/New World, "proving myself" to whatever new people I meet there, solving their huge problems for them and ultimately becoming their savior? Doesn't sound appealing to me at all. Been there, done that more times than I can count.

And as much as I like Vrtra and feel sorry for him and his sister, again I feel pretty bitter that I am going to help him with his pain that he's been holding onto for 5k years when I was just told that it's objectively wrong to hold on to or change the past and that I should just always "forge ahead" and embrace change, good or bad, lest I end up so bored that I want to kill myself.

The preaching disgusts me. The lack of nuance disgusts me. The inconsistencies disgust me. A battle of "values" does not appeal to me since they have shown that it's more a case of they will tell me what my values are instead of my actually having a choice.

So, for me at least, they'd have to come up with something pretty extraordinary to get me to have the level of investment in this game that I had going into EW. My sub ends in a couple of days so I guess I'll just wait and see what the future holds.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I’ll just say when the confirmed most expensive animation this expansion was animating estinien’s foot….there’s something wrong. Couldn’t show the sundering. Couldn’t show the Hydaelyn vs Zodiark fight. My hateful bias towards this expansion aside, i just can’t fathom how you can have this big epic conclusion in the making and not have any cinematics whatsoever outside of trailers.

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What makes it even worse is that cutscene is dependent on the player choosing Estinien as the person who comes to meet them in their room. It's not a regular part of the story.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

I can't think of any nicer way to put this, they're appealing to softies, that's about it. The kind of player that reaches for the tissues during their msq reaction twitch stream whenever a slow piano track starts playing during a cutscene. They don't want their faves to die so a fake-out is good enough to get them screaming MOST COMPELLING STORY IN MMO HISTORY! And, naturally, they eat up any slice of life fluff cutscene or uncharacteristically cutesy behavior. Somehow they thought that this sort of consumer is now their largest demographic because they happen to be the loudest with their praise, when really most of the players just want a story that's, like, good. One that makes sense and is tonally consistent.

It also probably doesn't help that Ishikawa seems to personally enjoy it as well. She hyperfocuses on character interactions a lot. Good for side quests, good for fleshing out relationships between the main cast when necessary (and I felt it was very apt in SHB because we weren't a tightly knit group beforehand), but bad for when that's all been said and done and it's time to get to the conflict.

I realize this is condescending of me to say but I'm far too annoyed by it to care. All the prolific content creators who get clicks through their teary-eyed overreactions piss me off so hard these days, but that seems to be the kind of content SE wants to generate. Why else would they keep referencing Haurchefant to the point of every other dialogue option being ASBSAH and them designing an entire ultimate around an AO3 fix-it fic in which he survives?

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Couldn't agree more. I guess I'm not the target audience for streamers, and the few times I've tuned into 14 streams, I just ended up hitting X not too long into it. Too overly emotional and little of value in the content for me. I also agree that it is an error to assume that all their playerbase values this slice of life, touchy feely stuff - like others said, it's fine in moderation but now that it is seeping into the MSQ more and more, it's hard to avoid it. Of course you need proper gathering of feedback, that hits on fairly granular/specific feedback about the story, and then to analyse this feedback, and I seriously doubt they do this at the moment. Even so, it's good to see some critical feedback is making it their way. I can't see myself playing 10 more years of this game if 6.1 is an indication of what's to come.

Re: streamers

Zepla's reactions in her playthrough were based, including being pissed off at the end of Elpis. Unfortunately, like all streamers, she has an audience to pander to who pay her bills so of course she changed her tune afterwards and started parroting their feedback.

I've mentioned before that Rich Campbell was an Ascian fan until his viewers started threatening his sponsorships and since then he just mirrors his audience.

Streamers are the worst place to get feedback because they're performers who are for the most part trying to keep their viewers happy and engaged because that's how they make money. You're generally not going to get authentic reactions from them.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

What on earth could they present me with that would entice me to continue? They seem eager to abandon all of the plot points that made me invested in the story to begin with.

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This. I genuinely do not understand the thought process behind rushing the conclusion to a story people loved, mishandling it so badly in the process, and then expecting to keep people hooked. I get the impression Yoshi-P legitimately thinks all players are like the WoL was depicted in EW, who just love going new places for the sake of it and fighting ever more challenging foes. The thing is I can get that in any given MMO. What I can't get in most of them is an immersive story.

I'm left feeling the same way of what do I have to look forward to because EW put an end to everything I was invested in and in an unsatisfactory way. Even if I do see something that grabs my attention (I haven't yet) I feel I shouldn't bother getting attached to anyone who isn't a Scion. Even that's secondary to my concerns about what 'values' are going to be thrust upon my character in the future since nuance has been tossed aside. Seeing as how I didn't feel I was ethically on the same page as the writers in EW it certainly does not inspire confidence in their storytelling going forward.

Also, while I'm glad to see new faces in the thread, I'm also sad that we're increasingly losing people like PawPaw who have unsubscribed over this. Not that I blame them.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

Two of the biggest problems I have with the story:

1. Dynamis. Introduced last minute as this big plot device and will probably never be mentioned again.

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I can only hope we're that fortunate.

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2. The Endsinger. Fighting her didn't feel like some epic conclusion, she wasn't even worthy of her own boss theme. Phase one was a remix of all the other final bosses and phase 2 was a remix of The Maker's Ruin. She didn't even have a second form. Defeating her didn't feel as heroic as saving Eorzea from Ultima Weapon, stopping Thordan, or saving the First from Emet-Selch.

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I absolutely loathe it as a fight. She's meant to represent multiple stars' worth of despair. It does make something of a mockery of dynamis, IMO, but on top of it, the entire fight and its sequences - Scions included - make me cringe. I dread getting it in DF.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

This. I genuinely do not understand the thought process behind rushing the conclusion to a story people loved, mishandling it so badly in the process, and then expecting to keep people hooked. I get the impression Yoshi-P legitimately thinks all players are like the WoL was depicted in EW, who just love going new places for the sake of it and fighting ever more challenging foes. The thing is I can get that in any given MMO. What I can't get in most of them is an immersive story.

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It's annoying, frankly. There needs to be an allowance for the fact that there are many different character archetypes which people enjoy in an (MMO)RPG. Not just Yoshi's singular vision of it. If they didn't keep asking the players to reflect on their own thoughts, experiences and tastes, and also their characters', I could excuse it, but he almost acts as though we're all a single hivemind in what our own character ("WOL") is like.

I miss characters having interactions like Estinien and Ysayle so bad. For someone who claims to like darker stories Ishikawa sure hates writing the most basic disagreements between main cast members, and even in the rare instance she does there’s always one who’s obviously right. Unless Maehiro graces us with his writing again now that FFXVI is done I don’t expect we’ll ever get that again after people had the audacity to claim it was sexist of him to make Estinien and Ysayle bicker and then kill Ysayle off. Sexist! As if Haurchefant wasn’t offed just a couple levels prior! The reaction if they killed off Yshtola would be much the same only worse, but god I wish they would do it anyway. Only Maehiro has had the nerve to kill off 2 main characters in a single patch story, we need that back and SOON.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I get the impression Yoshi-P legitimately thinks all players are like the WoL was depicted in EW, who just love going new places for the sake of it and fighting ever more challenging foes.

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Honestly, we just went to the edge of the damn universe and fought the Macguffin of DESPAIR. What the actual f*** are they going to throw at us that's more threatening? The Rift? The scale just doesn't seem to match. And I somehow have zero interest in fighting any local warlords or getting involved in local politics right now :rolleyes:.

If I could actually decide what my character did at this moment, she would take a Leave of Absence and wander around alone getting drunk and into bar brawls and questioning all her life choices. She's in mourning.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

If I could actually decide what my character did at this moment, she would take a Leave of Absence and wander around alone getting drunk and into bar brawls and questioning all her life choices. She's in mourning.

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I can't handle any more Scion hypocrisy either. As Teraq mentioned, we're seemingly about to try and save Vrtra's sister. Nothing gets under my skin more than "rules for thee, but not for me", but that is thematically the protagonists now. Is it any wonder I can't stand them anymore after EW?

I'm amazed whenever anyone says EW had a happy ending. I struggle to think of how it could be worse if you're a fan of anyone but the plot armored protagonists. I would visit the unsundered Ancients in the aetherial sea if I could, not just Emet and Hythlodaeus. I want to listen and learn, not go on a Skalla redeux. Accepting the story as is, it should be a time for reflection.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Re: streamers

Zepla's reactions in her playthrough were based, including being pissed off at the end of Elpis. Unfortunately, like all streamers, she has an audience to pander to who pay her bills so of course she changed her tune afterwards and started parroting their feedback.

I've mentioned before that Rich Campbell was an Ascian fan until his viewers started threatening his sponsorships and since then he just mirrors his audience.

Streamers are the worst place to get feedback because they're performers who are for the most part trying to keep their viewers happy and engaged because that's how they make money. You're generally not going to get authentic reactions from them.



This. I genuinely do not understand the thought process behind rushing the conclusion to a story people loved, mishandling it so badly in the process, and then expecting to keep people hooked. I get the impression Yoshi-P legitimately thinks all players are like the WoL was depicted in EW, who just love going new places for the sake of it and fighting ever more challenging foes. The thing is I can get that in any given MMO. What I can't get in most of them is an immersive story.

I'm left feeling the same way of what do I have to look forward to because EW put an end to everything I was invested in and in an unsatisfactory way. Even if I do see something that grabs my attention (I haven't yet) I feel I shouldn't bother getting attached to anyone who isn't a Scion. Even that's secondary to my concerns about what 'values' are going to be thrust upon my character in the future since nuance has been tossed aside. Seeing as how I didn't feel I was ethically on the same page as the writers in EW it certainly does not inspire confidence in their storytelling going forward.

Also, while I'm glad to see new faces in the thread, I'm also sad that we're increasingly losing people like PawPaw who have unsubscribed over this. Not that I blame them.

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^this. Venat lovers need to either stay the heck out of people's streams or sit down, shut up, and let them like what they like instead of threatening their livelihood. I love the Ancients, and I ain't gonna let a bunch of brainless people who want nothing more than to suck Venat's teats shut me up about it, even if I was making money streaming. It isn't fair that once you're a larger streamer you can't get away with liking what you want.

The problem is that Venat has a lot to like at the beginning, when she engages in banter/teasing the party and comes across as genuinely caring about the player. I can respect why someone would like her for these things, but after the ending of Elpis everything just spirals into chaos and the character flies too far from what originally made me like her in the first place.

Ultimately it was a betrayal, and it is unsurprising to hear that the FFXIV community yet again took to brigading against people for not towing the line when it comes to story reactions. I'd tell people to grow a spine but sponsors caving to external pressure is seemingly commonplace and I cannot blame anyone for not wanting to lose out on their income.

It will be interesting to see what the FFXIV reddit/twitter crowd think of FFXVI if it re-introduces the "problematic" writing style of Heavensward that saw us get characters with meaningful development arcs that concluded at appropriate points in the story, and situations that displayed the brutal realities of medieval life. I can't wait for them to cancel whole nation states over standard fare like noblewomen not being able to inherit property, or the sort of abuse that women and children undergo during war in that era. Will they also be mad that there may be no pride representation in that game despite the concept being largely irrelevant to Valisthea? Who can say.

I loathe the thought of having to cede this territory to them. FFXIV is still my favorite video game after all this time and to see it twisted to the whims of social media crowds that are notorious for being as superficial as they are moblike is difficult to accept.

I honestly can't stand most streamers. The silly thumbnails and over the top reactions are clearly feigned and there's more than one that only get money thrown at them because cynical individuals enjoy watching and encouraging public meltdowns.

It's also pretty weird that Yoshi-P keeps trying to present himself as being a 'gamer at heart'. If that were true, he'd note that streamers are a recent and pretty inauthentic take on the typical player and that he'd be better off reaching out to normal players and surprising them with requests for interviews or something. I've long paid more attention to posters on this forum who are consistent when it comes to their input. Although I don't raid at a high level, there's a few posters I've seen who put out well written feedback that is to the point, eloquent and clearly outlines common concerns from the perspective of a player with no financial incentive to pretend as if everything about the game is the best thing ever.

I just wish I felt like I was going on a grand adventure again. 6.0 was supposed to be the end of the ARR arc? Why do we immediately go to another shard? After we were just spoon-fed from Fanservice McGee that We HaVe BaReLy ScRaTcHeD the surface of our world?

Wish the Scions would disband for real real, and we could meet new characters.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I just wish I felt like I was going on a grand adventure again. 6.0 was supposed to be the end of the ARR arc? Why do we immediately go to another shard? After we were just spoon-fed from Fanservice McGee that We HaVe BaReLy ScRaTcHeD the surface of our world?

Wish the Scions would disband for real real, and we could meet new characters.

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Problem is that they're using the trust system now, and it needs at least 3 characters to join us for each dungeon. That's why we went back to the Scions so quickly in 6.1 when they had just disbanded at the end of EW. While Elpis did give us 3 temporaty characters, I doubt any patch will do the same, so we're stuck with Scions till at least 7.0, but perhaps we might get a single new character somewhere in 6.x.

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Originally Posted by Kisshu

Problem is that they're using the trust system now, and it needs at least 3 characters to join us for each dungeon. That's why we went back to the Scions so quickly in 6.1 when they had just disbanded at the end of EW. While Elpis did give us 3 temporaty characters, I doubt any patch will do the same, so we're stuck with Scions till at least 7.0, but perhaps we might get a single new character somewhere in 6.x.

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There is no reason why the underlying code that controls their behavior can't be transposed over to other characters of the same class, or reskinned with different abilities of another class in order to accommodate new party members. Add in Gaius with Thancred's AI. Add in the Thaumaturge Lalafells with Y'shtola's AI. The possibilities are endless. The fact that I'm waiting on Vrtra of all people to save us from the boring mess of the Scions is quite telling, given that he also isn't all that entertaining when he comes on screen.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I just wish I felt like I was going on a grand adventure again. 6.0 was supposed to be the end of the ARR arc? Why do we immediately go to another shard? After we were just spoon-fed from Fanservice McGee that We HaVe BaReLy ScRaTcHeD the surface of our world?

Wish the Scions would disband for real real, and we could meet new characters.

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“Even of Eorzea you know Precious Little” “Cool, does that mean we’re getting to explore the calamity bombed zones in the patches? Maybe uncovering relics of past civilizations like Amdapor or Sil’dih to learn more about them? Perhaps aetherically rebalancing Coerthas somehow to make it green again?” “No, off to another shard you go!”

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

There is no reason why the underlying code that controls their behavior can't be transposed over to other characters of the same class, or reskinned with different abilities of another class in order to accommodate new party members. Add in Gaius with Thancred's AI. Add in the Thaumaturge Lalafells with Y'shtola's AI. The possibilities are endless. The fact that I'm waiting on Vrtra of all people to save us from the boring mess of the Scions is quite telling, given that he also isn't all that entertaining when he comes on screen.

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Was talking more from a story stand-point as opposed to technical. Technically, they should be able to take frame-work from what they have and put it on other characters, but then again we've been told making Squadron members just have a bit of personallity is too much work, so I won't hold my breath for trusts.

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Originally Posted by Kisshu

Was talking more from a story stand-point as opposed to technical. Technically, they should be able to take frame-work from what they have and put it on other characters, but then again we've been told making Squadron members just have a bit of personallity is too much work, so I won't hold my breath for trusts.

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There were several moments that they let us run with brand new characters that weren't scions (or in the Trust yet/ever). The bunny lady from the Crystarium (I am so sorry I forgot her name) making an appearance, and I actually brought up back then that if you didn't do that dungeon with the trust you'd never see that dialogue. Now see the dungeon from Elpis - those characters aren't part of the trust, but were worked in for the narrative. We are not chained to the Scions because of the Trust System.

By sending us on new adventures they add more characters to the narrative, and more characters that can appear for those specific dungeons.

I don't know why they don't let us create our own companions. The whole deal with the Azem crystal is you're summoning in your non-Scion friends. Instead of giving me randos like in ARR Duty Support just let me create my own party (like retainers) or at least recruit similar to how squadrons work. I guarantee my characters and headcanon for them will be more entertaining.

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Originally Posted by Kisshu

Was talking more from a story stand-point as opposed to technical. Technically, they should be able to take frame-work from what they have and put it on other characters, but then again we've been told making Squadron members just have a bit of personallity is too much work, so I won't hold my breath for trusts.

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I genuinely do not give any solitary damns about the Squadron having personality. You are able to make them as OP as you want. That should be enough. Just fix the way you command them and holy Christ, we don't have to compromise any aspect of the game. Even better: provide an incentive to run with players you won't get in Squadron. Like this is not even something that should be an issue unless Yoshi is just sick to death of XIV and wants to be done with it, money and success be damned.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

“Even of Eorzea you know Precious Little” “Cool, does that mean we’re getting to explore the calamity bombed zones in the patches? Maybe uncovering relics of past civilizations like Amdapor or Sil’dih to learn more about them? Perhaps aetherically rebalancing Coerthas somehow to make it green again?” “No, off to another shard you go!”

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I'd also like to see all of that as well as more of the Xaela homeland, places such as Nagxia and the many nations mentioned in the Return to Ivalice/Save the Queen storylines.

New World zones inspired by native territories in North America or the likes of Tenochtitlan or Cusco? A trip to Vietnagxia? Any of the countries annexed by Garlemald? Corvos which sounds like it may be similar to Morocco from what we've been given? Inner Hingashi to see wtf is wrong with their government? Valnain which featured heavily in STQ? Nope, none of that, instead we're getting dragged to the dusky crumbling remains of an entire world inhabited by ugly ass imps. Why? So they can shove even MORE FF4 down our throats! HOW POPULAR COULD FF4 POSSIBLY FOR THEM TO KEEP REFERENCING IT LIKE THIS? WHO GIVES ENOUGH OF A DAMN ABOUT THAT GAME TO BE IN FAVOR OF THIS?

After the events of Endwalker, the song "Answers" seem a lot more dark in nature. It might just be me though.

FFIV remains one of the most well-received and historically significant Final Fantasy games of all time, to the point where playing it is apparently part of the curriculum in video game design degrees in Japan. Crossovers with it are as expected as they are welcome.

That being said, I would have preferred for the tie ins to it to be more grounded in the Source though the Void does have the potential to be fleshed out and interesting later on. Add in ruins of whole cities, or last bastions where humanoid voidsent reside. Add deserts with ashen blue sand where void sand worms live. Add a haunted forest zone enshrouded in mists. Mix together Castlevania with Dark Souls and you have a world people will want to spend time in.

An expansion set in a dark fantasy world of purple skies and black gothic ruins isn’t a bad thing, though the start of season 2 would have been better served by taking place anywhere else on the Source. At least the Void may bring back the sense of danger and suspense that the light-tainted setting of the First had back in Shadowbringers, but even that as a setting may not save the plot from the hands of the current writing direction.

The Heavensward team managed to make an otherwise generic elf kingdom incredibly deep and rich with culture and storytelling - the current team would cheapen the Void and reduce it to a mere joke because they can’t go 2 hours without pausing for a slice of life scene to “lighten the mood” because their intended audience seemingly can’t go too long in a serious direction without getting overwhelmed.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

The Heavensward team managed to make an otherwise generic elf kingdom incredibly deep and rich with culture and storytelling - the current team would cheapen the Void and reduce it to a mere joke because they can’t go 2 hours without pausing for a slice of life scene to “lighten the mood” because their intended audience seemingly can’t go too long in a serious direction without getting overwhelmed.

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They will insert some new cute voidsent character and they will sell cute new merch based on it and twitter will be filled with fanart of it. It will turn out there's a whole colony of these cute little void critters and we will spend an entire zone hanging out with them and dealing with their whimsical problems before continuing the actual plot.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

After the events of Endwalker, the song "Answers" seem a lot more dark in nature. It might just be me though.

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I always thought the messages it put forward were pretty bleak and dark (and funnily enough, dissonant with Dragonsong), but finding out the truth of what happened puts an even more twisted spin on it, IMO.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

The Heavensward team managed to make an otherwise generic elf kingdom incredibly deep and rich with culture and storytelling - the current team would cheapen the Void and reduce it to a mere joke because they can’t go 2 hours without pausing for a slice of life scene to “lighten the mood” because their intended audience seemingly can’t go too long in a serious direction without getting overwhelmed.

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I do hope that now that XVI is approaching completion, we see a return of Maehiro. A dream MMO for me would be one with Matsuno's world-building prowess and Maehiro's writing style... and some of Yoko Taro's boldness when it comes to allowing for storylines/choices where the protagonists don't always get their way.

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Originally Posted by YukikoKurosawa

They will insert some new cute voidsent character and they will sell cute new merch based on it and twitter will be filled with fanart of it. It will turn out there's a whole colony of these cute little void critters and we will spend an entire zone hanging out with them and dealing with their whimsical problems before continuing the actual plot.

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That sounds like future Beast Tribe content.

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Originally Posted by FatalFatalis

That sounds like future Beast Tribe content.

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Mmm... I don't know. Tribe content sounds a bit too tribal. I'm not sure we can call them tribes.
*scratches chin curiously*

I'm not actually convinced that the Void will even get its own expansion. I expect everything surrounding it to be resolved during the MSQ's and side content.

Personally I would have liked the Thirteenth to be left broken if there's no opportunity for further Rejoinings to take place. The Voidsent have been a consistent threat looming in the background that the writers could draw upon as needed so if the Thirteenth ends up being 'saved' then that's one less potential threat and mystery to tap into.

The game has an unfortunate habit of going scorched earth with intriguing plot threads that could be left hanging to add a bit of depth to the overall story. Furthermore, unless a character is lucky enough to trend on Twitter than the writers don't seem to spend much time following up on them anyway.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

After the events of Endwalker, the song "Answers" seem a lot more dark in nature. It might just be me though.

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I would say "live, die, and know" was as morbid as it was nonsensical to me always. Even moreso when you picture this while she 'symbolically' walks past a man slowly being lifted up and devoured by a grotesque terminus beast.

Looks like he knew!

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

I would say "live, die, and know" was as morbid as it was nonsensical to me always. Even moreso when you picture this while she 'symbolically' walks past a man slowly being lifted up and devoured by a grotesque terminus beast.

Looks like he knew!

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I was listening to it in the car yesterday, which is why I posted it. The lyrics "Release your hands, for your will drags us under" hits in a very weird way now if you look at it from the Ancients point of view, lol.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

I was listening to it in the car yesterday, which is why I posted it. The lyrics "Release your hands, for your will drags us under" hits in a very weird way now if you look at it from the Ancients point of view, lol.

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That line sounded more like lamenting the human condition back in ARR but now it just sounds like a threat now that we know it’s her “I’m going to kill literally literally everyone” manifesto. Really doesn’t paint a picture of a benevolent god to be told “I’m going to dramatically weaken you and shorten your lifespans from thousands to tens of years TELL ME THE MEANING OF LIFE YOU HAVE 10 SECONDS.” And like, that’s completely fine. Turning its meaning on its head to something darker and more twisted isn’t bad, it just needed to accompany her actually being this dark and twisted figure she comes across as when you analyze her actions. In that sense they missed a huge opportunity to really slap the player in the face with the truth of her nature by connecting the song that accompanied a game-ending calamity to her actions that literally destroyed an entire world! They just didn’t have the balls to do it. Now it’s just like “why am I supposed to be shedding tears for this lady who destroyed a whole world with a theme song that sounds like she’s celebrating her actions?”

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Originally Posted by anhaato

That line sounded more like lamenting the human condition back in ARR but now it just sounds like a threat now that we know it’s her “I’m going to kill literally literally everyone” manifesto. Really doesn’t paint a picture of a benevolent god to be told “I’m going to dramatically weaken you and shorten your lifespans from thousands to tens of years TELL ME THE MEANING OF LIFE YOU HAVE 10 SECONDS.” And like, that’s completely fine. Turning its meaning on its head to something darker and more twisted isn’t bad, it just needed to accompany her actually being this dark and twisted figure she comes across as when you analyze her actions. In that sense they missed a huge opportunity to really slap the player in the face with the truth of her nature by connecting the song that accompanied a game-ending calamity to her actions that literally destroyed an entire world! They just didn’t have the balls to do it. Now it’s just like “why am I supposed to be shedding tears for this lady who destroyed a whole world with a theme song that sounds like she’s celebrating her actions?”

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That would be such a crazy 180 I would start caring about the story again. I will buy 50 dollars of virtual items in their mogshop if they actually make her a villain, and i'm not talking about "Oh, it's her dark half!" or some copout like that. I want to see her go full Adachi when her master plan advances to the point not even the WoL could stop it. You hear that writers? 50 dollars on the table, make it happen!

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm not actually convinced that the Void will even get its own expansion. I expect everything surrounding it to be resolved during the MSQ's and side content.

Personally I would have liked the Thirteenth to be left broken if there's no opportunity for further Rejoinings to take place. The Voidsent have been a consistent threat looming in the background that the writers could draw upon as needed so if the Thirteenth ends up being 'saved' then that's one less potential threat and mystery to tap into.

The game has an unfortunate habit of going scorched earth with intriguing plot threads that could be left hanging to add a bit of depth to the overall story. Furthermore, unless a character is lucky enough to trend on Twitter than the writers don't seem to spend much time following up on them anyway.

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My predictions for the void story given what we've seen so far:
Vrtra's sister will be the dragon Golbez controls.
The four fiends will be the trial series.
The Void will be the exploratory area (where we end up defeating Golbez and saving the void).

No matter what happens I'm almost 100% sure that The Void will be saved before 7.0.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

That would be such a crazy 180 I would start caring about the story again. I will buy 50 dollars of virtual items in their mogshop if they actually make her a villain, and i'm not talking about "Oh, it's her dark half!" or some copout like that. I want to see her go full Adachi when her master plan advances to the point not even the WoL could stop it. You hear that writers? 50 dollars on the table, make it happen!

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They could also do something like, if they just FOCUSED on the time between the timeloop and teh sundering.

One Idea i had was we could be able to intervene when venat starts turning into hydaelyn, like venat see's how the light aether is making her intolerent of others opinion, and how to someone under that, one option is superior even if it involves genocide and it horrifies her. maybe we get a trial to stop the transformation and help divert the sundering...

That's a way I think to rescue/please both venat fans and those who dislike the reasoning behind the sundering, wont help everyone but its a way to turn a shadow over ff14, to a slight shade or light shadow instead.

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Originally Posted by Lucida3b

They could also do something like, if they just FOCUSED on the time between the timeloop and teh sundering.

One Idea i had was we could be able to intervene when venat starts turning into hydaelyn, like venat see's how the light aether is making her intolerent of others opinion, and how to someone under that, one option is superior even if it involves genocide and it horrifies her. maybe we get a trial to stop the transformation and help divert the sundering...

That's a way I think to rescue/please both venat fans and those who dislike the reasoning behind the sundering, wont help everyone but its a way to turn a shadow over ff14, to a slight shade or light shadow instead.

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This doesn't really address the issue that the plot as currently given has pretty weak justication for her becoming Hydealyn in the first place as there seems to be limited reason for needing to stop Zodiark now and the whole sundering seems to be mostly about Venats extreme ideology

I'm going to be annoyed if we're somehow able to save the void and everyone in it. First, because I don't like the idea that somehow we're capable of doing something unsundered Ancients weren't able to do after 10k+ years. Second, because we just went through a whole spiel about how if an entity's aether is corrupted long enough that physical transformations take place there's no going back. Third, because much like the First I don't particularly get any satisfaction out of saving desolate worlds. We'd be restoring the 13th for who exactly? Cyella and Unukalhai? Why? What purpose does this ultimately serve?

I could get behind a merge of the First and the 13th, if that's possible. I just don't want to start a trend where it turns out every shard has fared really poorly and is on the brink of collapse where we're able to save one small pocket of remaining humanity because for gameplay reasons we'll never explore the whole shard. Especially if we develop inter-shard travel, we may as well just move survivors to the Source and start mitigating rejoinings. :P

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

This doesn't really address the issue that the plot as currently given has pretty weak justication for her becoming Hydealyn in the first place as there seems to be limited reason for needing to stop Zodiark now and the whole sundering seems to be mostly about Venats extreme ideology

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Yeah, thats the issue isnt it, any suggestions for alternatives?

The only thing I can think of is we'd have to find a way to prove her wrong. Venat essentially had a crisis of faith in her people believing them both incapable of change and of manipulating dynamis. What we'd need are Emet and Hyth's memories restored ideally combined with the Convocation becoming involved to show her she's been consumed by irrational fear and isn't thinking clearly.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

The only thing I can think of is we'd have to find a way to prove her wrong. Venat essentially had a crisis of faith in her people believing them both incapable of change and of manipulating dynamis. What we'd need are Emet and Hyth's memories restored ideally combined with the Convocation becoming involved to show her she's been consumed by irrational fear and isn't thinking clearly.

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Here's my hot take, feel free to rip it apart and spoilers for current content. We know the Convocation had their own plans when dealing with Metion situation, what if the twelve is their answer? When you talk to the Gods after the myth's of the realm raid even they say that they have always just existed and they do have a duty but can't tell you until the new patch drops. Did the Convocation know of Venant's plans and just made a plan B just in case? If you remove you/Azem and Venant/Hydelen then that leaves 12. I'm not a 100% and mostly spitballing but I would not be shocked if the myths of the realm answers what the Convocation did during the final days and the Pandemonium raids will delve into how the land became corrupt to the point the final days could occur.

hermes was an idiot and zodiark stopped being the "true" threat since shadowbringers, but i kinda feel you.


that said, i was kinda disappointed that EW moved away from the core of the story and i felt the introduction of dynamis was rather hamfisted, as well as the blatantly disrespectful treatment of zodiark (that wasn't really even played up to show how tragic it all was; perhaps a tsukuyomi-esque "spirits of the dead attack the boss" phase would've worked well to show the tragedy of the noble ancients, but we never got that), but the actual story was good.

like you said though, i don't quite understand why venat, with a group of aether-abundant-and-therefore-mostly-unaffected-by-dynamis unsundered, didn't immediately assault herme's keep. surely Venat and the then-current traveler (incredibly heavily implied to outright be you from the past) would know enough people that are able to overcome those emotions?

don't get me wrong, i love the story, but it felt as if it was 3 expansions/patch storylines put into 1 rather cramped storyline. even the emotional height of the story (the walk) was basically "remember all these people and things that happened in other expansions?"

ill also readily admit that emet-selch's character was also rather butchered in EW, post-mortem. he knew that it was dynamis (the lack of aether if you're pedantic, because it's never explicitly stated that Hermes told him about dynamis) that caused the final days, yet he spent millennia pursuing a bandaid fix that, by the nature of the final days, would never have permanently worked and was doomed to fail.

endwalker was fantastic, and i certainly don't think the story was poor, but i do think that if it were anything but the finale of the story it'd've received rather differently. i think the biggest issue was having several rather disparate potential plot points (the nature of the final days, garlemald's downfall, the ancient's dilemma, Zenos' whole deal, Old Sharlayan and more im probably forgetting) and needing to tie them up in one expansion. Zenos and Garlemald were 1 expansion at least with old sharlayan being a potential plot point, the final days and the zodiark/hydaelyn saga were easily another expansion of themselves.

it didn't quite feel like it's own thing, but rather a continuation of past storylines. in effect, it was Stormblood 2, but done better and with better source material. Heavensward and Shadowbringers were rather self-contained storylines that each resolved other storylines, whereas SB and EW could not have existed without 2+ expansions each, and only really served to resolve these storylines with some minor new material.

again, i'd reiterate that i love EW's story, but i don't feel i would without the other expansions to prop it up. i'd love to hear everyone else's thoughts