Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Where did I make a big deal of it though?
Where did I demonize it? Like legitimately are you paying attention?

For the what, 3rd time? I said make them legal in Savage and Ultimate but keep it away from the rest of the game. If I was really demonizing it I wouldn't advocate for it in the game at all. Is this really so bad?

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It was because you, like so many others, brought up how people would use parsers to harass people. Like, sure they *CAN*, but like you and a ton of other people seem to be forgetting, the TOS isn't going to suddenly change to allow this behavior, and blaming this behavior on the tool rather than an asshole who is going to find a way to be an asshole regardless of parse legality is mindboggling. The scarlet letter throwing on a damage parser makes no sense when a parse tool being legal or not isn't going to suddenly make someone choose to be or not to be a dick. There are plenty of means of this already, why is *this* one suddenly the one that's too much, even though it has objective benefits?

Hell, I probably even agree that anything below extremes probably doesn't need a parser.

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

It was because you, like so many others, brought up how people would use parsers to harass people. Like, sure they *CAN*, but like you and a ton of other people seem to be forgetting, the TOS isn't going to suddenly change to allow this behavior, and blaming this behavior on the tool rather than an asshole who is going to find a way to be an asshole regardless of parse legality is mindboggling. The scarlet letter throwing on a damage parser makes no sense when a parse tool being legal or not isn't going to suddenly make someone choose to be or not to be a dick. There are plenty of means of this already, why is *this* one suddenly the one that's too much, even though it has objective benefits?

Hell, I probably even agree that anything below extremes probably doesn't need a parser.

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Kick features have objective benefits. Party finders have objective benefits. What's the difference? Parsers are against ToS as of now. The others aren't. I'm not blaming a tool, I'm pointing out a means people use to be toxic. Keep that method away from everyone and that method is used far less. Kicking and PFs can be used by anyone. Parsers right now are PC only. I don't believe any of this is unreasonable. Yes we can report bad actors but its possible SE would rather not open that particular door to all players in the first place. I can see the logic there.

As an example ive dealt with. I played BDO for a short time and was enjoying myself until chat eventually started to fill with talk of slavery, hard ers and more racist stuff like that everyday. Sure I can report these people but it made me not want to return to the game or associate with it. Maybe SE wants to avoid having folks leave for reasons akin to that. Idk

An official parse would give more control to groups to not only learn but police their groups and enforce standards shared by the group.

Sure more people using it may increase hard abuse but it seems more like people are afraid of their own based perception of abuse. They kicked me from the group because my damage was too low for them.

How is that abuse of the tool? If we are being fair even if we highball every encounter I doubt many can say removing someone from a group that does not pass the vibe check is wrong or toxic. What ia toxic is how they say or go about it. The tool has very little to do with how someone would address another person.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Call me when Console players can use ACT or any 3rd Party Tool. Many of yall seem to forget they exist

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They can use the benefits of ACT though. ACT is useful because of the logs it creates that gets uploaded. You then go through the log and see where you made mistakes etc. You have someone in your static upload or if you are in a PF more than likely someone in that group is going to be uploading once the fight is over. No need to have ACT running yourself as the dps number you see do nothing for you. You can't hit a magic button and boom increase your dps, if you glance over and see you are down in dps. Most people using ACT will glance at it here and there, but for the most part its running and getting ignored during the fight. It's after the fight when the log has been uploaded and you can go through the log and see what your GCD uptime is, if you missed any OGCDs if you are clipping gcds, breaking combos, hitting the wrong button etc. We all make small mistakes with out realizing it, and looking through the logs can help you identify what mistakes you are making regularly so you can work on them. You can also compare your logs against someone else on your job that is parsing higher so you can see if maybe they are using a different opener or holding OGCDs somewhere or tweaking the rotation. Again having ACT on your computer doesn't help you that much, until you start looking through the logs which console players can, unless they do not have a computer, or a phone, so I guess they can go to the public library to use a computer. But just because they are on console doesn't mean they can't use the benefit of ACT.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Call me when Console players can use ACT or any 3rd Party Tool. Many of yall seem to forget they exist

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That's why the original post is titled "Please add damage meters yoshi p"

And besides, console players can still share in all the benefits of ACT by simply being in a group with someone else who is logging.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

I just do not get it, ToS has rules in place that already meant to punish such behavior, yet for some reason it seems people want it to be proactive which punishes people that would use it legitimately because person X will use it to harass. Who are we to say person x would not harass someone anyways without it.

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They don't care about fact.

Some players are obsessed with the image of all raiders being toxic, elitist, rude players who kick innocent sprouts from leveling dungeons for missing a GCD and set impossibly high requirements on every single group in PF. It doesn't matter if you point out the ToS, it doesn't matter if PF is full of Practice parties, it doesn't matter if some of us have pugged Savage or even played WoW for years and never seen a kick for low dps in our lives, it doesn't matter if raiders write guides, offer to help and are friendly. They want raiders to fit that image and they'll cling to it relentlessly. They'll take any bad apples as concrete proof even if it's 1% of the overall raid community.

Why? Jealously. They simply hate other players achieving things and doing well while they struggle. Even if those other players are modest and don't brag, they hate that they even exist. So it's much easier to paint them as toxic and elitist and evil, then they're in the right and it's bad to be a raider.

The whole reason the ToS exists is to protect the feelings of people who want to live in a bubble. It exists so bad players can continue to live in an illusion that they contribute to their groups and are morally the correct ones. The reason for this is they're immature. If the devs don't cater to them they'll rage and throw tantrums and likely quit. While the players who want to do their best will grumble on the forums and present feedback, but in the end deal with it and keep going. It's easier to treat us worse.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Call me when Console players can use ACT or any 3rd Party Tool. Many of yall seem to forget they exist

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Ill give you a call right now because I AM a console player AND EVEN I can find my parsing uploaded by others riiiiiiiight here:
https://www.fflogs.com/character/eu/...laq#metric=hps

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Call me when Console players can use ACT or any 3rd Party Tool. Many of yall seem to forget they exist

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Again, if it meters were enabled in game you wouldn't NEED a 3rd party tool to access your performance.

It would be in game.

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Originally Posted by SassyAssassin

Ill give you a call right now because I AM a console player AND EVEN I can find my parsing uploaded by others riiiiiiiight here:
https://www.fflogs.com/character/eu/...laq#metric=hps

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Hmmm I did say using ACT did I not? Is it possible to run ACT on a Playstation? No it isn't. So you being able to see something after the fact isn't the same as seeing it in real time.

Also Deceptus you're missing the point of what I'm saying. It isnt currently available. They said those who want use 3rd party tools to be toxic already do so I pointed out console players can't due to the lack of said tools. Your point makes no sense

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Hmmm I did say using ACT did I not? Is it possible to run ACT on a Playstation? No it isn't. So you being able to see something after the fact isn't the same as seeing it in real time.

Also Deceptus you're missing the point of what I'm saying. It isnt currently available. They said those who want use 3rd party tools to be toxic already do so I pointed out console players can't due to the lack of said tools. Your point makes no sense

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We literally have a chat bar dedicated that logs your dps and healing, I don’t see what would be so impossible to implement. They don’t need to make it real time, they can show you after each duty finished like the pvp logs or after each duty failed.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

They don't care about fact.

Some players are obsessed with the image of all raiders being toxic, elitist, rude players who kick innocent sprouts from leveling dungeons for missing a GCD and set impossibly high requirements on every single group in PF. It doesn't matter if you point out the ToS, it doesn't matter if PF is full of Practice parties, it doesn't matter if some of us have pugged Savage or even played WoW for years and never seen a kick for low dps in our lives, it doesn't matter if raiders write guides, offer to help and are friendly. They want raiders to fit that image and they'll cling to it relentlessly. They'll take any bad apples as concrete proof even if it's 1% of the overall raid community.

Why? Jealously. They simply hate other players achieving things and doing well while they struggle. Even if those other players are modest and don't brag, they hate that they even exist. So it's much easier to paint them as toxic and elitist and evil, then they're in the right and it's bad to be a raider.

The whole reason the ToS exists is to protect the feelings of people who want to live in a bubble. It exists so bad players can continue to live in an illusion that they contribute to their groups and are morally the correct ones. The reason for this is they're immature. If the devs don't cater to them they'll rage and throw tantrums and likely quit. While the players who want to do their best will grumble on the forums and present feedback, but in the end deal with it and keep going. It's easier to treat us worse.

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Can easily say I don't care about your achievements nor would I ever say all high end players are toxic. Savage and Ultimate are separate from the rest of the game as far as I'm concerned as it requires a different level of skill than the rest. That's why I'm all for these tools in that content. There's no jealousy present at all and that's honestly a hysterical conclusion to come to.

Alot of this reads like borderline elitist bs and I hate even putting that label around. Stuff like that is precisely why some people see you guys that way. So what do we do, get rid of the ToS n just let everything be the wild west? How does that solve anything?

Currently? There's no Legal way to accurately gauge self-improvement in-game

In-game? We have " Stone-Sea-Sky " as an inaccurate way to gauge self-improvement which offers so little. For casual content? Players are not encouraged to be the best players they can be because it's not required. Square drags players possible dead bodies if they have to through the finish lines. Incentives for a DPS meter is near non-existent for this difficulty.

At " Savage" difficulty? Players are met with DPS checks where players do desire self-improvement and accurate results if they are improving, evident by just looking at FFlogs and you will bump into parties who use it constantly. Rather they use to record clears? or beating former self-performances? the most important thing would be that players " want to improve " and that a DPS meter is a tool to be used for just that. In-game? nothing offers accountability on rather or not you're pulling your weight or the reviewing the mistakes you made. You don't need a meter to clear content, but the incentive is improvement.

Does this mean DPS meters should be in the game?
I am not against a meter, as-long as it's limited to Savage and Ultimate raiding. They could even just do it for only being able to view your own DPS performance. But the big man Yoshi-P is against it so it's going to be a No, End of Story.

What about being bullied?
When I started on Aether? I got DPS shamed in Dungeons and Parse shamed in Alliance Raids. As a new player... Now you could say that's cause of the DPS meter... or? it's cause I was at the bottom of the enmity list. Either way? a DPS meter is a tool, and if players use it? they are breaking the TOS? but also they shouldn't DPS shame anyone ever.

A DPS meter at the end of the day? is just a tool. You do not need it to play FFXIV nor to clear content. However? players apparently use them obviously to self-improve and record their clears and load it up on a 3rd party website because there is a desire for it. Even the most law abiding JP region? has JP players also just using FFlogs. It is still illegal. Yoshi P has made his stance clear on it and I don't think anyone should think that should change any time soon.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

We literally have folks in these treads saying they would or have kicked for supposed "dead weight" reasons.

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And that's completely fine

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

They don't care about fact.

Some players are obsessed with the image of all raiders being toxic, elitist, rude players who kick innocent sprouts from leveling dungeons for missing a GCD and set impossibly high requirements on every single group in PF. It doesn't matter if you point out the ToS, it doesn't matter if PF is full of Practice parties, it doesn't matter if some of us have pugged Savage or even played WoW for years and never seen a kick for low dps in our lives, it doesn't matter if raiders write guides, offer to help and are friendly. They want raiders to fit that image and they'll cling to it relentlessly. They'll take any bad apples as concrete proof even if it's 1% of the overall raid community.

Why? Jealously. They simply hate other players achieving things and doing well while they struggle. Even if those other players are modest and don't brag, they hate that they even exist. So it's much easier to paint them as toxic and elitist and evil, then they're in the right and it's bad to be a raider.

The whole reason the ToS exists is to protect the feelings of people who want to live in a bubble. It exists so bad players can continue to live in an illusion that they contribute to their groups and are morally the correct ones. The reason for this is they're immature. If the devs don't cater to them they'll rage and throw tantrums and likely quit. While the players who want to do their best will grumble on the forums and present feedback, but in the end deal with it and keep going. It's easier to treat us worse.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

So what do we do, get rid of the ToS n just let everything be the wild west? How does that solve anything?

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This is where you're having issues. Right here. Why do you and others think that adding parses suddenly negates the TOS??? Why would the TOS change whatsoever if parsing tools were added to the game? I've asked *multiple times* in this thread, and not a single person has managed to answer this question that they claim is absolutely going to happen. Harassing isn't going to suddenly be okay!

Let me repeat

Harassment isn't going to suddenly be okay!
It's especially funny when those people *don't even raid*. Out of curiosity I checked a poster in... I think it was a different topic because they brought up either ACT or FFLogs, idr which, and, lo and behold, they had no savage/ultimate clears whatsoever (on their forum avatar, so obviously could be an alt but still, pretty funny).

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Originally Posted by FireMage

And that's completely fine

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It's literally allowed by the TOS - if there is a discrepancy of playstyles, if someone is doing lethargic gameplay, if it's your PF and someone isn't performing to your idea of 'up to par', it's LITERALLY ALLOWED to kick them from the party.

Heard it here first folks if you add parsing the game will devolve into pure chaos. Suddenly no rules will apply, and groups will start to kick melee Jobs from lowbie content because they lack aoe and their damage is low.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

So I guess you missed the instances where folks are bullied due to not having as high a performance as others. There's a reason SE hasn't put it in the game officially. Let's not pretend this stuff doesn't happen. We literally have folks in these treads saying they would or have kicked for supposed "dead weight" reasons.

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Well your surname is on point I'll give you that.

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Originally Posted by BristolRuss

Well your surname is on point I'll give you that.

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And that folks, is the best joke in this topic

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Originally Posted by BristolRuss

Well your surname is on point I'll give you that.

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Careful some will say that is "ToXiC"

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Careful some will say that is "ToXiC"

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I mean being a graylet is being toxic

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

This is where you're having issues. Right here. Why do you and others think that adding parses suddenly negates the TOS??? Why would the TOS change whatsoever if parsing tools were added to the game? I've asked *multiple times* in this thread, and not a single person has managed to answer this question that they claim is absolutely going to happen. Harassing isn't going to suddenly be okay!

Let me repeat

Harassment isn't going to suddenly be okay!
It's especially funny when those people *don't even raid*. Out of curiosity I checked a poster in... I think it was a different topic because they brought up either ACT or FFLogs, idr which, and, lo and behold, they had no savage/ultimate clears whatsoever (on their forum avatar, so obviously could be an alt but still, pretty funny).



It's literally allowed by the TOS - if there is a discrepancy of playstyles, if someone is doing lethargic gameplay, if it's your PF and someone isn't performing to your idea of 'up to par', it's LITERALLY ALLOWED to kick them from the party.

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I never said it was. I'm not saying things will go crazy. I spoke in the event that we got rid of ToS. The person I spoke to said ToS is there to shield bad player so I asked what would happen if we took that away. That was all. I never once claimed adding parses negates rules. No clue where that came from. Hell I even gave an example that incorporates reporting which is part of the ToS.

And yes kicking for whatever reason you want IS allowed. I said this already. My point is don't be shocked if some call you toxic for certain reasons you choose to kick people. Again that was all I was saying. I'll repeat it again. I'm 100% all for parses in savage and Ultimate. Just don't feel they need to be in any other content.

And to you people making jokes about my last name I wouldn't call you toxic, I'd just say it isn't funny to me n makes no sense as I don't savage raid anymore. I'm not gonna attack yall for being raiders and wanting these meters in game. It's low and immature

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

And to you people making jokes about my last name I wouldn't call you toxic, I'd just say it isn't funny to me n makes no sense as I don't savage raid anymore. I'm not gonna attack yall for being raiders and wanting these meters in game. It's low and immature

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Judging by the Lodestone, you haven't played the game AT ALL since 2019. So why should we trust your opinion on the current environment of the game?

Probably using an alt to post opinions unabated in forums.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Probably using an alt to post opinions unabated in forums.

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If that's the case, then it's basically like admitting that your opinions aren't worth listening to.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

If that's the case, then it's basically like admitting that your opinions aren't worth listening to.

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Their main account could be banned.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Judging by the Lodestone, you haven't played the game AT ALL since 2019. So why should we trust your opinion on the current environment of the game?

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I mean if you see what I talk about it's obvious I've played well past 2019. I'm not just pulling mess out of nowhere. I like others am posting on an alt. If you choose to write what I say off as white noise that is your right.

But you know what, I'll humor you. I left this character (the forum one) years ago for another and here it is if you must see https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...cter/21037886/.
I'm very much aware of the games current climate as I've been around nonstop for years now.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

If that's the case, then it's basically like admitting that your opinions aren't worth listening to.

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Anecdotes & memes about folks getting interesting treatment/DMs in game for speaking their opinion—for better or worse—elsewhere isn’t there without reason, though. So I kinda get it for wanting that extra layer of ‘security’. Of course, it comes with a consequence of not being taken seriously from time to time.

My favorite part is Firemage being embarrassed by the rank 1 RDM and still having the gall to come back for more in this thread.

Content for literal days

I don't think Firemage has the capacity to be embarrassed. He is ego incarnate.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

My favorite part is Firemage being embarrassed by the rank 1 RDM and still having the gall to come back for more in this thread.

Content for literal days

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Was never embarrassed though. Do try again

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Was never embarrassed though. Do try again

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I don’t need to try again. These forums live in your head rent free. Now hurry up and refresh the forums so you can see I posted so you can post some silly ass shit I can laugh to again. You were so quick to respond when you noticed I posted!


Hahahahah

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

I don’t need to try again. These forums live in your head rent free.

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Troll pls, try again. Come for my points instead of me next time. Oh wait, you can't

The greatest argument against official meters is a 5 minute perusal of this thread.

People seriously need to find a healthier source of self-worth lmao.

Funny thing in most cases the worst form of "toxic" behavior people will go through is being told they suck and maybe should uninstall the game. That is the worse case, most likely what will happen is what happens now silent kicks. Sure, we might see an uptick on people being bared from PF groups due to past performance. Willing to grant all these points, yet let me ask. Does it really destroy the game if someone calls you trash? Does it really have such a negative impact if someone kicks you from the group? I would say instead of a healthier source of self-worth many just need to have some self-worth to begin with and stop letting trolls and jerks online impact their state on mind and being. Since let us be real that is what this really boils down to people do not want to get their feelings hurt by "toxic" behavior. If this level of toxic behavior is enough to get people to quit or ruin their enjoy of the game, then idk what to say.

Yes I know people have gotten doxxed, harassed, swated etc because of game performance but let us be real here those are outliers and not the more common negative experience people will face.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Funny thing in most cases the worst form of "toxic" behavior people will go through is being told they suck and maybe should uninstall the game. That is the worse case, most likely what will happen is what happens now silent kicks. Sure, we might see an uptick on people being bared from PF groups due to past performance. Willing to grant all these points, yet let me ask. Does it really destroy the game if someone calls you trash? Does it really have such a negative impact if someone kicks you from the group? I would say instead of a healthier source of self-worth many just need to have some self-worth to begin with and stop letting trolls and jerks online impact their state on mind and being. Since let us be real that is what this really boils down to people do not want to get their feelings hurt by "toxic" behavior. If this level of toxic behavior is enough to get people to quit or ruin their enjoy of the game, then idk what to say.

Yes I know people have gotten doxxed, harassed, swated etc because of game performance but let us be real here those are outliers and not the more common negative experience people will face.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

The greatest argument against official meters is a 5 minute perusal of this thread.

People seriously need to find a healthier source of self-worth lmao.

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Yeah, people need to get some self-worth that isn't fragile enough to be broken by some stranger on the internet who might say your DPS is bad.

EDIT: Huh, my response to Bobby vanished. Oh well, idr what it even was LOL

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Originally Posted by Zebraoracle

This is where you're having issues. Right here. Why do you and others think that adding parses suddenly negates the TOS??? Why would the TOS change whatsoever if parsing tools were added to the game? I've asked *multiple times* in this thread, and not a single person has managed to answer this question that they claim is absolutely going to happen. Harassing isn't going to suddenly be okay!

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Pretty much this. Players desire to use a DPS meter? does not suddenly make harassment okay.

I seen harassment and discrimination a lot in FFXIV. You're more likely to be kicked from Savage parties you decided to want to help and pass loot for? cause you're a Lala. Couldn't be me... Heck you're 1000x more likely to be kicked out party for being a 99% percentile MCH !! yes for just being... a MCH... vs being DPS shamed through a DPS meter or FFlogs.

The irony... being harassed by players who probably don't use FFlogs? and then reading the forums about how FFlogs is being used to harass... I love it XD

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

Pretty much this. Players desire to use a DPS meter? does not suddenly make harassment okay.

I seen harassment and discrimination a lot in FFXIV. You're more likely to be kicked from Savage parties you decided to want to help and pass loot for? cause you're a Lala. Couldn't be me... Heck you're 1000x more likely to be kicked out party for being a 99% percentile MCH !! yes for just being... a MCH... vs being DPS shamed through a DPS meter or FFlogs.

The irony... being harassed by players who probably don't use FFlogs? and then reading the forums about how FFlogs is being used to harass... I love it XD

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That one machinist being kicked from a PF in week 17 or something was peak comedy.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

The greatest argument against official meters is a 5 minute perusal of this thread.

People seriously need to find a healthier source of self-worth lmao.

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after I was just approached by a certain red garb wearing elezen on discord who went out of his way to harass me, yeah im think i am fully on board with never having an official parser

even just one mentally unhinged person with an official parser in their hands is far too many

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

after I was just approached by a certain red garb wearing elezen on discord who went out of his way to harass me, yeah im think i am fully on board with never having an official parser

even just one mentally unhinged person with an official parser in their hands is far too many

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How was telling you to stop insulting me, harassment? Do I need to report you here as well?

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Originally Posted by FireMage

How was telling you to stop insulting me, harassment? Do I need to report you here as well?

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i have gathered the entity of your harassment and sent it to both the ffxiv as well as discord moderation team

good luck

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

i have gathered the entity of your harassment and sent it to both the ffxiv as well as discord moderation team

good luck

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There has been no harassment from me towards you