They Should Add An Official Damage Meter With One Condition

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Originally Posted by Klytania

An officially supported damage meter should be added, ...Virtually nobody would quit because a damage meter was added ...

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1: NO
2: I a lot of us would quite.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

1: NO
2: I a lot of us would quite.

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Any reason behind your firm opinion on this one? Assuming SE keep a zero tolerance against any cases of people harassing over parser numbers, what's driving your stance?

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

1: NO
2: I a lot of us would quite.

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Would you still quit if the damage meter was something that had to be enabled in the UI and was only personal? (ie. I could only see myself and you could only see yourself)

If so, can you please explain your reasoning?

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Originally Posted by Klytania

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i second having a damage meter that can be hidden from other players. it makes perfect sense to give players the option to switch it on or off.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

1: NO
2: I a lot of us would quite.

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theres no way you would quit. im calling that bluff right now.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

1: NO
2: I a lot of us would quite.

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Nah. You're too invested in it.

DPS meters alone do not improve player performance, since they do nothing to explain why a player may not be performing well. All they do is simply show damage output, it would be up to the other players, or in game tutorials, to help players improve and given the history of this community I really doubt that would happen.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

DPS meters alone do not improve player performance, since they do nothing to explain why a player may not be performing well. All they do is simply show damage output, it would be up to the other players, or in game tutorials, to help players improve and given the history of this community I really doubt that would happen.

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It's not hard to figure out if your damage is lower than expected you probably aren't hitting enough buttons or preparing combos properly. Not sure what tutorial you would need for that. The combat in this game isn't hard to figure out.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

DPS meters alone do not improve player performance, since they do nothing to explain why a player may not be performing well. All they do is simply show damage output, it would be up to the other players, or in game tutorials, to help players improve and given the history of this community I really doubt that would happen.

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OK? This is not really a point?

Showing the player that they're not performing well is already more feedback than the game gives in the first place, that is the crux of the problem

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Any reason behind your firm opinion on this one? Assuming SE keep a zero tolerance against any cases of people harassing over parser numbers, what's driving your stance?

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Originally Posted by EagleDynamics

theres no way you would quit. im calling that bluff right now.

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Originally Posted by Klytania

Nah. You're too invested in it.

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December 2004 to October 13th 2020. Never looking back.

I had 20 max level Characters (both factions), I had 5 Max Geared Raiding Characters, to include my Main a Blue Side Warlock which I had as a main since May 2005. I played 40+ hours a week before I retired, and 70-80 hours a week after I retired. I only quit twice, once for 5 months near the End of Panda Land in protest over a flying announcement (When I first came to FFXIV), and the day of Shadowland Prepatch, as I refused to go back to level 50.

I deleted my account when their misogynistic history came out.

I am sick and tired of toxic WOW mentalities and Damage Meters, because I lived 18 years of my adult life dealing with them.

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Originally Posted by Elesh

Would you still quit if the damage meter was something that had to be enabled in the UI and was only personal? (ie. I could only see myself and you could only see yourself)

If so, can you please explain your reasoning?

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Because people will always find a way to make an addon/app to detect the information, and there will always be a group of people who use that info to determine weather or not a person should be allowed into a group. Sure, they might not say things in public, but in private spaces, and on Discord, the information will be used to judge people, and no matter how good intentioned, it will always be used for ill. If Yoshi-P allows for even a personal meter, that is allowing for that information to become necessary for raiding. The only way that is acceptable, is if they added a personal solo challenge that gave out you numbers at the end. This way, it would be personal, and would be usable as a self improvement tool, and not a test of ability.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

I had 20 max level Characters (both factions), I had 5 Max Geared Raiding Characters, to include my Main a Blue Side Warlock which I had as a main since May 2005. I played 40+ hours a week before I retired, and 70-80 hours a week after I retired. I only quit twice, once for 5 months near the End of Panda Land in protest over a flying announcement (When I first came to FFXIV), and the day of Shadowland Prepatch, as I refused to go back to level 50.

I deleted my account when their misogynistic history came out.

I am sick and tired of toxic WOW mentalities and Damage Meters, because I lived 18 years of my adult life dealing with them.

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You're not convincing anyone by listing reasons that have nothing to do with damage meters. In fact, you're just proving further that WOW's downfall was NOT due to damage meters.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

DPS meters alone do not improve player performance, since they do nothing to explain why a player may not be performing well. All they do is simply show damage output, it would be up to the other players, or in game tutorials, to help players improve and given the history of this community I really doubt that would happen.

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Yet you can try different things and observe: Over repeated tests, did the numbers go up?

Not to mention that the most immediate per-second meter itself is only a small part of the available system. Take WoW's typical parsers as example.

• Want to track when and for how long you dropped a buff via a timeline and event chart? You can do that.
• Want to compare your action timeline against another of your own logs, or perhaps even compare each against their respective throughputs? You can do that.
• Want to find the most salient points of difference between how you played and a fellow player in your party of the same spec played? You can do that, too.

They have rather immense potential as learning tools.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Yet you can try different things and observe: Over repeated tests, did the numbers go up?

Not to mention that the most immediate per-second meter itself is only a small part of the available system. Take WoW's typical parsers as example.

• Want to track when and for how long you dropped a buff via a timeline and event chart? You can do that.
• Want to compare your action timeline against another of your own logs, or perhaps even compare each against their respective throughputs? You can do that.
• Want to find the most salient points of difference between how you played and a fellow player in your party of the same spec played? You can do that, too.

They have rather immense potential as learning tools.

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Fun fact, you can do this with FF14 parsers as well, you just have to upload the log to a website and it can chart all this out.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Fun fact, you can do this with FF14 parsers as well, you just have to upload the log to a website and it can chart all this out.

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Aye, I just like Detail's convenience for being able to do that in-game, no upload necessary. (Though, one would still need the upload for, say, running a 2D replay of the fight, as offered on Warcraftlogs, or for running their quick analyses, so it's still plenty worth uploading from time to time there.)

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Originally Posted by CosmicCoqui

Tbh that statement of yours is why the devs don't want it in game. If someone is going to say something like that without parsers in game, imagine if they were added. Probably be a lot worse and then nothing can really be done about it. A lot of people who keep trying to push for parsers to be added in game just keep proving yoshi's point as to why they should not be added.

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It's an honest thing. Though rather than a dps meter I would prefer if there were IN game means to teach people mechanics. I did the stuff with the smith when I first started playing and I don't think it adequately teaches new players these kinds of things. Things like considered AoE usage and when its again, considering using CDs when you get buffs. It would be simple way to implement it.

The largest issue is the game itself does a terrible job of teaching how to play in multiple scenarios. WoW has a "tutorial" like section when you boost a character where they have you practice both single target and AoE/Cleave abilities, core interactions within your toolkit, and important defensive/utilities. The initial job quests for RPR and SGE do have something like that but its very barebones.

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Originally Posted by Grebeny

They will not add DPS metter for the same reason chat is disabled in PvP, even if harrasment is against ToS, people would do it more often when the option is in the game and mods will have extra work.

On other side, FF is not made to have any DPS metter and (surprise, surprise), DPS metters are not accurate at the moment and they were never accurate. Big portion of the DMG is calculated with formulas or simulations to work around missing numbers or information. If SE are releasing thier own metter, they should provide accurate tool that guarantee proper numbers and with the current system that is not possible. I don't believe they will rewrite the entire workflow of dps'ing to help the part of the community that just can't understand how the battle system works and can't live without DPS metter.

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How so? ACT pulls information from the battle log. Any aberrations in the combat log either prevent it from being uploaded to FF logs or if it is, FF logs will not assign a ranking to it.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

It's an honest thing. Though rather than a dps meter I would prefer if there were IN game means to teach people mechanics.

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These aren't mutually exclusive, though, and usually the best way to put advice to practice is with, also, the ability to see clearly and objectively whether you've gotten it to work.

Only way it would work is if they had a very very strict rule about how you talk to others about parses. Along with of course, private parse only. I think basically no matter what, as long as they make it an immediate ban for bringing up someones parse numbers that it's fine since thats how it works right now anyway and it keeps people civil.

I'd like to repeat that actually. That's what keeps people civil.
A lot of people already use parsing things. but they're terrified of opening their mouths because they dont want a ban. And thats exactly how it should always stay. They could simply add them in but keep that level of strictness up and it'd be perfect. I say this with like 10+ years of mmos behind me. Parsing in itself isnt actually awful, its 1000% all in how people treat each other over it. If you let that run rampant, yes, it seriously changes and warps people into nasty little freaks and the games enjoyability plummets hard and fast driving many out because who wants to bother when EVERY run of EVERYTHING is about 'fast parse runs only'. Go on, ask blade and soul. Anyone pretending otherwise is just naive/inexperienced with mmos-or even worse, they were one of the ones doing it and see nothing wrong with it. Its just that behavior that needs to be controlled. So as long as they forever keep those types muzzled in fear of losing their accounts then yah maybe someday it could be possible.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

Because people will always find a way to make an addon/app to detect the information, and there will always be a group of people who use that info to determine weather or not a person should be allowed into a group. Sure, they might not say things in public, but in private spaces, and on Discord, the information will be used to judge people, and no matter how good intentioned, it will always be used for ill. If Yoshi-P allows for even a personal meter, that is allowing for that information to become necessary for raiding. The only way that is acceptable, is if they added a personal solo challenge that gave out you numbers at the end. This way, it would be personal, and would be usable as a self improvement tool, and not a test of ability.

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This argument has a really flawed premise to it. You're basing whether good people can have something based off of whether bad people could misuse it...

By that right we shouldn't have chat in the game. At all. No ability to chat. Because people who are mean can use it to harass people. We also shouldn't have gear, because people can judge people based off of it. And we shouldn't have glam, because people get judged based off of their tastes in glam.

Any system you add to the game... hell, anything that exists can be misused by people with the wrong attitude and intention to hurt people.

That doesn't mean we just... never do anything. No, we punish the people who misuse it.

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Originally Posted by EagleDynamics View Post
theres no way you would quit. im calling that bluff right now.


Quote Originally Posted by Klytania View Post
Nah. You're too invested in it.

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LMAO

I saw this back on the WOW forums as well

"They wont quit its all a bluff"

A few weeks later...

"...Hey, where is everyone?"

WOW has had millions of players over the years......and yet....

Where are they now?

Yeah, that was it. It was the dirty smelly elitist parsers who took WOW down. It wasn't Blizzard's awful office environment. Or their exploitative tedious game design. Or lackluster story. Or borrowed power systems. Or tone-deaf executives.

It was the parsing.

Toxic casuals are the worst part of FFXIV's community, and they prove it with their proud ignorance and Puritanical hatred of information every day.

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

How so? ACT pulls information from the battle log. Any aberrations in the combat log either prevent it from being uploaded to FF logs or if it is, FF logs will not assign a ranking to it.

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ACT can't calculate DPS with included buffs like Bard or Dancer when it's used as a DPS meter, it only spits out the raw damage everyone does. It makes every job that does heavy damage with no utility look like they're doing more proportionally than they actually are, and the opposite with jobs that do little DPS but have high utility.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

ACT can't calculate DPS with included buffs like Bard or Dancer when it's used as a DPS meter, it only spits out the raw damage everyone does. It makes every job that does heavy damage with no utility look like they're doing more proportionally than they actually are, and the opposite with jobs that do little DPS but have high utility.

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It doesn't do so constantly/spontaneously since that would greatly increase its computational needs and arguably wouldn't be any more useful to, say, someone trying to decide whom to give Balance/Dragon Sight, but a parser absolutely could make those adjustments if there was enough demand for that option that its makers would bother with it.

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

ACT can't calculate DPS with included buffs like Bard or Dancer when it's used as a DPS meter, it only spits out the raw damage everyone does. It makes every job that does heavy damage with no utility look like they're doing more proportionally than they actually are, and the opposite with jobs that do little DPS but have high utility.

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Right but its still there, and while its not in ACT overlay you can just live log it and check it in FFlogs for rDPS. Even then, if you are able to see the total damage of the raid group in the meter, then you still can make determinations for specific buffs such as who you card on AST, patterns for DNC or DRG.

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Originally Posted by Gothicshark

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I 100% believe you quit wow and I did too. But who are you kidding, you won't quit FFXIV.

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Yeah, that was it. It was the dirty smelly elitist parsers who took WOW down. It wasn't Blizzard's awful office environment. Or their exploitative tedious game design. Or lackluster story. Or borrowed power systems. Or tone-deaf executives.

It was the parsing.

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..which, over time, fostered a growing, hyper competitive, abusive, toxic and hostile atmosphere, combined with a lackluster and apathetic moderation team more prone to blaming those being abused, rather than taking any action to curtail said behaviour.

Player reports went unanswered or ignored, and instead of actually doing anything to deal with the situation, the ingame mods chose to sit there and allow it to continue in this fashion.

WOW's biggest drawback is its intense and continuing player churn. The fact that Blizzard allows, even ENCOURAGES dps shaming using said parser is why that game is now looking at a massive shortage of new players. Their retention rate is abysmal..sorry, make that non existent.

"But they dont encourage it". By their silence and inaction? Yes..yes they do.

New player experiences share one common theme..the continued, rampant and utterly vile abuse ENABLED by widespread use of parsers to "name and shame" ( read that as publically humiliate ) being a prime factor as to why they left the game and never returned.

Whats left of WOW now is the hardcore fanboy base, whose mantra is "people never quit WOW they always come back eventually"...denying the inescapable fact that their entire gaming culture has succeeded in driving away the very people they rely on to keep the game viable.

Deny it, handwave it away all you like Semirhage, to me makes no never mind. Blizzard could have nipped this in the bud a long time ago...one thing is absolutely true today. WOW may have many things to its name..but one fact remains: their community has earned itself a reputation, as one of the most toxic, abusive, vile, newbie hostile in the current gaming world.

DPS meters have very little benefit, and in retrospect to its history elsewhere, have a proven track record to not only bringing out the worst in people, but gives them a "license" to behave in a manner, when not protected by internet anonymity, they would never DARE to exhibit publically.

We would do well not to repeat their mistakes , their utter, inescapable, unforgiveable incompetence.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

DPS meters alone do not improve player performance, since they do nothing to explain why a player may not be performing well. All they do is simply show damage output, it would be up to the other players, or in game tutorials, to help players improve and given the history of this community I really doubt that would happen.

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This is why I don't care so much for an in game meter UNLESS they modified the combat log so you could upload it to FFlogs instead of the logs created via ACT.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Yeah, that was it. It was the dirty smelly elitist parsers who took WOW down. It wasn't Blizzard's awful office environment. Or their exploitative tedious game design. Or lackluster story. Or borrowed power systems. Or tone-deaf executives.

It was the parsing.

Toxic casuals are the worst part of FFXIV's community, and they prove it with their proud ignorance and Puritanical hatred of information every day.

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Do you.. Do you think this attitude is helping your case? Even a little bit?

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

..which, over time, fostered a growing, hyper competitive, abusive, toxic and hostile atmosphere, combined with a lackluster and apathetic moderation team more prone to blaming those being abused, rather than taking any action to curtail said behaviour.

Player reports went unanswered or ignored, and instead of actually doing anything to deal with the situation, the ingame mods chose to sit there and allow it to continue in this fashion.

WOW's biggest drawback is its intense and continuing player churn. The fact that Blizzard allows, even ENCOURAGES dps shaming using said parser is why that game is now looking at a massive shortage of new players. Their retention rate is abysmal..sorry, make that non existent.

"But they dont encourage it". By their silence and inaction? Yes..yes they do.

New player experiences share one common theme..the continued, rampant and utterly vile abuse ENABLED by widespread use of parsers to "name and shame" ( read that as publically humiliate ) being a prime factor as to why they left the game and never returned.

Whats left of WOW now is the hardcore fanboy base, whose mantra is "people never quit WOW they always come back eventually"...denying the inescapable fact that their entire gaming culture has succeeded in driving away the very people they rely on to keep the game viable.

Deny it, handwave it away all you like Semirhage, to me makes no never mind. Blizzard could have nipped this in the bud a long time ago...one thing is absolutely true today. WOW may have many things to its name..but one fact remains: their community has earned itself a reputation, as one of the most toxic, abusive, vile, newbie hostile in the current gaming world.

DPS meters have very little benefit, and in retrospect to its history elsewhere, have a proven track record to not only bringing out the worst in people, but gives them a "license" to behave in a manner, when not protected by internet anonymity, they would never DARE to exhibit publically.

We would do well not to repeat their mistakes , their utter, inescapable, unforgiveable incompetence.

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That's not it, meters have been since Vanilla and the game continued to grow all the way into Wrath. If anything, the game is losing people due to game design and the dumb ideas that come from the lead designers. The players that don't care for proper optimization or parses on Warcraft logs have left the game because its turned into a second job with needless restriction and hampster wheel gameplay, not the ability to track DPS.

SE makes the game with DPS checks in mind for certain content, which means that it requires you to optimize to some degree which could be toxic if you ask somebody to improve their play because they are literally the reason they cannot clear the fight. Does that not foster a negative environment then? Or negative interactions since your recourse then is to simply disband the group which cultivates a culture of run at the first sign of trouble. By your logic they should get rid of savage, extreme trials, and ultimate right?

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

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Nah, I disagree with this. Many players quit wow because the quality of the game's story and gameplay took a huge dive. Honestly, your bringing up parsing being the reason for the downfall of wow is the first time I've ever heard that.

they like to talk alot about stuff they know nothing about =p

Grasping at any reason, with lack of knowledge they cant even form a good reason. I can help them out and list about 3 really strong reasons bc well.... im informed :| but ill let them figure that out.



This is what happens when you keep knowledge from yourself on how stuff works, you know a wheel turns but you dont know why. So when it breaks you cant fix it

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That's not it, meters have been since Vanilla

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Yes, and I have spoken to many a Vanilla player that says the parsers made the game worse for many.

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and the game continued to grow all the way into Wrath.

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That spawned Gearscore, to this day one of the most reviled systems ever introduced. Bad choice.

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If anything, the game is losing people due to game design and the dumb ideas that come from the lead designers

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Many I have spoken to who quit WOW cite multiple instances of vile, almost obscene language enabled by parser use.

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SE makes the game with DPS checks in mind which means that it requires you to optimize to some degree. Does that not foster environment then? By your logic they should get rid of savage, extreme trials, and ultimate.

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Yes they do. And as has been stated, those encounters can and HAVE been cleared WITHOUT dps meters. The vast majority of console players dont use dps meters...and they have done it all incl Ultimate...so by reflection, your argument falls flat.

Have you done it though?

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Have you done it though?

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his sisters cousins mothers friends daughters imaginary roomate did, thats good enuff for him =p

BUT were they done while they were current?

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Nah, I disagree with this. Many players quit wow because the quality of the game's story and gameplay took a huge dive. Honestly, your bringing up parsing being the reason for the downfall of wow is the first time I've ever heard that.

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I didnt say it was the sole factor, I never said that at all. i said it fostered toxic behaviour. It enables that kind of attitude. It was not the sole factor by any means, but you name me ONE person, just one, who would tolerate that kind of behaviour and language in public.

People may scream abuse, threats, use obscenities in game...but put that same person face to face with the person they want to abuse, I can 100% gaurantee they wont DARE. When you face real consequences for your actions, you tend to not behave in that manner.

Under some circumstances, screaming obscenities and abuse at someone in public results in a set of handcuffs and a jail cell.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Yes, and I have spoken to many a Vanilla player that says the parsers made the game worse for many.



That spawned Gearscore, to this day one of the most reviled systems ever introduced. Bad choice.



Many I have spoken to who quit WOW cite multiple instances of vile, almost obscene language enabled by parser use.



Yes they do. And as has been stated, those encounters can and HAVE been cleared WITHOUT dps meters. The vast majority of console players dont use dps meters...and they have done it all incl Ultimate...so by reflection, your argument falls flat.

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Anecdotal. Never heard these reasonings.

Gonna run out of popcorn with all of this back-and-forth.. But I feel I've noticed two very clear things.

The pro-meter crowd want it because of a variety of reasons, the most down-to-earth being "self improvement". Others saying its to justify publicly shaming people for not performing to their standards. The former is fine, the latter works against the request, as you give SE reason to continue saying No.

The anti-meter crowd don't want it because it could cause things to get worse, citing other mmos and their handling of said systems as evidence. While some are indeed correct with its public shaming getting out of hand, there are others that have done it well. I cannot personally come up with any names at present, but I imagine at least ONE exists.

All the while, I cannot help but muster the fact that XIV players (PC specifically) are requesting a DPS meter to be better.. meaning that Console Players who don't call for anything and just play the game are at a higher skill than PC players. (Entirely an assumption, but amusing none the less, what with the 'bruised ego' jabs people have made)

That must sting..

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

I didnt say it was the sole factor, I never said that at all. i said it fostered toxic behaviour. It enables that kind of attitude. It was not the sole factor by any means, but you name me ONE person, just one, who would tolerate that kind of behaviour and language in public.

People may scream abuse, threats, use obscenities in game...but put that same person face to face with the person they want to abuse, I can 100% gaurantee they wont DARE. When you face real consequences for your actions, you tend to not behave in that manner.

Under some circumstances, screaming obscenities and abuse at someone in public results in a set of handcuffs and a jail cell.

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Who hurt you fam?

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Yes, and I have spoken to many a Vanilla player that says the parsers made the game worse for many.

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Sorry man, but I just don't believe this.