Lack of End Game Content

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Originally Posted by CazzT

No. WoW is not a good example to look up to. Maybe ten years ago it was, but definitely not within the last five years.

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Legion's critically acclaimed success begs to differ.

Do you want 3 month patch cycle or 6?

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

Do you want 3 month patch cycle or 6?

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Doesn't have to be 3 months. 6 months is fine as long as there are more challenging things to do at level 80.

Not everyone considers Raids/Savage Content as Endgame xD.

As someone who literally mains crafter jobs, not battle jobs, I have to say that it was very disappointing to see that crafters got little to no endgame content during 4.x. In 5.1, we are supposed to have Ishgard stuff, but Yoshida could just be hyping it up all for it to be a disappointment and boring/not challenging experience. (Which seems to usually be the case.)

ARR and HW crafting had a decent amount of challenging content. But it’s like, once 4.0 began, that all stopped. I hope we do get more content. I sadly have to agree.

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Originally Posted by Avraym

Legion's critically acclaimed success begs to differ.

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I played Legion, it really wasn't that great. It was fun the first time.... then it was boring to level through any alts; especially since there was no difference in story for either faction and world quests were pretty bad since it was the same 4 things over and over.

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Originally Posted by Jojokomoko

Doesn't have to be 3 months. 6 months is fine as long as there are more challenging things to do at level 80.

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You really don't know what you're saying.
Were you here on the start of HW?
Yeah...

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

You really don't know what you're saying.
Were you here on the start of HW?
Yeah...

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Are you serious? You're the one who doesn't seem to know that the content for a max level character in this game is lacking. I've been here since ARR beta so drop the snide remarks.

Edit: By the way, the reason why it took 5 months from 3.0 to 3.1 is that the devs took a well deserve vacay after their hard work on expansion launch.

FF-XIV never had much endgame content to begin with, this game always lived off being able to level all the classes.
Playing only one will net you with around 3-4hrs of maintenance per week outside of savage raiding.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

ARR and HW crafting had a decent amount of challenging content. But it’s like, once 4.0 began, that all stopped. I hope we do get more content. I sadly have to agree.

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Crafting was never challenging from a gameplay PoV. RNG + grind != challenging crafting process.
I'm not sad to see the RNG and timesinks gone.

I do concur that they should come up with a non RNG process that is more engaging than spamming prudent touch though.

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Originally Posted by RareItems

Not everyone considers Raids/Savage Content as Endgame xD.

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Well that is the problem with this whole thread because players are assuming that side content is the same as endgame content.

The general term of "Endgame" is content that you can only do at lv80+ you want to make use of all your new skill/abilities/spells etc you also want to make use of your high ilv gear so it's tested and to also test out your skill. Anything outside of that is considered side content or old content.

You can arguably say crafting/gathering is also endgame content at 80+ when you do the same for those but generally you would refer that as to crafting endgame not endgame in general.

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

Except the ones that are bored are a 1% group that blows through content...

Like, if you don't think they should waste development time on things nobody does (and let's me honest, they spend far, far less time on things like gold saucer or even crafting than on everything that goes into making raid content and other endgame style content like BA)- then shouldn't you be complaining about how much time they spend on making all the savage, ultimates, etc...?

You've sort of hit the nail on the head though- because that challenge mode is something only 1% of players do, they aren't going to go all in on it like WoW does. They'd be more likely to put more time into it if far more people did it, but from the sounds of it even the intended audience only does it once then is bored.

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Originally Posted by Catwho

I believe the 1% statistic is pulled out from Ultimate clears. This particular Reddit post was from last fall, but it showed that worldwide the number was less that 1% of all active characters: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...s_uwu_numbers/

I'm sure the number has gone up since then but for a long time that was the hardest content in the game, and very few people cleared it.

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You shouldn't be using that 1% data as to see why to create that content...

You literally could say the same thing about the gold saucer with triple triad how many players actually manage to collect all 272 cards? cuz its going to be extremely low as you are only focusing on a number who actual managed to clear the hardest content or in the triple triad case get the rarest cards that drop, you could say why even bother adding those types of cards if they are so hard to obtain and so little players ever get them.

You need to ask how many actually tried it? not clearing something doesn't mean players did not try/enjoy it.

It's the same for the extreme/savage fights just because alot of players never clear all of it or struggle to doesn't mean alot ain't doing it nor does it mean that they didnt enjoy it. Someone mentioned earlier that 90% of the playerbase are casual and ain't raiders so adding tonnes of new content aiming towards endgame raiders is pointless which is nonsense. If you exclude new players who are still levelling and making their way through the game and only look at players who have reached the max lv theres going to be a huge amount that do extreme and savage fights you only need to look at party finder for the last past 2 weeks and clearly you see theres alot.

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Originally Posted by Jojokomoko

Are you serious? you're the one who doesn't seem to know that the content for a max level character in this game is lacking. I've been here since ARR beta so drop the snide remarks.

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I've also been here since ARR sooo~.....
Saying that doesn't give you validation.

There is a lot of stuff to do, its just you don't want to do it.
What I think the OP wants is battle content maybe.

Atm there is a lot of stuff to level, craft,gather, gear, do shared fates, heck even third party stuff like parse.
Its not my fault you and others thinking the same thing doesn't want to do that.

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

I've always been here since ARR sooo~.....
Saying that doesn't give you validation.

There is a lot of stuff to do, its just you don't want to do it.
What I think the OP wants is battle content maybe.

Atm there is a lot of stuff to level, craft,gather, gear, do shared fates, heck even third party stuff like parse.
Its not my fault you and others thinking the same thing doesn't want to do that.

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Read my comment again, I specifically said "Challenging content to do at level 80".

And you're the one who brought up that Heavensward remarks first so what the hell is your point?

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Originally Posted by Avraym

Legion's critically acclaimed success begs to differ.

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kind of funny when legion is sandwiched between 2 terrible expansions

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Originally Posted by Jojokomoko

Read my comment again, I specifically said "Challenging content to do at level 80".

And you're the one who brought up that Heavensward remarks first so what the hell is your point?

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The first point was to say you REALLY don't want to wait 6 months for new content which when HW first started. We didnt get any new content for I think...4 months? or 5.
People were so starved for content the halloween quest, so many people logged on just to do something new the servers crashed.
Hence why I said you have no idea what you're saying if you think the community could handle a long delay for patch. Go play something else if you want that. I'm happy with our fast patch cycle thank you.

And challenging content is coming. Savage is in two weeks.
The normal player base is not even going to clear savage by the time 5.1 comes out.

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

The first point was to say you REALLY don't want to wait 6 months for new content which when HW first started. We didnt get any new content for I think...4 months? or 5.
People were so starved for content the halloween quest, so many people logged on just to do something new the servers crashed.
Hence why I said you have no idea what you're saying if you think the community could handle a long delay for patch. Go play something else if you want that. I'm happy with our fast patch cycle thank you.

And challenging content is coming. Savage is in two weeks.
The normal player base is not even going to clear savage by the time 5.1 comes out.

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THIS. People tend to forget the start of HW was horrible and that 4 to 5 month break nearly killed the masses. Noone is going to wait 6 months for content only a tiny bit of the playerbase is goign to do. NOONE. I still say right now is abit too early to be complaining about lack of endgame when we're not even a month into the new expac. And like you said... most likely a good 80% of people won't even finish THAT. SHIT people can't finish LEVELING dungeons NOW. You know how many wipes I've seen BEFORE 80? Too many.

It’s too early to complain? Mate, the content has been the same for years now. As long as the formula doesn’t change, we know what to expect. Yoshida even said what difficulty they’re aiming for, which I can tell you right now won’t even keep the midcore occupied until the next tier. Like I said in this very thread, my static is by no means a hardcore or highly skilled group. We are about average. Even for us the only time we couldn’t finish a tier before the next tier was in Alexander. Since then, they’ve kept lowering the difficulty to try and make it more accessible to the more “casual” player base. In turn, it lowered the amount of time it kept us busy, because people were clearing them faster.

We have just cause to complain/give feedback now. It’s the same thing over and over and over. The new expansion being just launched and haven’t gotten this tier yet doesn’t matter when it’s following in the same footsteps as the last two expansions.

Also y’all need to stop saying “if they add another boss then the game turns into a job. They want you to spend time with your families and play other things”.

1) adding a single boss to the mix will not turn it into a job. I find it funny how people who don’t even do the content and know how long it takes the average raider to beat the content are making these assumptions. It’s just false. Only the best of the best/world first groups blow through it in a week or so. They are a minority within our group.

2) I can’t speak for anyone else, but I spend plenty of time off the game. Especially after my dad died. I make it a point to take care of my RL responsibilities first. If my friends or family want to do something, I tell my static I can’t make it. We raid a few days a week for a few hours, and more often than not, that is my only game time. I don’t need someone telling me to spend more time with my loved ones, when I spend plenty with them as it is.

3) I don’t want to play any other game. I’ve tried a ton of different games, but none keeps my attention like XIV. Plus my FC that I want to spend time with is on this game. I’m also second in command, so I want to be there and support my online family. Other games don’t have them. This game is what I enjoy. My escape from irl. I shouldn’t be punished for wanting to keep playing or supporting a game that I’ve been dedicated to for years and adore.

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Originally Posted by LadyKairi

It’s too early to complain? Mate, the content has been the same for years now. As long as the formula doesn’t change, we know what to expect. Yoshida even said what difficulty they’re aiming for, which I can tell you right now won’t even keep the midcore occupied until the next tier. Like I said in this very thread, my static is by no means a hardcore or highly skilled group. We are about average. Even for us the only time we couldn’t finish a tier before the next tier was in Alexander. Since then, they’ve kept lowering the difficulty to try and make it more accessible to the more “casual” player base. In turn, it lowered the amount of time it kept us busy, because people were clearing them faster.

We have just cause to complain/give feedback now. It’s the same thing over and over and over. The new expansion being just launched and haven’t gotten this tier yet doesn’t matter when it’s following in the same footsteps as the last two expansions.

Also y’all need to stop saying “if they add another boss then the game turns into a job. They want you to spend time with your families and play other things”.

1) adding a single boss to the mix will not turn it into a job. I find it funny how people who don’t even do the content and know how long it takes the average raider to beat the content are making these assumptions. It’s just false. Only the best of the best/world first groups blow through it in a week or so. They are a minority within our group.

2) I can’t speak for anyone else, but I spend plenty of time off the game. Especially after my dad died. I make it a point to take care of my RL responsibilities first. If my friends or family want to do something, I tell my static I can’t make it. We raid a few days a week for a few hours, and more often than not, that is my only game time. I don’t need someone telling me to spend more time with my loved ones, when I spend plenty with them as it is.

3) I don’t want to play any other game. I’ve tried a ton of different games, but none keeps my attention like XIV. Plus my FC that I want to spend time with is on this game. I’m also second in command, so I want to be there and support my online family. Other games don’t have them. This game is what I enjoy. My escape from irl. I shouldn’t be punished for wanting to keep playing or supporting a game that I’ve been dedicated to for years and adore.

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But how do you answer adding more work for thigs that won't even be used by half the people in this very thread? Look I'm not against more endgame, but my issue is half the time the people complaining don't do what we have. Maybe more people need to do what we have so SE will have the numbers we want more. Cause I'm sorry... if the numbers don't reflect the yelling then why should they do something?

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Originally Posted by xxvaynxx

I've also been here since ARR sooo~.....
Saying that doesn't give you validation.

There is a lot of stuff to do, its just you don't want to do it.
What I think the OP wants is battle content maybe.

Atm there is a lot of stuff to level, craft,gather, gear, do shared fates, heck even third party stuff like parse.
Its not my fault you and others thinking the same thing doesn't want to do that.

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^ This

and
I am surprised, that people are surprised about raids in general or updates, it has been like this for ages, update +1 dungeon and raids, or trials, and that is it.

The Eorzea is much more than just trial/raid

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Originally Posted by grinkdaboy

kind of funny when legion is sandwiched between 2 terrible expansions

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Absolutely - but Legion was still a smash.

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Originally Posted by LadyKairi

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Except nobody is asking for just one more boss to be added. Literally SE could add 10 more bosses and people would beat them then come in here to moan, but that's besides the point.

You basically want to have your cake and eat it. You keep yelping "I don't want to play any other game", but then moan about Final Fantasy XIV being Final Fantasy XIV. Nobody is punishing you, you are punishing yourself by limiting yourself to an experience that simply doesn't tick the boxes you want it to.

Obviously not everything with the game is perfect, but no game is perfect and it all comes down to what you're willing to overlook. Clearly this issue is not one you are willing to overlook because you are here, despite being aware the game will not change it's formula to accommodate you, endlessly posting about it. When even the game's Producer/Director says he wants people to take breaks, unsub, play other games, do other things, then well, that's just Final Fantasy XIV.

FFXIV is for casuals not for the hardcore with no job or care for there own time. This game was meant to be played at a casual pace not being on the game 12 hours a day every single day rushing through content at blazing speeds. There is tons to do in this game its just that most of it doesn't appeal to the hardcore players.

Just face it SE added SOME elements of hardcore to the game but it isnt going to do anything more because casuals>hardcore players because of one thing only and thats subs the casual player will be subbed longer then the hardcore players that sub for a month or two blazing through the new content then unsub.

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Originally Posted by Vonleo

FFXIV is for casuals not for the hardcore with no job or care for there own time. This game was meant to be played at a casual pace not being on the game 12 hours a day every single day rushing through content at blazing speeds. There is tons to do in this game its just that most of it doesn't appeal to the hardcore players.

Just face it SE added SOME elements of hardcore to the game but it isnt going to do anything more because casuals>hardcore players because of one thing only and thats subs the casual player will be subbed longer then the hardcore players that sub for a month or two blazing through the new content then unsub.

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I agree that Square Enix seems to prioritize casuals over hardcore players. I’ve known this ever since they nerfed crafting in 4.0 by adding Prudent Touch. The least they could do is make crafting more thought-intuitive. Instead of spamming Prudent/ Preparatory Touch every 2 seconds like a 7 year old.

What I do disagree with, is that casuals will sub longer. If anything, hardcore players will sub longer and still continue to do so. I am a hardcore crafter, I craft hundreds of pieces of endgame gear for all 8 of my servers on my data Center and earn several hundred gil a month. I have subbed since 2.x. And other players I know who are also hardcore have stayed subbed.

If anything, casual players will sub temporarily. Because they just don’t have the luxury of time.

Hardcores will in general sub longer if the game has sufficient content to do. They are more invested in the game, their team/guild, and characters.

Honestly I find it is the casuals who are more willing to jump from game to game in most situations. Hardcores tend to only leave when they get fed up with being bored and feel they have no choice. And once they leave and are hardcore somewhere else and invest in something, they are far less likely to ever come back even at an expansion.

FFXI is proof of this, Active sub count was very stable for the majority of its peak life. There was no massive increase and decrease of sub count based on was there a new expansion, was there a new patch. It stay almost the same. /See All always pulled between 3600-4500 online almost 24hrs a day on almost every server. You seen the same people for 5+ years no matter where you looked on the server. MY guild at one point on that game was made up of a majority of people who played a constant 30+hrs a week and been in the guild for 3+yrs. So I horribly disagree with casuals stay longer.

Can also look to everquest, look at the hardcore players in Classic/BC/Wotlk WoW. They all stayed subbed for the majority of the time. In WoW only after a few expansion of utter garbage did they finally give up on their investment of potentially 10yrs.

Profitability wise have 2million casuals play your game for 2months at an expansion, then dip to 750k-1mill subs, then up to 1.25 for a month, then down to 750k, repeat until next expansion. Probably makes more money then FFXI's constant 550k-600k though at its peak.

And Yoshida saying he wants people to take breaks, there is a reason he is saying this.... No dev says "You Know I want people to play our competition instead of ffxiv after a while and give them money instead of us". He is basically just admitting with this style game his team with their funding and size is not capable of delivering the amount content required to keep Mid and Hardcores playing full time. Which with as casual as FFXIV is they would need to almost triple the content being added, so it is understandable. That cost would be absurd.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

And Yoshida saying he wants people to take breaks, there is a reason he is saying this.... No dev says "You Know I want people to play our competition instead of ffxiv after a while and give them money instead of us". He is basically just admitting with this style game his team with their funding and size is not capable of delivering the amount content required to keep Mid and Hardcores playing full time. Which with as casual as FFXIV is they would need to almost triple the content being added, so it is understandable. That cost would be absurd.

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Nah, the reality is, you can never sate the entertainment of a hardcore gamer because no matter how much content you throw at them it will never be enough.

It is a plateau when it comes to how much you can invest in content for hardcore gamers in comparison to the profit margin. As it stands now they most likely have the best middle-ground to satisfy the needs of both types of gamers. In SE's head it's worth it if the hardcore community plays on 2 months cycles, taking a break on the 3rd cause that's still 30 every 2 months, if they pay by month, since you can't really do a 3/6 month if you want to take a break, so for SE it's potentially more profitable to have these hardcore gamers pay to play the game every 8 months paying 120 then it be for them to sub for 6 months at a time and pay 156/yr. The lost of money isn't that huge, it's a 36 dollar difference which isn't a big loss. Even if a person only plays on a monthly basis coming back every patch that's still 75/yr which is the cost of an average new game which is still good in their books especially if you can sustain that through a huge playerbase.

If anything, it's also better to not have a huge amount of content for hardcore gamers since the other issue is burn out. If you create to much difficult content and have players play through it aiming to be the first, then by the time they achieve everything they might be to burned out to play the game.

I consider myself a casual but I never quite "jump off" to different games. I don't do savage raids so once I hit endgame, FFXIV becomes my "background game" aka the game I can always turn to when I'm sorta bored but don't really feel like making progress in other games. It's always there, just not at the forefront (unless it's patch day). I personally take no issue with the game's update cycle. It suits my lifestyle (med student) just fine.

I do sympathize with folks who want more and more and more at endgame but... it ain't gonna happen, friends. It is just not in them to do that, and it's ultimately something that comes down to the core of their design philosophy.

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Originally Posted by Airget

Nah, the reality is, you can never sate the entertainment of a hardcore gamer because no matter how much content you throw at them it will never be enough.

It is a plateau when it comes to how much you can invest in content for hardcore gamers in comparison to the profit margin. As it stands now they most likely have the best middle-ground to satisfy the needs of both types of gamers. In SE's head it's worth it if the hardcore community plays on 2 months cycles, taking a break on the 3rd cause that's still 30 every 2 months, if they pay by month, since you can't really do a 3/6 month if you want to take a break, so for SE it's potentially more profitable to have these hardcore gamers pay to play the game every 8 months paying 120 then it be for them to sub for 6 months at a time and pay 156/yr. The lost of money isn't that huge, it's a 36 dollar difference which isn't a big loss. Even if a person only plays on a monthly basis coming back every patch that's still 75/yr which is the cost of an average new game which is still good in their books especially if you can sustain that through a huge playerbase.

If anything, it's also better to not have a huge amount of content for hardcore gamers since the other issue is burn out. If you create to much difficult content and have players play through it aiming to be the first, then by the time they achieve everything they might be to burned out to play the game.

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That's odd, because FFXI satisfied my desires back when I was 18 and played 60+ hours a week. Sky, Sea, Einherjar, Limbus, Dynamis, Salvage, Assault, HNMS. Yet somehow, now when I have a full time job and can only devote 20 hours or so a week to this game, I blow through experts/extreme/savage within 2 months. This statement is a cop-out. But I guess a lot of people here don't remember or haven't experienced what the old MMOs were like and think it's just not possible to make enough content to satisfy 'hardcore' players. As is, they can't even satisfy the midcore.

Not a raider due to internet issues but I'll add my 2 cents here from my other experiences.

I don't think you should asking for just harder fights, but better (and more engaging) designed harder fights. There are interesting ideas from normal dungeons and Alliances that could be upgraded:

- Force the team to split up far away from each other to do different mechanics that benefit the other players for example https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...e5_0cV2Awc1Rf6
- Have an Adds wave you have to kill in order à la Canals in order to prevent the boss from getting a Damage Up boost
- Have more evolving fights instead of Pattern A or Pattern B
- Have us use our mounts for a part of the fight to race or escape something, I don't know

The ideas are there, they're just in other types of available content. The forums are full of suggestions good or bad for inspiration!
They should also look at other MMOs (even the P2W ones, they still have cool mechanics in their dungeons) for references and I mean MMOs other than FFXI and WoW at some degree. References are the basis of art and design after all.
TL;DR I suggest you ask for better quality battles with higher replayability value than what we have now instead of simply more content easily zerged through.

Of course, I believe the Devs should step away from Boss Rush "raids" and actually do proper ones. The type that lasts at least an hour and you can't binge Netflix on your second monitor. A small arena with a boss where you fall off just feels bland, let us interact with the environment more! Ultimate is the ultimate progression goal but other than those boss rushes, what other type of hard combat content is there?

Combat content is end-game because it's the main focus of FF14. You can't really level up your crafters to 80 unless you complete ShB as a main Disciple of War or Magic. So since it's the main focus of FF14, doesn't it make sense to have an actual hard and challenging post-story? To people moaning that they can't access the story of that raid, well you gotta put in effort to get that shiny carrot now don't you?

The main issue as many noted is the funding. SE isn't giving back nearly enough to their cashcow and that is preventing us from actually getting better stuff whether it's QoL or more content in general. The consequences of that is a divided fanbase that will attack each other and to hell with the ones who hate it or dare criticize it (the classic "Well why don't you unsub and play something else you ungrateful lot"). Don't always be grateful for what we have, ask for more. It keeps them on their toes and prevents complacency to a level. Why aim to amaze when they're just content with whatever they have?

As for people quoting Yoshida on being able to take breaks, I can't really do that while I'm shackled to my house on a popular server inside a shitty Housing system now can I? He might say one thing, but some game additions go counter to and prevent that.

All in all, even though it's not my type of content, I believe having more (and better-designed) fights for those players loving a hard challenge is a good thing for the community since it clearly states a post-MSQ goal point for its main gameplay focus and thus might get more people to dip their toe in it. You don't have to play 30 hours a week to progress through hard content in my experience.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

You enforce a lot of your points by referencing big wow figureheads such as Asmongold or hazelnutty out of context. WoW giving you OPTIONS for ways to gear yourself and progress your character is a GOOD thing. You can enjoy things like PVP or world quests(fate equivalents) while also receiving some decent gear on the side. That's not what people dislike about BFA. What they dislike is that these options have a chance to titanforge, essentially winning the lotto and turning that throwaway piece of gear into something potentially better than anything you'd get from the most difficult or competitive content available of that patch cycle. You can imagine that doesn't sit well with the more hardcore playerbase.

But the principle that anything you put time into should give something back is not a bad one, just executed very poorly by blizzard. I would PVP more on 14 if it gave me a modicum of a reward, and didn't feel like I was doing it just for the sake of doing it.

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It isn't optional if you want BiS.

It isn't decendent side gear, it is gear that is better than what can be obtained from the raid.

Imagine some of your best gear coming from beat tribes rather than savage; then imagine being a raider who dislikes beat tribe dailies.

Yes, titanforging is hated, but that's actually a separate issue to making non-raid content be required for some of the best raid gear.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

Hardcores will in general sub longer if the game has sufficient content to do. They are more invested in the game, their team/guild, and characters.

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No, it's completionists that stick around forever. I suppose it's a different kind of hardcore. But the completionists are the ones who are out here trying to get all the classes to 80, get all the FATE achievements, get all the PVP gear before the Garo event ends, etc. And the completionists are not the ones complaining about there being "nothing to do."

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Originally Posted by Airget

Nah, the reality is, you can never sate the entertainment of a hardcore gamer because no matter how much content you throw at them it will never be enough.

If anything, it's also better to not have a huge amount of content for hardcore gamers since the other issue is burn out. If you create to much difficult content and have players play through it aiming to be the first, then by the time they achieve everything they might be to burned out to play the game.

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Yet a number of games do manage to sate the more hardcore gamers with far less content than most MMOs get. Just go watch a few challenge speedruns of various games such as a Super Metroid 14% run or find out how much time some have put into games like Diablo 2, Disgaea, or Dark Souls to name a few.

As to the burnout front, in FFXI it was never the hard content that burnt me out. Sure I would need breaks from it but that was due to being tilted thanks to frustration or being tired. What would burn me out was farming stuff for gil for high end items, having to solo farm/attempt things related to RMEs because most people would rather get a root canal then help someone else out if they couldn't immediately use them in return. When I was having to solo grind for progress is when I burnt out, not when I was doing hard group content.

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Originally Posted by Avraym

Absolutely - but Legion was still a smash.

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Really?

Where people who couldn't get an item were BENCHED simply to due to poor RNG, completely unrelated to their ability.

The introduction of massive titantforging everywhere, so you and your raid partner can have massively different item levels, even though you did the same content?

Where the reputation rewards were placed in a lootbox that had such a low chance of giving you the item that you do do the same quests forever, and never earn it?

The introduction of a new area, with weekly quests so barren that today they can all be done in a day, but with time gating, took place for players over the span of months, and in the process, delayed their ability to fly?

Argus - one of the most hated zones ever created; and the newly gained ability to fly - was disallowed?

Professions where progression was also based on RNG, so only something like 10% of miners ever got everything three-starred just because the quest never proced for them, no matter the time investment.

Suramar questline was there at the beginning, nothing like that ever repeated.

People remember the beginning of Legion, class halls, artifacts, and forget the legendary RNG, the horror of the added zones, and the fact that the playerbase steadily decreased from start to finish. Legion looks good next to BFA and WoD, but it looks horrible compared to pretty much all other expansions. At best on par with MoP and Cata.

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Originally Posted by CookiesNCreams

I agree that Square Enix seems to prioritize casuals over hardcore players. I’ve known this ever since they nerfed crafting in 4.0 by adding Prudent Touch. The least they could do is make crafting more thought-intuitive. Instead of spamming Prudent/ Preparatory Touch every 2 seconds like a 7 year old.

What I do disagree with, is that casuals will sub longer. If anything, hardcore players will sub longer and still continue to do so. I am a hardcore crafter, I craft hundreds of pieces of endgame gear for all 8 of my servers on my data Center and earn several hundred gil a month. I have subbed since 2.x. And other players I know who are also hardcore have stayed subbed.

If anything, casual players will sub temporarily. Because they just don’t have the luxury of time.

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The people saying there is a lack of end game content - they will tell you that your crafting isn't end-game content.
I understand what you are saying, but I want you to appreciate that they want more raid bosses, or raid-difficulty level dungeons.
They don't care about crafting, and adding more things to crafting, is irrelevant to them.
They view you as a casual because they view anything related to crafting as being a casual.

Your argument is actually consistent with people arguing there is end-game content.
The people protesting, because it's specific to dungeons and raids, consider what you do irrelevant and call it casual as a way to demean it.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

The people saying there is a lack of end game content - they will tell you that your crafting isn't end-game content.
I understand what you are saying, but I want you to appreciate that they want more raid bosses, or raid-difficulty level dungeons.
They don't care about crafting, and adding more things to crafting, is irrelevant to them.
They view you as a casual because they view anything related to crafting as being a casual.

Your argument is actually consistent with people arguing there is end-game content.
The people protesting, because it's specific to dungeons and raids, consider what you do irrelevant and call it casual as a way to demean it.

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You are being deceitful and coming of as spiteful and bitter to someone trying engage in fruitful dialogue. Look at you trying to woo and convert this person to your cause with your us vs them mentality. You should be ashamed of yourself.

If you had took your fanboy shades off for a second and pay attention to the crux of this topic, no one is calling other activities as "irrelevant" The topic created is focused on discussion concerning a specific sector of the game and its quality-80LvL content for battle classes.

Her arguments is fair, whether it be casual or hardcore, is consistent with the crafting community sector and is a well noted point. Take your Condescending Tribalism elsewhere.

A good quote from the one of the "Hardcore" that you seem to loath soo much, maybe you could learn a few from him.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I think a lot of the issues are stemming from the fact that an us versus them mentality is pervasive from both sides. It doesn't need to be that way. SE has enough funds to hire additional resources to give hardcore players something extra, while still pumping out casual content. They already funnel the funds to other games, and this is confirmed. No reason for them not to allocate more to their golden goose(FFXIV).

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It's not a good quote though, it's a blissfully ignorant quote. Their "golden goose" provides more than they need to feed it. It's become a perfect model for them and they see absolutely no reason to change it unless called for.

Hate against the idea of 'us vs them' as much as you want, it won't go away. They want something that isn't being included. They don't want the thing that is; it's something that is challenging what they want out of the game. Getting what you want comes at a cost of someone else's wants because not every little thing can be implemented at once, altogether, for every person.

Even were it a large scale team with dedicated groups developing content, content will be staggered, and it won't always be some perfect 50/50 split of what you want and what someone else wants. One side is always going to get more of what they want than the other. And the side that has more people are going to be favored more because there are more to provide to, who in turn earn more revenue.

This all being on top of there was and always has been a specific demographic this game was created and catered for. If you're not under that demographic then you're immediately always going to be at a disadvantage to getting what you want.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

That's odd, because FFXI satisfied my desires back when I was 18 and played 60+ hours a week. Sky, Sea, Einherjar, Limbus, Dynamis, Salvage, Assault, HNMS. Yet somehow, now when I have a full time job and can only devote 20 hours or so a week to this game, I blow through experts/extreme/savage within 2 months. This statement is a cop-out. But I guess a lot of people here don't remember or haven't experienced what the old MMOs were like and think it's just not possible to make enough content to satisfy 'hardcore' players. As is, they can't even satisfy the midcore.

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FFXI was also generally a lot more harsh on the time gating, and in some cases, direct competition. Prior to Abyssea, I was personally contemplating quitting the game because I'd pretty much did all the things you listed to the degree I was satisfied with, and I deliberately started late in endgame around 2006 or so because I didn't really have it in me to put up with a lot of the early HNM drama. Perhaps the only content I never chose to chase was making a relic weapon, as for a long while it was literally doing Dynamis for the sake of one or two people in a group, while otherwise being a significant gil sink as an alternative for what I considered an insufficient benefit. Some would argue otherwise, certainly, and there was also denying some weapons were more LOL than others depending on favored job. A RDM trying to coax a group to get them an Excalibur would meet a lot more resistance than a DRK wanting an Apocalypse or Ragnarok, as a comparison.

But FFXI was a different beast, particular when it came to allowing gear swapping mid-combat. Frankly, it's a feature I'm glad XIV didn't embrace. What this usually led to was content having niche interest relative to the rewards offered, as opposed to being more generalized like a token system. Sure, the general idea might've been that if you helped others get what they wanted, they'd help you, but I imagine most anyone who really got into XI had times where when it was "their turn" that help was suddenly not available, your shell got quiet after asking, or people even arguing that shouldn't bother chasing certain things precisely because they weren't meta. What this commonly translated to was just irksome time sink, further if what you did want didn't have a decent drop rate and you had to do the herding cats dance repeatedly.

Perhaps the one system I'm sad XI eventually abandoned was the Magian Trials. Not that I was glad about stupid things like weather kills, but more that it offered bite-sized, often soloable content with a tangible reward at the end without being as all or nothing like relics were. I could easily see something like this adapted to XIV as a more midcore option, with all equipment slots given multiple tasks to eventually culminate in a pretty good item. I'd also personally love unique, ability augmenting materia to come from the process to give us better ways to customize and stylize our combat preferences. Or maybe something more like merits without being so insipid about category caps. In the end, I'll just stick to there being a giant open world out there that more could be done in, to make it feel more alive than just funneling people into yet more raids or dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Lewtskie

It's not a good quote though, it's a blissfully ignorant quote. Their "golden goose" provides more than they need to feed it. It's become a perfect model for them and they see absolutely no reason to change it unless called for.

Hate against the idea of 'us vs them' as much as you want, it won't go away. They want something that isn't being included. They don't want the thing that is; it's something that is challenging what they want out of the game. Getting what you want comes at a cost of someone else's wants because not every little thing can be implemented at once, altogether, for every person.

Even were it a large scale team with dedicated groups developing content, content will be staggered, and it won't always be some perfect 50/50 split of what you want and what someone else wants. One side is always going to get more of what they want than the other. And the side that has more people are going to be favored more because there are more to provide to, who in turn earn more revenue.

This all being on top of there was and always has been a specific demographic this game was created and catered for. If you're not under that demographic then you're immediately always going to be at a disadvantage to getting what you want.

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Yes take that "golden goose" Quote completely out of context, what he is alluding too is the fact that resource is being allocated to other departments within square. We the players are not getting the return on the investment we made, so why shouldn't people speak up about it? and ok I get it its a business. but even so, Yoshi P himself has stated there is a lot of things that he would like too do with this game but he isn't given the amount of resources from higher up and a lot of his team and funds are reduced and allocated to other projects. Hence why this game is filled with a lot copy pasta content, you say its what works, but for how long will that be? You can only repackage the same content over and over again until things start too ware thin, but only the test of time will tell.

Also no one is asking for immediate change, nor are we asking for the games foundation to be pulled root and stem, and built from the ground. Topics like this has been a thing for many years on this forum and others like reddit, gamefaqs. discussing new ideas and implementation within the community is a big part of an MMO.


The people here on the other side straight up boast about having more content then they know what too even do with. When people brag about how they have more content then their monthly sub fee can keep up with, how is it insane or unrealistic to say "ok they seem set, is it possible to have more resource allocated to another sector?"

Yes this is a casual game,no one is demanding FFXIV become FFXI. You can have divergent content whilst still prevent detraction from the core audience.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

Really?

Where people who couldn't get an item were BENCHED simply to due to poor RNG, completely unrelated to their ability.

The introduction of massive titantforging everywhere, so you and your raid partner can have massively different item levels, even though you did the same content?

Where the reputation rewards were placed in a lootbox that had such a low chance of giving you the item that you do do the same quests forever, and never earn it?

The introduction of a new area, with weekly quests so barren that today they can all be done in a day, but with time gating, took place for players over the span of months, and in the process, delayed their ability to fly?

Argus - one of the most hated zones ever created; and the newly gained ability to fly - was disallowed?

Professions where progression was also based on RNG, so only something like 10% of miners ever got everything three-starred just because the quest never proced for them, no matter the time investment.

Suramar questline was there at the beginning, nothing like that ever repeated.

People remember the beginning of Legion, class halls, artifacts, and forget the legendary RNG, the horror of the added zones, and the fact that the playerbase steadily decreased from start to finish. Legion looks good next to BFA and WoD, but it looks horrible compared to pretty much all other expansions. At best on par with MoP and Cata.

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Obviously you're not a fan of RNG and that''s fine.

On par with MoP and Cata however? That's a very brave comparison and one I've never heard. Most people will disagree.

You're absolutely nitpicking the things you didn't like disregarding all the good stuff.

Do you know how ridiculous it sounds to say "Yeah but the playerbase steadily decreased from start to finish for the expansionnnn". Wow gee its almost like players play a game less that they've completed towards the end. I've never heard of players unsubbing towards the end of an expansion. Oh never.

Please - this is just senseless bashing.

You know what FFXIV should avoid ? Being another WoW clone.

Another problem by expecting even more end-game outside of the fact the staff don't have the ressources or would have to drain from other things people expect is who will do it. How much ressources it will cost for how many player to actualy bother with it. Keep in mind it have to worth it.


And please, don't be childish, higher up detainging the key for more budget couldn't give less of a sh*t of what happen on the forum, they want number to roll up and use as much money as they can on other project that will bring far more money than make a little portion of a MMO playerbase occupied two more weeks for close to no yield.

I'd be glad we had even more content, but I'd rather not sacrifice even more of what I have fun with for even more things I won't even bother touch. Gosh, we have already less and less new dungeon every patch for the sake of "hard" trash niche grind.

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Originally Posted by Klb600

Yes take that "golden goose" Quote completely out of context, what he is alluding too is the fact that resource is being allocated to other departments within square. We the players are not getting the return on the investment we made, so why shouldn't people speak up about it? and ok I get it its a business. but even so, Yoshi P himself has stated there is a lot of things that he would like too do with this game but he isn't given the amount of resources from higher up and a lot of his team and funds are reduced and allocated to other projects. Hence why this game is filled with a lot copy pasta content, you say its what works, but for how long will that be? You can only repackage the same content over and over again until things start too ware thin, but only the test of time will tell.

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I replied to the comment to the extent of the context you gave. I'm not blind, I read what he said and I know that their funding goes into other projects at SE. And I gave you the reason why they won't funnel more money back into the game: because it does indeed work. People been speaking up about it for years, it's nothing new, and they'll keep speaking up about it. Yoshi will also keep pushing to get more for the game, this won't change. The investment into XIV has been at an all-time high in regard to Shadowbringers in terms of guest development, media advertising and promotion. SE can and will invest more when they see it necessary, but that's always going to be at odds with us because we're always gonna want more than what they care to offer. Once come the time when this game isn't funneling back as much as it has been and been worn down, SE will likely scrap it and move to the next thing. This has been what XIV has been for them since ARR. ARR itself was just a chance at breaking even at a destructive loss that was 1.0, but just by chance proved more successful than they thought, but it's not going to be their flagship. Even XI, as successful as it was, was never a flagship. Some decent advertisement and support, sure, but it was never part of their "main" line-up.

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Originally Posted by Klb600

Also no one is asking for immediate change, nor are we asking for the games foundation to be pulled root and stem, and built from the ground. Topics like this has been a thing for many years on this forum and others like reddit, gamefaqs. discussing new ideas and implementation within the community is a big part of an MMO.

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I don't know where this came from. I never insinuated immediate change and the fact people been going at this for years is obvious, so I don't know what sort of response you want from this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Klb600

The people here on the other side straight up boast about having more content then they know what too even do with. When people brag about how they have more content then their monthly sub fee can keep up with, how is it insane or unrealistic to say "ok they seem set, is it possible to have more resource allocated to another sector?"

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That sounds like an exaggeration; on their part, not yours. If anyone legitimately says they have too much content to do, then they came in late and haven't been playing up to date. This is for any side of the -core spectrum. And this is confidently saying this knowing this game is catered to people with limited time to play each day/week. And anyone coming in late is expected to have a large backlog. Current content though, not a chance.

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Originally Posted by Klb600

Yes this is a casual game,no one is demanding FFXIV become FFXI. You can have divergent content whilst still prevent detraction from the core audience.

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Again, didn't suggest it was or were or needs to be. you CAN have divergent content, yes, buuuut like I said, it's not going to be at an even split and one form of content is going to get more support each patch then another. Someone, somewhere is always going to be dissatisfied with a patch; whether the same person or a different one, because the skew of content will always be different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Klb600

Yes take that "golden goose" Quote completely out of context, what he is alluding too is the fact that resource is being allocated to other departments within square. We the players are not getting the return on the investment we made, so why shouldn't people speak up about it? and ok I get it its a business. but even so, Yoshi P himself has stated there is a lot of things that he would like too do with this game but he isn't given the amount of resources from higher up and a lot of his team and funds are reduced and allocated to other projects.

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Honestly, putting aside the "casual vs hardcore" and the rest of this thread for a moment, everyone who plays and loves XIV should be upset at this. Not to say I don't want to play other games, but it's actually infuriating this game could have a lot more to it but just doesn't thanks to the other departments leeching. inb4 "but its not yoshi's money its squares money!!! AND ITS OKAY BECAUSE ITS GOING TO 7 REMASTER!!!! 7 IS BEST!!!"

Yeah, nah. Don't get me wrong, I love FFXIV how it currently is. But just the fact we could have more overall content for every group/demographic and don't because FFXIV is just being given the bare minimum to function instead of a decent amount to grow for its entire player base is downright disrespectful imo. I can almost guarantee there'd be a lot bigger fuss from this community if the game siphoning from XIV was an XIII remaster instead. Maybe without VII's legacy shrouding the problems with it, we'd be able to make enough noise to change things.