How would an optional, official parser be toxic?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dirwen

How do you know if it's your computer or the internet that is the problem? I always see myself dodging mechs but still get hit so there must be a delay and unsure if its my computer or the net.

---

Resource Monitor records your latency. When I see my latency spike suddenly to 300~400ms, that's my Internet. Not my computer. I can check my CPU and GPU temps anytime I want; they don't spike high even when I've been gaming all day and remain constant when the game is active. Sure it's hotter when I'm gaming compared to when my laptop is idle, but that's the case with any computer. The temps aren't critically high. It's easy to tell if you know where to look.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

And this is why FFlogs is Toxic.

---

But joining parties for content that you cannot even perform averagely in, and just expecting people to be okay with it, isn't toxic?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

And this is why FFlogs is Toxic.

---

So hitting a wall, because noone knows what's going on, is better then excluding people who are not willing/able to contribute to the team or learn the fight?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

And this is why FFlogs is Toxic.

---

Toxic for excluding people out of content that they are not ready for and will just be a burden to the group? Toxic for excluding players that just want to get carried in savage/ex? I wonder why are those that expect to be carried are not considered toxic. I wish I had taken the time to check FFlogs of those that join my o10s aim to clear last weekend, then I wouldn't have wasted so much time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Resource Monitor records your latency. When I see my latency spike suddenly to 300~400ms, that's my Internet. Not my computer. I can check my CPU and GPU temps anytime I want; they don't spike high even when I've been gaming all day and remain constant when the game is active. Sure it's hotter when I'm gaming compared to when my laptop is idle, but that's the case with any computer. The temps aren't critically high. It's easy to tell if you know where to look.

---

Thanks to you I learned about Resource Monitor. Now I can use it to check when the next time I start the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Why? If you're joining somebody else's party and you don't meet their expectations (and we know there are varied expectations, like being a Lala, a SAM, etc.), they have the right to kick you out of their group. If you join their party, and you are holding them back or causing the fight to go on longer than necessary, then they have a right to kick you. That's not toxicity. You just don't meet their expectations.

---

I'll consider FFlogs toxic until it becomes opt in rather than opt out. You've no evidence they are holding you back you've just looked at website they probably don't know exists or don't want to use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I'll consider FFlogs toxic until it becomes opt in rather than opt out. You've no evidence they are holding you back you've just looked at website they probably don't know exists or don't want to use.

---

Opt in wouldn't change anything. Exluding people would exclude people without parses nontheless.

The general question is: Why is it toxic to say someone is playing below a needed personal skill level but not toxic to sneak into content who is beyond your own skill level and experience?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I'll consider FFlogs toxic until it becomes opt in rather than opt out. You've no evidence they are holding you back you've just looked at website they probably don't know exists or don't want to use.

---

Generally, though, when someone with green/grays joins a party, their performance well matches what you've seen on the site. I do sometimes check when people join PFs I'm in, and they usually do a pretty good job of living up to what their logs show. And this is for any percentile, not just the low ones. Having a few low parses but several average or above average ones is one thing; having nothing but low is another.

I consider people who try to sneak into farm parties or weekly 2-chest parties that have no idea what they're doing in the content pretty inconsiderate. Some people may be okay with carrying them, but not everyone. And not everyone should be expected to, either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dirwen

Thanks to you I learned about Resource Monitor. Now I can use it to check when the next time I start the game.

---

Not a problem. To open it, I generally do it through Task Manager > Performance tab. There should be an option to open it at the bottom beneath all the pretty graphs showing your performance/usage. TCP Connections will show you your latency to any applications that are using your network. Just look for FFXIV.exe; there are usually two entries for it. The first one will be your latency to the server.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

I'll consider FFlogs toxic until it becomes opt in rather than opt out. You've no evidence they are holding you back you've just looked at website they probably don't know exists or don't want to use.

---

Really? Is that your only reason? Because it's opt out? By that logic, the Duty Recorder is toxic too because it requires an opt-in from all 8 party members. It's not toxic to exclude under-performing party members. From what I've seen and heard, this seems to be one of the only big MMOs where people coddle the weak links because they got kicked. I find that pretty insulting. If a person sucks, they suck? Why sugarcoat it? If people don't like being held up to that standard, then stop joining PF parties and make friends and do it with them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Really? Is that your only reason? Because it's opt out? By that logic, the Duty Recorder is toxic too because it requires an opt-in from all 8 party members. It's not toxic to exclude under-performing party members. From what I've seen and heard, this seems to be one of the only big MMOs where people coddle the weak links because they got kicked. I find that pretty insulting. If a person sucks, they suck? Why sugarcoat it? If people don't like being held up to that standard, then stop joining PF parties and make friends and do it with them.

---

To be honest I'd rather play a game where people are nice and patient with each other than one people just want to be nasty to each other. Given the language you used in you own post I think you just answered you won question on how parses would be toxic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

To be honest I'd rather play a game where people are nice and patient with each other than one people just want to be nasty to each other. Given the language you used in you own post I think you just answered you won question on how parses would be toxic.

---

Heh...I suppose it would be toxic, if somebody is incapable of handling criticism. There's a difference between that, y'know? Criticism, and outright harassment. But it seems that lately, too many people have started to associate criticism/advice/etc. with harassment.

What do you mean about a game where people are nice and patient? And you are playing such a game. Just because people are advocating for parsers doesn't suddenly make the niceties and patience go away in most groups. Nor it is toxic if a person who is not as good as they think they are joins another person's PF and holds the rest of the party back in a Savage raid. While current, Savage raids are not really a place to kick back and BS around unless you're with known people or the majority is fine with it. Telling somebody 'hey, you forgot to leave up heavy thrust', or 'the boss leaves the battlefield at this time, don't waste your Aetherflow for the 3 seconds you'll be able to use it' or even 'can you please use defensive cooldowns for this tank buster' are not toxic. Yet the way some people complain about it, you'd think they'd have been personally insulted.

If you want a game where it's like that 100% of the time all the time...well, I dunno what to tell you. Even Roblox has toxicity. But if you find it, good luck. When you have a farm party for Suzaku Ex, and the description says 'Healer LB3' strat, it's time to admit that there is a problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

To be honest I'd rather play a game where people are nice and patient with each other than one people just want to be nasty to each other. Given the language you used in you own post I think you just answered you won question on how parses would be toxic.

---

So let's review somethings here:

-kicking silently: toxic.
-Kicking with an explanation: toxic
-Not kicking but explaining what's going wrong without openly mentioning parsers: toxic
-Not kicking but explaining what's going wrong while mentioning parsers: toxic
-Try to be nice and patient without parsers: toxic
-Try to be nice and patient with parsers: toxic

So I guess it really doesn't matter because it's clear that at the end of the day, you're far more likely to be labeled toxic for virtually anything not because of parsers but because you were supposed to accommodate silently instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SenorPatty

So let's review somethings here:

-kicking silently: toxic.
-Kicking with an explanation: toxic
-Not kicking but explaining what's going wrong without openly mentioning parsers: toxic
-Not kicking but explaining what's going wrong while mentioning parsers: toxic
-Try to be nice and patient without parsers: toxic
-Try to be nice and patient with parsers: toxic

So I guess it really doesn't matter because it's clear that at the end of the day, you're far more likely to be labeled toxic for virtually anything not because of parsers but because you were supposed to accommodate silently instead.

---

If you breathe you're toxic.

On this post i will speak about what i see on wow. I am sorry i dont like doing long post only speaking about wow (or other game than FFXIV). But i think it is the best way to explain my PoV there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

It is same as the WoW Addon, even though they don't support it, they also don't restrict it, therefore it is more accepted to drop "under performing" players and benching others.

---

Just, i would like to understand why it is toxic.
Except particulary problematics players, never saw a 1 wipe = kick time". Saw it with people that said "i know strategy" and failed to basic mechanics (so he lied and the run was intended to people knowing mechanics ! ).

Most of time, we have to see 2-3 wipe before a raidlead decide to begin the kicking of "bad" people (even on DPS and on mechanics ). But we speak heroic/mythic raid run, where we want people to perform.

Also, in normal run (as hard as story mode) we can see it... but with "toxic bad players" because failing in NM... 1 time ok, but more...

For LFR, yes, sometime there is kick, when we get 4-5 time the buff from wipe, the parsers says some are REALLY to low DPS (close to tanks... or even lower!) or are unable to follow strategy ( we speak about a difficulty where strategy are really basics !)
I already saw, on LFR, some of the good DPS people being kicked because they were dumbass you know. (and strangely, just kicking them made the run better after...)

BUT for me, toxicity is "elitists" players that ask you to be perfect because he is (in fact he thinks he is). But Toxic players are also those who hopes to be carried on the content by other players.

We have to "live" together. yes, we have to admit "low playing" people with us. I never waited a sprout icon to help a guy who looks newbie on MMORPG. Also, even from my own guild, if i thought the guy was not able, for now, to do what we wait from him in a specific content, i said to just not come. Because when we are 8 to try on any content, getting slowed by only one guy is realyl frustrating for the others. Finally i always helped even the worst player of my guilds, but later... 1 month, 2 month, when all get enough stuff and knowledge about the fight to make it smooth with 7 people and 1 deadweight.
I speak "myself" and so speak about my life, because i dont want to say "most pro parser people thinks like this" but i clearly think i am not alone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

And this is why FFlogs is Toxic.

---

So what? you want SE to close this site? they cant.
SE could block ACT/FFXIVapp (and other parsing program) and they don't do (maybe not so easy, or prefer to let a little parsing exists for theorycrafters, etc etc etc).

But fun fact, on wow, we are on the 3rd week of the new raid on wow, the last boss in heroic mode become common to be killed, but not all already achieved it.
There is numerous party in the PF, and i did see, in 3 week only 5 party forming with "checking warcraft logs" (and if i dont do mistake, it is 2 people doing this). I am not even sure they gets better results than other team (i think to the one i was in this week, with a good raidlead... people heared, obey and all was smooth, he didnt even ask the proof of last boss kills just the boss before him that are clearly easier)

The "toxic wow players" dont recruit due to logs and FFXIV some does?
I think because wow dont get all those discussion about toxicity of parsers. Some people stays in content where Duty Finder is (heroic dongeon, the LFR) where they rarely get matters due to their lack of DPS (and not all are "bad" !) and others go to the Party Finder, go in front of the raid entry, run with a group of people, with one guy as leader that can decide who he will kick. Some are dumb, some are really good guys, we all know the risks when joining. And the funniest, a raidlead who kicks "stupidly" generally regret it, because many people will complain about this and get away from the party.

On WoW we dont think "we have the holy mission to carry bad people". Only those who wants this does this. (and when raid is well cleared by most players, we see some PF forming clearly to help other people) Those who doesnt care just dont. And people wanting to be carried whine or train to be at least "good enough"...

But hum... and if great part of those people waiting to be carried found what they wanted on Final Fantasy XIV finally ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

To be honest I'd rather play a game where people are nice and patient with each other than one people just want to be nasty to each other. Given the language you used in you own post I think you just answered you won question on how parses would be toxic.

---

Yeah I wish everyone was nicer and more patient, then you wouldn't have to look at FFlogs to tell if someone was up to the content, you wouldn't have to parse to know you could rely on your teammates. People would be nice enough to only join parties at the level they can perform, and would have the patience to take the time to learn and get better for parties with a higher performance required.

And in case anyone did join a party they weren't prepared for, all would be well because they would nicely bow out, thanking everyone for their patience with the wipes thy caused.

Literally everything would be better.

I agree logs should definitely be opt in and not opt out. I've said that before. I've hidden all my data on there for a multitude of reasons.

1 being. Yes I parse but I don't parse often enough or religiously enough to upload it all to logs thus any parses of me on there are incredibly sporadic and random and not an accurate representation of my ability.

Second being like many players I'm tired of the endless treadmill grind replacing trash gear with trash gear with trash gear and as a result many of my jobs are behind on the I level. My mains only just scraped into alpha at i356 none of which is represented on logs so people would typically look at that and assume my ilevel is higher and thus my performance looks worse than it is. Especially with the speed at which power creep and stat growth happens more recently.

It's not a bad tool when used correctly but I do find to many people treat it as gospel fact when there's some rather huge margins for error in logs for things that aren't recorded. A badly positioned boss for 1 example can have a significant impact on your uptime and dps. Or badly placed aoes on the ground for another.

Tank pulls too much and dies or loses aggro: "Jeez you suck tank come on pick up your slack"
Healer doesn't heal enough and everyone dies as a result: "Jeez healer can you please do your job already?"
DPS doesn't do enough damage so fights take three times as long to finish: "Jeez guys stop criticising me you bunch of elitists lmao you expect me to play perfect like you no lifers?"

If everyone avoided doing any of the things that these crybullies deem toxic we would all still be stuck on Shinryu normal.

You can't parse, even when you're keeping it to yourself.

You can't criticize anyone for anything ever (except parsing or criticizing someone else, at that point feel free to punch them as they are basically Hitler.)

Basically say hi when you get in (not "hi guys" since you can't assume their genders) and thank everyone when you clear. If you speak between those times it is toxic.

Or, as an alternative, ignore the snowflakes and watch them melt :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dirwen

I don't understand how people can play online FF on console. I learned my lesson from FF11 when i started out on PS2. Console will get outdated while the game will keep going on the years and you will be left behind as the updates will not work well on your old console.

---

It's a really simple process actually.

1. You go out and buy a PS4 with a controller.

2. You go out and buy Final Fantasy XIV: Stormblood. You install the game onto your PS4.

3. You sign up, pay for a subscription, and do all of that fun Mogstation stuff with registering the game on your service account.

4. You boot up the game.

5. You play the game.

Note: I've been playing XIV on a PS4 for over five years. I started around the time HW just introduced the Gordias fights, it's not going to get outdated any time soon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

And this is why FFlogs is Toxic.

---

And this is why we have a toxic environment around parsers.....because of people not being able to handle the truth about their numbers at all and cry foul the minute no one gives them a gold star sticker for effort.

You don't get invited into Savage parties if you can't perform, likewise, you don't win the spelling bee if you can't spell the word correctly and missed one letter.

Quote:

---

You've no evidence they are holding you back you've just looked at website they probably don't know exists or don't want to use.

---

This is like saying 2+2=4 on a calculator is wrong and that it's not enough of a direct and factual evidence to be used in order to say that yes, two plus two equals four. ACT is literally a calculator and FFlogs merely just translates that data into something we can understand on a screen while doing the math for us and separating it into different sections and categories.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

And this is why FFlogs is Toxic.

---

Because I have expectations when I clearly label my party "farm" or "O9S weekly clear"? How dare I want people to know how to play their parties in Savage!

FFlogs is basically a resume. Of course, you just walk into a job, sport or any group activity, claim you know everything and said group must accept this or they're horrible, toxic, people, yes? In fact, let's compare! If you were on a Hockey team and needed a fill in for an upcoming tournament, but said fill in couldn't couldn't pass the puck, repeatedly got deked out and essentially couldn't keep up with the skill level of the team. Would you be totes okay spending several hours being "nice and patient" with them? Would you be annoyed they signed up in the first place, knowing the team expectations being woefully ill-prepared for them?

Bear in mind, if you show them any video evidence on what they're doing wrong—even if it would be a clear help—you're a toxic, horrible, person.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

To be honest I'd rather play a game where people are nice and patient with each other than one people just want to be nasty to each other. Given the language you used in you own post I think you just answered you won question on how parses would be toxic.

---

But it isn't toxic a Samurai doing sub 4k sneaked into a Savage weekly and clearly have no idea what they're doing, thereby wasting everyone else's time? How about a White Mage who can't properly heal? Must be my fault for not staying in Tank Stance the whole fight because how dare I expect to be healed consistently?

Why are you doing farm parties in pf with randoms though? If you can't get 8 people together to do it, you need to spend less time griping about carries and more time making friends. The raiders in this game are odd that way; no one expects to speedkill stuff over and over in the hardest content in the game with randoms. Yet in this game they complain when it happens. In most other games, if you want to do this you do it with a guild specifically designed for endgame raiding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Why are you doing farm parties in pf with randoms though?

---

......Because that's what Party Finder is for? How dare us use a feature in the game made specifically for creating farm parties! How dare us use a feature that has the ability to set actual party requirements and expect people to read them!

Quote:

---

If you can't get 8 people together to do it, you need to spend less time griping about carries and more time making friends.

---

How dare us try and make new friends using a feature in the game made solely to socially interact with other random people! We could say the same thing about you in that you gripe nonstop about raiders and not being able to do harder content while not wishing to put the effort in doing so.

Quote:

---

The raiders in this game are odd that way; no one expects to speedkill stuff over and over in the hardest content in the game with randoms.

---

.....Raiders creating farm parties aren't looking for speedkills, they're looking to farm content over and over to get either a specific mount, music scroll, weapon, crafting item, etc. That's what farm parties are for. Casual players with your mindsets are the oddballs. How dare us for wanting to make parties with other raiders from different servers to do content with!

Quote:

---

Yet in this game they complain when it happens. In most other games, if you want to do this you do it with a guild specifically designed for endgame raiding.

---

Farming Tsukuyomi EX 99 times for totems or Suzaku counts as endgame raiding now...? Please Riyah, just stay out of conversations you have no business poking your nose in except to throw you own personal bias around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Why are you doing farm parties in pf with randoms though? If you can't get 8 people together to do it, you need to spend less time griping about carries and more time making friends. The raiders in this game are odd that way; no one expects to speedkill stuff over and over in the hardest content in the game with randoms. Yet in this game they complain when it happens. In most other games, if you want to do this you do it with a guild specifically designed for endgame raiding.

---

Why are bads going into roulettes by themselves or sneaking into farm parties, when they could run it solely with friends and not ruin someone's run?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Why are you doing farm parties in pf with randoms though? If you can't get 8 people together to do it, you need to spend less time griping about carries and more time making friends. The raiders in this game are odd that way; no one expects to speedkill stuff over and over in the hardest content in the game with randoms. Yet in this game they complain when it happens. In most other games, if you want to do this you do it with a guild specifically designed for endgame raiding.

---

They complain when they set up dog farm parties or weekly 2-chest parties in PF, and people join who have absolutely no idea what they're doing on either their chosen job or in the content the party is running. Is this a crime? Is it a crime to ask that people know what they're doing when they join farm parties? To not lie about their experience? To not waste the time of 7 other people? I can't speak for you, but I don't like being lied to, nor having my time wasted when I'm trying to farm for a mount or get a weekly clear in. I don't like having my time wasted period.

I have plenty of friends who do Extremes, but we aren't always on at the same time. My static actually did Suzaku on an off-day for weapons, but I was unable to join due to real-life responsibilities. And they've offered to help me get my weapon for progression, but not all of them are available outside of scheduled raid times, and we'd rather spend that time progging Savage. Not clearing Suzaku Ex. So we will have to probably pick up a random or two. Especially if no one we know is available when we decide to do the content.

Hence why we Party Finder. But, again: is it a crime to expect some level of competency - a level that the content itself asks for - from people who join farm groups or weekly 2-chest runs? These aren't dungeons where you can get by not know what you're doing, or get by by eating all the AOEs, or get by not know the basics of your job. Especially now with a new tier; not everyone is geared enough to carry a weak link in some of the Savage floors, and, honestly, we shouldn't be having to carry weak links anyways.

People expect competency in the content because the content requires it. And they have every right to complain when someone shows up that is clearly not competent at the skill level the content requires, and just expects the other 7 people to deal with their short-comings. Like the RDM I once had in a weekly V6S party I joined back when I didn't have a static during Sigmascape: snuck into the party never having cleared, claimed to have "seen enrage" when we get into the instance and see the bonus message, and then spent the entire lockout dying to every mechanic (truly a feat in Chadarnook) to the point where both healers just left him on the ground for the last third of the fight. Because he was too much of a strain on their MP to raise and then die again before his Weakness/Brink fell off.

But, you know. The raiders who tell people like this to please learn the content/their jobs before they venture into Savage are the toxic, mean ones. Not the person who just lied and wasted 7 other people's time and resources.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Why are you doing farm parties in pf with randoms though? If you can't get 8 people together to do it, you need to spend less time griping about carries and more time making friends. The raiders in this game are odd that way; no one expects to speedkill stuff over and over in the hardest content in the game with randoms. Yet in this game they complain when it happens. In most other games, if you want to do this you do it with a guild specifically designed for endgame raiding.

---

So... if you want to get a farm party that does kills fast (to do as much as kill possible during the time you allow for this farm) you do it with people you know, and not in PF.
If you cant get 7 friends to do it, so you HAVE TO go in PF to recruit ANYONE, maybe some you will have to carry and then build friendship... But with this new friend, you cant do the next primal farm. A friend is not "a good player" it is "a guy i like" ...

PF is a tool to help people to find each other. And then you set your preference. Even more when you have a target. And funfact, they finally can become friends... those you had in your interserv LS...
Yes you could also do friends in people with less focus on PvE content, but nothing will force you to take them for your farm.

Not because you dont have enough friend to do a content, i have to lower the expetations for the team? accept people that will maybe create some wipe?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

......Because that's what Party Finder is for? How dare us use a feature in the game made specifically for creating farm parties! How dare us use a feature that has the ability to set actual party requirements and expect people to read them!

---

Do you not get that if you try and do any hard content with randoms, you are going to get these issues? Do you think a parser is going to change this? It won't. Farming 99 tokens, yeesh, like its easier to do this with people whom you don't know, can leave at a moments notice, can vary widely in skill even if they use a parser, can be argumentative, and more. You think its a parser issue when its a random issue, and there's never going to be a time when pugs are going to be "solved" because we have a parser. Smart people build statics and do content in them; the raiders in this game are trying to fix something that can't be fixed, when the fix is to do content with people you trust.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aerlana

If you cant get 7 friends to do it, so you HAVE TO go in PF to recruit ANYONE

---

what on earth would you guys ever do if the endgame were based around 24 man raids? If you can't get 7 other people as friends in an mmo to do raid content, there's something wrong. It's not like you need to spend 4 hour farming a pop and two hours fighting the pop boss or anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Do you not get that if you try and do any hard content with randoms, you are going to get these issues? Do you think a parser is going to change this? It won't. Farming 99 tokens, yeesh, like its easier to do this with people whom you don't know, can leave at a moments notice, can vary widely in skill even if they use a parser, can be argumentative, and more. You think its a parser issue when its a random issue, and there's never going to be a time when pugs are going to be "solved" because we have a parser. Smart people build statics and do content in them; the raiders in this game are trying to fix something that can't be fixed, when the fix is to do content with people you trust.

---

Or the randoms could have a shred of decency and not join content they aren't ready for just expecting the rest of the party to carry them? Just a thought.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Do you not get that if you try and do any hard content with randoms, you are going to get these issues? Do you think a parser is going to change this? It won't.

---

And believe it or not....but, I expect most randoms to have a basic reading comprehension level in order to play this game where "if you're not prepared for this content, don't click the Join button for this party, you doofus". Do you not get that? Is reading literally an extra step and effort now for people in this game?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Farming 99 tokens, yeesh, like its easier to do this with people whom you don't know, can leave at a moments notice, can vary widely in skill even if they use a parser, can be argumentative, and more.

---

I had 99 Tsuku tokens farmed after 7 weeks through Party Finder on late nights with randoms, sometimes friends helped, sometimes they couldn't. People have lives outside of this game Riyah, you're acting like it's unheard of that people can't be a ready at a moment's notice when you personally want to do something. Stop trying to find ways to nitpick with these weak excuses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Smart people build statics and do content in them; the raiders in this game are trying to fix something that can't be fixed, when the fix is to do content with people you trust.

---

And smart people read the party finder description before joining the party. Smart people also read their tooltips. A shame that most of the player base doesn't do this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

This isn't about ACT, this is about parsers.

---

ACT is a parser....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Or the randoms could have a shred of decency and not join content they aren't ready for just expecting the rest of the party to carry them? Just a thought.

---

You rely on randoms, you take what you can get. There's no way the devs can solve this by adding a parser, because most people who do endgame already use or can easily use them. If you don't like it, don't rely on randoms, and don't raid if "real life issues" make it so you can't show up frequently. Go build a cross server linkshell, or a server fc full of enough competent people that they can cover for the times when real life does intrude. If you try and force a fix through dev means, it's probably going to backfire; it may keep the bads out, but it may also end up keeping the people who would try and improve out too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

People have lives outside of this game Riyah,

---

sheesh, this game has the least time-demanding endgame of any mmo out there. Schedule your farms for one night a week for two or three hours; if people can't make it to that, they probably should consider if raiding is what they want to do. Because in other games there would be none of this, you get kicked if you don't show up on time enough. And you make sure you schedule things so people can plan for it. If you consistently need to pug stuff, that's a people failure; you need to talk to the people who aren't showing up and see what's up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Or the randoms could have a shred of decency and not join content they aren't ready for just expecting the rest of the party to carry them? Just a thought.

---

Nope, clearly it's your fault for creating the PF in the first place. You're overestimating the playerbase's ability to read requirements and understand that if they don't pull their weight, you will disband.

So everyone should static up and never use the PF ever again. Don't even look at it, don't even--HEY, I SAID DON'T LOOK-- don't even mention it. Instead, you should expect everyone to have the same time availability for all content and that they can only run stuff with you by dropping everything they were doing in-game or in real life and come at your beck and call.

EDIT: woops, almost forgot to add a smiley face so it shows that I was not being toxic. Where are my manners? :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Or the randoms could have a shred of decency and not join content they aren't ready for just expecting the rest of the party to carry them? Just a thought.

---

Don't you understand, if I'm feeling lazy or don't feel like trying you're obligated to carry me! (I'm joking of course)

I really wish SE could change their stance on parsers, I mean they know people use them. I know they don't want people having their numbers mentioned, but I have to ask if I'm in a raid, and my damage is too low, wouldn't it only be fair if someone told me? I'd rather be told I'm not ready and to work on my damage and leave, than to be carried because I didn't earn the clear that way. I don't see someone telling me my damage is low or bad harassment, but maybe I'm just missing something?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You rely on randoms, you take what you can get.

---

No we don't. We kick underperformers, not carry them. You can waste time carrying if you want, but if I make a PF I'm going to pick and choose who stays, that's my right as the person who started the group.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Do you not get that if you try and do any hard content with randoms, you are going to get these issues? Do you think a parser is going to change this? It won't. Farming 99 tokens, yeesh, like its easier to do this with people whom you don't know, can leave at a moments notice, can vary widely in skill even if they use a parser, can be argumentative, and more. You think its a parser issue when its a random issue, and there's never going to be a time when pugs are going to be "solved" because we have a parser. Smart people build statics and do content in them; the raiders in this game are trying to fix something that can't be fixed, when the fix is to do content with people you trust.

---

Actually, it's quite easy if you get decently competent people. No, that doesn't mean orange caliber WF raiders. Even an average player is perfectly fine, provided they're putting forth an effort and contributing at a decent rate, i.e., a Samurai doing in the ballpark of 6k. Funny enough, I pugged Tsukiyomi EX with four randoms and three friends. We wound up doing parse runs and trying to phase her early and skip the second half of phase two. Four randoms and we're pulling meme shit because everyone knew what they were doing, we're friendly and contributed. Walked away with a dozen or so clears in only a couple hours. Likewise, I met my BFF in a random party whom I now raid with. If I followed your sagely, totally not bias at all, advice, I wouldn't have either of these experiences. I suppose it's just pure toxic of me to put in an actual effort.

Here's the difference, Riyah. When I started tanking Shinryu EX, I joined learning parties despite having cleared multiple times. I even had the dog. Why was I in learning parties? Because I didn't know the fight from a tank perspective and wanted to brush up on mechanics so I wouldn't be a liability. Meanwhile, in a Tsukiyomi EX party, I have a Samurai doing a 1,000 DPS less than me despite having better gear. But when I mention our damage is low, he calls me shit.

So... who's the toxic person in this scenario? I'll give you one guess who had a magical abacus and who didn't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You rely on randoms, you take what you can get. There's no way the devs can solve this by adding a parser, because most people who do endgame already use or can easily use them. If you don't like it, don't rely on randoms, and don't raid if "real life issues" make it so you can't show up frequently. Go build a cross server linkshell, or a server fc full of enough competent people that they can cover for the times when real life does intrude. If you try and force a fix through dev means, it's probably going to backfire; it may keep the bads out, but it may also end up keeping the people who would try and improve out too.

---

People who try and improve will continue doing so through learning parties. Contrary to popular belief, raiders are pretty chill if you're putting forth an effort. I've partied with World First raiders and most of them have all been quite helpful. The only people a parse keeps out are lazy, inconsiderate people who feel entitled to your time. If someone's too intimated to improve because parsers are now okay publicly, they have no business being in farm or clear parties until they're ready. How do you they'll feel getting kicked silently, with no explanation whatsoever on what they're doing wrong?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You rely on randoms, you take what you can get.

---

This is a sad mindset to have. Why should we have to settle for the healer that can't actually keep a party alive in Suzaku Ex? Or the tank that can't hold aggro on her? Or the DPS that can't do more than 3,000 DPS? Or any party member that dies to every mechanic she has?

Quote:

---

There's no way the devs can solve this by adding a parser, because most people who do endgame already use or can easily use them. If you don't like it, don't rely on randoms, and don't raid if "real life issues" make it so you can't show up frequently.

---

Ah, yes. How dare I be a full-time student trying to get a degree, and how dare I be unwilling to drop my classes at a moment's notice to farm content outside of scheduled raid times! How dare my other static mates not call out of work to help me farm a mount! How dare they drop their social lives on Friday nights to not help me get a weapon! How dare my friends not log in the second I demand it so we can do Suzaku Ex! How dare I not do that! How dare any of the raiders in this game not do that!

Give me a break, Riyah. You don't have an actual argument here.

Quote:

---

Go build a cross server linkshell, or a server fc full of enough competent people that they can cover for the times when real life does intrude. If you try and force a fix through dev means, it's probably going to backfire; it may keep the bads out, but it may also end up keeping the people who would try and improve out too.

---

Already have a CWLS for this, thank you. Sucks you can only have one though, because I can't invite the other raider friends I have that are in other CWLS already. I also have Discord servers where I can ask for help if a group needs a fill in. But again - this may shock you, Riyah - sometimes people aren't available at the drop of a hat to join a farm party because they have lives outside the game.

If people want to try and improve, the place for that is NOT a farm party. You don't try to learn your 70 rotation in Suzaku Ex. You don't practice an opener in V9S.


I suppose my earlier questions to you were answered: clearly it is a crime to expect competency in farm parties. Clearly it is a crime to expect randoms to know the content and know their rotations, and to not sneak into groups lying about their experience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

sheesh, this game has the least time-demanding endgame of any mmo out there. Schedule your farms for one night a week for two or three hours; if people can't make it to that, they probably should consider if raiding is what they want to do. Because in other games there would be none of this, you get kicked if you don't show up on time enough. And you make sure you schedule things so people can plan for it. If you consistently need to pug stuff, that's a people failure; you need to talk to the people who aren't showing up and see what's up.

---

My static was meeting 4 days a week when we were progging UwU. We upped that to 5 days some weeks, especially towards the end of 4.3. We've still been putting in extra days since 4.4 launched for both Alphascape and UwU, but we've tried to back off because - wait for it - we have other obligations now where we can't always meet every night to raid! I have class 3 days a week, and Sundays are dedicated to spending time with my family. Some members have work 5 or 6 days a week, come home to raid, go to sleep, and rinse repeat. We were nothing but obligated to our prog, and we still are. This last week we added in the weekends!

The day they pick to farm Suzaku Ex for weapons or mounts I may not be able to join because I have other responsibilities like, I dunno, studying for exams. It's shocking that they may be more important than the game, I know. I farm for dogs when I have the time. That free time may not always match up with my friends or my static mates. So I turn to party finder. But yes, I know, we are all at fault here for not dropping everything for a video game.

My other friends have their own statics that meet, and they may be raiding with them when I want to farm for a dog. Or they may be in school. Or spending time with their families. But that's still somehow our fault, right? Yes, it is the raiders' faults for having other obligations outside of the game. And, as a consequence, they should settle for that RDM who has "seen enrage" but dies to every mechanic. They should settle for the WHM that heals with Medica II only. They should settle for the tank that can't Provoke/Shirk for swaps, or hold aggro. Yes. Clearly.

Again. You don't have an actual argument here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You rely on randoms, you take what you can get. There's no way the devs can solve this by adding a parser, because most people who do endgame already use or can easily use them. If you don't like it, don't rely on randoms, and don't raid if "real life issues" make it so you can't show up frequently. Go build a cross server linkshell, or a server fc full of enough competent people that they can cover for the times when real life does intrude. If you try and force a fix through dev means, it's probably going to backfire; it may keep the bads out, but it may also end up keeping the people who would try and improve out too.

---

Maybe once this game moves away from its archaic looting system for savage that discourages people from participating in a fight after getting their weekly clear with a premade that'd actually work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jameseoakes

And this is why FFlogs is Toxic.

---

Because having expectations for your group and not wanting to carry people who either don't know the fight or are under-performing and holding the group back from a clear is a clear sign of toxicity am i right? This community sometimes, good lord.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zephera

No we don't. We kick underperformers, not carry them. You can waste time carrying if you want, but if I make a PF I'm going to pick and choose who stays, that's my right as the person who started the group.

---

You're wasting time doing runs with randoms, waiting for them to fill your pugs on farm parties and more, and them kicking them when they underperform or wipe you. If the content is hard enough, you're much better off not doing that and not hoping the randoms will be fixed by whatever half-ass measure the devs put out, and instead do it with a static and save PF for less demanding things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Ah, yes. How dare I be a full-time student trying to get a degree

---

If you have less time to play, scheduling is far more important precisely because you aren't logging on and waiting for pugs or other players and wiping because you have to kick dps. If you can't make a scheduled day consistently because your schedule is that fluid, you probably shouldn't play. Especially if a student, mmos have caused a lot of people to drop out.

I think a lot of the issue here is that there really isn't the social aspect to MMOs that you had in other games, the rules that made it possible to act smoothly. The static/raid fc model would do things like consistently schedule, recruit and train new players, etc. here its just everyone gets together when they want and for what they want and expects to do the hardest content in the game without a hitch. When they can't, they expect the devs to fix it and blame players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Selova

Because having expectations for your group and not wanting to carry people who either don't know the fight or are under-performing and holding the group back from a clear is a clear sign of toxicity am i right? This community sometimes, good lord.

---

What excluding people based on a few results in a third party website that doesn't even need you to sign up to it, your all just proving to me the worst of what I think of this games raiding player base.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You're wasting time doing runs with randoms, waiting for them to fill your pugs on farm parties and more, and them kicking them when they underperform or wipe you. If the content is hard enough, you're much better off not doing that and not hoping the randoms will be fixed by whatever half-ass measure the devs put out, and instead do it with a static and save PF for less demanding things.

---

PF was made for finding like-minded people to do content with, it's purposefully designed so you can control who gets in your party so you can have the smoothest run possible.
"Less demanding content" is what DF is for, as that's where you're actually not in control of who's in your party.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You rely on randoms, you take what you can get. There's no way the devs can solve this by adding a parser, because most people who do endgame already use or can easily use them. If you don't like it, don't rely on randoms, and don't raid if "real life issues" make it so you can't show up frequently. Go build a cross server linkshell, or a server fc full of enough competent people that they can cover for the times when real life does intrude. If you try and force a fix through dev means, it's probably going to backfire; it may keep the bads out, but it may also end up keeping the people who would try and improve out too.



sheesh, this game has the least time-demanding endgame of any mmo out there. Schedule your farms for one night a week for two or three hours; if people can't make it to that, they probably should consider if raiding is what they want to do. Because in other games there would be none of this, you get kicked if you don't show up on time enough. And you make sure you schedule things so people can plan for it. If you consistently need to pug stuff, that's a people failure; you need to talk to the people who aren't showing up and see what's up.

---

Are you trolling? I know you sometimes have opinions that might be less-than-informed but this is a new low.

Between people having different school, work and irl schedules in general there are a lot of times that someone might be looking for a farm party but not have a full group available to them. The Discord that I'm in with Hyo, Cass, Sigma and others has at least 20 people in it who are all reasonably active but we don't all play together all the time because we all have different lives outside of the game. Also, while I can't speak for them, I don't want to entirely insulate myself in a bubble of my friends because it makes venturing outside of that bubble... disappointing. I have tried.

Between my FC and that discord and the one I spoke of I probably have upwards of 50 people who I enjoy playing with and can contact... and yet I work from 4~6am until 3~4pm EST. By your logic I should just give up on raiding because I have a job.

This is perhaps your weakest argument to date. Please cease.