Lets nerf WAR :D

Why do you keep bumping this thread if you hate it so much?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

The OMFG WAR is not OP charitable trust.

---

If one of three tanks is kind of mandatory in your Party, than yes, he IS OP.
Else it wouldn`t matter if you go Alexander Savage with PLD/DRK, PLD/WAR or WAR/DRK.

Currently it is PLD/WAR or DRK/WAR, means WAR is to strong and needs adjustments.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cheraa

If one of three tanks is kind of mandatory in your Party, than yes, he IS OP.
Else it wouldn`t matter if you go Alexander Savage with PLD/DRK, PLD/WAR or WAR/DRK.

Currently it is PLD/WAR or DRK/WAR, means WAR is to strong and needs adjustments.

---

No. It means pld and/or drk need adjustments because they are (seemingly) underpowered. Stop wanting to nerf things that work good. The only adjustment war could get is a flat potency nerf.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brannigan

Why do you keep bumping this thread if you hate it so much?

---

Im not. I put those posts alomst immediately after some dumbass says something like:

"Because WAR is mandatory it needs to be nerfed"

I am posting sarcastic responses because it had become abundantly clear that people are really really stupid and it is not worth argueing with them.

I have laid out, in GREAT detail, why WAR is not overpowered and does not need nerfs.

So simply I am done, and just will continue to post nonsensical messages everytime this thread pops up... On that note...

What does the fox say? Wha pow pow pah pow, A wha pow pow pah pow

Warrior in my FC did 1645 dps on Phaust last night. lol ilvl 198.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RussW

Warrior in my FC did 1645 dps on Phaust last night. lol ilvl 198.

---

How many Decimates ?

A lot I would imagine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RussW

Warrior in my FC did 1645 dps on Phaust last night. lol ilvl 198.

---

This is worth nothing (in the discussion I mean) because of all the dolls :p Faust isn't a real dummy if you do at least one AoE ability. The BLM in my group was doing 2k+ before because of multiple flares.

My post was sort of a joke in context of this thread, however I thought it was interesting that a tank actually accomplished a pretty damn significant amount of DPS regardless of aoe or not. Im aware of padding the meter with aoe. On Phaust obviously no dolls need to die.

But youre right that has nothing to do with nerfing warriors. However, this thread has gone in circles so...

change damage buff of maim from 20% to 5%, get rid of berserk all together. Problem solved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thunderbreak

change damage buff of maim from 20% to 5%, get rid of berserk all together. Problem solved.

---

Pretty sure this is the dumbest idea in the whole thread...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thunderbreak

change damage buff of maim from 20% to 5%, get rid of berserk all together. Problem solved.

---

Please explain why this is needed. Please, I'll wait. This should be good.

Hoho, let the flame war start.

A) Do warriors have a hard time holding aggro without damage buff?

B) Who ever said anything about needed?

C) The concept of idea can never be dumb, it can only be conflicting. Like how it'll make you feel like lesser of a man perhaps, but it'll also get rid of ALOT of assholes from the community.

And before you say it, if a content require tanks to punch out certain amount of dps, either the Devs screwed up, or your dps screwed up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thunderbreak

Hoho, let the flame war start.

A) Do warriors have a hard time holding aggro without damage buff?

B) Who ever said anything about needed?

B) The concept of idea can never be dumb, it can only be conflicting. Like how it'll make you feel like lesser of a man perhaps, but it'll also get rid of ALOT of assholes from the community.

And before you say it, if a content require tanks to punch out certain amount of dps, either the Devs screwed up, or your dps screwed up.

---

A. What does that have anything to do with nerfing the ever loving fuck out of a classes DPS?

B. You have two Bs. Alphabet much bro?

B (number 2). Ideas can 100% be dumb. If you need proof just look over your idea to INSANLY nerf WAR for pretty much no reason, than saying that it would "solve" some problem (what problem would this solve?)

(what should be) C. Bro... Do you even Savage?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

A. What does that have anything to do with nerfing the ever loving fuck out of a classes DPS?

B. You have two Bs. Alphabet much bro?

B (number 2). Ideas can 100% be dumb. If you need proof just look over your idea to INSANLY nerf WAR for pretty much no reason, than saying that it would "solve" some problem (what problem would this solve?)

(what should be) C. Bro... Do you even Savage?

---

Thanks for pointing out the typo.

Everything you mentioned I've addressed, I've given a legit reason to nerf, a reason that's affecting the community's overall experience with egotistic and toxic players. Also I've already talked about contents that requires tank to dps. I can't convince you to listen to things you don't want to hear I suppose.

If there's 1 less snob/asshole playing warrior due to damage nerf, that's reason enough for me.

And yeah, I think your ideas are dumb too. As long as you defend having these buffs, there will always be assholes tanking using dps stance and wipe partys.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thunderbreak

snip

---

But... but... Your WAR isn't even 60 and you come into a thread bitching about "toxic WAR players" and stuff and ask for a stupidly brutal nerf on a job you don't even play at max level. Are you a troll ? Because that's how you troll people.

Oh and I also see that your main job, DRG, has no Alex Savage loot nor eso upgrade. Do you even know what you're talking about here ?


But to answer your last point, if they nerfed WAR to the ground like that, people would be forced to tank even more in DPS stance because this high tank DPS is actually needed in current high end content. That's why PLD has become the worst tank. They built the current encounters around everyone including the tanks doing max DPS. Nerfing like that wouldn't solve anything and would create more problems.

That makes like no sense, I have to max a job to tell if the player is an asshole or not? 2.0 had dps only warriors, they invented the whole dps accessory thing. You make it sound like it just dropped at 3.0. There were assholes then, and there are assholes now.

And that upgrade part...what are you smoking?

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/2792633/

The only thing isn't eso yet is accessories.

And ONCE AGAIN for god sakes I know reading is hard. But the content is created by the Devs where 1 role needs to do a task out of their role, but not every class in that role can perform this task, means the devs fucked up. If you are telling me pally and dk can do the same amount of DPS as warriors, then it's the player's fault. But you people say "have you done savage?" which suggests warrior dps is required. Then the content needs re-evaluation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thunderbreak

snip

---

You don't understand a shit about what I'm saying to you. Firstly, no, you don't have to max a job to tell if a player is an asshole. I was talking about your nerf idea about Maim and Berserk. Those are really stupid and anyone who plays WAR would know that. And god I know that DPS-tanking has been existing before 3.0, I was one of these guys running with pentamelded crafted STR accessories since SCoB. Your big problem is your idea of what an asshole is. You're basically saying that tanks who are playing STR/using their DPS stance while tanking are all assholes. It's totally what you sound like. And that makes YOU an asshole. Yes there is bad tanks not using defensive CDs and trying to mimic the good tanks by stance dancing and wearing DPS jewelry, but those are bad tanks only because they are bad, not because they wear DPS gear and have an aggressive-wannabe tanking style.

By eso UPGRADES I mean i210 eso gear. Which can be obtained in Alex Savage only. By saying that I was just pointing out the fact that you're coming into a thread without advanced knowledge about what you're talking about. When doing that you should be prepared to have people disagreeing with you because you're most likely to be wrong.

I don't think that the fact that tank DPS is required for clearing hard content means that the devs fucked up. It was their intention. It's a rule they wanted for their game. Yeah it doesn't work like every other MMOs (even if I know some MMOs where tank DPS was important too in high end content, that's not new to me at all). But it's how this game works because that's how the devs wanted it, the only thing they fucked up is job balance for PLD. PLD can still clear A4S; but it's a struggle compared to a DRK.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

You don't understand a shit about what I'm saying to you. Firstly, no, you don't have to max a job to tell if a player is an asshole. I was talking about your nerf idea about Maim and Berserk. Those are really stupid and anyone who plays WAR would know that. And god I know that DPS-tanking has been existing before 3.0, I was one of these guys running with pentamelded crafted STR accessories since SCoB. Your big problem is your idea of what an asshole is. You're basically saying that tanks who are playing STR/using their DPS stance while tanking are all assholes. It's totally what you sound like. And that makes YOU an asshole. Yes there is bad tanks not using defensive CDs and trying to mimic the good tanks by stance dancing and wearing DPS jewelry, but those are bad tanks only because they are bad, not because they wear DPS gear and have an aggressive-wannabe tanking style.

By eso UPGRADES I mean i210 eso gear. Which can be obtained in Alex Savage only. By saying that I was just pointing out the fact that you're coming into a thread without advanced knowledge about what you're talking about. When doing that you should be prepared to have people disagreeing with you because you're most likely to be wrong.

I don't think that the fact that tank DPS is required for clearing hard content means that the devs fucked up. It was their intention. It's a rule they wanted for their game. Yeah it doesn't work like every other MMOs (even if I know some MMOs where tank DPS was important too in high end content, that's not new to me at all). But it's how this game works because that's how the devs wanted it, the only thing they fucked up is job balance for PLD. PLD can still clear A4S; but it's a struggle compared to a DRK.

---

So to summarize your wall of text, you are saying I don't have gears, I haven't tried end game contents. So I have no idea what I'm talking about. The buffs doesn't have ANY contributing factors to ANY warriors acting elitist and snobby?

And READ CAREFULLY, I've never said or even suggested tanks that fashions strength accessory are automatically assholes. Also, I've never said dps required from tank = devs fucking up. Take the time to read first...

To WARs defense, their primary mitigation comes from their self-heals outside of Defiance and proper Inner Beast timing for tank busters. A WAR can still pull trash in Deliverance but may require to activate multiple cooldowns namely, Thrill of Battle, Convalescence, Bloodbath, and Vengeance. They just have to start off with 5 Wrath stacks, initiate with Steel Cyclone, followed by a crossed Flash then move to Deliverance and Pop whatever cooldown is needed; pref Infuriate and then followed by Decimate(Berserk is possible). Nerfing their raw power will hurt their self-heals, which will greatly hurt their mitigation outside of Defiance. If we're talking of PLD or DRK terms, it's like the same as activating Rampart/Sentinel or Shadowskin/Shadow Wall in Sword Oath or with Grit off. IMO, WAR is already a pretty tough tank to master and would at least need to be rewarded for the effort put in to it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thunderbreak

So to summarize your wall of text, you are saying I don't have gears, I haven't tried end game contents. So I have no idea what I'm talking about. The buffs doesn't have ANY contributing factors to ANY warriors acting elitist and snobby?

---

To summarize, yes (and that's not what I call a wall of text lol). And by "Warriors acting elitist and snobby" I don't see what you're talking about. People act "elitist and snobby" whatever their job is. I really don't understand the thing you're trying to say here and I don't really understand the problem with the fact of being elitist either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thunderbreak

And READ CAREFULLY, I've never said or even suggested tanks that fashions strength accessory are automatically assholes. Also, I've never said dps required from tank = devs fucking up. Take the time to read first...

---

Oh I read what you said otherwise I wouldn't quote you and answer about it. You exactly said what you claim not having said. But it's not the first time that you suggest people to "take the time to read" because appearently we "don't understand" what you're saying. Maybe you're the one who is failing to formulate his ideas ? Because everything we answered to you was actually accurate answers to your writings. I personally think that you just don't have any arguments to defend your point, so it's easier for you to tell us that we don't understand instead of just doing what honest beings do when they're told that they're wrong : shut the hell up, learn from this experience, and move on.

In order for you to understand why your idea of nerfing WAR DPS to the ground is stupid I'm gonna explain shortly : It would nerf both their tankiness (since a lot comes from their lifestealing abilities) and their main raid utility which is the DPS they bring. And it would go completely against what SE originally wanted and still wants for WAR : being the tank that wrecks shit.

In a world... Where everything is perfectly balanced.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-conte...frustrated.gif

Since it seems the devs are completely unwilling to actually improve the other two tanks to WAR's level nerfing WAR might be the most realistic solution at this point, which won't happen anyway since everything is obviously working as intended for them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NFaelivrin

Since it seems the devs are completely unwilling to actually improve the other two tanks to WAR's level nerfing WAR might be the most realistic solution at this point, which won't happen anyway since everything is obviously working as intended for them.

---

At this point with what some skilled DRKs are pulling off in savage, you'd have to nerf them too. PLD needs some raid DPS and its utilities fixed. I've come to the conclusion since authoring this thread that DRK and WAR are actually on very equal footing with one losing out to the other in certain circumstances and vice versa, and a specific nerf to either is highly unlikely to be in the cards. PLD just needs some love and it'll get it as hard as this forum is kicking and screaming about it. 3.2 is going to be a hell of a patch.

No, lol. DRK and WAR aren't even close to equal footing.

WAR: Never runs out of TP
DRK: Runs out right away in Grit, somewhat slower out

WAR: OT DPS is always that high
DRK: Needs to get hit for MP and procs

WAR: IB works for Magic and Physical
DRK: DM magic only

WAR: 3-4 IB a minute+half a Thrill
DRK: 1 DM and 2/3 of a Shadowskin a minute

WAR: 30% DMG cooldown every 2 minutes+20% of a full stack of Wrath
DRK: 30% DMG cooldown every 3 minutes

WAR: 100% parry rate every 90s+20% of a full stack of Wrath
DRK: +30% parry rate every minute

WAR: Wrath grants passive parry buff
DRK: No passive mitigation

WAR: Slashing debuff and damage down debuff on demand on up to 3 targets.
DRK: Damage down on parry proc for one target only

WAR: Burst self-healing on demand+weak self-heal tied to combo
DRK: Self-heal tied to combo only

True, WAR loses IB if they turn off the tank stance, but if they need it they can switch in off GCD smoothly so it doesn't actually prevent them from using their DPS stance.

DRK is helped by the current content, but looking that their abilities, WAR is excellent in a much, much broader range of content than DRK is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syzygian

At this point with what some skilled DRKs are pulling off in savage, you'd have to nerf them too. PLD needs some raid DPS and its utilities fixed. I've come to the conclusion since authoring this thread that DRK and WAR are actually on very equal footing with one losing out to the other in certain circumstances and vice versa, and a specific nerf to either is highly unlikely to be in the cards. PLD just needs some love and it'll get it as hard as this forum is kicking and screaming about it. 3.2 is going to be a hell of a patch.

---

Square doesn't give a shit about Paladin, they never have since 2.1. It's only becoming more and more evident with how terrible they're trying to cover the issue up with band aid fixes left and right. We're not going to be fixed until everyone pushes Square's shit in and demands that they fix the situation they've created. 3.2 won't bring anything to Paladin as of right now, I guarantee it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shining_Tiger_Excalibur

Square doesn't give a shit about Paladin, they never have since 2.1. It's only becoming more and more evident with how terrible they're trying to cover the issue up with band aid fixes left and right. We're not going to be fixed until everyone pushes Square's shit in and demands that they fix the situation they've created. 3.2 won't bring anything to Paladin as of right now, I guarantee it.

---

We'll see my friend, we'll see. If 3.2 doesn't bring anything for you Paladin fellows, I'm sure all the tank community including us, Dark Knights and Warriors, will scream for you.

Incidentally, to respond to the actual title of this thread:

I wouldn't like to see WAR "nerfed" directly, but I do want to see some reworking of the job to become more in line with the other tanks. Right now WAR is largely superior as an OT and due to the fact that they benefit from using their defensive buffs for DPS and do not benefit from tanking very much (the reflect from Vengeance being the only thing), they've basically become a glorified DPS that only tanks if they have to.

I think it would be a healthy thing to reduce the potency on Fell Cleave and move it elsewhere. Making Fell Cleave and Inner Beast closer in potency would encourage the stance-dance-to-mitigate play that SE says they imagined instead of the avoid-Defiance-like-cancer play we have now.

Right now WAR in terms of DPS has:

The highest OT DPS in vacuum
The lowest potency gain for tanking period
Unlimited TP

It would be good to adjust it not so much because OMG WAR OP, but because this tends to force the other tank into the MT role and WAR into the OT role. It would also be good if WAR had resource management, but I think we're more likely to see the other two tanks get more and more TP buffs gradually until none of the tanks ever run out of TP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

We'll see my friend, we'll see. If 3.2 doesn't bring anything for you Paladin fellows, I'm sure all the tank community including us, Dark Knights and Warriors, will scream for you.

---

I'm gonna' call everyone's bluff on this statement. People are already dismissing the Paladin issue solely based on the Shield Swipe change. The community, in two months time, will have forgotten everything that has been talked about here, they'll forget every single piece of numerical data that has been shown directly exposing the issue, they'll forget just why Warrior fits in every single thing despite being just the "DPS tank" that's "more squishy" than the rest.

If I'm pissing people off, good, that means you won't forget now. That means you'll think back to when I said we're given nothing but band aid fixes or explicitly catered to for just a short while and then forgotten again. I wouldn't be surprised if it ACTUALLY gets worse for Paladins in the future. I'm tired of standing up and screaming to be heard....and now I'm gonna' log off and try to do....something, I don't know anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

We'll see my friend, we'll see. If 3.2 doesn't bring anything for you Paladin fellows, I'm sure all the tank community including us, Dark Knights and Warriors, will scream for you.

---

Unlikely, a few will, but most don't understand why Pld is weak, since they do not raid, and of course you will get those people that will just "Lol, good thing I am not you, but too bad", mostly warrior players atm.

But yes, Plds were asking for buffs in the early weeks of Alexander Savage. This is when several forums appeared with Plds wanting buffs to dps/aggro/utilities because they all felt lacking in Savage. Responses we got was, "Git Gud" "You have your shield only party" "HALLOWED GROUND." You had your time in 2.0" There was even a very active poster that downright tried to single handly keep Pld gimp, and tried to stop Pld needs buff threads, but showing the evidence "HOW MUCH STRONGER PLD WAS TO THE OTHER CLASSES" with little data on actual combat situtations with Pld. So I don't think 3.2 will be much different if Pld remains gimped.

It also really doesn't help that Yoshida himself is saying this stuff too, like Pld does less dps because of shield/HG, and is best defensive tank. Yet Pld dies when there is a continuous amounts of magical dmg...look at the first floor of Alexnader Savage THE FIRST FLOOR HG becomes just another common cd you use in a rotation, and let allow if you get the rarity of having 4 jumps...oops Pld has no more cds...and dies while other tanks are fine...best defensive tank...not really, so Pld doing less dmg doesn't justify itself at all in magical encounters. I just find it really messed up that Yoshida prefers to go by this FoTM tank garbage, then balancing the tanks. If this doesn't change Drk might be the next victim in 3.2, and Yoshida will just say well...Drk just doesn't fit in the content, but the job is fine, and so doesn't need a buff...wait a month or more to get better gear to do a encounter that the other tanks already did a month ago. Balance!

Actually from the most recent interview :

"[Speaking about the current very high reliance on tank DPS and stuff]

Yoshida: We'll be making effort to eliminate that as much as possible. Within the content, there are strong and weak points to each job. For example, in the second area of savage, a paladin main tank should have higher stability than a dark knight. Depending on the player and their skill level, each party will see different results, but we'd like to reduce the difference. We can't just make adjustments to jobs based on whether they are strong or weak in particular content as that would break the jobs, so we'll work to eliminate disadvantages to certain jobs as much as possible in the content. That doesn't mean we won't be making any adjustments to jobs in the future, but we'd like to also hear feedback after playing through the different content in patch 3.1."

He clearly says that he wants to alleviate the different weaknesses and strengths of each tank for future content. Whether it needs specific job adjustments or not (I strongly believe that PLD needs adjustments on a lot of things and DRK may need some tweaks too in the physical mitigation and raid utility departments). I think they need to see if changing the encounter design is enough or not, and it will obviously not be enough. I agree that it takes too much time, but I believe that PLD, and tank balance issues will be fixed at some point, most likely 3.2 as it has been already stated multiple times since : new raid tier, new encounter design, revamped accessories, revamped materia system, reworked tank damage calculation... Literally everything could change in 3.2.

The problem is that Yoshida is either totally misinformed about the situation with the three tanks or he's desperately trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the players so that they don't have to explain why fixes didn't happen months ago. It's not about one tank being disadvantaged in one set of content, it's about there being no clarity of vision in the design of the tanks or any pretense of attempting to balance the tanks from a defensive or offensive PoV.

It's not just PLD that's broken, DRK is also broken. Even DRK+WAR is broken if we were doing 2.0 content. Nerfing WAR or mindlessly buffing PLD won't really solve the problem either, they need to go do the work that they should have done before releasing 3.0 and make it so the three tanks work together properly.

I posted this in the JP forums, but here's a quick analysis of the tank situation.

Debuffs:

WAR: DMG -10%
DRK: INT -10% (overwritten by MNK), DMG -10% (depends on parry, can be applied to 1 target only)
PLD: STR -10%

Defensive Buffs:

PLD/DRK: -20% DMG 22% uptime　
WAR: -20% DMG >30% uptime

PLD: -40% DMG 5.5% uptime　　
DRK: -30% DMG 5.5% uptime
WAR: -30% DMG 12.5% uptime

PLD: Block+60% 8.3% uptime
DRK: Parry+30% 33% uptime
WAR: 100% Parry 22% uptime

Other:

PLD: Sheltron, Stoneskin, Convalescence+10%, Awareness duration enhanced, Shield
DRK:　Dark Mind
WAR: Thrill of Battle, Infuriate, Foresight recast reduced, Bloodbath duration enhanced, Wrath-based parry buff

Interruptions:

PLD: Stun, Silence, Pacification
DRK: Stun
WAR: Stun

DPS:

DRK: No Grit MT high, Grit very high, OT average, AoE high
PLD: SwO MT slightly low, ShO very low, OT somewhat low, AoE extremely low
WAR: Del MT high, Def average, OT very high, AoE very high

TP management:

DRK: Bad as OT, terrible as MT
PLD: Bad as OT, bad as MT
WAR: Virtually unlimited as OT, Excellent as MT

Self-heal:

PLD: Terrible if interrupted, Excellent if not interrupted
DRK: Limited
WAR: Good to Excellent

Utility:

PLD: Divine Veil, Protect, Stoneskin, Cover, Clemency
DRK: Reprisal (requires parrying damage), Delirium (overwritten by MNK)
WAR: Storm's Path, Storm's Eye, Defiance-buff to Deployment Tactics, Clemency, and Synastry, Mantra

So we have:

PLD: The only tank with a complete interruption toolkit (even both the other tanks combined do not make a PLD interruption toolkit). Average against physical damage. Poor against magic damage. Low DPS. Low AoE. Poor TP management. Highly conditional self-healing. Situational utility.

DRK: Good against magic damage. Poor against physical damage. Conditionally high DPS. Poor to terrible TP management. Poor self-healing. Highly conditional utility.

WAR: Good against magic damage. Excellent against physical damage. Unconditionally high DPS. Excellent TP management. Good self-healing. Unconditionally excellent utility.

Incidentally WAR does have one "weakness"; it pairs relatively badly with Scholar due to how Defiance works. Hilarious that it's contrary to the lore.

Having waited months since the drop of 3.0, if they honestly expect people to wait until 3.2 they sure as hell better start acknowledging the problem and being transparent about their plans for a solution instead of trying to feed us "well, it's about how the jobs work in the content" and trying to pretend there's nothing wrong with the jobs themselves.

The system is broken because they've kept skills as they were in 2.0 when there were only 2 options for tanks and they've brought in a new tank that doesn't form a complete debuff and interruption toolkit when paired with either other tank and a gimmick (a tremendously strong magic cooldown) that is so situational and contrary to the design of the vast majority of existing healer and tank mitigation skills (Foresight, Eye4Eye, etc.) that content that caters to it clashes badly with other jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eagledorf

snip

---

I totally agree here (Kudos for the very detailed analysis), I was personally just pointing out the dev's PoV. We unfortunately can't do anything to make them do something more other than continue to scream like that everyday on the forums. Maybe we'll be heard before 3.2, but I woulnd't expect much. I really can just hope that in 3.2, everything will be as correctly fixed as WAR has been in 2.1.

Quote:

---

PLD: Average against physical damage. Poor against magic damage. Low DPS. Low AoE DPS.

WAR: Good against magic damage. Excellent against physical damage. Unconditionally high DPS.

---

Wait a second, doesn't SE and Yoshi always try to sell us, that our super low DPS of Paladins comes out of our super tankiness, but reality tells us the Tank with the biggest DPS, delivers the best defence, too?
Seems like you absolutly messed it up, SquareEnix!

But hey, HW is ONLY five month old, no time at all to hotfix the current Tank mess you created?!?

I am not agruing things may not change in 3.2 with tanks. It's just sometimes what is said in a interview from devs, and what is actually implemented into that game comes out differently. I rather see more changes before 3.2, and the changes could be small. But it would show they are genuinely actively concern about the subject. I really do not want to see 3.0-3.1 tank inbalance to be forgotten, where changes in 3.2 didn't really change anything. Where there is nothing but uproar on the forums again about tank inbalance months later in 3.2. I've waited for 5 months, and still little has not changed so my hopes for 3.2 changes are not high.

Each tank can have it's own strengths, and weaknessess that is fine, but not on terms of a tank being a tank(mitigation) or dps inbalance to the point it seems more like a flaw design, then one of the tanks strenghts or weaknessess. I really do not want to see FoTM tanks again ever. Why I really highly promote the idea all tanks could be able to MT/OT equally the same. Then have DRK/PLD fighting for the MT spot all the time becoming the new FoTM every raid, while War just always has the OT spot to themselves. Atleast to me this would help out how each tanks will function in groups later down the road. I personally think all 3 tanks need to be readjusted for this to happen to a degree.

Funny thing is that they seem to be making the same mistake as FF 11. Claim nothing is wrong with the job when RDM and NIN are the go to tanks for the strongest things in the game and DPS classes are ok with tanking. I mean..at least they can actually keep hate in this one......some what.

But maybe the new shield swipe change has made them a bit better. Guess I'll go see. Off to Shield shoryuken my way through things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eagledorf

snip

---

This.

The fundamental issue comes down to the design choices made, both in the classes and the meta (speaking only up to A2S and from progression raiding in other MMOs). The meta requires a minimum threshold (let's say 1) of a variable, let's call it "tankiness". If tankiness is too low, the tank cannot survive the tank buster, thus is not viable. The second variable we have at present for tanks is damage and due to the way the meta is currently structured, damage >> tankiness where tankiness >= 1.

On Equalising tankiness

Part of the issue with the current tanking meta is that it drastically favours short, powerful cooldowns over the longer, weaker ones. Equalising the tankiness of all the tanks would, in my opinion, require a shift in the meta to ensure that damage is normalised across a fight, with some spikes, rather than spike damage being the primary source of danger, which inherently favours the short, powerful cooldown, especially if they have a short recast.

In my opinion, more focus should be placed on tanks needing to roll through cooldowns, gradually mitigating a larger amount of damage the longer they tank and eventually needing to swap with their off tank lest they be flattened (I think A3 normal did this quite well in the final phase, prior to being outgeared, with the stacking blunt resistance down). Assuming that damage is equalised, and tankiness is equalised.

On Equalising Utility

The way I would see that tanks could be put on a level playing field is to have all tanks share equal damage and tankiness, but vary a utility, for instance:

PLD - healer and warding utility with clemency and divine veil;
WAR - party wide damage reduction utility through storm's path;
DRK - damage reduction based on blinding boss, so not guaranteed, but when effective better than WAR.

This would give some interesting combos:

PLD/WAR - general damage down and offhealing/shielding from PLD;
PLD/DRK - chance for higher damage reduction but more importance placed on PLD healing when the chance fails;
DRK/WAR - general damage reduction with a chance of very high damage reduction.

This would, in my opinion, make tanking a little more interesting and synergise the classes a little better, without having one go to pairing being objectively better.

On keeping tanks unique

Notwithstanding party utility, a major concern with normalising tankiness is homogenisation of the classes. In my opinion, the classes would fundamentally share the same basic structure of agro combo, damage combo, debuff combo. However, paladin would still keep it's blocking and healing mechanics, warrior still keep the stacks and dark knight still keep its many off gCD abilities. In my opinion this is sufficient to ensure that even if damage and tankiness are the same, each tank still has a unique flavour.

Summary

Tanking is currently in a difficult situation due in part to class design, but predominantly due to the current meta. I personally am of the opinion that if the meta changed (to one of sustained high damage) we would actually see a lot more balance in the tanking classes, forcing use of tank stance for greater periods of time where we see a lot more balance as WAR ~= DRK > PLD but (on physical fights) PLD > WAR ~= DRK in terms of defence.

It will be very interesting to see what happens with the tanking requirements come 3.2, but in my opinion a buff/nerf to a single class is not the solution.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seku

Funny thing is that they seem to be making the same mistake as FF 11. Claim nothing is wrong with the job when RDM and NIN are the go to tanks for the strongest things in the game and DPS classes are ok with tanking. I mean..at least they can actually keep hate in this one......some what.

But maybe the new shield swipe change has made them a bit better. Guess I'll go see. Off to Shield shoryuken my way through things.

---

I've tested the new shield swipe changes a little already. Not much has changed. It's a slight dps increase for mt Pld, I still have to use Rage of Halones to maintain aggro if mting while in sword oath without a ninja against higher dps players. I do around +1000dps in sword oath if you are wondering. And with shield swipe being ogcd, but still needing to rely on rng block procs to active it, makes this skill cumberson to use like several other of plds skills, and this buff is meaningless in a all magic encounter. lol

I wish Shield Swipe was turned into just a "ability" that doesn't need block to proc it, and only had the cd as it's cost to use. But with block rng the max you will ever get out of shield swipe is 2-3 per minute.

Well these are just my initial test/thoughts, I'll have a much better idea of it when I go into Savage on weds with my static. But atm just a minor pld mt dps/single target mt aggro buff.

R.I.P. Paladin

Took Paladin into Void Ark, could tell literally no difference at all minus an extremely minimal DPS gain. Enmity generation for Shield Swipe is still lackluster in content where it's supposedly "such a great change."

I am better off ignoring the proc in favor of more quickly starting my aggro combo all over again since the combo potency and enmity from Fast Blade to Rage of Halone greatly outweighs that of an ability that's on a 15 second cooldown. This will allow me to drop Shield Oath more soon. The change was unneeded, has made us weaker in content unjustifiably, and is very much ONLY a sidestep to the left and not a step forward.

I really feel like this was just a placebo given to the community to try and placate us with no real effort whatsoever to even begin effectively changing skills and inherent abilities of Paladin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shining_Tiger_Excalibur

snip

---

Yeah I feel like SE is just ignoring the player based that enjoys playing Paladin. I had higher hopes for Shield Swipe changes, and hoped it worked better in practice then it does on paper, but those feelings are slowly going away. Since Pld just really feels like it's in the same spot as 5 months ago.

But even with these changes prior to 3.1 when we just had the patch notes. The changes didn't really sway me away from playing my warrior for my static in A3S/A4S either over my Pld. I was just happy they gave Pld something, but not everything it needed either.