Ninja: Heaven-Sword (And Beyond)

Back to my main question, is it worth going for the 1300+ crit or not? :3
I know its propably hard to Answer, I more or less found my build while playing around a bit and then compared it to the builds with 1300+ crit.
Since my total weights are higher (I used the one from dervy for it), I'm actually kinda confused. I haven't played Ninja for long and certainly have still some issues with the rotation.
But since I want to be able to play him very well and ofc want the right gear for him I thought I could try asking you guys.
I know that crit itself doesn't only increase the chance and increases the strength as well. I'm actually more or less wondering if these missing 100 (or at least 50 up to 1300) weigh higher than the dex. Or to put it more precisely, is there a hard cap at 1300? does anyone know it? ^^'
Kinda sorry for my questions if they seem dumb, no one of you would have propably been able to test it allready, but still... it's kinda naggin me xD


BTW when i think of it I actually had n 8k crit with TA once (my crit is around 1100+)
It was buffed with B4B and IR at least, dunno if smth else was in it as well, but it propably was.

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Originally Posted by Lienad

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100 crit won't make you crit for a lot more, however paired with full buffs it will be an higher value.

Crit as you probably know make dps swing a lot, i personally would go for the 1366 crit BiS instead.

If i'm not mistaken, 100 crit is a difference of 28 DEX on NIN.

And your BiS is only better by 0.152

Do you think 0.152 is better than 100 extra crit?

Hello, I've tried looking for some info in the previous 5-6 pages but I couldn't find a definite answer to my specific doubt, so I'm going to ask:
Which one do you think is the "real bis" between the following?
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/X5LN
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/X5LP
The only differences being the ring and food. I'm asking because I noticed that in the first case it's true you have lower crit, but you gain 6 dex (and 7 det but whatever) and at around 590 sks the gcd convenientely lowers to 2.07, so I suspect that overall it's slightly better. So what's your opinion? Ofc I'm well aware about the theorycrafting and how sks is a poor stat on NIN, but I'm curious about this specific case. Do you think the trade-off between crit and -.02 gcd + dex + det is worth it here?

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

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Originally Posted by Lienad

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To answer both yours and Lienads question, due to the quadratic growth in comparison to the other stats, even with a slight loss in terms of stat weights the increase caused by crit is larger. This is one of the downsides to stat weights as it's constant and doesn't take into account of the growth of crit nor the spikes/valleys of SS. In short, even at the loss main stat crit trumps it in a close to equal weight.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

To answer both yours and Lienads question.

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I guess the only way to compare the two is by doing simulations with both and see which one gives the higher dps, right? Since sks weight is constant but actually it's meaningful only when you reach certain values that make che gcd go down. In other terms, am I right in assuming that sks weight is undervalued when in the left neighborhood of a threshold that reduces the gcd and overvalued in the opposite case?
But even then, when you say that crit growth rate is quadratic, you mean that +50 crit with higher crit rate should in theory provide a higher dps boost than the same +50 crit with a lower starting crit value? Well, if that's the case then I guess that the 1366 crit set is overall better. I didn't know that crit had a quadratic growth tbh, good to know.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

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Here's how the stats work for NIN: https://i.gyazo.com/edf77419dcb277b9...fa769d4c59.png
The formula for the DPS increase of crit at 1358 dex assuming det and SS stays at 218 and 354 is: 8.823e-05*crit^2 + 0.2005*crit + 1732

As for SS, yes the closer you are to a threshold when looking at a point by point for the stat weight of SS the less it's worth, a better way to look at it is that for one tier of SS its stat weight is 31*0.141. But until you hit an actual threshold it's 0, meaning that if you only need 5 additional points it's actual value is closer to 31*0.141/5 which is a stat weight of 0.874 per point, which is a lot higher than any other secondary stat. To add on, when planning to hit a threshold, if you need to use a SS V materia it's 31*0.141/12 points = 0.364 which still makes it worth it over melding crit. But there's one additional "issue" with SS, it's usefullness is very different between each threshold, some thresholds has a very low value while some has a much higher, these are very hard to map out as it's dependant on things such as ping, rotation and when you pop buffs.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/X0I0
This is another Set somebody told me. What doch you guys think?

Thanks for the video Momo :) I understand what you mean about CD alignment after watching and trying it out for myself. It seems far stricter on timing than the AE opener, but I guess that is the price you pay for more deeps :p haha.

EDIT: in your vids, it looks like you are executing GCDs while facing away from the boss, how is that achieved?

https://youtu.be/aGovV988of4?t=50s

This part here, (about 54-1:00 secs), as you move away from the boss to position for stasis, you use DE while facing away.

Quite possibly, I use Standard. Ah well, thought there may have been some trick I was missing, haha.

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Originally Posted by DarkerOrange

Quite possibly, I use Standard. Ah well, thought there may have been some trick I was missing, haha.

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It's possible with standard as well, the character will turn for a micro second which isn't really noticeable.

@Jinzhu why were you using doton instead of raiton in the video? The potency of doton is 320 vs the 360 of raiton.

cos doton is applied as a buff on you, rather than a debuff on the enemy. stasis pauses the timer, but the dot keeps ticking, giving a 34 second duration.

Another silly question that might have been answered before.
Is it worth to put SF and MUT with TA up or the dps gain is minimal.

Cheers

Outside of the opener that Momo posted, your dots should always be put up inside your TA window wherever possible.

There's something that's bothering me besides low Crit rate:

Let's say TA is about 14s to be ready, and Murdras just got ready to use, should i use the Mudras or wait for TA to be at 10-9s before it's ready and then use Suiton?

I've been waiting for TA but i don't know if that's the right thing to do.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

There's something that's bothering me besides low Crit rate:

Let's say TA is about 14s to be ready, and Murdras just got ready to use, should i use the Mudras or wait for TA to be at 10-9s before it's ready and then use Suiton?

I've been waiting for TA but i don't know if that's the right thing to do.

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Depends on the fight and team, will you be missing out on a TA by using fuma instead of waiting, does it line up with your teammates and your own cooldowns? If we look at a dummy fight, you have TA come out at say 8 seconds, next one at 68, 3rd one at 128 and there's no 4th one because 180-128 < 60. This means that you have a 52 second window that you can hold the cooldown in case of better allignment with other abilities or cooldowns. This can be applied in actual fights, easiest is fights like A12S where there's barely any hp based phasing and you'll more or less always know when stuff is up and can be used.

The personal value of TA excluding the damage increase is 400 potency/60 seconds or 6.7 potency/sec. Meaning that if it alligns with your teammates cooldowns and they have 3 abillities with a value of 200 potency, they'll get 60 potency out of it, so it's worth holding TA for roughly 9 seconds. There's a lot more to it as you need to take your own abilities into account as well.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

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Thanks for the explanation, i forgot to mention it was on a Dummy perspective (yes i'm still trying to down A12S dummy and still at 3%).

Obviously from a Raid perspective it makes sense to use it when aligned with everyone's cooldown, my issue is that on the Dummy it could result in less DPS when it ends at 3m, i always wait for TA even if there's 18s left, i still have to figure out if it's worth to use Fuma over Raiton since when i hit with Raiton skill usage is already in wait list for at least 1 second, and with Fuma this doesn't happen, still on the Dummy seems about the same result to me, depending on how much i crit.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

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I would in all honesty just skip trying to beat the dummy, instead of trying to optimise it for a fight that has no value, try and find a party and enter savage alex instead. Even though I couldn't beat the dummy I was still able to beat the real fight, at lower ilvls it's more of a how lucky can I be, than pure optimisation. Optimisation can help a lot, but the time spent is more or less wasted when doing it on a dummy.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

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I don't think at this time anyone wants to make a static and those in PF request for people with exp at least in A10S, i came back 3 weeks ago so it's been a catchup fight for me and finish Ninja Relic, i started a Training Raid Finder earlier today, it was at 163m then i gave up and proceed to finish Roulettes for Tomes.

The reason i do the A12S dummy is for the simple reason that i might be doing mistakes that need fixing, i know that people cleared A12S without clearing the dummy, read that multiple times, but that doesn't mean i shouldn't attempt it, there's always room for improvement and i look forward to it, getting to 3% is ok i guess, but without high crit i can't know for sure if that was the reason i didn't beat it, and since i don't want to spend Gil on HQ crafted gear + pentamelds (i only have 2m atm lol) i came here for help.

Obviously the real thing is different, boss goes away, need to move to dodge stuff, mechanics to deal with, downtime etc

I don't know if i'm going to say a pretty nonsense thing, but isn't that what DPS Limit Break is for? To compensate DPS loss?

Otherwise i don't see how people who can't beat the dummy finish the boss.

Anyway i guess you're right, i'll try to jump into Savage, but i'd like to have some exp before i find a static, i'll keep Raid Finder up. :/

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

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A dummy can only take you so far, getting into the fight and experiencing it provides a lot more and is more fun. While I haven't tested raid finder myself, I've read and heard of many people with success in it. If RF doesn't work try to PF a practice group, both 9 and 10 are face roll enough to be able to learn it without too much issues even with a party finder group.

A DPS limit break can be used to compensate for low DPS, but it's also something that is always useful unless you need something like tank limit break and unless something goes horribly wrong healer LB shouldn't be needed. What the except for everything that the fight has, what the dummy doesn't include is the party buff, food buff, potion and other classes abilities. While SE said that the DPS for the SSS dummies are what is needed excluding any type of "outside" buff, it's tuned a lot higher than what it actually should be at. As long as you're within something like 5% you're all fine.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

what the dummy doesn't include is the party buff, food buff, potion and other classes abilities.

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You can still use food and pots on dummy and probably chocobo too for a 1% increase, but i refuse to use those because i believe they're meant to be finished with your rotation alone.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

You can still use food and pots on dummy and probably chocobo too for a 1% increase, but i refuse to use those because i believe they're meant to be finished with your rotation alone.

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Including food, pot and party buff you need to be on average i255 and i255 weapon, remove food, pot and party buff and you're going to need closer to i260 to be able to clear it on average. i260 is a lot higher than what you would need to clear A12S, so we can conclude that the HP values on the dummy are in fact more in check with what you should hit with pot, food and party buff, even though they said that the HP was made without food, pot nor party buff in thought when doing the dummy

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Originally Posted by Krindor

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Sorry i've been under post limits for hours lol

I was ilvl252 (hovering low over 900 crit) when i got the 3% on dummy and had 21% crit chance.

I don't think i need i255 along food and pots either, World First groups had ilvl250 when they cleared A12S, sure they used the best Food and Pots along pentamelds, but that's something understandable when you're running for World Firsts, so you push harder, hopefully skipping phases, and save time with it which is already an advantage.

The rest is pretty much whoever is good at noticing mechanics and solve them.

Anyway, i have the relic i260 with max crit and det, so i thought i should be able to clear it, and the only thing i see me from doing so is my low crit.

I could probably get around 940 crit with food and use Pot and get it done, but i defend the idea that Potions shouldn't be used on dummies (especially someone like me that even with all crafters at 60 has low gil) but rather on the real thing to compensate DPS losses that occur as the fight goes on, being them to deal with mechanics, downtime, etc

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

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At 3% you're missing out on roughly 70 DPS to beat it, then it might also be on the higher part of damage variation and crits on the right attack, I never said it was impossible to beat it, just that beating it 50% of the time requires closer to i260.

I managed to start beating it at around i255, at 260 you should destroy it, haha. I'm currently i257 with the 260 weapon and I end up with between 8-10 secs left at kill.

Well, DPS certainly shouldn't ignore the importance of weapon damage. Your weapon counts for two slots in your average item level, but if SE had wanted to make average item levels more proportional to damage output, they'd have to up it to about half the total slots.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

At 3% you're missing out on roughly 70 DPS to beat it, then it might also be on the higher part of damage variation and crits on the right attack, I never said it was impossible to beat it, just that beating it 50% of the time requires closer to i260.

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Just did another test, swapped all IV Crit Materia for V (except one ring), was an increase of 30 crit, then got Shire belt (i260) which gives more 40 crit, 984 crit atm.

Test 1:

6% Left: 17% Crit Chance

Test 2:

1% Left: 25% Crit chance

Now i'm onto something lol

To be honest, the gear set I simulated was just full unmelded i260 shire gear, I was too lazy to meld anything into it which I probably should've mentioned. So a fully melded i255 should be able to beat it.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

To be honest, the gear set I simulated was just full unmelded i260 shire gear, I was too lazy to meld anything into it which I probably should've mentioned. So a fully melded i255 should be able to beat it.

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You sure unmelded i260 shire is enough? (One ring has to be i250, for example Normal Alex ring)


i260 Stats with Maxed Relic:

- 1485 DEX
- 871 Crit
- 613 Det
- 725 Sks
- 3222 Weight

Fully Melded i250 (Sophia Weapon)

- 1401 DEX
- 1135 Crit (+74 DEX plus Crit modifier)
- 786 Det (+36 DEX)
- 848 Sks (+17 DEX)
- 3251 Weight

The pentamelded set has 1528~ DEX if we combine the difference in stats, and also higher crit, which helps a lot.

Anyway i did another tests and i'm back to 17% crit, i don't know what's wrong, either i'm very unlucky or not sure.

I see DRG, BRD, SMN and MNKs over 30% when a fight is over, meanwhile i go up to 23% max and that's rare to happen.

I did Void Ark today for book, and even on Monk i had 22% (which imo is low considering Bootshine) crit lol.

Interesting. Have been doing the SF opener this week and it is definitely better. I will have to give this a go too.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

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The shire set is cutting it close, meaning that it's about 50% chance of sucess while the melded i250 with soph wep is about 30-40 DPS above the point so something closer to 70% success.

As for DarkerOrange's using the stats posted on lodestone we get 165.5 seconds to kill the A12S dummy, add some delays due to ping and 12 seconds is quite reasonable.

I am confused. Which set is now BiS? Can somebody post it please?
I : http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/X0I0

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/W40W

Have yet to find any set with a higher DPS.

I have a question about Shadewalker. I just want to know how it works and when is the optimal time to use it. I noticed that if I use it pre-pull, all the aggro will go to me so now I only reserve it for the times when I'm #2 on the enmity list... or should I just use it even when I'm not #2?

And let's say there are 3 mobs and I'm focusing on just 1 while the other 2 are not on my enemy list; it only affects the mob that I'm attacking, right?

Just wanted to reconfirm some things because it is scary when I use Shadewalker and see the aggro symbol for ALL of the mobs become red.

At Raids you use it right before the Pull on the MT.
You can also use it later in the Fight again on the MT, so that he can fight without Tank-Stance most of the time.

In normal Dungeons I always use it at the boss und all Minibosses before.

On trash it's not really necessary


Your Number on the enmity list is not important for Shadewalker.
For the time it is up, it will give the Tank 80% of your Hate, which you'll do on the target during the uptime.

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Originally Posted by Jinzhu

Putting together a Ninja guide. What are some thing you would like seen explained that aren't very delved into in other guides?

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There really aren't a ton of guides outside of Shasta's. I would say the biggest thing I don't see talked about is aligning CDs or use as they come up. I know CD alignment is very fight specific, but it'd be nice to know if delaying IR 10sec to align with TA is worth it or not.

Side Question: I see that you send 3 people in for Timegate adds during A12S. We tried that with mixed success this past week. I need to look more into it, but what factors into their enrage? Does engagement time matter at all or is it just a specific timer from spawn or if a death occurs?

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Originally Posted by Krindor

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/W40W

Have yet to find any set with a higher DPS.

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There's this: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/X5KI

But i still prefer the 1366 crit one.

I'm ilvl254 now and beat the dummy np now with 1245 crit, usually 4-5s left.

I also tried DRG and beat it, with 6-7s left at ilvl251.

But on Monk i'm i250 and can't beat it by 150 DPS lol.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

There's this: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/X5KI

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Keyword being DPS and not stat weight, the set I posted has the highest DPS and the other set has 486 SS, next threshold is at 492. So it has 19 "worthless" SS as compared to the 10 of the set I posted.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

Keyword being DPS and not stat weight, the set I posted has the highest DPS and the other set has 486 SS, next threshold is at 492. So it has 19 "worthless" SS as compared to the 10 of the set I posted.

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It still has 83 more det, it's not crit but det isn't rng like crit, if we calculate the the difference in DEX between the differences of SkS, DET and Crit, the 1366 crit is only better by 4-5DEX.

But it also has less 6 DEX from gear totals.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

It still has 83 more det, it's not crit but det isn't rng like crit, if we calculate the the difference in DEX between the differences of SkS, DET and Crit, the 1366 crit is only better by 4-5DEX.

But it also has less 6 DEX from gear totals.

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I'm still not talking about weights, weights are limited, it's the simulated average DPS where the difference is.