DRG has been broken for far too long. Fix it SE

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My personal suggestion:
The most reasonable request to buff our damage would be to add potency to Phlebotomize, Chaos Thrust, and Vorpal Thrust.

Vorpal Thrust 200 > 220
Phlebotomize 170/25 > 170/35
Chaos Thrust 200/30 > 220 /40

This seems like a reasonable request, makes Vorpal Thrust worth using at low level (currently Impulse Drive spam as a low level Lancer is the highest damage outside of Life Surge cooldown before you get Full Thrust) and ups our sustained damage without adding too much to our burst.

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That's not nearly enough of a buff to put Drg on the same playing field as Mnk and Nin, not even close, sadly.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

Power Surge is an awful skill. Just like all "press this button on CD or have sub-par dps" skills. It's uncreative and boring game design.

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That's basically saying that Life Surge is an awful skill as well.

Seriously the thing with most of you guys you guys try too hard and basically want to revamp the Job / make an entirely different Job with different playstyle and trying to make it similar to MNK / NIN while the issue is only (1)Low M.DEF and (2)Weaponskills that should have higher potency due to not having speed boosts like GL3 and Futon.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

Vorpal Thrust 200 > 220
Phlebotomize 170/25 > 170/35
Chaos Thrust 200/30 > 220 /40

This seems like a reasonable request, makes Vorpal Thrust worth using at low level (currently Impulse Drive spam as a low level Lancer is the highest damage outside of Life Surge cooldown before you get Full Thrust) and ups our sustained damage without adding too much to our burst.

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IMO would be better if:

HT: +20%
VT: 250
FT: 350
CT: 250/50

And +100 or +150 MDEF. I don't really get how we're armored to the teeth yet took more damage then people who just wear robes and cloths. We take more damage than a BLM which is meant-to-be the glass cannon of the game. I always think DRGs supposed to be the BLM of the melee classes but eh.

Firstly, I've been wanting to say this for a while now and it is not directed toward anyone in particular;

MNK = Low Burst / High Sustained

NIN = Mid Burst / Mid Sustained

DRG = High Burst / Low Sustained

So, stop judging DRGs on parse numbers as they reflect average damage per second (which is sustained). Thank you.
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As for fixing DRG, it needs 1) increased magic defense, on par with that of the other melee, with or without a higher physical defense and 2) Increase in spike damage potential as NIN treads a little too close to DRG numbers. Done.

P.S. After any and all changes, DRG DPS will, and should, continue to be lower than that of MNK and NIN because it is a burst damage dealer, an add killer.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Firstly, I've been wanting to say this for a while now and it is not directed toward anyone in particular;

MNK = Low Burst / High Sustained

NIN = Mid Burst / Mid Sustained

DRG = High Burst / Low Sustained

So, stop judging DRGs on parse numbers as they reflect average damage per second (which is sustained). Thank you.
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As for fixing DRG, it needs 1) increased magic defense, on par with that of the other melee, with or without a higher physical defense and 2) Increase in spike damage potential as NIN treads a little too close to DRG numbers. Done.

P.S. After any and all changes, DRG DPS will, and should, continue to be lower than that of MNK and NIN because it is a burst damage dealer, an add killer.

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I totally agree - most people here suggested fixes that makes DRGs another MNK / NIN. We're really a burst damage role, but even as of now, our "burst damage" is still subpar compared to MNK and NIN.

NINs attack faster than DRGs and their weaponskills damage are close to theirs - AE deals 320 potency while FT deals 330 and Rai/Suiton is basically a burst damage every 20 secs. Also they have a constant +20% bonus damage buff that is a stance, which does not interrupt their rotations at all. Click and you're all set.

MNKs will hit anything for more than 700 dmg aside from Demo / ToD the moment they have GL3 and unless there's a huge downtime, GL3 is really easy to keep up.

So unless NINs weaponskill potencies are nerfed which will QQ all the NIN mains in the game, they gotta buff DRG up. The solution is simple, really, just as what you said: Increased potency on some of DRG weaponskills and MDEF which is at least on par with other melee classes or slightly more. I cannot emphasize the annoying fact that we wear "armor" yet we're weaker than people who wear robes / cloth / leather.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

MNK = Low Burst / High Sustained
NIN = Mid Burst / Mid Sustained
DRG = High Burst / Low Sustained

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Add values to this to see the discrepancies

MNK = 1/5 Burst (4/5 with PB), 5/5 Sustained, 3/5 Utility
NIN = 4/5 Burst, 4/5 Sustained, 4/5 Utility
DRG = 4/5 Burst, 2/5 Sustained, 2/5 Utility

Bonus damage from TA is considered the ninja's because it's additional damage the team would not have received without the NIN present

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Originally Posted by NolLacnala

Add values to this to see the discrepancies

MNK = 1/5 Burst (4/5 with PB), 5/5 Sustained, 3/5 Utility
NIN = 4/5 Burst, 4/5 Sustained, 4/5 Utility
DRG = 4/5 Burst, 2/5 Sustained, 2/5 Utility

Bonus damage from TA is considered the ninja's because it's additional damage the team would not have received without the NIN present

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So to summarize NINs are imbalanced / the better melee DPS class. They score 12/15, MNKs 9/15, and DRGs 8/15. IMO they could just give DRG an MDEF buff and leave it as it is and nerf NINs. To make DRGs relevant, they should have 5/5 burst - which is simply fixed by an increase in their weaponskills' potencies.

I highly doubt any NIN is bursting over 1.8k in a single GCD like DRG.

I see and like what the devs were trying to do here with our melees and I also agree with the community that the damage gap between each of them needs widening, but I wholly disagree with those "ratings".

We've done our part. Its' the dev. team's job to crunch the numbers and strike a proper balance. Let's leave it to them.

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

So to summarize NINs are imbalanced / the better melee DPS class. They score 12/15, MNKs 9/15, and DRGs 8/15. IMO they could just give DRG an MDEF buff and leave it as it is and nerf NINs. To make DRGs relevant, they should have 5/5 burst - which is simply fixed by an increase in their weaponskills' potencies.

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Or maybe it's just that "sustained damage" matters more. Also 87% of stats on the internet are made up, so those 1/5 4/5 and 5/5's are kind of...one person's opinion. One person's quickly-calculated eyeballed and barely backed up opinion.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

I highly doubt any NIN is bursting over 1.8k in a single GCD like DRG.

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DRG needs a GCD for that? Pshaw.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Or maybe it's just that "sustained damage" matters more.

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We should be judging by overall damage done between the jobs in an encounter, all bearing the same responsibilities of course.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Also 87% of stats on the internet are made up, so those 1/5 4/5 and 5/5's are kind of...one person's opinion. One person's quickly-calculated eyeballed and barely backed up opinion.

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^ This. And even that stat is made up.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

DRG needs a GCD for that? Pshaw.

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I lol'd, being a NIN myself. I guess we'd need to measure each job's damage done in a 3 second window (to be fair) to really tell who the burst king is, but I'll leave it to those who really care. My bet is still on DRG.

The first 30 seconds will determine who has the highest burst damage. I don't use a parse but from what I see ninja is pretty close to a dragoon for burst. Dragoon's Still on top but Ninjas can do it more frequently.

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Originally Posted by melflomil

The first 30 seconds will determine who has the highest burst damage. I don't use a parse but from what I see ninja is pretty close to a dragoon for burst. Dragoon's Still on top but Ninjas can do it more frequently.

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The first 30 seconds would be topped by a DRG because all of its off-GCDs are available, but after the first opening rotation's done, their DPS will gradually fell off and stabilize at a moderate level. Couple days ago I hit 540 @ T7 during pull while the MNK only deals around 400ish.

Burst damage is useless in Coils when the fights are 10+ minutes, total damage done to boss is what matters, and Dragoon here is about 10% lower DPS than Monk with much less raid utility and survival.

Not useless for add phases. O:)

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

I highly doubt any NIN is bursting over 1.8k in a single GCD like DRG.

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Trick Attack for 2k.
Raiton for 2k(2.4k with BRD). Yea, Ninjutsus are effected by Foe Requiem
Both are oGCD and can be done within one GCD if one desires.

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Originally Posted by melflomil

Not useless for add phases. O:)

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Not really a good argument since most dps know when the add phases are coming and save their cds so they can burn them and that includes the mnk and ninja. As a DRG, I have to go balls to the walls just to keep up with a decent monk. If DRG lacks raid utility it should compensate by having strong dps and survivability which it currently lacks. Definitely the "2.0 war" of the dps.

Plz SE DO NOT remove DRG positioning requirements, I love the fact we have to move around to get the most out of our dps, I love the fact we get punished for using a jump at the wrong time its mastering those things that can seperate a good dragon from a great one.

The class is so much fun and wud hate to see any drastic changes made to it. I dont care that we bring no utility to a raid, I dont care that the bard buff sucks, I jus wanna hit and hit hard!

jus gimme a buff to damage and magic defense and il be a happy DRG :) lol

I'd rather they just removed the positional for HT. The fact that DRG needs HT up for it's damage to even be relevant is "unique" enough.

EDIT: I mean they should still get a damage boost probably, I was just saying HT positional being removed is something I'd prefer. I could understand DRG's damage not being as strong as the other 2 melee and being utility for BRD dmg, but the fact that they have to keep up such a strict rotation on top of that is just crazy IMO.

I'd just like to folllow up on my previous post about Dragoon frustrations on Turn 13, now that my group has finally finished it.

First of all, the amount of HP you need to survive mechanics with our M.Def is laughable. I have 3 i130 left side items (Weapon, Body, Head), and 2 Penta-melded accessories for HP. With food, this brings my HP total to 7117 and this is the amount that I need to give my healers even an inch of wiggle space regarding unavoidable damage. If I am targeted with the Megaflare Rings during Bahamut Divebombs, it's not uncommon to take about 6700-6900 damage. The healers just don't have the time they need to top up the entire raid, and babysit me with additional Stoneskins for that hit.

Additionally, if I am ever the target for Megaflare Rings during the Flare Star or Final Phase of the fight I am literally unable to take damage from the pillars that spawn as it will kill me 100% of the time. This is a serious problem. Whereas every other class in the game can survive this mechanic I cannot. I have to be incredibly fast to move out after Megaflare Ring damage occurs, but before the pillar explodes for additional damage. If I am even a fraction of a second off I take damage and die. The White Mage has to be able to cast Medica II as the players who are are not stacking still have taken unavoidable single target damage from Megaflare need to be topped and won't be in range of Cure III, which is the only spell that would do sufficient healing to allow me to not die. The only time I am able to participate and assist with this mechanic is when I am not the target of a Megaflare Ring, period. Even then, the damage from Megaflare and the explosion from the pillar adds up to about 6000 which is a lot of healing.

Regarding positional requirements of Turn 13, there are a lot of windows where you lose Heavy Thrust/Disembowel because the tank has to move out of Megaflare ground circles and turns the boss, as well as times when you are the Earthshaker target. It's really annoying, but it's just a fact of life and as much as I would love to get rid of positional requirements of combos, I'm prepared to live with it. At the end of our kill, I ended 10% behind our Ninja which is about expected since we have comparable gear. The damage disparity is really painful when you're playing on a fight with strict DPS requirements like this and it really needs to be addressed soon.

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Originally Posted by jack891

Plz SE DO NOT remove DRG positioning requirements, I love the fact we have to move around to get the most out of our dps

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Originally Posted by Lori

I'd rather they just removed the positional for HT. The fact that DRG needs HT up for it's damage to even be relevant is "unique" enough.

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Well the positional requirements is one of the challenges that makes this game interesting IMO. It basically makes players to actually move around while doing stuff so fights won't be just lolstayandattackinoneposition. IMO it's just NINs are pretty OP when you think about it because they don't have any positional requirements other than Trick Attack and their attacks deal DRG attack potency while having the speed of a GL3 MNK, which you can somewhat control with a Ninjutsu cast unlike MNK that can lose it due to mechanics and has to build up from 0 to 3.

IMO the problem lies on how DRGs don't get anything when they fail a HT / ID. MNKs will keep their combo and build their stacks - their reward for landing their skills from the right position is a potency bonus. That makes sense because their playstyle is about building GL3 and sustain it. Giving more reward if you land a HT / ID would make DRGs quite broken since in my exp. I almost never had a problem on landing those - I even know some positions in fights where in case the boss turns, I'll use HT and it hits right before or after it turns. DRGs are more of a burst damage type so they need the damage quick / on-the-go.

So from my own POV, things that DRG really need for now are:
- More M.DEF: Now that I started FCoB, I noticed the issue of M.DEF. Imdugud's Electric Bursts would get me from 6k to 1k or less HP (Once I survived with 600 HP) while my other non-tank teammates who has like 500~1k HP less than I do were left with 2kish HP. So basically they got hit by 3k while I got hit by 5k which is like 1.5~2k difference and that's HUGE.
- Raw potency bonus. Same as what happened to BLMs but it will do more for DRGs than BLMs. Some fancy debuffs or buffs might be given to some of our weaponskills but IMO since DRGs are a burst damage class, they really need raw potency. What we have currently is: HT 150 > ID 180 > Dis 220 > CT 200/30 > TT 150 > VT 200 > FT 330. It would be helpful enough if it's buffed to: HT 150 > ID 180 > Dis 220 > CT 250/50 > TT 150 > VT 250 > FT 350 or so. And probably some buffs to the jumps like Jump 220 / SSD 200 / DFD 280ish. It's pretty funny that NINs has 320 / 360 / 400 potency attacks respectively, a constant 20% damage up, and dish it out at GL3 speed. They're like the perfect DPS - yet NIN fanboys get mad / downvotes when I mention this imbalance.

when I unlocked dragoon my first thought was "wow, jump is pretty lame!"

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

I'd just like to folllow up on my previous post about Dragoon frustrations on Turn 13, now that my group has finally finished it.

First of all, the amount of HP you need to survive mechanics with our M.Def is laughable. I have 3 i130 left side items (Weapon, Body, Head), and 2 Penta-melded accessories for HP. With food, this brings my HP total to 7117 and this is the amount that I need to give my healers even an inch of wiggle space regarding unavoidable damage. If I am targeted with the Megaflare Rings during Bahamut Divebombs, it's not uncommon to take about 6700-6900 damage. The healers just don't have the time they need to top up the entire raid, and babysit me with additional Stoneskins for that hit.

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I know that feeling.. I have 7.1k++ hp for T13, but is barely enough to survive the megaflare rings during Bahamut divebomb. getting 6700 - 6900 damage is considered lucky. I got hit by 71xx - 72xx megaflares at that phase. Healers and even PLD have to specially put on StoneSkin on me to survive =(

I wanna cry when i see this, and i am still trying to carry on with the DRG legacy(even there's never one)

I personlly wouldn't mind being a glass cannon although right now DRG is only the glass but not a cannon
and yes it has been very awkward that i never able to bring raid utility to the party except for showing and entertaining my teammates how awesome i could back flip

I've convinced myself drg is so weak because they only those truly committed to the job will play it as it is...

/cry

I still play dragoon, but as it is right now i am seeing less and less reason to. I've picked up ninja for endgame because i am not going to obstruct my static's progression by having them babysit my dragoon through coil. The only reason I play dragoon if I'm absolutely honest, is love for the job. Its such a damn cool job, and is a blast to play. I mean, we have a dragon punch.

I really, really hope the development team has had a read of this thread and others like it, that they have understood the legitimacy of these complaints, and that they finally do something about them. A couple of ideas:

-potency buffs. Full thrust costs 10tp more than aoelian edge and is only 10 potency more? Bullshit.
-mdef increase. Not an idea, a damn necessity
-change keen flurry so it buffs attack speed for a limited time? When i think 'keen flurry' i imagine a succession of quick attacks,not parries
-tp costs could do with being reduced
-change punishment on positionals to be more in line with those imposed on a monk.
-B4B; change it so that its like the venoms for ninja, or fists for monk. you click it on and off.

these are only regarding deeps and survivability, because as far as utility goes, i have no idea what they can actually give dragoons. Maybe change disembowel to a damage resist decrease of 10%?

If dragoon is to have no group utility then it needs to be the dps king. You simply cannot have a job that does less damage, takes more damage and offers nothing to the group.


The more i think about this the more pissed off i get, so i'll try not to, and i'll try not to say any more on the matter.

But thank you all for speaking as much and as well as you have, this diehard Dragoon is very, very grateful and a tad relieved that there were so many other people that felt the same way as he did and lent their voices to his. Whatever people may say, this is a great community and i am very, very happy to be a part of it.

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Originally Posted by beowulf81

I still play dragoon, but as it is right now i am seeing less and less reason to. I've picked up ninja for endgame because i am not going to obstruct my static's progression by having them babysit my dragoon through coil. The only reason I play dragoon if I'm absolutely honest, is love for the job. Its such a damn cool job, and is a blast to play. I mean, we have a dragon punch.

I really, really hope the development team has had a read of this thread and others like it, that they have understood the legitimacy of these complaints, and that they finally do something about them. A couple of ideas:

-potency buffs. Full thrust costs 10tp more than aoelian edge and is only 10 potency more? Bullshit.
-mdef increase. Not an idea, a damn necessity
-change keen flurry so it buffs attack speed for a limited time? When i think 'keen flurry' i imagine a succession of quick attacks,not parries
-tp costs could do with being reduced
-change punishment on positionals to be more in line with those imposed on a monk.
-B4B; change it so that its like the venoms for ninja, or fists for monk. you click it on and off.

these are only regarding deeps and survivability, because as far as utility goes, i have no idea what they can actually give dragoons. Maybe change disembowel to a damage resist decrease of 10%?

If dragoon is to have no group utility then it needs to be the dps king. You simply cannot have a job that does less damage, takes more damage and offers nothing to the group.

The more i think about this the more pissed off i get, so i'll try not to, and i'll try not to say any more on the matter.

But thank you all for speaking as much and as well as you have, this diehard Dragoon is very, very grateful and a tad relieved that there were so many other people that felt the same way as he did and lent their voices to his. Whatever people may say, this is a great community and i am very, very happy to be a part of it.

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Coming from a person who plays a DRG as if my character is my very own heart and soul... the feels man, the feels.

i support this thread. please make DRG relevant so i can play my ninja w/o feeling like im apart of the band wagon. If our (ninjas) speed boost lasts a minute i say the Heavy Thrust buff should last a minute. Also Disembowel an chaos thrust hit like wet noodles. The dmg should live up to their cool names. Also when 3.0 comes please dont add anymore jumps, thatd just be lazy, and if you guys do the try to be creative with it. dont just take the jump animation and add flames + lightning. thatd be cool but it just adds to the jump spam.

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Originally Posted by beowulf81

If dragoon is to have no group utility then it needs to be the dps king. You simply cannot have a job that does less damage, takes more damage and offers nothing to the group.

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This is so true, and make me mad.....Yoshida, what that dragoon do wrong that deserve this shit? when the buff coming in? I dont see any schedule update till now

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Originally Posted by beowulf81

-potency buffs. Full thrust costs 10tp more than aoelian edge and is only 10 potency more? Bullshit.

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Do not just point fingers at NIN, MNK also has low TP skills and the main reason for this is low GCD, like around 2 seconds low.

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Originally Posted by beowulf81

-mdef increase. Not an idea, a damn necessity

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I'd rather yall get some damage down utility then just a buff to mdef.

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Originally Posted by beowulf81

-change keen flurry so it buffs attack speed for a limited time? When i think 'keen flurry' i imagine a succession of quick attacks,not parries

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Do you want to make NIN and MNK stronger then they already are?

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Originally Posted by beowulf81

-tp costs could do with being reduced

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Traited invigorate along with goad (everyone and their mom playing NIN, its not hard to find one) makes this point trivial.

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Originally Posted by beowulf81

-change punishment on positionals to be more in line with those imposed on a monk.

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In between on this one. Your entire playstyle is based on precision, taking that out would mess with the play style. It would be nice to have, but I think it would ruin the "fun" of the class.

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Originally Posted by beowulf81

-B4B; change it so that its like the venoms for ninja, or fists for monk. you click it on and off.

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Again, do you want to make MNK and NIN stronger?

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Again, do you want to make MNK and NIN stronger?

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This is why balances to the class can and will only happen inside of Dragoon-only abilities. This thread is full of people wanting to make Keen Flurry and Feint good without realizing that they can be equipped by every other physical class in the game.

If anybody is expecting anything more than straight potency increases and an increase in our passive Magic Defense, they are hoping for too much. I don't expect any utility to be added either. After our second T13 kill I was asked to switch to Monk in light of a weapon dropping so thanks SE for being slow on fixes.

Their heart is in the right place but any buff to skills that can be cross classed would be considered unacceptable conduct on SE's part.

The positionals I am also 50/50 on, for one you should reward skilled play but not punish random rng boss turns. Monk system is a good example of this, u don't lose the combo if u miss the positional but u do miss the extra potency, Drg should be this way.

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If dragoon is to have no group utility then it needs to be the dps king. You simply cannot have a job that does less damage, takes more damage and offers nothing to the group.

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Then i guess black mage should be up there with dragoon

Apocatastasis, Eye for an Eye, and Virus

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Originally Posted by Houston009

Apocatastasis, Eye for an Eye, and Virus

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An actual stun and increasing bard's damage by 10% permanently. a most likely incoming magic defence buff aswell as having more hp overall.
The grass is always greener on the other side
Lets not mention BLM's dps being lowered when any sort of movement is involved.
As for virus. It's funny you even mention it because your raid will hate you if you even think about using it over your smn/sch friends

If the argument is the less utility the more dps then there's no reason ninja and monk should deal more damage than dragoon and blm

So if a BLM viruses adds like let's say Bennu in t12, smn/sch will be pissed?

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Originally Posted by hallena

Then i guess black mage should be up there with dragoon

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for AOE capablity, blm is king.

for anything capability, drg is a wet noodle with less magic-based survivability than a crafter.

I'm not saying dragoon shouldn't get a buff but don't even bother saying less utility = more damage or else the argument about blm should be "i should get a damage buff because when i move my dps goes to shit so i should deal more damage than everyone else when i don't move"
or
"i should outdps monk because they bring more utility than me aswell as being more mobile"

A stun and 10% damage increase to bard is group utility whenever you like it or not. The original argument i quoted was less utility = more dps, Somehow this turned into dragoon vs Blm utility yet my point was if blm has less utility than monk then why should the less utility = more damage argument only apply to dragoon when several classes have less utility than monks

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Originally Posted by hallena

An actual stun and increasing bard's damage by 10% permanently. a most likely incoming magic defence buff aswell as having more hp overall.

Lets not mention BLM's dps being lowered when any sort of movement is involved.
As for virus. It's funny you even mention it because your raid will hate you if you even think about using it over your smn/sch friends

If the argument is the less utility the more dps then there's no reason ninja and monk should deal more damage than dragoon and blm

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Disembowel does not increase bard overall damage by 10% (does not buff DoT). Stun is basically useless for DRG in end game content, we use Leg Sweep and Spineshatter Dive for the slight dps increase/gap closer rather than using them for stun.
BLM dps is lower when any sort of movement is involved, but didn't SE buff BLM for this issue? Bear in mind that most class will also lose some dps when any sort of movement is involve (excluding bard).
As for virus, I don't see any issue of BLM virus, you could rotate BLM virus and smn/sch virus without having issue of antibody. My raid has 2 BLM and 1 SCH, they rotate their virus and we have never encounter any so called being hated by smn/sch friends.

Currently, they are comparing DRG with NIN and MNK. As the argument is why bother bringing a DRG as melee when they deal lesser dps, prone to dying from m.atk and having lesser utility compared to bringing NIN and MNK. Mentioning BLM might be an off topic issue.

Off Topic : BLM have Apoc, Virus, Manawall, Manaward, Eye for an eye and possessing high DPS on AoE attack

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Originally Posted by Cyfer

Off Topic : BLM have Apoc, Virus, Manawall, Manaward, Eye for an eye and possessing high DPS on AoE attack

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and don't forget; BLM technically has infinite damage potential in terms of being able to continue dealing damage. Their resource - mana - is infinite, due to the ways in which Umbral Ice / Astral Fire work. A dragoon attacking 100% uptime will need assistance from other party members - black mage just benefits from them to increase their damage further (Foe's Requiem, Dragon Kick)

But yes; Apoc, Virus [Situational], Eye for an Eye are all rather impressive raid-utility tools. Still, I'd like to see Apoc be either AoE or have a bit more of an impressive effect. It's almost as underwhealming as DRG's disembowel is. <.<