Rescue needs to go away.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Provoke used to merely put the user at the top of the list but not anymore, idr the exact number but on top of putting the tank at the top it also generates a crazy amount of enimity. Something you'd have to afk for a while to have a dps/healer steal it from you.

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Is it "a crazy amount"? I know that it used to just be Current top +1, but thought it was changed to something akin to 2000 potency (in addition to moving you to the top), which would be 20,000 damage to take back if they just used that. Certainly isn't "nothing", but I just want to understand if that changed.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Provoke generates a ton of enemity while shirk only transfers 25% of it, a tank won't lose aggro of something by shirking, that's why during a tank swap you NEED a Provoke but Shirk is optional. And it's very easy to avoid being killed by shirk shenanigans if you pay attention to what the tank is doing... And it's kinda jarring when anybody is standing here doing nothing.

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This is indeed the case in a two tank situation, of course this is provided the other tank even has their stance on. To be completely honest they do not even need to shirk to cause any issue, just turning their stance on and off could cause issues.

It is not easy to avoid being shirked. If the tank is turning there stance on and off during the pull. I can replicate this within the game in a test environment. You run in with your stance provoke one enemy you can even aoe, turn stance off for a moment while everyone is attacking the mobs than shirk turn stance on so after the healer and dps die and you cause a wipe they will only see that your tank stance is on, and be unsure what happened. The mobs in many places are larger and if you play a smaller character it is even harder to see if you are being shirked. If you have everyones effects turned on you might not see a shirk amidst casts or mudras. Everything will seem fine until you wonder how you died in that moment. There stance is on right now. So you will than begin to watch after wards. You might, or you might just think the healer might have not healed on time and someone made a simple honest mistake. Does everyone play this game always looking out for attackers? I sure don't, but maybe I should be suspicious of everyone so I can see when a tank is being a child.

Castrum was very popular for this kind of behavior, if you played scholar with constant fairy healing drawing aggro, everyone aoe ing on the move, a simple voke after turning your stance on and off while pulling numerous mobs will allow for a shirk to kill someone. You can make it look like you are aoe ing the mobs without hitting them. This happened frequently when I suppose school let out or something and everyone queued up with their fc to troll people in castrum now they settle for alliance raids.

In two tank situations. I was tanking for the first time within titania. I asked who would be the main tank, the other tank said they would. During the course of the fight they would turn their stance on and off causing a wipe. I was there for my first time, so I was focusing on what the mechanics were not if they tank was keeping their stance on throughout the entire trial. Who is actively thinking that they are going to get a tank that is turning their stance on and off. I got yelled at for not having my stance on when there was clearly in the chat who was main tanking or not, realizing my mistake of trusting someone else to tank, I just tanked it myself because I at least know how to keep my stance on during a fight and pick up ads. It took literally 3 wipes for people to realize what was going on. I just assumed too many people oopsied mechanics because they were and it wasn't helping the situation, but the tanks random shirk and turning stance on and off caused further issues in this instance. I wasn't watching the tank. I was not baby sitting. I didn't even think this was a thing until the new healer mentioned they were doing it. There it was stance on stance off. Why did I trust someone else to tank? My mistake.

No one initially will assume when going into a duty that someone is just going to do something like this. I am not actively always watching the tank when I am playing dps, I am attempting to learn my rotation not watch to see if the tank is going to try to kill me today because it is funny I guess. I am not going into an alliance raid watching every single tank in each alliance to make sure they are doing their job and not being a child and shirking people during it and killing half the alliance because it is 'haha oh so funny. We iz drunk sowwys ooo woooh'

You are thinking mostly if someone is playing properly and aoeing a pack normally yes it a bit hard to pull of of them, unless you just voke one mob than shirk if regen is on you perfect. You don't really even need shirk. The person trying to kill the healer in keeper of the lake and the whm getting aggro sure looked like they were dead after getting shirked.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

No one is getting an aneurysm over a rescue but it's very evident that it doesn't feel good a majority of the time, and I find it ironic that some of yall go "but think of the poor well-meaning healer's experience! heartless psychopath!" when distaste towards rescue is expressed but the experience of the rescued person is "no big deal, go seek therapy, you have anger issue".

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This entire thread is one big aneurism over Rescue. Being chain stun locked or cc'ed causes mild feist at the worst, being wrongly Rescued by healer hardly even registers. My first thought is usually; "Welp, they tried I suppose"

It is not "Ugh control of my character was just taken away from me. That healer is playing the game for me by the twelve such abilities should not exist!"

I assume non malicious intent from random strangers first until it becomes obvious they did not mean well. Thought this was normal?

See;

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

I'm not specifically talking about rescue, I'm talking about just making you do something you don't want to because THEY think it's the right thing. It could be as simple as popping your buff everyone cooldown for you, or changing your target to the "right" one. Would you be OK with that?

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

How does giving the example that the majority of the time I am rescued, It is either done maliciously, ignorantly, or unneeded weaken the argument for saying I don't want OTHER people deciding where I stand

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Originally Posted by VerdeLuck

The other is the result of someone taking control of my character from me, cancelling my cast, and killing my character. I get all the consequences for the healer "accidentally" pulling me into a one shot mechanic or a pit and they have no risk or consequences from it.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

News to me. It interrupts my cast and displaces me without my consent, with a net negative effect on me 95% of the time. Not unlike a debuff.

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Big difference between how this reads and the mild irritation being stun locked in Dark Souls can cause. It sounds like incredibly unhealthy way to view an action occurring in a fricken video game. Many apologies if that ruffled the jimmies? Reality does stink some of the times.

Yes, I do think of the poor healer that might lose yet another unique utility skill because trogs cannot stop malding over complete nonsense issues. I do not sit there postulating about every botched Rescue attempt then proceed to attribute it to malice from team members. I think someone going on big angry tirades about their pixel character being yeeted miiiiight have anger issues of the short guy variety.

Now we can sit here pretending we are not saying things that we in fact are all day long. Gas lighting or whatever the buzzword of the year is. Now that is marginally more irritating then botched Rescue attempts "taking control of my character away from me."

Perhaps small bit of confirmation bias going on here too. That one is tossed about most frequently but I feel it is highly applicable this time.

TL;DR - Sure sure I get that it annoys you and many others.. had no clue if there is honesty. However if the choice is lose a skill most useful or get over it I am going to have to pick get over it.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I'm not telling you anything. I'm only pointing out what you're saying yourself. If you actually take a step back and listen to yourself, what I'm trying to tell might start sinking in. Regardless of what you might think, and your own experiences, Rescue was not put into the game to ruin your day.

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I never said it was, you however ARE telling me how to present what I want to say and how I want to say it by calling my experiences invalid.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Also, I never said that what you claim never happens because I never experienced it. I said I don't find your claim to be true, because I've never experienced it.

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are you reading what you just wrote? So you'd rather put it as "you are lying"?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

And how can I? If I never experienced a healer using Rescue maliciously, then how on Earth could I possibly conclude that it's true? At best, I can believe you. And I don't. I think a healer probably had best intentions, you died anyway, and now you think Rescue is a horrible skill and needs to be deleted.

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and again.. putting a position forward for me I did not state. I wouldn't miss it if it was gone. I have experienced it being misused or poorly used more than I've experienced it helping. If it was up to me... but it's not.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

What I KNOW actually happens with Rescue is healers using it unsuccessfully i.e. the players still takes damage or dies. In these cases, the healer is just trying to help, because you're in the wrong spot, or greeding and they are unaware you are.

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maybe.. read what I'm typing then instead of trying to invalidate it or dismiss it. I have experienced people using it to specifically get me killed. I have experienced people using it to change how I tank, or position myself as DPS. Generally if someone does this ACCIDENTALLY you get an "oops" or a "my bad"... never was forthcoming. Overall I don't bother scolding or complaining or reporting these offenses because as I said they ARE rare. But that's not that they don't happen.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

I assume non malicious intent from random strangers first until it becomes obvious they did not mean well. Thought this was normal?

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Someone "rescue"ing me into the titan knockback or into the Fear on Leviathan from a completely safe position is relatively obvious. Someone pulling mobs as a healer and then rescuing me to them is most definitely them trying to make me go at their pace. I don't make quick assumptions, but I do call a spade a spade when I see it. Will people admit doing such? Unlikely, since admission through chat is actionable by a GM. However in context it's obvious what the goal is. If someone botches a rescue because of ping it's usually pretty obvious they thought I wasn't safe or they simply misjudged where I'd be put, it's hard to accidentally do the things that take out a reasonably aware and competent party member, AND the couple times people have accidentally done things that killed me? They apologized quickly and emphatically.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

It sounds like incredibly unhealthy way to view an action occurring in a fricken video game. Many apologies if that ruffled the jimmies? Reality does stink some of the times.

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only if you attribute the discussion to "malding" rather than people giving their experiences and observations. It's almost like you're attributing motivation and emotion where there isn't any... .. huh.. seems like someone was accusing others of that.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Yes, I do think of the poor healer that might lose yet another unique utility skill because trogs cannot stop malding over complete nonsense issues. I do not sit there postulating about every botched Rescue attempt then proceed to attribute it to malice from team members. I think someone going on big angry tirades about their pixel character being yeeted miiiiight have anger issues of the short guy variety.

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"short guy"... says the investigatory lalafel.

Jokes aside I suggest, yet again, look at what you are blamethrowing at others and then doing yourself.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

TL;DR - Sure sure I get that it annoys you and many others.. had no clue if there is honesty. However if the choice is lose a skill most useful or get over it I am going to have to pick get over it.

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The chances of Rescue getting removed actually increase the more people engage with this thread... so maybe let it die then? All in all it's a minor complaint that pops up whenever someone gets a particularly annoying rescue applied to them. I will always chime in that the majority of its uses I see are to annoy and control and not to help others. KNOWING that I do not notice when it happens to others, but as someone who looks back at deaths and tries to figure out how to not die again, it's a good idea to also notice when someone saves your bacon with rescue... but it's also very noticeable when the only thing you could have done to not die is not have someone in your party.

Pick your battles and follow your own advice.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Someone "rescue"ing me into the titan knockback or into the Fear on Leviathan from a completely safe position is relatively obvious. Someone pulling mobs as a healer and then rescuing me to them is most definitely them trying to make me go at their pace. I don't make quick assumptions, but I do call a spade a spade when I see it. Will people admit doing such? Unlikely, since admission through chat is actionable by a GM. However in context it's obvious what the goal is. If someone botches a rescue because of ping it's usually pretty obvious they thought I wasn't safe or they simply misjudged where I'd be put, it's hard to accidentally do the things that take out a reasonably aware and competent party member.

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Ask them to stop doing that? Get over it? Move on? Report for obstruction of gameplay or which ever clause in TOS is applicable? Being realistic here how often is this actually occurring to you? Is it every other duty - about every ten duties - somewhere around once in one hundred duties - with such infrequency you can scarcely recall the last time this occurred? The comment about pulling though.. tis painting a picture most clear in the minds eye.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

only if you attribute the discussion to "malding" rather than people giving their experiences and observations. It's almost like you're attributing motivation and emotion where there isn't any... .. huh.. seems like someone was accusing others of that.

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Look, already stated I am not playing this game. You and others can pretend they do not feel strongly about this until the cows come home move in and rob you blind. Please do continue being about as witty as pre Shadowbringers Alphinaud. This Lala does so love good memes.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

"short guy"... says the investigatory lalafel.

Jokes aside I suggest, yet again, look at what you are blamethrowing at others and then doing yourself.

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Going straight for the Lala card? Uh oh did I strike a nerve? You were not even the person I replied to. Huh! Who am I blaming for what now? Will mechanist be getting new skill called blamethrower that inflicts Misery on all targets within a cone? That sounds kinda cool!

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

The chances of Rescue getting removed actually increase the more people engage with this thread... so maybe let it die then?

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Thread engagement alone does not dictate this, the reactions of those within said thread however might. Sure sure though! Pretty much done here, whole thread is causing me feist and unlike many others will not sit here pretending I feel nothing about the topic. Have the strangest feeling in the pit of my everything that you or someone will keep making their rounds to squeak in the last word though.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

All in all it's a minor complaint that pops up whenever someone gets a particularly annoying rescue applied to them. I will always chime in that the majority of its uses I see are to annoy and control and not to help others. KNOWING that I do not notice when it happens to others, but as someone who looks back at deaths and tries to figure out how to not die again, it's a good idea to also notice when someone saves your bacon with rescue... but it's also very noticeable when the only thing you could have done to not die is not have someone in your party.

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Alright! Gotcha! So long as you can understand that the frequency you seem to encounter rescue trolling may be unique to yourself and not the experience shared by most.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Pick your battles and follow your own advice.

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Whatever you say partner.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Overall I don't bother scolding or complaining or reporting these offenses because as I said they ARE rare. But that's not that they don't happen.

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I've noticed it seems to happen in waves. Usually when a YouTuber or streamer does it and gets a big laugh people will try to copy what they did for the next couple weeks. I had a period of time where it felt like every other Labyrinth run someone would get Sage swapped from the safe platform into the ancient flare on Phlegethon.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

The chances of Rescue getting removed actually increase the more people engage with this thread... so maybe let it die then?

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Wait are you saying if they get the lgbt thread long enough, or the give me my warrior cone aoe back thread gains much more traction someone will listen? I do not believe your lies! This is false hope, they only pay attention to the worst possible things they could and listen to that. Like if I made a huge thread about Yoshi giving everyone sub money back for every time they were stunned, slept, or turned into a frog in palace of the dad. Would we be refunded for all of that lost play time? Well that is a bad example that would be a good thing.....ah I have it we have to make a thread just removing all of the buttons or remove all tanks/healers. Maybe give healers more heal buttons and take away all damage buttons. I am ready to go scorched earth here. They already removed fluid aura, rescue is too big brained, we need healers to be more simple for beginners! Yes! Remove everything. I am going to make a thread soon. Look forward to it. You have given me the hope I needed. If I can't have my stuff back than no one can have anything! Mwhahahaha!

Rescue is fine. Been running Alliance, Raid, MSQ, Expert, and Trial roulettes solo queue for yeeeeears and hardly see it used, in fact I will safely say I've seen it used more when I queue with friends or FC mates than I do without.

As far as personal use I only ever use it on someone who consistently gets smacked by obvious "don't stand here" mechanics and I've long since grown tired of healing/shielding/raising to the point of me stopping any solo heals on said person. I've made it a light humorous threat for those in my party if we don't have 4 people on pads in Labyrinth "We need 4 on pads, don't make me be that healer" to which I usually get some laughs and our fourth body.

People are being overly sensitive and exaggerating how often it's used me thinks.

what it needs, personally, is to be done over from scratch programming wise and get rid of the ridiculous stickiness it has, half the time rescuing someone legitimately slows their movement down more than improves it

Absolutely not.