Current top 100th percentile on P1S since 6.08 buffs

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Originally Posted by Makrar

I looked at the top 10 speed kills for each savage boss and totalled the amount of times each job appear across the 50 fights

Data reads as JOB - Number of times in top 10 / that number as a % of overall top 50

SAM - 14 / 28%
DRG - 11 / 22%
NIN - 6 / 12%
MNK - 29 / 58%
RPR - 40 / 80%

BLM - 26 / 52%
RDM - 20 / 40%
SMN - 4 / 8%

MCH - 0 / 0%
DNC - 14 / 28%
BRD - 36 / 72%

DRK - 48 / 96%
GUN - 39 / 78%
PLD - 2 / 40%
WAR - 11 / 22%

WHM - 5 /10%
SCH - 29 / 58%
AST - 35 / 70%
SGE - 31 / 62%

Overall for casters (the role i know the most) i think theres a surprisingly large amount of red mages in these kills (at least more than i expected anyways). If SMN was increased to sit inbetween BLM and RDM then you would potentially see SMN canablise spots from BLM and RDM and end up with a fairly healthy caster split.

Theres no hope for machinist however.

The average party comp is currently exactly 2 melee / 1 caster / 1 ranged which suggests that people have mostly taken 1 ranged and caster for the role buff (or the lack of good 2nd options exist from those roles)

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As a 4-year smn main seeing smn that low hurts me so much but I'm honestly not surprised. Between rdm and smn, rdm is the better choice since it has better on-demand utility, better rez capabilities, and has a more flexible rotation. Even tho smn recent buffs has bought it near if not even with rdm's dps, rdm still has the advantage in all the current fights over smn. I mean I used to think I would never raid as another job other than smn but this tier Im going as rdm bc of all the reasons I listed. Having the ability to hold my melee combos for buff windows in fights like P2S feels amazing compared to having to disjoint your bust from buff windows as smn has too.

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Originally Posted by Blutiful

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Ok but back in Stormblood, Machinist and Bards were the one gaining all the extra damage from Piercing Debuff when it should have been a taxe to give to the Dragoon. They made the change in ShB because Dancer was a living single player padding machine.

https://i.imgur.com/ZSKGHaQ.png

To me, aDPS is simply the raw number you did including all buffs. rDPS is your real DPS after they distributed the extra damage you did from toher buffs. Pure firepower jobs do great because all they bring is power. That didn't exist in stormblood. You can see this log, there is only DPS, no rDPS and no aDPS. My Piercing debuff damage buff on the bard. All that extra damage I provided as a Dragoon was give to the Bard.

Stormblood FFlogs

That's why back in 4.x, BLM and SAM were never picked. Because the logs made them look bad. If you look at that log, how much lower that BRD would be? He's 82th and the NIN is 83th percentile, only 100 DPS lower. Remember, that's with 5% of my piercing debuff so that's like 250 DPS lower. Fun stuff, Ranged Physical were kinda doing that amount of damage in ShB, lower damage without piercing debuff. Ranged Phys was never compensated for the lost of Piercing Debuff. I personally loathed having to play DRG just to make another job better because his log was suddenly orange because of me and not having me be credited. That's why I went MNK.

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Originally Posted by Makrar

I looked at the top 10 speed kills for each savage boss and totalled the amount of times each job appear across the 50 fights

Data reads as JOB - Number of times in top 10 / that number as a % of overall top 50

SAM - 14 / 28%
DRG - 11 / 22%
NIN - 6 / 12%
MNK - 29 / 58%
RPR - 40 / 80%

BLM - 26 / 52%
RDM - 20 / 40%
SMN - 4 / 8%

MCH - 0 / 0%
DNC - 14 / 28%
BRD - 36 / 72%

DRK - 48 / 96%
GUN - 39 / 78%
PLD - 2 / 40%
WAR - 11 / 22%

WHM - 5 /10%
SCH - 29 / 58%
AST - 35 / 70%
SGE - 31 / 62%

Overall for casters (the role i know the most) i think theres a surprisingly large amount of red mages in these kills (at least more than i expected anyways). If SMN was increased to sit inbetween BLM and RDM then you would potentially see SMN canablise spots from BLM and RDM and end up with a fairly healthy caster split.

Theres no hope for machinist however.

The average party comp is currently exactly 2 melee / 1 caster / 1 ranged which suggests that people have mostly taken 1 ranged and caster for the role buff (or the lack of good 2nd options exist from those roles)

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Not surprised there. People play with meta in mind more than fun factor when you optimize speed clears. RDM is lower DPS than BLM but is still extremely viable. SMN is just a mess. MCH is just dead since 5.0. DNC got a breath of fresh air. MNK/RPR Melee duo is the meta.

I think 40% for 2 runs on PLD is wrong lol, but yeah. Tank meta for DPS is GNB/DRK anyways. Only healers has some variety since AST/SAG, AST/SCH and SCH/SAG works. With an advantage to SCH.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Ok but back in Stormblood, Machinist and Bards were the one gaining all the extra damage from Piercing Debuff when it should have been a taxe to give to the Dragoon. They made the change in ShB because Dancer was a living single player padding machine.

https://i.imgur.com/ZSKGHaQ.png

To me, aDPS is simply the raw number you did including all buffs. rDPS is your real DPS after they distributed the extra damage you did from toher buffs. Pure firepower jobs do great because all they bring is power. That didn't exist in stormblood. You can see this log, there is only DPS, no rDPS and no aDPS. My Piercing debuff damage buff on the bard. All that extra damage I provided as a Dragoon was give to the Bard.

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Couple things.

It doesn't matter what ADPS is to you, what ADPS actually is is defined right there in the article I linked that you absolutely hadn't read, because you obviously didn't know ADPS wasn't what was used back then, because you claimed it was, and you're now trying to play it off as if you already knew. The raw number you did, including all buffs, is your DPS, and yes, that is what Stormblood and earlier used, as I included in my original post, but it is not ADPS. ADPS is a different metric that excludes single target padding, and in the post I quoted, of you, you were trying to say ADPS is a bad metric because of single target padding, which it excludes. You were just outright wrong, lol.

Also, you continue to cite the example of the Dragoon piercing debuff, and yes, if RDPS had existed back then, the RDPS would have been given to the dragoon - but that doesn't explain why you're in this topic insisting to people ADPS is something ADPS isn't. You can't make up your own definition for this term.

Before you start to cite numbers, learn how to read them.

As for this thread overall's original purpose, lol balancing complaints around max parses on a 100% uptime dummy fight, the literal day of the balance patch.

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Originally Posted by Blutiful

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Ok?

Honestly rDPS is the main focus, not aDPS. Like, people aren't going to care specifically about aDPS. Like, I know my AST in group will save his single target cards on my 60s and 180s because unlike the BRD, I have Phoenix up on my SMN and it provides a crap ton more damage at the current time because my AST is a smart cookie and he knows where the taxes are juicier. Same for melee cards, they go to the MNK but RoF is a 60s CD. aDPS is extremely specific and rDPS is just better to look at.

Now, care to go back on the topic? It's not that I didn't check, it's I elected to ignore your point because it didn't matter to the topic which is, that Ranged Physical and caster is currently unbalanced and even if you were to put a MCH with a SMN in the same party and MCH is a pure firepower DPS. SMN would benefit more on the 60s on personal buffs because SMN DPS is a rollercoaster. It has high peaks and low peaks.

Also, not a single target buffer expert myself, I don't play AST anyways.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Ok?

Honestly rDPS is the main focus, not aDPS. Like, people aren't going to care specifically about aDPS.

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Each category has merit, which is why they are included.

NDPS is a good measure of a job's raw strength in a pug scenario, as it's solely your own ability to play the job minus buffs. This was added recently because it's harder to determine whether a job like Black Mage and a job like Red Mage stack up in uncoordinated groups / PF play.

RDPS is a good measure of a job's overall strength, which is why it's the primary metric used for FFLogs.

ADPS is a good measure for a player capitalizing on party buff windows, because both R/NDPS generally favor selfish play for non-buffing jobs, which is less useful if your goal is optimization.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Each category has merit, which is why they are included.

NDPS is a good measure of a job's raw strength in a pug scenario, as it's solely your own ability to play the job minus buffs. This was added recently because it's harder to determine whether a job like Black Mage and a job like Red Mage stack up in uncoordinated groups / PF play.

RDPS is a good measure of a job's overall strength, which is why it's the primary metric used for FFLogs.

ADPS is a good measure for a player capitalizing on party buff windows, because both R/NDPS generally favor selfish play for non-buffing jobs, which is less useful if your goal is optimization.

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Yeah xD I knew that already, I don't need the definition on fflogs to tell me I'd better hold my bursts for jobs with single target buffs. I curse myself to have never hold 4 festers on 2 minute buffs windows. Buffs also amplify each other. aDPS does have merit but for a job, lets say BLM or SAM, me knowing my actual DPS without single target buff doesn't really tell me anything. That information is more for DRG/DNC/AST and, quite frankly, they probably should educate those DPS that it's important for them! That's optimizing talk anyways.

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

People are way too obsessed with these numbers. Well here's my take:

1: Everyone could clear all the raids before buffs so this does nothing but make everything easier and help improve community perception. Unless you're competing to be the best in the world this is meaningless.

2: Machinist and Summoner are much easier to pull good numbers on compared to melee or Black Mage. Many of the pugs I've been in have had SMNs at or near the top compared to others because they're so easy, saying they're not worth bringing to a group because the best SMN in the world isn't pulling numbers as high as the best Monk is the world is beyond ridiculous - so long as they're not dying SMNs will be more consistently good.

3: MCH is fine. It was fine before and it's better now. All phys ranged are relatively low (probably due to all but guaranteed 100% uptime) plus Bard and Dancer's performance is dependent on others so it makes sense for their best case scenario to be better than MCH.

4: Monk got a buff to one ability that isn't used often, it's not that big of a deal and will have a bigger impact in groups that play better and focus buffs on the Monk. Compared to MCH and DNC who got buffs to abilities they use more often which will have more impact on the average player.

5: The goal here imo is to balance the average players which make up the majority, not the literal best in the world who btw scum parses, that's not what most players should be going by.

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It's always nice to see some common sense.

For me it's no wonder why we don't get more diverse job design when silly numbers like this (and over a ridiculously little span of time) causes players to go crazy like that. What does it even matter if one job is better than another? Is it that impossible to imagine you bring the job you're most comfortable with as opposed to the one with the biggest numbers? Sure, encounters/jobs need balance so we can clear/use them but this is so overboard, I'm sorry.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

It's always nice to see some common sense.

For me it's no wonder why we don't get more diverse job design when silly numbers like this (and over a ridiculously little span of time) causes players to go crazy like that. What does it even matter if one job is better than another? Is it that impossible to imagine you bring the job you're most comfortable with as opposed to the one with the biggest numbers? Sure, encounters/jobs need balance so we can clear/use them but this is so overboard, I'm sorry.

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Are you sure about that? Because so far, everyone who says something like "x job is so easier to pull good numbers" don't play it so they have a biased opinion because they see a simple rotation. Should I check this guy which job he plays? :\ Ah yes, the guy that plays Reaper which is absolutely easy to play that's gonna say that MCH and SMN are easier to pull numbers.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Are you sure about that? Because so far, everyone who says something like "x job is so easier to pull good numbers" don't play it so they have a biased opinion because they see a simple rotation. Should I check this guy which job he plays? :\ Ah yes, the guy that plays Reaper which is absolutely easy to play that's gonna say that MCH and SMN are easier to pull numbers.

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You can say the exact same thing about all the people in this thread that exclusively play pranged making claims that melee/caster uptime is easy. People in this game have a horrible habit of thinking everything outside of what they play is easy without giving a true objective thought towards a job/roles specific difficulty with regards to rotation, uptime, optimization, etc.

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Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono

You can say the exact same thing about all the people in this thread that exclusively play pranged making claims that melee/caster uptime is easy. People in this game have a horrible habit of thinking everything outside of what they play is easy without giving a true objective thought towards a job/roles specific difficulty with regards to rotation, uptime, optimization, etc.

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That's true, it's best to say to some degree that if you main a job, you should have spent a good amount of time to get used to the job so you can feel comfy enough that it's easy to play. That includes melee dps, phys. ranged and caster. If I were to invest 80% of my time on Monk, I can tell you I'd find Monk pretty easy to play. That means, that complexity of a job has no worth! Thanks for confirming :<