A little scared of the future

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Originally Posted by Dirwen

I have to agree with this if you hate randoms so much why even pug? If they put themselves out there then they are the only ones to blame if they meet others not on their own skill level.

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There is a difference between someone not being on your own skill level in a dungeon - and someone in an endgame dungeon/scenario not being able to perform basics of both their job and general gameplay. Those basics are something that you should reasonably expect, because you should be able to expect that someone contributes to the run in a meanigful way - otherwise you should be okay with your tank just going afk at the entrance of the dungeon, after all, if you didnt want to play with someone whos afk, you should have brought a full party!

I will never understand why people are okay and even defending absolute subpar gameplay.
In a dungeon it wont bother me the slightest if a ninja isnt capable of keeping trick attack up - but if they're just standing in a bossroom and spamming their AoE because they like the animation and they dont want to press more than one button, thats a problem.
If a BLM cant cast triple-Flare - so what? But if a BLM hasnt figured out that his fire-spells are the important ones by level 70... nope.
...the list could go on - DoTs for bard, smn and scholar; actually tanking mobs for pld, war and drk; keeping everyone alive while still contributing damage for ast, scholar and whm...

Luckly, those bad eggs are rare - because, again, we're not talking about perfect gameplay here, we're talking about a kind of person who didnt learn a thing in 70 levels, is now a libality to 3/7/23 other people and acts defensive when given advice or called out on it. Such a person doesnt need to be defended, they backed themself into that corner and they can step out of it anytime they want.

I dont hate randoms, most of the time, I dont even really notice that they're there. We hop in our dungeon, do our things, we get out. Because most of the time everyone is capable in a way that can be expected at level 70.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Then don't pug. and don't queue with such people. You'll NEVER have the right to insist they dont play. ever.

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Originally Posted by Dirwen

I have to agree with this if you hate randoms so much why even pug? If they put themselves out there then they are the only ones to blame if they meet others not on their own skill level.

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So it is fine for people to waste other peoples time with beeing lazy, but it is not ok to tell them that they are wasting my time? What kind of weird logic is this? We all pay a sub in this game so we all should be that polite that we don't waste other peoples time with beeing lazy.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

The common thread between the two dungeons is terrible healers have an especially bad time, which is only compounded when other roles don't know their buttons. This is perfectly fine, as anyone able to even make it to either dungeon has had more than enough time to read their tooltips.

There's a minor excuse to be had with skips in the vault (though they should be kicked so they can read their tooltips), but even that flimsy justification just doesn't apply to the Burn.

Simply put, any healer that can't heal through the Burn needs to be sent back to Bardham's Mettle, Doma Castle, Ala Mhigo, and Castrum for remedial lessons. Other roles can pick up some things from those dungeons, as well, but the healer in particular has things to learn in each of those. This includes people that afk leveled through HOH or lower level roulettes; if you level something to 70 and didn't bother to learn anything as you went, or perhaps alt-geared it to get past the ilvl gate, I'll relish a vote in favor of kicking you if you don't perform the baseline in anything gated post-stormblood.

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The problem here is that (was also posted in this very thread somewhere I think) healers need to cast Medica, Medica II AND Assize, "all AoE heals they have", or however it was phrased. And that, unfortunately, seems to be too much for them.

It is so weird that like 90% of the time, it's always the healers that complain that the content is getting too hard. At the same time they rarely use more than 50% of their healing spells or buffs. And if something requires more than pressing Cure or Medica II here and there, it is hard content and must be nerfed.

I am so very sick and tired of healers not using their abilities. I already stopped complaining about them not dpsing at all. I just wished they could at least heal somewhat decently. A healer that doesn't dps already has the easiest role in the party BY FAR. Yes, there are also DPS that only use a fraction of their abilities. But most of them press most at least, not just in the right order or too slow. But there are so, so, sooo many healers that use like 5 of their 30+ actions.

I also haven't seen Tanks or DPS complain about the difficulty of The Burn (or The Vault, Bardam's Mettle etc. in the past) yet, only healers. If they would put in a minimum of effort, they wouldn't think that The Burn is hard. Because it isn't. You just can't afk there. That's a difference. And if a DPS messes up and gets hit, it will hurt a little more than in other dungeons, just like with The Vault when it was new. But that doesn't make it oh so hard if you press more than 1 button every 10 seconds.

The question is, what can be done here? How can we make lazy healers at least not be so terrible at healing? They say they signed up to heal and do nothing else, but they don't even do that right. But maybe I'm just salty because I've seen that way too often recently.

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Originally Posted by TalonAnchors

Isn't this more of an AFK check?

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No, it's a DPS check and if you're not killing the heads fast enough and allowing your party (specifically your healer) to have to deal with extra vulnerabilities for no other reason than that your DPS is incompetent, then yes, your DPS sucks and you failed it.

It's that simple.

You just made your healer work twice as hard because you thought taking the vulnerabilities from the dragon heads and ignoring them was a good idea. I feel sorry for the poor healers who have to deal with that nonsense....even more so when the DPS consistently keep getting frozen too.

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By that logic everything in this game is a DPS check, if you pull the first pack in any dungeon and just stand there not pressing buttons you'll eventually die

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Nice strawman, but you should know better that's not how it works. I shouldn't have to hand hold and explain basic elements of the game and what does or does not qualify as a DPS check to people.

Come on. Use your head.

How easy do people want this freaking game? They might as well just add an auto win button for all the lazy people that don't want to try and think every little stressful or hard bit that comes up is unfair or whatever get a grip people.....This game needs to get HARDER not easier why do people want to brainlessly go through content?

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

No, it's a DPS check and if you're not killing the heads fast enough and allowing your party (specifically your healer) to have to deal with extra vulnerabilities for no other reason than that your DPS is incompetent, then yes, your DPS sucks and you failed it.

It's that simple.

You just made your healer work twice as hard because you thought taking the vulnerabilities from the dragon heads and ignoring them was a good idea. I feel sorry for the poor healers who have to deal with that nonsense....even more so when the DPS consistently keep getting frozen too.



Nice strawman, but you should know better that's not how it works. I shouldn't have to hand hold and explain basic elements of the game and what does or does not qualify as a DPS check to people.

Come on. Use your head.

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Yeah. A DPS check is only a dps check if there's a time limit on it.

Pulling mobs is not a dps check because while yes, killing the mobs quickly is good and means less healing output required, there's not any sort of limit. The mobs don't enrage after 60 seconds and start 1 shotting people or anything.

Enrage timers are a dps check. You do enough damage to kill the boss in time or the party wipes. Many mid boss transitions are dps checks. You kill the adds in time or the party wipes. Now, as I understand it the three dragon heads aren't an instant death if you fail the mechanic, but they're still a dps check, you fail if the three heads aren't destroyed before the aoe covers the whole arena. But they are still certainly 100% a dps check. In O11, the dps check is killing the monitor before Omega's gauge hits 100%, but the rest of the fight is NOT a dps check. Obviously you want to kill the boss faster so there's less chances of things going wrong and just to finish faster, but the final phase of normal mode raid fights are not a dps check because there's no timer.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Then don't pug. and don't queue with such people. You'll NEVER have the right to insist they dont play. ever.

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I'm afraid your stance on this is silly, for two reasons: 1) PF allows one to set certain expectations, so you should meet those and 2) for content organised through matchmaking, there is an assumption that the goal is to complete the duty in a reasonable amount of time. Most players share this goal, because this sort of content is there to level or gear, and will therefore remove players who pose an obstacle and don't want to improve.

1) also applies to savage content, but there's no real debate on that - none that anyone would take seriously.

2) is the reason why the votekick function exists - and I will advocate kicking anyone holding back the group and not listening to feedback, including people who e.g. run around HoH to collect chests and waste everyone else's collective time. I always offer feedback to players where they can improve, I rarely just resort to kicking unless someone is insufferable.

I don't care if they shovel money in SE's direction, but they won't be wasting my time.

Matchmade content isn't an excuse to be an idiot and still forms part of the game, and a considerable one given its role in gearing and leveling. By not improving/listening to feedback you are, essentially, wasting other people's scarce time. Pretty toxic, if you ask me.

They can play the game, like I said, just not with me.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Yeah. A DPS check is only a dps check if there's a time limit on it.

Pulling mobs is not a dps check because while yes, killing the mobs quickly is good and means less healing output required, there's not any sort of limit. The mobs don't enrage after 60 seconds and start 1 shotting people or anything.

Enrage timers are a dps check. You do enough damage to kill the boss in time or the party wipes. Many mid boss transitions are dps checks. You kill the adds in time or the party wipes. Now, as I understand it the three dragon heads aren't an instant death if you fail the mechanic, but they're still a dps check, you fail if the three heads aren't destroyed before the aoe covers the whole arena. But they are still certainly 100% a dps check. In O11, the dps check is killing the monitor before Omega's gauge hits 100%, but the rest of the fight is NOT a dps check. Obviously you want to kill the boss faster so there's less chances of things going wrong and just to finish faster, but the final phase of normal mode raid fights are not a dps check because there's no timer.

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But there is a time limit, the mobs will eventually kill you just like the dragon heads

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Originally Posted by TalonAnchors

But there is a time limit, the mobs will eventually kill you just like the dragon heads

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Not really. A DPS check is testing just dps.

In normal trash pulls, even if you have crappy dps you can still live via good tanking and good healing. It's not just about how much damage you put out. There are multiple variables in place to determine if the group lives or not. These mobs could be cleared by a a paladin spamming total eclipse and three healers spaming cure on them.

In a DPS check, it doesn't matter how good the healers are or how good the tanks are at mitigating incoming damage. The group either puts out enough dps to clear the check or they don't. There's no wiggle room to be bought with healing or tanking. No amount of healing or tanking is going to contribute to killing the monitor or crystal or nails or whatever in time.

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Originally Posted by TalonAnchors

But there is a time limit, the mobs will eventually kill you just like the dragon heads

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Stop purposely being obtuse, you can't possibly be this ignorant about DPS checks with bard at lvl 70.