When will we get the PVP system for PVE ?

From what I gather, most players don't want this to happen. That said, I hope something like the PvP system is implemented in PvE. Fewer skills with greater impact is a better approach imo. Also, I find doing so tends to increase the level of job identity from what we have now.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

I would think the number of button presses would matter less than a worthwhile animation/function.

Change Gust Slash into something animation wise like Shoulder Tackle with a quick flip at the end, but gust will put you behind the enemy for easier access to the back positional for the two combo.

If Gust Slash comes after Spinning Edge, the flip at the end moves ninja to the side of the target setting up the Armor Crush finisher.

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I’m assuming that you brought up animations in response to my “incomplete” comment; what I meant had nothing to do with animations and them making the combo feel “complete” really. This game is built with combos being in 3’s (DRG aside). Spinning Slash > Shadow Fang just felt odd, and clunky to use. Using it in between 3-step combos just made it feel cumbersome and like it was very poorly just thrown into the NIN rotation; at least that’s how it felt for me when I was leveling NIN in HW.

I feel the same way with SAM and Hakage > Yukikaze. Like there should be more to it after that. And that may be because most combos are 3-step combos, and 1-2 just feels like the developers forgot the 3rd skill in the combo.

I felt the idea to change the combo skills from multiple buttons to a single button to save on bloat was a good idea.


It would also be nice if the skills swapped in pve, for example...

Summoner's Dreadwyrm trance should be replaced by the flare skill when you activate it, as there's no reason to ever hit the trance button again to end it, and the flare will end it with the flare.
I believe it does this in pvp.

Stuff like that can also help lower button bloat without changing how the jobs are played.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Casters already received something similar with higher tier replacing lower ones. You no longer need 3 slots for Thunder, Ruin and Stone.

Frankly, I don't understand why they didn't fuse Blizzard and Blizzaga...and Fire and Firaga (With an adjustement to Firestarter)

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Because they do different things? The only blm spell that was removed from our bar was Thunder 1. They didn't even remove useless spells like Blizzard 2 and Freeze from our kit, or attempt to change them to make them useful. They could feasibly make some convoluted combination of blizz3/blizz1 and fire3/fire1 where the lower tiers aren't available when in the opposing mode and fire 3 replaces fire 1 when you get a firestarter proc but that would be really messy. Or when you use Leylines the ability changes to between the lines for the duration, but they just won't save as many hotbars as it will for melee classes.

I understand the point of pressing the same button for the attacks that follow a pattern but that really takes away the fun and strategy behind making decisions. There's a difference between pressing the same button and you yourself creating the combinations. It's hard to explain but has to do with strategy, precision, and and thought.

So no, I really really don't want the devs to ever do this. Sb decreased the number of skills so there's no need for something like this yet. In 5.0 what they need to do is let us choose the skills we want that overlap with other skills that have similar use/potency.

For example
Fell cleave or new name skill which lets you hit your enemy twice with similar potency

This way we keep the same number of skills on hotbar and letting you choose to add the new skills or not.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

I understand the point of pressing the same button for the attacks that follow a pattern but that really takes away the fun and strategy behind making decisions. There's a difference between pressing the same button and you yourself creating the combinations. It's hard to explain but has to do with strategy, precision, and and thought.

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I understand the idea, it's like a mortal kombat game tying all punch and kick combos to one button. But those kind of games have an action based standard attack system, where as here we have auto attacks for standard basic attacks.

The combo system more follows the line of fatalities, do x sequence of buttons get the same outcome everytime. If that's the case, finishers should be like that, not the standard rotation. Finishers closest comparison in this game is ultimate job gauge abilities or limit breaks.

So say like:

Spinning Edge> Gust Slash> Armor Crush on same button unlocks 10,000 Moonshadow Strike.

Do the Armor Crush combo on one button
A veil of shadows envelops your ninja
Your hotbar is temporarily replaced with a sequence of 4-8 commands.(sort of like Mortal Kombat or Sabin in FFVI)

Enter the flashy multi button finisher, timing dictates the potency or accuracy of the ultimate finisher.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/XUJDJq4DNIPGU/giphy.gif

I think it will happen. Further consolidation of existing skills into fewer buttons is how they will add more skills later on without increasing burden on hotbars. FYI yoshida said they were considering something like the pvp consolidation of combos in pve and will monitor player feedback on it while also noting that certain jobs in the way they play now are difficult to consolidate. Also apparently doing this is an increased burden on the servers when it communicates with the client to cycle hotbar buttons onto the next skill in a chain, but it's possible to do and being considered. It wouldn't really make the game too easy because other things change too like gauges and mechanics... people were worried that SB skill bloat reduction would make the game too easy. If anything SB mch is even harder to play than HW mch.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Well you said you wanted to reduce skill bloat right? That was one of your goals in combining combos into one button.

MNK has 8 different combinations with 6 different weapon skills.

6 Weapon Skills:
Bootshine
Dragon Kick
True Strike
Twin Snakes
Snap Punch
Demolish

8 Combinations:
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch
Dragon Kick > True Strike > Snap Punch
Dragon Kick > True Strike > Demolish
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish
Boot Shine > True Strike > Demolish
Boot Shine > Twin Snakes > Demolish
Boot Shine > Twin Snakes > Snap Punch
Boot Shine > True Strike > Snap Punch

To turn all of those possibilities into one button each you would need 8 buttons which ends up more than the 6 standalone buttons we have right now.

The only solution to this problem would be to alter how MNK currently plays (IE: Reynhart's suggestions) and that alteration is for the sole reason to make this system work and not to improve MNK or make it more fun IE: What an expansion would usually try to do. It is forcing change around an outside influence instead of changing the job simply to make it better, more fun, or more engaging. That's my opinion anyway.

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That is what it would take to allow fixed combos. But Monks are not a fixed combo class. Why then would one try to assign a strict set of 3 skills in a row to a slot when they could instead just use 3 slots to progress through any of the given skills in each Form?

Opo-opo
1 Bootshine
2 Dragon Kick
3 Arm of the Destroyer

Raptor
1 True Strike
2 Twin Snakes
3 One-Ilm Punch

Coeurl
1 Snap Punch
2 Demolish
3 Arm of the Destroyer

If Perfect Balance then remains, it would both negate the GCD and animation costs of Form Shift, your (4).

Now, you could keep those extra 6 keys for the purpose of ease of use during 10 seconds of every 3 minutes, as per your own preference. I just wouldn't. I'd rather just speed up my apm for that brief period of time, so long as 6 out of 10 weaponskills at any point are going to be locked out.

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Originally Posted by Miste

As for this I've already explained my point of view? It's right there at the end of the post you quoted that I don't agree with altering MNK's play style simply to make this system work.

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But, again, this would require zero alternations to Monk's play style, unless you're intending on spamming non-comboed Opo-opo abilities. It would only add button-presses during a particular CD — no actual animations or delay added whatsoever — in exchange for freeing up 6 hotkeys. It does not change the playstyle.

I'll cancel my sub to this game the moment they try this.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That is what it would take to allow fixed combos. But Monks are not a fixed combo class. Why then would one try to assign a strict set of 3 skills in a row to a slot when they could instead just use 3 slots to progress through any of the given skills in each Form?

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My example is based on what OP asked for.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If Perfect Balance then remains, it would both negate the GCD and animation costs of Form Shift, your (4).

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As for this I've already explained my point of view? It's right there at the end of the post you quoted that I don't agree with altering MNK's play style simply to make this system work. Making MNK have to weave in Form Shifts to do their current opener is altering their play style. I don't agree with doing that for the sole reason of making this combo system work, and nothing you say will change my mind on that, sorry.

If in the future they want to alter the jobs for expansion etc and they renew them and include this new system while also taking into account fun, a unique play style, and balance for all jobs, then in theory I am okay with that, as long as it is optional and I can keep my buttons separate if I so choose. We are just throwing ideas around, but we aren't taking into account balance, or fun, and that kind of makes most ideas pretty useless really.

If it was ever not optional and forced on us to use consolidated combos I would cancel my sub, it simply wouldn't be the same game to me anymore and would lose a lot of the fun I had with it.

PS. As a side note jobs like BRD for example where you spam one button for an extended period of time (Heavy Shot while not needing to refresh dots and inbetween song actions etc) makes my hand hurt because there is not enough variation sometimes. Similar to RDM, as much as I love RDM, in dungeons the constant spamming of one button (scatter) hurts my hand. So making rotations where you use the same button repetitively, even if for different actions, definitely doesn't seem appealing for multiple reasons for me personally.