Poll: Gear progression, horizontal or vertical?

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Not really "tailored" you take the risk of not being able to heal it now. Its a trade-off, not required. Also you can't rely on it. What if none of the pieces proc?

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Not really a trade-off. Players will find which piece of gear works best for each fight and use that. If the fight has too much damage going out that it can't be healed in that damage proc gear, you wouldn't wear that specific damage buffing gear.

And you keep mentioning "what if it doesn't proc". And? That fact that the proc exists places it above a piece of gear that doesn't have that proc, when used in the situation you are equipping it for.

In a comparison between two pieces of gear that are equal other than their procs, the procs on them being a % base is irrelevant when choosing between the 2.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Not really a trade-off. Players will find which piece of gear works best for each fight and use that. If the fight has too much damage going out that it can't be healed in that damage proc gear, you wouldn't wear that specific damage buffing gear.

And you keep mentioning "what if it doesn't proc". And? That fact that the proc exists places it above a piece of gear that doesn't have that proc, when used in the situation you are equipping it for.

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What if a mix is the best? What if it doesn't proc? What if it never procs? What if it always Procs? Its RNG. You don't design encounters based off what can or can't proc. Sure it will help, but its not something you can rely on.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

What if a mix is the best? What if it doesn't proc? What if it never procs? What if it always Procs? Its RNG. You don't design encounters based off what can or can't proc. Sure it will help, but its not something you can rely on.

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I don't think you understand. Regardless if it procs rarely or if it procs every time. The fact that the proc is on that piece of gear will mean you choose that one for that situation. In a comparison between two pieces of gear that are equal other than their procs, the procs on them being a % base is irrelevant when choosing between the 2.

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Originally Posted by Catsby

Horizontal or neither.

the current gear treadmill discourages the one of the game's strongest and most unique features; all classes on one character. I stopped playing more than 2 jobs once the tomestone nonsense got out of hand. I don't mind collecting a set of gear for each job. I do mind collecting a set of gear for each job every few months. f that.

edit; spelling

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That's...actually precisely why they do it.
They need to make things more difficult or players complain.
They need rewarding, meaningful content or players complain.
Thus, they stagger content and make it progressive.
If you don't like it...hate to say it, but you probably won't be happy with where the game will be going.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

I BOOM win-win.... everyones happy. Casuals never have to upgrade their gear and raiders can continue to grow their characters through raids. Problem Solved.... Your welcome!

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Where did this idea that people that play the game casually don't want to upgrade their gear comes from? If this idea were implemented you'd lose the "casual" crowd in a heartbeat because they'd cap their gear and leave.

vertical/hybrid that inclines towards vertical.

I really liked xi... but on hindsight I felt really gimped without Kraken club, o kote, leaping boots, peacock charm etc.

Maybe some insanely good loot at lower level that have higher level counterparts? But then I guess it doesn't sit well with the ilevel requirement.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Where did this idea that people that play the game casually don't want to upgrade their gear comes from? If this idea were implemented you'd lose the "casual" crowd in a heartbeat because they'd cap their gear and leave.

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From this post, almost everyone that is voting horizontal is doing so because they don't like having to grind a new set of tomestone gear. So, don't make a new set of tomestone gear and they won't have to grind it. I'm genius!

Then they will have more time to do other things, like raid, or craft, or chocobo race, or triple triad tourneys, or iono ERP or something.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

The first part is a fallacy, the second applied/s to FFXI as much as vertical progression. A melee having capped haste and double/triple attack for the TP set and AP, relevant stat and WS accuracy/damage boost way outperformed someone who was in the same "level" of gear with suboptimal stats and bonuses on the gear. Just as a healer out performed when stacking the correct bonuses for each gear swap on macros for each ability, A +cure potency capped WHM for curing was able to use lower level cures thus reducing mana consumption massively, an enfeeble stacked RDM was more effective than one that was geared like a melee job.

Your idea of horizontel not having anything to do with the numerical output of the jobs and it being based on "skill" is a complete fabrication.

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Fallacy, you say? You alter numbers in your example so that one always vastly exceeds the other.

What if haste and double attack had similar damage increase ratios, but they had different effects? (a flashy second attack,different from the normal hit for double attack, and a much higher normal hit ratio for haste).

Now suddenly your example against horizontal progression falls flat on its face.



Even in the case of numbers being apart, as long as the numbers are not apart in a huge way; it does not matter which a player chooses.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

EDIT: Also, one thing I don't understand with horizontal progression... How would they even keep making new and interesting gear that people would even want? Maybe I'm missing something, but if everything have the same level, and only different stats and whatnot, why would you even want to change your gear once you get a combination that is better than everything else? And trust me, there would be gear like that.

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How would they make new and interesting gear with vertical progression? Its the same item with the same stats, but just bigger numbers.

^Its not a problem of the gear system, but gearing itself. Altho horizontal would actually make it easier; since you can provide more options at the same ''ilvl''.

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Originally Posted by NadienKirisame

Though I'm not makingany elite argument nor am I telling anyone you must be pushing 200%.

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Yet a little further in your post you say:

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Originally Posted by NadienKirisame

you are actually pulling less then what you should be pulling and we can no longer win the fights and now no one else is having fun because of your choice...

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Make up your mind? Are you saying that people should play the absolute best possible or not? Because that second part of ''not performing well enough'' is exactly the opposite of my argument.
I was arguing that if someone brings enough to the fight to get it down (enough dps to down the boss before an enrage for example) then it does not matter one bit how they do it.
There is no ''not performing well enough'' in that argument, anywhere to be found.

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Originally Posted by NadienKirisame

well not sure what to tell you maybe you need to think about others as well as your self when you are playing an MMO.

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Please reread what I posted. I think you find me even arguing that you dont think about others enough.


Let me say it in less then subtle words I used before:
Ive always brought the performance of an elite player (in wow, since I played the game a long time I became quite good at it).
Yet despite that I never expected others to perform at the same level (thats unreasonable to expect from people that didnt invest absurds amounts of time).
So I personally never care as long as I know people do their best, and as long as we can get the encounter down (or give a good try).

In the end what matters most is having fun. And you simply dont do that as much if you are playing something that you dont enjoy, but is forced upon you.

Why force someone that play something they greatly dislike, for a 5% increase? Playing something you dislike can give a way greater performance drop then 5%.



What always amused me is that over the years Ive seen a lot of people use your arguments. Yet they didnt play anywhere near ''the best'' themselves.

Why hold an elitist point of view if you cant even play like an elite?
You seem to be amused a lot in your posts, is it because you amuse yourself at your own irony?

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Originally Posted by NadienKirisame

Should everyone just go "awww it is ok he was having fun even though we wiped 500 times because well he just couldn't put out enough because of the gear he had and we couldn't make up for that loss."

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I prefer to have fun and play well. Thats pretty standard at high levels of play in any game. Especially in encounters with more room for ''having fun''.


You strike me more and more as a ''fanboy'' of elitisme then an actual good player...

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Originally Posted by NadienKirisame

Also I'm the last one to tell someone how to play their character

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Your posts are filled with you telling others how to play their character.

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Originally Posted by NadienKirisame

Also I have been in the situations before

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And you are now going on a crusade against anyone that says ''I want to have fun''as a result, I get it. :p



But remember that having fun and playing well are 2 entirely different things.
Altho having fun does actually increase your performance by a lot.




Ps: Playing well is simply good enough to do the job, rather then ''the best''.
If you think otherwise then you have some insecurity issues.

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Originally Posted by Daranion

Damn, people just can't ignore debate bait can they? I'll tally all the votes up every 24 hours and update the OP with a continual count, but shoot, so many people either starting debates or voting for silly options.

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Well, how else to relieve boredom? Besides, once in a blue moon someone actually does increase their perspective. Sometimes. It does happen.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

From this post, almost everyone that is voting horizontal is doing so because they don't like having to grind a new set of tomestone gear. So, don't make a new set of tomestone gear and they won't have to grind it. I'm genius!

Then they will have more time to do other things, like raid, or craft, or chocobo race, or triple triad tourneys, or iono ERP or something.

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I would think people who are voting horizontal are mostly raiders who want their hard-earned gear to last forever, like it did in FFXI.

Casuals don't mind getting new gear, they just don't want it to take 1000 attempts at the same one piece of content to get one drop.