#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

Do you know how stupid that sounds? Please enter M8s and solo heal if you think shield is all you need in a party. Please do FRU with only a shield healer.

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Solo healing is not the point (where did you even get that from) because all of those fights are very very viable with double shield healer but good luck with double meme healer comp

You’ve yet to present a case as to why regens bring anything useful to the vast majority of encounters besides AST doing more damage than anyone else

The point is the shield healers are simply too strong and the strengths of the regen healers are wasted. You pointing out limited excess GCD healing on forsaken’s part doesn’t disprove her point that SGE uselessly vomits out healing that makes even the regen healers blush and SCH only kinda passes under the radar because it’s easier to dump into ED than anything else

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

My dude, please....

Your synergy with the WHM was 0. You were just pressing buttons with 0 regard of your co-healer or plan which is understandable since it is PF.

Also, comparing M8s with M5s is really unfair since M8s has vastly more damage and offers a lot more healing opportunities. People are already better geared and don't take as much damage in M5s.

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Ough do we really have to do this, this early in the morning?

- Yes, I pressed actual barrier GCDs. I do not know why. Maybe I was several pulls deep and tired of wiping to things, maybe I misplayed a couple of places and had to panic-barrier to make up for the misplayed mit, maybe I just didn't care enough to tryhard on that pull because I had no energy that day. I dunno. But the portion of the GCD that is being called 'overheal' here is the healing part, not the barrier part. So, yeh, I applied barriers (to be safe), while the party was already at full HP. Sue me.

- Haimatinon and Panhaimatinon refer to the healing upon the effect's expiration. Are you saying I should have known that my cohealer was going to heal everyone to full before they expired, and not used those actions for their primary purpose (mitigation)?

- Holos gets used for mitigation, not my problem that SE decided to attach a 300p heal to it. What, am I meant to say 'oh wait I'll not use Holos for the 300p barrier and 10% mit here, because everyone's full HP already. Wouldn't want to overheal!'

- Physis is a 60s CD and is completely free. It also amplifies the potency of all the other healing tools. It'd be stupid not to press it, even if it does partially end up as overheal. If it does end up as overheal, it's likely because of an overzealous cohealer topping everyone off before the HOT does its work.

- Pneuma is damage neutral. The first can't really be considered 'overheal' (it was 46% overheal on the GNB, and only the GNB, for some reason), the second was a Swiftcast-Pneuma to try and save some people after a B-Side laser, it barely kept me and one other alive but the MCH died due to being at a lower HP amount after the B-Side than me or the BLM. Maybe gear difference, I don't remember. Either way, I LB'd after it happened to avoid the Weaknesses. Third Pneuma was right at the end of the fight in between the final two Celebrate Good Times raidwides (going into enrage) just to make sure we were all full HP to close out the kill, and considering I threw Zoe on it, I can only assume I was in a state of 'get me out of this damn fight' at the time.

- Philosophia was used going into Funky Floor, to heal after the damage of Disco Inferno without needing to worry about my distance from allies (so I can start making my way towards my spotlight). Once everyone was full HP, yes, additional procs of Eudaimonia were overheal. To avoid that would require not pressing my damage buttons. The second was dumped at the end of the fight, because why not. The Pneuma at the same time was probably enough, but it's a free button and the fight's ending anyway so why not.

Also of note is that I used like, half of the amount of potential uses of these actions. I could have had 3 Philosophia uses, I got 2 (and one was a meme at the end). I could have had 4 uses of Pneuma, I had 3. I could have had another Panhaima somewhere, or another 7 Soterias, or I could have actually pressed Krasis even a single time, but I did not. I used my kit at like, half its potential output, and it's getting me '0 synergy with the WHM' talk.

If this comment is true:

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

Their entire existence, AST or WHM, is to fill in gaps. AST or WHM will always be secondary and in the background, while shields are the main healers. Even if you are AST, will will NEVER be the main healer. You exist to provide HP and restore whatever is left after shield healers did their stuff for the mechanic.

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Surely that means that it's the WHM that had '0 synergy' with me, given that a lot of the SGE kit takes time to apply its healing (Haima/Pan expiration, Eudaimonia procs, Physis, Kerakeia)? I did 'my stuff', and then the WHM occasionally pressed something like Rapture, or Assize, and oops now the delayed healing effect of the SGE is considered overhealing. Though saying that, the WHM also had only 6 casts of Rapture, so their HPS could have also been FAR higher than it was. They weren't doing the 'prep Misery to use in raidbuffs' thing, and if they were, both me and them would have presumably had even more overhealing.


If you want the M8S example, here you go:

https://i.gyazo.com/deb755669da1eec5...4a24c49564.png
https://i.gyazo.com/ede329c5b4590ef8...14ad89acef.png

Hmm those overheal numbers look pretty comparable, despite the extra damage and more healing required on average, I'd say. I just happened to press the GCD barrier more times, but still had less overheal with it. I imagine the 'overwritten' ones come from places like the Tracking Tremors (applying a new one before the stack mark takes the old one off) or the mit check right after the adds. Also:

https://i.gyazo.com/4386fab66d90b48f...7cb7099cff.png

Again, didn't use all of my everything, else my overheal would be even higher again.

Lastly, both me and my coheal in this run got purples on damage (me 81/them 94) and grey/green on healing (me 21/them 27). Could coordination/'synergy' be higher? Sure. But it was again a PF, and everyone just wants to get their reclears done and move on. Even so, I'd say that us both having sub-30 Healing parses means that we pretty effectively divided the healing requirements between us, but still, I had more in the tank that I could have used (which would have also ended up as overheal).

Overheal isn't necessarily 'bad', unless it causes another problem down the line. For example, using an Indom on SCH that is 100% overheal, bad, because that could have been an Energy Drain. Using an Ixochole on SGE that is 100% overheal, not only is it 'not bad' (assuming that you don't need the Addersgall for anything else) and you're not punished at all (because it costs you no damage to use), it actually slightly rewards you, because it gives you 700MP back. Wasting Addersgall on pure overheal, sometimes, is actually mandatory for your MP economy, which is a bit weird a design IMO but that's how SE's gone and made it

And why are you feeding my logs into the 'you did this and this wrong' machine anyway? Next time please at least have the courtesy to check the log yourself for my mistakes instead of outsourcing it

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Solo healing is not the point (where did you even get that from) because all of those fights are very very viable with double shield healer but good luck with double meme healer comp

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Assuming that we have a second Healer that is playing a Healer job, but doesn't press a single healing action, just does damage (so as to make sure that mechanics still function predictably), say, a SCH that doesn't summon their Faerie, doesn't press any Soils, Expedients, Succors, only presses Broil, Bio, Chain and Bane

Assuming all of that, yeh, I think a SGE could still potentially solo heal the fight

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Ough do we really have to do this, this early in the morning?

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Holy mother of wall of text...lol. Wrap it up next time, please.

Overall, I don't care why you did what you did. I wanted to show that the point you were trying to make was just rubbish and the example was just bad and disingenuous.

The reason why you got a purple parse was because you were spamming your abilities on top of people being overgeared. This is further supported by the fact that you had 4 deaths + 4 damage downs, yet you have cleared and didn't even hit enrage. Clear time was 9:52, and the enrage timer is 9:54, with 10:06 being the wipe.

As for analyzing the log it's just easier to see the overall overheal and which sources contributed to it. FFlogs is more precise but more tedious as I didn't care about time stamps or mechanics.

And yes I am well aware how SGE works and their MP economy, and speaking of which, you have used 0 rizomata and you left your adersal overcap 4 times. The same thing can be said about your M8's example.

Anyway... It's M5s.. and it's already late in the tier, you don't have to perfectly play the fight.

Points out cases "shield+shield/ast = good ; meme comp/regen+regen = bad" (gross oversimplification yes, but you get the idea). Then slapped with 'no synergy with cohealer/pls solo heal FRU as shield healer'.

Really feels like reading a response from SE.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

[…]Assuming all of that, yeh, I think a SGE could still potentially solo heal the fight

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IMHO from what I recall from their track record, many encounters are solo healable. The regular ‘wall’ are usually specific mechanics that throws out invisible healer marker that goes to a random person whenever 2nd healer does not exist in the party.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Solo healing is not the point (where did you even get that from) because all of those fights are very very viable with double shield healer but good luck with double meme healer comp

You’ve yet to present a case as to why regens bring anything useful to the vast majority of encounters besides AST doing more damage than anyone else

The point is the shield healers are simply too strong and the strengths of the regen healers are wasted. You pointing out limited excess GCD healing on forsaken’s part doesn’t disprove her point that SGE uselessly vomits out healing that makes even the regen healers blush and SCH only kinda passes under the radar because it’s easier to dump into ED than anything else

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The point that you are trying to make is based on a flawed example. Sure, if you just look at their initial picture, you can assume that, in that case, the WHM was close to useless.
However, conclusions should not be drawn in a vacuum, but they should be drawn while analyzing the context and trying to understand the entire setup by looking at the factors that contributed to that outcome.

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

The point that you are trying to make is based on a flawed example. Sure, if you just look at their initial picture, you can assume that, in that case, the WHM was close to useless.
However, conclusions should not be drawn in a vacuum, but they should be drawn while analyzing the context and trying to understand the entire setup by looking at the factors that contributed to that outcome.

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I didn’t make the solo healing example, you did, I used the example of double shields being good vs double regens being a meme and how AST isn’t the problem child in that relationship because it can act as a pseudo shield healer while WHM cannot because of its excessively rigid mitigation. If regen healers were so essential then why is double shield healer such a strong comp

This game basically treats every healer as an assumed shield healer and WHM is the only one not equipped to actually fulfil that role which makes the shield healers job harder. Its theoretical HPS is incredibly niche simply because it has to be entirely unplanned as the other healers can stock high HPS equivalent moves to compensate. So why bring the “I may save you in the rare circumstance where everyone is incredibly low and it’s totally unplanned so nobody but me has an answer but otherwise I’m weaker on mitigation than some DPS” over the “I’m always useful because I actually have good mitigation in my kit” (which healer am I talking about here, it doesn’t matter because it applies to any healer not called WHM)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I didn’t make the solo healing example, you did, I used the example of double shields being good vs double regens being a meme and how AST isn’t the problem child in that relationship because it can act as a pseudo shield healer while WHM cannot because of its excessively rigid mitigation. If regen healers were so essential then why is double shield healer such a strong comp

This game basically treats every healer as an assumed shield healer and WHM is the only one not equipped to actually fulfil that role which makes the shield healers job harder. Its theoretical HPS is incredibly niche simply because it has to be entirely unplanned as the other healers can stock high HPS equivalent moves to compensate. So why bring the “I may save you in the rare circumstance where everyone is incredibly low and it’s totally unplanned so nobody but me has an answer but otherwise I’m weaker on mitigation than some DPS” over the “I’m always useful because I actually have good mitigation in my kit” (which healer am I talking about here, it doesn’t matter because it applies to any healer not called WHM)

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I think you have a real comprehension issue since you cannot distinguish between the conversation I had where I was debating if pure healers are needed, and me commenting about having two pure healers in the party. Anyway...

Just curious, when was the last time you PF-ed, and how niche were those cases where people either stood in bad, died (including your co-heal), or people forgot to press their mit button, and everyone was super low?

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

what?????? What 3 mits/ 2 minutes? Are you counting CU twice?

Also, I have NEVER seen 2 AST in a party in high-end content, just the same way I have never seen 2 WHM, why would you even want or measure the class design on such a flawed premise? What's even the point of it?

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This is your own quote where you randomly bought up having two of the same type of a regen healer………for literally zero reason that had nothing to do with what you quoted me on 3 pages ago. I have only mentioned that double regen healer doesn’t work as evidence for the weakness of WHM. The only reason I bring up double regen comps is because they DONT work, while double shield comps are only not meta because of AST’s damage, that is evidence pure healers are severely under-utilised and like I said AST is not the problem child in that relationship. That is the only point I have ever made

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Originally Posted by Kohashi

Just curious, when was the last time you PF-ed, and how niche were those cases where people either stood in bad, died (including your co-heal), or people forgot to press their mit button, and everyone was super low?

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That’s a pointless question because “stand in bad and died” is something that any healer can rectify, outside of benediction WHM’s single target healing isn’t any stronger than any other healer and bene should be heal planned anyway, the other statement “someone forgot to press a mitigation and now everyone is low” is arguably a vote in favour of anything besides WHM because they have the capacity to over mitigate. Regardless the central point is flawed because it’s not “someone stood in bad” it’s “when did a situation occur in which WHM and ONLY WHM’s HPS was enough to save a run where the other healers would have failed” and that is vanishingly rare with skills like seraphism or neutral sect around because with those skills WHM’s HPS really isn’t even that much higher, it’s more on demand but if the situation is “heal now or die” then future heal plans go out the window anyway

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The only reason I bring up double regen comps is because they DONT work, while double shield comps are only not meta because of AST’s damage, that is evidence pure healers are severely under-utilised and like I said AST is not the problem child in that relationship. That is the only point I have ever made.


That’s a pointless question because “stand in bad and died” is something that any healer can rectify

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I have to say, the amount of stupid shit that you are saying it's between funny and right down bafling. It just shows how little understanding you have of what is currently happening and how systems work.

Yes, it is relevant because while there are many talented and skilled individuals, the average PF and people raiding overall do a LOT of mistakes. That's why even in statics, it is hard to have a completely rigid healing rotation. Stuff happens, people stand in bad, such is life. Nobody is perfect, mistakes can happen, and having a pure + a shield is always better to mitigate such occurrences.


Also, probably the reason why double shield is not meta is because it requires extra planning and synergy/ communication between the healers since a lot of the stuff overlaps and cancels each other. It can absolutely be done, but why even add a layer of complexity when the easiest way would be to have one of each?

The damage is not frequent and/or hits hard enough to force this particular set of gameplay.