[Pole] Do you want to see the summoner class reworked?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

These are some fairly old posts, and don't really ask for anything that hasn't been asked here--increase Egi size (not hugely, but about an extra half of their current size, as to be about as imposing as at least the Summoner him/herself), duplicate pet GCD (do not lock out pet control while casting), increase pet action responsiveness (Shockwave, Contagion, and Enkindle actually going off the moment you hit the key, instead of 1 to 5 seconds later), etc. That said, I appreciate the links.

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Exactly. There is nothing new in these links that weren't mentioned here. Spellbinder actually speaks english and has shared his thoughts here as well so I don't know what Akiza hoped to achieve by linking these.

Because if nobody else reads Japanese he can just claim his interpretation of google translate means what he wants and nobody else will question it

Ok, i'll keep this simple. Yes it needs reworked.
SE is trying to make SMN pet job easy to play, and they've succeeded - but to accomplish this they give SMN no utility.
Unless Garuda is on Obey, she uses contagion too early. So why not just rework SMN as a support role since it's already fiddly to get her to work right ?
Now, let's be honest here - Titan and Ifrit egi have little to no use in a dungeon past level 40. SMN has limited AoE damage, which has to be set up.
No utility aside from an in-battle raise. No unique Limit Break, buffs or debuffs.
No unique pet buffs, party buffs, or abilities. So what's left ?
You get Garuda, Contagion, and an in-battle raise.
Looking ahead to the potential of Leviathan, Garuda, and Shiva egi's...
the SMN class needs to be rebuilt from the ground up as Support, period.
That's my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Veil

Ok, i'll keep this simple. Yes it needs reworked.
SE is trying to make SMN pet job easy to play, and they've succeeded - but to accomplish this they give SMN no utility.
Unless Garuda is on Obey, she uses contagion too early. So why not just rework SMN as a support role since it's already fiddly to get her to work right ?
Now, let's be honest here - Titan and Ifrit egi have little to no use in a dungeon past level 40. SMN has limited AoE damage, which has to be set up.
No utility aside from an in-battle raise. No unique Limit Break, buffs or debuffs.
No unique pet buffs, party buffs, or abilities. So what's left ?
You get Garuda, Contagion, and an in-battle raise.
Looking ahead to the potential of Leviathan, Garuda, and Shiva egi's...
the SMN class needs to be rebuilt from the ground up as Support, period.
That's my 2 cents.

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We don't have a buff.
We don't have a single target debuff.
We don't have an AoE debuff either.
Our AoE is so limited .
Black Mage don't have to set up their AoE either.

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Originally Posted by Veil

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- To be honest, it's no easier than BLM or Bard, really, and that ease probably has very little to do with their lack of utility.
- That said, that 'lacking utility' is fairly par for the course. They have heavy, mass-heavy, mass-bind, pet-knockback, pet-stun, heal-rc-down, battle raise, weak single-healing, and strong pet-healing. BLM has heavy, sleep (not usable endgame), slow, mass-bind, single-MagicDamageTaken-down, (partial magic self-shield, complete(x2) physical self-shield), and weak single-healing. Bard has single-bind. Monk has stun. Dragoon has stun. Warrior has stun. Paladin has weak single-other-shield, Cover, negligible healing, and stun.
- How do slow-reacting pets make you want SMN to become support?
- Light party Levi EX and the brief Titan-Ramuh farms would say otherwise about Titan, though he certainly could be stronger based off more than his gimmicky AoE resistance... I'll agree about Ifrit though (see below).
- Summoner dominates chain pulls. Black Mage dominates mass-pulls.
- What kind of unique pet and party buffs would you like?
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Side thoughts: Contagion does certainly seem more powerful than a buffed Ifrit, even when mana is of no concern (whereas that would normally more than double the advantage...). Average uptime of DoTs is what... 24 seconds?. Contagion extends this by 30 seconds once per minute, (very) roughly doubling every other application set. To simplify this (again, roughly) into casts, a little over once per minute you're not recasting a set that you otherwise would have had to re-cast, worth about... 4 ruins, or 320 potency. Given that fester itself is only worth 300, that's quite a bit. Ifrit's damage is now almost identical to Garuda's when including both his auto-attacks and main ability (Garuda can do in 80 potency what Ifrit can do in 120). A full-uptime slashing/blunt damage boost for Ifrit's attacks is worth then about 2 windblades, or roughly 200 Garuda potency (240 Ifrit potency). Something like that... By that consideration, his basic damage probably ought to be increased by another 44% or so, if only to equate his damage, at least when buffed to that of the extra Ruins castable via Contagion...

I'm quite pleased being top dps in 97% of fights. SMN does not need to be a support, I'm not Yuna or Garnet or Eiko. I'd rather be Rydia than any other summoner and Bio was already her best spell for like 40 levels too

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BLM has heavy, sleep (not usable endgame)

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I beg to differ.
I love sleeping Everything in T3.

YES

Summoner here looks like a poison user....bio miasma etc....not a summoning technique at all...

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Originally Posted by Dwill

I don't know what 'unique' means.

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Considering he said unique...
E4E is cross-class. Both of those "debuffs" are available on Scholar. Shadow Flare's slow debuff is negligible, it really doesn't impact anything. Bane is the only legit AoE you listed. Blizzard 2 is a BLM skill. Lol@Tri-Disaster.

Lastly, no. BLM doesn't have to setup their AoE. They don't have to cast 3 spells and blow an AF stack just to AoE. They cast Fire 2 and the AoE is immediately there. It simply gets stronger with each Astral Fire stack.
Let's just pretend the "I'm only useful for Trials" class is just fine as-is. I forgot 85% of dungeon runs were killing trash mobs, something SMN is inherently inferior at, and the other 15% is a less than 60 second fight on a boss with the exception of some Coil runs.

Totally.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

I'm quite pleased being top dps in 97% of fights. SMN does not need to be a support, I'm not Yuna or Garnet or Eiko. I'd rather be Rydia than any other summoner and Bio was already her best spell for like 40 levels too

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Top DPS in 97% of fights for 15% of the dungeon.
Sweet damn.

In 4 man content I'm still doing better AoE dps than anyone but a blm who's over i100. But 4 man content is irrelevent. Shit even against T7 and T8 trash I'm usually top per encounter.

You're doing better AoE DPS than every other class that's not designed for AoE DPS except for the class that IS designed for AoE DPS?
....Ok.

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Originally Posted by Mjytresz

Considering he said unique...

Lastly, no. BLM doesn't have to setup their AoE. They don't have to cast 3 spells and blow an AF stack just to AoE. They cast Fire 2 and the AoE is immediately there. It simply gets stronger with each Astral Fire stack.
Let's just pretend the "I'm only useful for Trials" class is just fine as-is. I forgot 85% of dungeon runs were killing trash mobs, something SMN is inherently inferior at, and the other 15% is a less than 60 second fight on a boss with the exception of some Coil runs.

Totally.

Top DPS in 97% of fights for 15% of the dungeon.
Sweet damn.

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Sounds like you need to learn how play BLM. The standard is to open with fire 3 so you have 3 fire stacks asap and then begin aoe. Building up to 3 stacks with Fire 2 is a waste of MP and is inferior DPS. And SMN comes only second to BLM when it comes to aoe, MAYBE BRD when there is a ton of mobs (6+). So no it is not inherently inferior.

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Originally Posted by Mjytresz

Considering he said unique...
E4E is cross-class. Both of those "debuffs" are available on Scholar. Shadow Flare's slow debuff is negligible, it really doesn't impact anything. Bane is the only legit AoE you listed. Blizzard 2 is a BLM skill. Lol@Tri-Disaster.

Lastly, no. BLM doesn't have to setup their AoE. They don't have to cast 3 spells and blow an AF stack just to AoE. They cast Fire 2 and the AoE is immediately there. It simply gets stronger with each Astral Fire stack.
Let's just pretend the "I'm only useful for Trials" class is just fine as-is. I forgot 85% of dungeon runs were killing trash mobs, something SMN is inherently inferior at, and the other 15% is a less than 60 second fight on a boss with the exception of some Coil runs.

Totally.



Top DPS in 97% of fights for 15% of the dungeon.
Sweet damn.

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Look who's back for his monthly ignorant drivel.

If u read arcanist lore it says they use symbols and geometry to gain power For theyr spells.....thats a really cool idea. But still.....lol at miasma bio fester bane and everything. Where r the geometries there? The only skill that looks correct to that description its tri disaster....look the casting animation. The rest r ridicolous. Cmon square enix put some aoe trap like arcane symbols on the Ground or maybe something with time manipulatio or Space manipulation.Smn can summon creatures so its supposed to communicate with other dimensions (?) dnt u think? Giv us something like that. I think aoe traps or debuff r very good. Animations Will be like strange arcane symbols.....like the aura of the undeads in warcraft lol. Portals, etc. If u use geometry as ur catalyst then its supposed that u must draw them. Like tri disaster, the smn draws something in the air just check it out. Shadow flare its a very good idea like the slow effect Too....but its just a ball of fire. Put something in it like i Said on the ground a geometric symbol....its easy but its like the Class its supposed to be. Plus the smn in all the fantasy world looks like more shamans than mages. Look the concept art of our ffxiv smn. Really really close to a shaman. Shaman ita supposed to use spirit based spells or aetherial manipulation....not bio miasma and fester lol. Manaward from blak mage lloms like more fit to a smn instead of blm. Same For apocatastasis. A Black mage its a PURE DPS Class.....he got support skills....lol.

Aren't Summons in all but FF11 glorified mage spells with high costs?

FF3,4,5,9, &10; All have a dedicated class or characters that summon (flashy aoe spell) in addition to being mainly focused on white and/or black magics, usually white. Rydia!

In all three tactics games Summons are really just regular spells, like in those listed above, with a larger range and have a chance of hurting allies as well.

FF6; Any char could summon based on the single magicite they have equipped.

FF7; Much the same as 6 (can't skip animation flashy spell, arg!) but can have more than one materia equipped.


FF8,10,12, & 13 use Summons as character/party replacements for short periods of time to limited effect and aren't the focus of the characters actions.

FF8; Guardian Forces are equipped like in FF6 & 7, but a character can have as many GF's as possible. They do not cost money, but instead, when summoned, the characters HP is replaced by the GF's HP, and the ally can make no action until the summon is complete. If the GF's HP goes down to zero, the summon is cancelled and the GF can't be summoned again until it is revived. The time of the summon spell is determined by the character's compatibility with that GF, which is influenced by how frequently a character uses a particular GF.

FF10; Yuna, the parties white mage, gets to summon Aeons that replace the party for a short time and gets to romp around performing attacks and even overdrives.

FF12;Espers are basically the same as Yuna's Aeon summons but anyone can summon them depending on how you dole out the licensees to your party.

FF13; Eidolon play like Aeons and Espers with the added utiltiy of turning in a QTE.

What about this:

You can choose from all Egi skills - depending on which skills you have choosen it will get an other appearance!
Each skill have an affiliation to one appearance...

You can have 3 Summons (FamiliarI, FamiliarII and FamiliarIII), that makes it possible to have one tank, one supporter and one damage dealer... it even makes summoning others in midfight more interesting!
You dont like to change in mid combat? Just give him one Tank skill, one support Skill and 2 damage dealing skills...

To not rework the entire system, SE just needs to allow to set macros on Egi skill tree and let us customize our own Egi.
Still, SE have to rework current skills, many of them (all Egis) are useless (no provoke on Titan Egi?!)

It's not an Arcanist because only 3 abilities relate to Arcane Magic that is summon, Tri-Disaster and Shadow Flare the other abilities are from an Affliction Mage. Arcanists deals with manipulating the source of magic such as energy, spacetime and nature to create destructive spells, summon beings from other dimensions and empower their magic. The Time Mage, Illusionists, Dark Knight and Arcanist(Final Fantasy Tactics Advanced 2) is what a Final Fantasy XIV A Realm Reborn Arcanists should be. The Summoner should be more Pet focused with Pet skill trees, 16 unique Pet abilities and Pet buffs.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The Summoner should be more Pet focused with Pet skill trees, 16 unique Pet abilities and Pet buffs.

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I disagree. Summoner should be like Summoners of old. Where you cast long summon skills and when you're low on MP fall back on something else like Time Magic, Black Magic, or even White Magic. Of course that would mean that we would need something like FFV, and FFXI's sub-job system to allow that. However, the backlash from basically 100% reworking SMN would be probably more than the complaints about Warrior pre-2.1.

The thing you're trying to make is actually called Beastmaster.

For me as i Said the summoner its like born wrong. I mean the concept...its not suited to a smn at all. Cmon guys i repeat....bio miasma and fester....for a summoner? A person that uses dimensional manipulation...?.....

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Originally Posted by Eraqus

For me as i Said the summoner its like born wrong. I mean the concept...its not suited to a smn at all. Cmon guys i repeat....bio miasma and fester....for a summoner? A person that uses dimensional manipulation...?.....

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It is a Summoner because it summons beings. Now, whether you'd like the rest of the arsenal of a Summoner to be healing, black or arcanist magick it's your opinion. However, I repeat again, Summoner in this game is a much of a Summoner as it has been in any of the past Final Fantasies; it summons stuff. God... 11 pages of pure waste of time.

I actually really enjoy the way summoner currently works. One of my biggest complaints as others have stated is our repertoire of spells. The description of arcanist talks about geometry and arcane magic. Our list of spells hardly reflects this. We use diseases and poisons for the bulk of our damage. I think when it comes down to it they just got lazy. MMOs with pet classes are typically necromancers or warlocks and often use affliction magic. One classic spell that was missing from the game? Bio. They took off with bio and ran with it. We end up with bio, bio II, miasma, miasma II, bane, fester, and virus. I personally wish that we got elemental dots like drown, shock, choke, burn, etc. from FFXI even the helix-elemental spells from SCH from FFXI. This would fit better with the lore of the job and would make more sense when we become summoners and are able to call upon the power of pure elemental beings. I do hope that for the expansion we do get more pet focused abilities.

I started playing SMN a lot recently, and I definitely enjoy the class as it is, do not want a rework.

Spells that give elemental dots is a good interpretation of the Arcanist Lore which uses geometry and Arcane Magic. The Arcanist has both Black and White Magic so their spell set along with what they currently have should include Shadow Flare II, Gravity, Gravity II, Drown, Shock, Fire Burn, Wind Burn and Quake. The Summoner should be more Pet focused and their Summons should have unique elemental abilities that are unique to the element they represent.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Spells that give elemental dots is a good interpretation of the Arcanist Lore which uses geometry and Arcane Magic. The Arcanist has both Black and White Magic so their spell set along with what they currently have should include Shadow Flare II, Gravity, Gravity II, Drown, Shock, Fire Burn, Wind Burn and Quake. The Summoner should be more Pet focused and their Summons should have unique elemental abilities that are unique to the element they represent.

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Summoners should be more pet-focused by increasing their already wide array of spells. Akiza, you never fail to deliver on lack of logic.

Summoner;
“The beast tribes of Eorzea worship and summon forth beings known as primals, among which are Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan. Yet what is a god to one man is a demon to another, for the city-states of Eorzea see these beings as a grave threat to their collective survival.
In times immemorial, there lived mages who had not only the power to summon the primals, but also the means to transmute the primals' essences, thus binding them to their will. Known simply as summoners, the existence of these men and women and their arcane art have been all but lost to the ages.”
—Game Description

Arcanist;
“The roots of arcanima can be traced back to the esoteric calculations practiced by the people of the south sea isles. It was their efforts to express the nature of aether in mathematical terms that gave rise to the exacting science that we practice today. These definitive formulas are represented by "arcane geometries"--patterns that allow arcanists to manipulate aetheric energy and produce specific effects. The ability to shape this energy also allow practitioners to manifest arcane entities known collectively as "Carbuncle." This is perhaps the most defining power attributed to the art of arcanima. ”
—Thubyrgeim, on arcanima

I keep seeing people bring up geometry for the class like they should be slinging triangles and trapezoids instead of bolts of arcane energy. Arcanist study aether and over time have found out how to manipulate the aether. The developed formulas to achieve the same effect each time, in the form of geometric paterns (i.e. spell circles). They use books because they are collections of the formulas so they do no have to redraw the patterns every time they use a spell (looks at your book in game).

In other words they use science to control magic. White mage is spiritual/natural bond. Black mage is occult. They each use a method that suits them to control aether (magical energy, I.E. Magic) to achieve their job goals, the types of magic are separated into "schools/guilds/colors" are actually all forms of arcane magic.

Ur right. Elemental dots fit very good

Not a rework of the class, but more lore to explain basis behind DOT mechanics, and expand on egis.

Arcanist control magic with science while the Black Mage control magic through occultist means which explains the DOT mechanics. The developer should expand the Arcanist spells to include
-Gravity, Gravity II and Gravity III
-Elemental Dots- Fire Burn, Wind Burn, Shock, Quake, Drown and Freeze
-Shadow Flare II and Shadow Flare III
Summoner
-Expand on Pet Buffs
-Expand on Pet Command attacks
-Expand on the array of Pet abilities to include 8 unique moves

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Originally Posted by Akiza

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Arcanists use DoTs because they're tacticians. They use Bio, Miasma, and Virus to weaken their opponents and damage them over time. They summon the familiar, Carbuncle, to act as their primary means of attack. Conjurers and Thaumaturges utilize the elements of creation and destruction respectively. The only thing elemental that Arcanists and Summoners harness is their familiars. We're going to be getting the full gamut of elemental Egi's when the expansion hits. There will also be Job-related Limit Breaks in a future patch. These are facts.

Can't believe this is still going on. The simple answer is no. What everyone seems to be forgetting is that SMN is not the main focus of being a SMN; ACN is. ACN use Mathmatics to manipulate aether to use it how they see fit. What does this mean? It means they can just blast straight unaspected aether (ruin, ruinII with a blind debuff), they can summon minions (the carbuncle), they can make you sick (bio, miasma, ect.), or whatever SE wants them to be able to do. SMN is nothing more than a specialized extention of that in the fact that they can now summon egis of certain primals. If they were to rework SMN they would have to make a new class for SMN to branch from and that would make just about as much sense as it coming from ACN. SMN is perfectly fine the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Lethorian

Can't believe this is still going on. The simple answer is no. What everyone seems to be forgetting is that SMN is not the main focus of being a SMN; ACN is. ACN use Mathmatics to manipulate aether to use it how they see fit. What does this mean? It means they can just blast straight unaspected aether (ruin, ruinII with a blind debuff), they can summon minions (the carbuncle), they can make you sick (bio, miasma, ect.), or whatever SE wants them to be able to do. SMN is nothing more than a specialized extention of that in the fact that they can now summon egis of certain primals. If they were to rework SMN they would have to make a new class for SMN to branch from and that would make just about as much sense as it coming from ACN. SMN is perfectly fine the way it is.

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"I'm afraid your logic, class to job rules and lore facts are not enough for the simple fact that I dreamed otherwise yesterday."

^

This is what it boils down to when listening to the other side from your point of view. You're right, there is no reason to keep trying to debate aside from reading the hilarious responses that often pop up.

Just give the egi's a remodel 1/4 of their regular Size.

More signature attacks like mountain buster, upheaval and landslide.

A true re balance of all egi's

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Originally Posted by melflomil

Just give the egi's a remodel 1/4 of their regular Size.

More signature attacks like mountain buster, upheaval and landslide.

A true re balance of all egi's

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I wonder if people even look at the name of the egi's abilities before asking for new ones:

http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Mountain_Buster
http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Landslide

Yes but more needs to be developed from this.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

Yes but more needs to be developed from this.

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And it will when the expansion hits and the level cap is raised. We've known this information for the longest time now, just like how we have proof from an official post that no changes will be made to the current pets or the summoner job (at least until the expansion), hence why this whole thread is pointless. And even if Summoner were to be modified at that point it's because the Armoury System as a whole will go through changes, not just one class.

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Originally Posted by BloodPact

snip.

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I was responding to something earlier, either way your response is unnecessary

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Originally Posted by melflomil

Just give the egi's a remodel 1/4 of their regular Size.

More signature attacks like mountain buster, upheaval and landslide.

A true re balance of all egi's

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I hated SMN when this game first came out, I mained BRD and was extremely interested in SMN until I saw the Egis. They were ugly little floating blobs that barely even resembled their primal counterpart. It was a huge turn off from the job until one day watching one of the CSs of the beast tribes summoning a primal it hit me...

Think about the primals and what is normally required to summon them, the beast tribes go through terrible lengths to call them forth. Hundreds of souls are sacrificed in order for a primal to enter the world. Right off the bat it would be dumb if you summoned an egi that was a 1/4 direct scale of a primal without it having 1/4 direct scale of it's power. It, then, wouldn't make sense for one person to be able to wield 1/4 of that power by simply reading a diagram from a book in comparison. Another thing to look at is how many SMN are running around the world. If 4 SMN each summoned their titan that would essentially mean that all of titan was summoned and wouldn't make sense if any more than that were summoned in general. SMNs are able to call forth the essence of a primal which makes a ton more sense when you stack it up against the way primals normally work. Sure they may not be the most aesthetically pleasing but in this game world right now they fit in a way that makes sense with the continuity of the world.

lol really............

No. Summoners are fine as is. Plus it leaves alot of room for some awesome skills in the future whenever the level cap is increased. Nothing is broken about them so why fix it?

Its not a broken issue its anothsr kind of problem. The point is that smn dosent look like a smn at all. I repeat For the 1000th time. Y a smn uses poisons? Like bio miasma etc. Cmon guys use ur heads. If it was a dot its ok but not a poison dot. Change name and visual effect its ok....but y poisons.