What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

Whether you're on the "i loved it" or "i hated it" train, I don't ever recall seeing this much dislike for shadowbringers storyline. it's actually kinda sad.

I actually find it very peculiar because the woman who wrote SHB won an award, surely she didn't think that Endwalker was wrapped up well?

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Originally Posted by crimsonwitch

I actually find it very peculiar because the woman who wrote SHB won an award, surely she didn't think that Endwalker was wrapped up well?

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She wrote Endwalker as well, I can't see any reason she isn't proud of her writing here. Any written work has fans and critics and some are loved more than others, just the way of things.

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Originally Posted by Velnora

That all sounds like something that shouldn't have been introduced in the second to last zone, lol.

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I kinda do agree in some ways, where the formal explanation felt a bit sudden initially (more in a "oh, it's introduced and fully explained /this/ expansion"). Though, Nidhana mentions "Akasa" which is a word for Dynamis as understood (very lightly) by the present, sundered world (and this is introduced at the tail end of... I believe after Zot, when leaving Thavnair -- which is roughly where I went to "I assume Akasa, an emotional energy, has something to do with the core plot"). There are other little bits here and there that reference Dynamis, though the vast majority of people going through a story probably wouldn't notice since they're very off to the side (ie: Dynamis Dice was introduced in Shadowbringers, as part of the Bozja content and, even there, it's just an item that has a chance to randomly roll things like Healer LB3 or Doom) or the way Limit Break plays into it (which usually reads something like "Breaking the Bounds of Your Limits" which can be vague, though there were people thinking it was related to a different type of energy for a while, but it's a very small and easy to miss thing since on the surface one can just think "oh, breaking normal mortal limits = using more aether than usually possible").

Song of Oblivion was referenced back in Stormblood, during the Omega Raids I think.

There are bits speckled in a long time back, but they're really small and incredibly easy bits to miss since they're not really pointed out in the MSQ itself.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

She wrote Endwalker as well, I can't see any reason she isn't proud of her writing here. Any written work has fans and critics and some are loved more than others, just the way of things.

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I mean, i'm not saying she wouldn't be proud, but i feel like Japanese are perfectionistic in their work. So, im not sure how Ishikawa-san missed the part where venat knew world was gonna end and just decided to place hope on the WoL because we're cool. It is silly writing IMHO.
Meteion and everything else was fine and acceptable, but the way venat was portrayed as the "knower of all" but just kinda existed as the crystal because timeloop was weird. They could've greatly improved the storyline by allowed her memories to get wiped and make hydaelyn of her own volition. Unless I missed something. But still, I don't think that would've solved the issue of the convocation summoning zodiark..

I don't think wrapping everything up in 6.0 was the right decision. Despite it being the same main scenario writer, EW didn't flow seamlessly from ShB. There were a surprising amount of inconsistencies. ShB seemed to be laying down a foundation that was discarded in EW for new construction. As a result, my impression is there were too many cooks in the kitchen with EW. I suppose there would be for the finale, but the narrative suffered for it, IMO. The response shouldn't be "it works if you don't think about it", especially with how fandoms love to dissect lore.

Also, as someone relatively new to the game, FFXIV players have a bizarre intolerance of critical feedback. Whenever someone posts something negative people feel compelled to dismiss their arguments and marginalize them as a minority. Nobody's supposed to discuss that they didn't like something or why? It's been a common complaint on Reddit that people can't post their thoughts without being downvoted. I don't engage in Twitter or Discord, but I've heard the same oppressive behavior exists there as well. The forums seem to have enough push back to not put up with that behavior hence people feel more comfortable sharing their thoughts here.

Ik this is unrleated to the topic. But Heavensward is the best written expansion in FFXIV

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Also, as someone relatively new to the game, FFXIV players have a bizarre intolerance of critical feedback. Whenever someone posts something negatively people feel compelled to dismiss their arguments and marginalize them as a minority.

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I’ve noticed this too. It’s actually pretty off-putting.

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Originally Posted by Narigo1

Ik this is unrleated to the topic. But Heavensward is the best written expansion in FFXIV

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Completely agree! HW is my favorite expansion in regards to the story and aesthetics. For me, there was a great balance between fantasy and more “grounded” moments.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

That’s my point. You’re making objective statements about story moments when they are by definition based on subjective feelings. A lot of people liked the story and don’t feel it had “cheap” moments. You disagree. That’s okay. But disparaging the story and claiming it was bad is different from saying, “I didn’t like it.”

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Oh, so it's only subjective when "the story is bad", but it's objective when "the story is good". Let's face it, you guys also spin your own perspective-based opinion as a fact.

This community is a hypocrite. People bashed SB so much and saying it's good is enough to get you get laughed at, and yet now there are people who dislike ShB/EW, it's all "no, the story is good, you're just haters/it's just your opinion!!1!". People who dare riticize the story are treated like criminal.

Getting sidetracked, but does anyone remember the reason why the Ancients want to bring back the people sacrificed to Zodiark, back in Shadowbringers (not the reason they tell us in EW)?

I tried to re-watch the cutscene again, but only got the "we will wait for the world to burst with vitality, then sacrifice it to bring back our people wh were sacrificed".

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Getting sidetracked, but does anyone remember the reason why the Ancients want to bring back the people sacrificed to Zodiark, back in Shadowbringers (not the reason they tell us in EW)?

I tried to re-watch the cutscene again, but only got the "we will wait for the world to burst with vitality, then sacrifice it to bring back our people wh were sacrificed".

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The reason has never changed, so I'm not sure why you're asking. They want to bring back the ones who were sacrificed precisely because they were sacrificed. They want to bring back their families and friends.

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Originally Posted by Mirhd

The reason has never changed, so I'm not sure why you're asking. They want to bring back the ones who were sacrificed precisely because they were sacrificed. They want to bring back their families and friends.

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Yep. Which, in itself, is completely understandable - and they seemingly had the means to do as much. It's why the final zone felt so cheap to me. On one hand, literally everybody else is told to 'move on' but when the Warrior of Light loses his companions, they're brought back from the dead. In Y'shtola's case it isn't the first or even second time, either.

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Originally Posted by crimsonwitch

I mean, i'm not saying she wouldn't be proud, but i feel like Japanese are perfectionistic in their work. So, im not sure how Ishikawa-san missed the part where venat knew world was gonna end and just decided to place hope on the WoL because we're cool. It is silly writing IMHO.
Meteion and everything else was fine and acceptable, but the way venat was portrayed as the "knower of all" but just kinda existed as the crystal because timeloop was weird. They could've greatly improved the storyline by allowed her memories to get wiped and make hydaelyn of her own volition. Unless I missed something. But still, I don't think that would've solved the issue of the convocation summoning zodiark..

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How would Venat have known about the threat of Meteion if her memories were wiped as well? I also don't see the issue with her placing her hopes on the WoL given we literally recant to her about all the world ending threats and dangers we've overcome up to that point. Placing my faith in a ridiculously powerful warrior capable of overcoming challenges and despair again and again seems a pretty safe bet to me when facing a foe who wields despair as a weapon.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I also don't see the issue with her placing her hopes on the WoL given we literally recant to her about all the world ending threats and dangers we've overcome up to that point. Placing my faith in a ridiculously powerful warrior capable of overcoming challenges and despair again and again seems a pretty safe bet to me when facing a foe who wields despair as a weapon.

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I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want someone wiping out my friends, family, neighbours, cat and literally every single person I have ever known or met because some deluded individual wanted to become a 'supreme deity' and chose to sell out both her race and civilisation for the sake of a time traveller who she had known for less than a day.

Each to their own, though!

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want someone wiping out my friends, family, neighbours, cat and literally every single person I have ever known or met because some deluded individual wanted to become a 'supreme deity' and chose to sell out both her race and civilisation for the sake of a time traveller who she had known for less than a day.

Each to their own, though!

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Ah yes because becoming "a supreme deity" was completely Venat's endgame for summoning Hydealyn, must have missed that tidbit in the story. /shrug

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Ah yes because becoming "a supreme deity" was completely Venat's endgame for summoning Hydealyn, must have missed that tidbit in the story. /shrug

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It wasn't her primary motivation but that's what she referred to herself as, after lying repeatedly about the circumstances surrounding the downfall of her people, leading others to falsely believe that Zodiark was an evil, power-hungry entity and inflicting untold suffering upon many individuals without their consent. Furthermore despite fawning over the player character's memories she still robbed her own people not only of their lives but the connections they had to loved ones as well as their memories.

It's more explicit in the French localisation but Venat herself, as Hydaelyn, admits that she can't really think of an excuse for what she did. Though in the English localisation, Venat concedes that there was no kindness or justice in the act.

In other words, people are absolutely free to consider her to be monstrous and treacherous if they see fit. As many more would, I suspect, if it were their loved ones that had been screwed over by her actions.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It wasn't her primary motivation but that's what she referred to herself as, after lying repeatedly about the circumstances surrounding the downfall of her people, leading others to falsely believe that Zodiark was an evil, power-hungry entity and inflicting untold suffering upon many individuals without their consent. Furthermore despite fawning over the player character's memories she still robbed her own people not only of their lives but the connections they had to loved ones as well as their memories.

It's more explicit in the French localisation but Venat herself, as Hydaelyn, admits that she can't really think of an excuse for what she did. Though in the English localisation, Venat concedes that there was no kindness or justice in the act.

In other words, people are absolutely free to consider her to be monstrous and treacherous if they see fit. As many more would, I suspect, if it were their loved ones that had been screwed over by her actions.

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I'm not calling her justice or good or any of that. crimsonwitch made a comment that it was silly writing to bet on the WoL in that situation and I disagree. The situation at hand makes perfect sense to me why she would place her hopes on the WoL. Yes, she refers to herself as a supreme deity because that is effectively what she has become, but that doesn't give any real insight to her motivation toward summoning Hydealyn. I don't believe Hydealyn was anymore morally justified sacrificing a fraction of her people to sunder the world and give the sundered mankind a means of overcoming Meteion than Zodiark was for sacrificing his followers to save the ancient world.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

How would Venat have known about the threat of Meteion if her memories were wiped as well? I also don't see the issue with her placing her hopes on the WoL given we literally recant to her about all the world ending threats and dangers we've overcome up to that point. Placing my faith in a ridiculously powerful warrior capable of overcoming challenges and despair again and again seems a pretty safe bet to me when facing a foe who wields despair as a weapon.

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I wouldn't say a safe bet at all. Her plan outright failed in the 8UC timeline where the WoL dies. Plus, to get back to the WoL she met in Elpis required multiple rejoinings to occur. It makes the events of HW and ShB even more shady if you consider she was purposely holding off on saving the First because it needed to be rejoined in one timeline and come close to it in another.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I wouldn't say a safe bet at all. Her plan outright failed in the 8UC timeline where the WoL dies. Plus, to get back to the WoL she met in Elpis required multiple rejoinings to occur. It makes the events of HW and ShB even more shady if you consider she was purposely holding off on saving the First because it needed to be rejoined in one timeline and come close to it in another.

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You're assuming she is cognizant of what goes on in other timelines divergent to the one she exists in and understands all the branching timeways. The way I see it, the Hydealyn of the 8UC timeline for all we know made the exact same choices as our Hydealyn up to the point their WoL died because to them they were in the only timeline. Or how would you explain 8UC timleine Hydealyn knowing they are 8UC timeline Hydealyn?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Death may not be the only solution, but clearly keeping them alive is adding more problems.

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What problems?

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Considering the whole ultima thule plot point completely contradicts the theme of the expansion. I’ve stated it many times but it’s true and it’s just not right lol.

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How so?

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Also, it’s arguable for your former point. Considering there’s always been some bias towards Hydaelyn, it would’ve been nice for once for there to be equality. Especially since they want to say time and time again not to judge a book by its cover. I’m still waiting for us to get some minions of the antagonists at any rate. Where’s our Emet,Hythlo,Zodiark,Elidibus minions hm? Seems there’s even some bias in regards to that. Venat gets hers for genociding the world, we should get some for the ascians then.

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Not judging a book by its cover doesn't mean all books have to be treated the same. On the contrary, it means even if they get different treatment, you can still appreciate the book that lacks the "appreciation" that you think it deserves. Equality has nothing to do with whether or not you should judge a book by its cover.

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Originally Posted by Aneshda

We are Azem, cause Azem is a Title, that Emet-Selch gave the WoL during the Fight with Elidibus.

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I wasn't talking about the title. Venat was Azem too, and we are not Venat.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Also, just because a portion of the community enjoyed the story doesn’t mean there aren’t problems with it. Considering a lot of those people are the same ones who are saying don’t look too into it.

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On the other hand, just because a portion of the community has a problem with the story doesn't mean everyone else should either.

And there is indeed such a thing as looking too deep into something that you can view something harmless to be an issue.

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Originally Posted by Conundrum

Lets turn the question around. Why are you all so adamant that no one should die? I mean specifics, like addressing my reason why you need occasional deaths.

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Eh, personally, I am not adamant that no one should die. I believe that's the writer's call to make, and they have made their choice. I do not agree that anyone has to die for the story to be "real," but I have no problem with anyone dying.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Yep. Which, in itself, is completely understandable - and they seemingly had the means to do as much. It's why the final zone felt so cheap to me. On one hand, literally everybody else is told to 'move on' but when the Warrior of Light loses his companions, they're brought back from the dead. In Y'shtola's case it isn't the first or even second time, either.

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Why are you ignoring the method by which the Ascians are using to bring back their dead? That completely differentiates it from what happened to us, and only enhances the fact that it's not their desire to bring back their dead that we have a problem with.

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Originally Posted by Mirhd

The reason has never changed, so I'm not sure why you're asking. They want to bring back the ones who were sacrificed precisely because they were sacrificed. They want to bring back their families and friends.

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I was asking because it's been years since I play ShB, and I'm half-sure I misremember things by unintentionally mixing up the details -_-

Better ask and be corrected than staying mistaken, amiright

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

You're assuming she is cognizant of what goes on in other timelines divergent to the one she exists in and understands all the branching timeways. The way I see it, the Hydealyn of the 8UC timeline for all we know made the exact same choices as our Hydealyn up to the point their WoL died because to them they were in the only timeline. Or how would you explain 8UC timleine Hydealyn knowing they are 8UC timeline Hydealyn?

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Why does she need to be cognisant of it for it to count as an example of failure? Also, the WoL, who filled her in, is aware of it.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Why are you ignoring the method by which the Ascians are using to bring back their dead? That completely differentiates it from what happened to us, and only enhances the fact that it's not their desire to bring back their dead that we have a problem with.

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She's the one who put the Ascians in that position, after fracturing every life on the planet and eliminating her kind to the point she even refers to herself as the "last of my kind", alongside "supreme deity". Besides, they're not talking about the Ascians but the sacrifices planned before the sundering but after the planet was revitalised. Sacrifices which not a single source is specific on (beyond references like "new life" after Zodiark stimulated regrowth of the planet), and which her group does not dispute the ethics of, suggesting they may well be something closer to the entities created in Elpis. Her group's issue is they think the ancients should "move on" to avoid an eventual doom, but as far as we can tell, she never really informs her people as to the why of it beyond vague musings about suffering.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

You're assuming she is cognizant of what goes on in other timelines divergent to the one she exists in and understands all the branching timeways. The way I see it, the Hydealyn of the 8UC timeline for all we know made the exact same choices as our Hydealyn up to the point their WoL died because to them they were in the only timeline. Or how would you explain 8UC timleine Hydealyn knowing they are 8UC timeline Hydealyn?

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I'm not assuming anything. She wouldn't know, thus holding off on intervening with the First. We know now that she had the knowledge and the power reserves to nip the Flood of Light in the bud had she wanted. This is the problem with her retaining memories of the future and supposedly wanting to get back to the WoL, it makes every choice she made along the way morally questionable.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I'm not assuming anything. She wouldn't know, thus holding off on intervening with the First. We know now that she had the knowledge and the power reserves to nip the Flood of Light in the bud had she wanted. This is the problem with her retaining memories of the future and supposedly wanting to get back to the WoL, it makes every choice she made along the way morally questionable.

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"even more shady if you consider she was purposely holding off on saving the First because it needed to be rejoined in one timeline and come close to it in another." this assumes the 8UC Hydealyn knew to condemn her First so that another timeline's Hydealyn could save theirs. The more likely answer is both assumed their First would be saved based on the events they heard and moved in that regards.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Why does she need to be cognisant of it for it to count as an example of failure? Also, the WoL, who filled her in, is aware of it.

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How else would you back up the claim that she held back saving the First so she could damn one First in one timeline and spare another in a different timeline, without her somehow knowing which timeline she was existing in to even make such a choice?

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Originally Posted by Velnora

It overwhelms the lack of aether. Even then, it still makes no sense, as the final days were still occuring during their time. And it still should be happening now.

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What will is controlling the inert Dynamis post Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Oh, so it's only subjective when "the story is bad", but it's objective when "the story is good". Let's face it, you guys also spin your own perspective-based opinion as a fact.

This community is a hypocrite. People bashed SB so much and saying it's good is enough to get you get laughed at, and yet now there are people who dislike ShB/EW, it's all "no, the story is good, you're just haters/it's just your opinion!!1!". People who dare riticize the story are treated like criminal.

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I’m not sure who you are grinding that axe for, but I think you’d be better served bringing it up with the person you have a problem with and not random people.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

I'm not assuming anything. She wouldn't know, thus holding off on intervening with the First. We know now that she had the knowledge and the power reserves to nip the Flood of Light in the bud had she wanted.

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https://i.imgur.com/ytUO9pv.jpg

She very clearly didn’t have that power.

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Originally Posted by linayar

What problems?

How so?

Not judging a book by its cover doesn't mean all books have to be treated the same. On the contrary, it means even if they get different treatment, you can still appreciate the book that lacks the "appreciation" that you think it deserves. Equality has nothing to do with whether or not you should judge a book by its cover.

I wasn't talking about the title. Venat was Azem too, and we are not Venat.

On the other hand, just because a portion of the community has a problem with the story doesn't mean everyone else should either.

And there is indeed such a thing as looking too deep into something that you can view something harmless to be an issue.

Eh, personally, I am not adamant that no one should die. I believe that's the writer's call to make, and they have made their choice. I do not agree that anyone has to die for the story to be "real," but I have no problem with anyone dying.

Why are you ignoring the method by which the Ascians are using to bring back their dead? That completely differentiates it from what happened to us, and only enhances the fact that it's not their desire to bring back their dead that we have a problem with.

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In this situation it does, because they state time and time again they’re essentially equal. Neither is good nor bad yet one is painted in a much better light than the other and is given far better treatment. As for the problems, it’s like i said, that plot point goes against the theme. The theme of this expansion and even since the start of the game has been loss,suffering,dealing with loss etc.It’s even in the main song of this expansion. Loss and fire. We see it throughout the expansions of characters having to deal with the death of close ones. Yet, this expansion in Ultima Thule, instead of accepting they’re gone, the scions are brought back from the dead. The very thing people have bashed the ascians/ancients for attempting to do for their people. A last side note on the hydaelyn and zodiark thing, i do find it a bit humorous how people say we don’t need both sides to be equal, yada yada, and yes i guarantee if it was the other way around and it was Hydaelyn who was shafted and portrayed not as good as Zodiark people would be raising pitchforks. In the end though my last comment still stands, where are the ascian minions and zodiark minion? How have we not gotten an Emet minion yet, but Venat of all people gets one for genociding the world.

So, I guess the Aether is still stagnating now that Zodiark is gone.... that seemed to happen independently of the whole Meteon story.... I wonder what that will mean.

In fact- I am not sure why the sky isn't still red...did I miss the explanation for that?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

the scions are brought back from the dead. .

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I don't want to nitpicking anything but they were not dead to begin with so we did not bring them back from the dead. they became the elements( like Estinien became the wind and so on) that paid the way forward for us. but they would eventually die if nothing would be done in time.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

So, I guess the Aether is still stagnating now that Zodiark is gone.... that seemed to happen independently of the whole Meteon story.... I wonder what that will mean.

In fact- I am not sure why the sky isn't still red...did I miss the explanation for that?

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The Star's aether current stagnation was still a result of the Song of Oblivion. Summoning Zodiark basically smeared sunscreen [extra aether] over the planet to stop it from getting sunburned.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

The Star's aether current stagnation was still a result of the Song of Oblivion. Summoning Zodiark basically smeared sunscreen [extra aether] over the planet to stop it from getting sunburned.

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Ahhh, I didn't catch that cause/effect. I thought the Aether stagnation was the window the song could get through, but that it was happening naturally.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

Ahhh, I didn't catch that cause/effect. I thought the Aether stagnation was the window the song could get through, but that it was happening naturally.

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Hermes gives an explaination after the group fills him in on the Final Days. Essentially because the Song was projected to the Star from outer space its effects were first felt in the locations where the currents were naturally thinnest then just deteriorated things from there.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Hermes gives an explaination after the group fills him in on the Final Days. Essentially because the Song was projected to the Star from outer space its effects were first felt in the locations where the currents were naturally thinnest then just deteriorated things from there.

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Yeah, I just interpreted that as a pre-existing issue that allowed the Song to get through.... I didn't realize that it actively caused the erosion of Aether.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

She's the one who put the Ascians in that position, after fracturing every life on the planet and eliminating her kind to the point she even refers to herself as the "last of my kind", alongside "supreme deity". Besides, they're not talking about the Ascians but the sacrifices planned before the sundering but after the planet was revitalised. Sacrifices which not a single source is specific on (beyond references like "new life" after Zodiark stimulated regrowth of the planet), and which her group does not dispute the ethics of, suggesting they may well be something closer to the entities created in Elpis. Her group's issue is they think the ancients should "move on" to avoid an eventual doom, but as far as we can tell, she never really informs her people as to the why of it beyond vague musings about suffering.

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There were only two sacrifices made, and that was of the Ancients when summoning Zodiark and Hydaelyn, and both times were self-sacrifices.

Venat's group objected to the non-self-sacrifice that Zodiark's group was planning.

So my point is the same regardless of whether it's talking about the Ascians after the sundering or before. We didn't need to sacrifice anyone to bring back our dead.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

In this situation it does, because they state time and time again they’re essentially equal. Neither is good nor bad yet one is painted in a much better light than the other and is given far better treatment.

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Again, how they can be viewed morally has nothing to do with their treatment/recognition.

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As for the problems, it’s like i said, that plot point goes against the theme. The theme of this expansion and even since the start of the game has been loss,suffering,dealing with loss etc.It’s even in the main song of this expansion. Loss and fire. We see it throughout the expansions of characters having to deal with the death of close ones. Yet, this expansion in Ultima Thule, instead of accepting they’re gone, the scions are brought back from the dead. The very thing people have bashed the ascians/ancients for attempting to do for their people.

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But the WoL did accept their sacrifice. It wasn't until they were able to be safely returned that it was done. There's no problem here in terms of theme because the point of living in hope remains, and part of that hope is that sometimes there is a good ending. The problem with Meteion's despair is ultimate loss of hope due to the final end regardless of any joy that could be had in the meantime.

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A last side note on the hydaelyn and zodiark thing, i do find it a bit humorous how people say we don’t need both sides to be equal, yada yada, and yes i guarantee if it was the other way around and it was Hydaelyn who was shafted and portrayed not as good as Zodiark people would be raising pitchforks. In the end though my last comment still stands, where are the ascian minions and zodiark minion? How have we not gotten an Emet minion yet, but Venat of all people gets one for genociding the world.

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Well, you can't guarantee that because it didn't happen. What-if scenarios is irrelevant. Regardless, it's their choice to make any minion they want. Feel free to request it, but if they don't make it, that has nothing to do with the story.

I have no problem with Zodiark in Endwalker, but it's important to keep in mind that the real Zodiark fight is Seat of Sacrifice. The Dark Inside is just Fandaniel piloting a Zodiark suit with crazy cosmic powers.

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Originally Posted by linayar

There were only two sacrifices made, and that was of the Ancients when summoning Zodiark and Hydaelyn, and both times were self-sacrifices.

Venat's group objected to the non-self-sacrifice that Zodiark's group was planning.

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Yes, but not because a sacrifice was involved, but because she believed her people would eventually doom themselves if all went back to how it used to be. This is the case both in SHB (where the scene is not specific to what their concern was about), and EW, where she believes it'll meet the fate of the star identified in Meteion's report. Stopping the sacrifices and surrendering the star to the vague "new lives" is ancillary to that goal...

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So my point is the same regardless of whether it's talking about the Ascians after the sundering or before. We didn't need to sacrifice anyone to bring back our dead.

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Without any knowledge of what the ancients intended to sacrifice, we've little awareness of whether an "anyone" as opposed to "anything" is even involved, and the relevant parties put more focus on the ultimate outcome (their doom repeating) than the means. As for the Ascians? They were left in the unfortunate position where the Rejoinings are the only means they have to reverse what she did.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Yes, but not because a sacrifice was involved, but because she believed her people would eventually doom themselves if all went back to how it used to be. This is the case both in SHB (where the scene is not specific to what their concern was about), and EW, where she believes it'll meet the fate of the star identified in Meteion's report. Stopping the sacrifices and surrendering the star to the vague "new lives" is ancillary to that goal...



Without any knowledge of what the ancients intended to sacrifice, we've little awareness of whether an "anyone" as opposed to "anything" is even involved, and the relevant parties put more focus on the ultimate outcome (their doom repeating) than the means. As for the Ascians? They were left in the unfortunate position where the Rejoinings are the only means they have to reverse what she did.

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And the rejoining is at the center of our conflict with them. This story is told from our point of view. Regardless of their reason or who you think is at fault, we are dealing with the fact that they want to kill us to save their dead. We're not arguing about their desired outcome, but the means by which they want to reach that outcome. And if the rejoining is the only way, then there is no doubt that we will oppose them.

Either way, it still differs from our situation in Ultima Thule.

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Originally Posted by Fayt1203

I don't want to nitpicking anything but they were not dead to begin with so we did not bring them back from the dead. they became the elements( like Estinien became the wind and so on) that paid the way forward for us. but they would eventually die if nothing would be done in time.

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They were for all intents and purposes dead had we not intervened. The point is, the theme has been learning to deal with loss and death and moving forward. Yet we still bring them back so what exactly is the moral of the story here? Just be the main protagonists of the story and you can be resurrected? Think about all of the people in Thavnair and Garlemald who actually had to suffer. Meanwhile the scions “sacrifice” themselves only to be brought back moments later. So much for loss and suffering, they felt none of it. That’s exactly my point. It’s no different than the whole ticking time bomb thing in ShB with the scions only for it to amount to nothing. It’s these constant death flags and fakeout deaths that just amount to nothing that attributed to dislike of this expansion. Not very good writing imo.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

They were for all intents and purposes dead had we not intervened. The point is, the theme has been learning to deal with loss and death and moving forward. Yet we still bring them back so what exactly is the moral of the story here? Just be the main protagonists of the story and you can be resurrected? Think about all of the people in Thavnair and Garlemald who actually had to suffer. Meanwhile the scions “sacrifice” themselves only to be brought back moments later. So much for loss and suffering, they felt none of it. That’s exactly my point. It’s no different than the whole ticking time bomb thing in ShB with the scions only for it to amount to nothing. It’s these constant death flags and fakeout deaths that just amount to nothing that attributed to dislike of this expansion. Not very good writing imo.

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Originally Posted by Berteaux_Braumegain

I have no problem with Zodiark in Endwalker, but it's important to keep in mind that the real Zodiark fight is Seat of Sacrifice. The Dark Inside is just Fandaniel piloting a Zodiark suit with crazy cosmic powers.

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Even that was a let down for me though. Elidibus is one of my favorite characters so to see him just reduced and used as ff1 fanservice was a letdown to say the least. Not to mention he didnt really tap into Zodiark's power much during the fight. All this talk about him bringing balance etc, and there wasnt really any balance shtick in his fight. Im not sure what part of his fight really screams Zodiark?

Elidibus is definitely shafted in terms of screentime, which is a shame because he likely could have balanced the discussion to not be so skewed in Hydaelyn's favor, and bring back some of the nuance Shadowbringers built up, if he'd only had more scenes. That being said, I honestly really like the way his final fight was handled in 5.3, even though it is very much FF1 fanservice. I think what Berteaux was suggesting earlier was that while not Zodiark in form, Elidibus in that moment embodies what Zodiark was always meant to be, a savior made to bring about the world's salvation. The actual Zodiark you fight is a sundered husk of his former self, being piloted by a raving madman. Elidibus was the one selected to control Zodiark and stop the Final Days, he is his true heart, so in many ways he truly is as he proclaims: 'Mankind's first hero' and the true Zodiark.

And if I may also be a bit self-indulgent, I like to think with Endwalker in mind, that some of the lyrics in his theme 'To the Edge' allude to the Convocation acting without the knowledge that Venat could have provided to them, and how even he might have felt deep inside that Zodiark was a temporary solution to a much larger problem, that couldn't be seen:

"Without a compass, wandering, lost in lies of faith.
(Faith slowly wasting away)
Only alive in fighting death's amber embrace.
(Our hearts beat, loud, unafraid)
On hands and knees we pray to Gods we've never seen."

It's really interesting, it seems to me like part of him believed that there was something deeper going on, and the way the lyrics go, it makes it seem like he knew they were stumbling around blind to something important.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

She very clearly didn’t have that power.

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She did, as we learn during her trial, she just didn't want to use it to save the First. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised given her contingency plan was to abandon the shards anyway. Regardless, the problem with knowing the future is she should've had an eye on Ardbert to ensure the Flood never happened in the first place.

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Originally Posted by SpectrePhantasia

Elidibus is definitely shafted in terms of screentime, which is a shame because he likely could have balanced the discussion to not be so skewed in Hydaelyn's favor, and bring back some of the nuance Shadowbringers built up, if he'd only had more scenes.

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It makes me wonder what's planned for Pandemonium. He also wasn't summoned back along with Emet and Hythlodaeus, wasn't present during their walk past us during the credits, and wasn't featured in the post-credit art either. Since he "died" sending the WoL to the past you think he'd be seen somewhere along the way.

I loved one of his final lines, "May you have...the joy of it. The burden...and the solitude." Given that he was supposed to be acting as a mediator during the Final Days, I'm sure he had some stories to tell.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

T The point is, the theme has been learning to deal with loss and death and moving forward. Yet we still bring them back so what exactly is the moral of the story here? Just be the main protagonists of the story and you can be resurrected? Think about all of the people in Thavnair and Garlemald who actually had to suffer. Meanwhile the scions “sacrifice” themselves only to be brought back moments later. So much for loss and suffering, they felt none of it. That’s exactly my point. It’s no different than the whole ticking time bomb thing in ShB with the scions only for it to amount to nothing. It’s these constant death flags and fakeout deaths that just amount to nothing that attributed to dislike of this expansion. Not very good writing imo.

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just so you know that theme has been going on since heavensward.
more i read more it feel like that you are just salty that none of the main cast died or the theme does not apply because none of the main cast died. it could just be me though, Everyone Interpret the story in different way ofc