All Greed on Alliance loot

There will be a massively sharp decline in Alliance Raids now. Heck people will scramble to do the new one, just so they can get it done, get the coin etc. They won't run it if they can get better gear elsewhere. Not to mention this will now make people look at savage content for getting the better gear rather than using the coins to upgrade. I can't remember if the coin was the better route or not but I feel that savage gear was always better.

People overestimate how many players are willing to queue up each week even for the sake of upgrade items. Not everybody bothers to cap tomes, either - especially if they're not doing any high end content.

If the overall package gives less for the time invested, then less people will bother - at least the old system had the opportunity to get the upgrade items and try for glamour. Now it's going to be even harder to get glamour stuff.

I bet SE is already forseeing a sharp decline in Alliance Raids now with this stupid decision, you dont shoot yourself in the foot when you want players to run your content. Just look at Destiny 2 and its steadily declining playerbase, dont be like them.

Just keep the loot rules the same, hell maybe up the loot drops from each boss cause getting only one or two drops per boss, when you need to run the same raids over and over again to get a complete set is annoying as all hell

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Originally Posted by Theodric

If the overall package gives less for the time invested, then less people will bother - at least the old system had the opportunity to get the upgrade items and try for glamour. Now it's going to be even harder to get glamour stuff.

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Yeah, agreed. I used to queue up for 24 mans 5-10 times a week (sometimes more) to try getting a particular drop, always running on the job I wanted the gear for. Many times that still wasn't enough, and I would end up having to just grab whatever I could the night before weekly resets.

24 man drops becoming greed only makes the chances so bad that I won't be trying to farm them anymore. It took me around a month of that to get the piece I wanted from Rabanastre - there is no way I'm going to put that much time into something with more than double the chance of failure now. Ain't nobody got time for that.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it SE. :(

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Originally Posted by Theodric

People overestimate how many players are willing to queue up each week even for the sake of upgrade items. Not everybody bothers to cap tomes, either - especially if they're not doing any high end content.

If the overall package gives less for the time invested, then less people will bother - at least the old system had the opportunity to get the upgrade items and try for glamour. Now it's going to be even harder to get glamour stuff.

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Hell, I have an alt that I refuse to try and keep geared as I barely have time to keep my main even mildly up to snuff. I always get her geared via alliance raids and the occasionally crafted item because it's less time investment than trying to break my face gathering tomes for /another/ character when I'm already on a semi-hiatus from the game. This choice basically ensured I'm not even going to bother trying to keep her geared anymore.

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Originally Posted by Pyro2hell3

i don't what they were trying to do but I'm pretty all this will really do is make the new 24 dead and impossible to get a full 24 people for on any day other then Tuesday

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Yeah, people won't even go in for their weekly upgrade token.
They'll even probably unsubscribe.

The game is dead folks.

I said it once and I will just say it again: DO NOT put greed only into dungeons where the gear is infinitely accesible throughout the entire week. As long as the gear is limited to 1 per week this is fine, people will be mindfull of what they roll on. When it is uncapped and you still want a sinlge gear piece from any of these dungeons you are basically forced to beg your party to not roll on certain gear and are at the mercy of those up to 7 absolutely random people.

And yeh... people will roll just to get GC seals, because making submarines is not really kind on them.

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Originally Posted by Bahati

If it ain't broke, don't fix it SE. :(

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They seem to love doing the opposite. If its at least fine for most players they change it (all greed) and if something is bad and limited for most people (like housing) they put years of band-aids on it and hope that it solves itself over time..at least that is the feeling I get after all this time playing this..

I'll be honest, I was hoping for a mistranslation from the live letters and stuff. But it seems SE is really intent on going with the "All Greed" loot rule for ALL 24-man alliance raids. I'll be among the many to say it's a bad idea.

This really is a stupid decision on SE's part. I know the official reasoning is that SE views 24-person Raid gear as 'catch-up gear' for secondary jobs, but I don't understand why they'd want to eliminate the incentive to actually play secondary jobs. If I'm playing BLM as a secondary, I really shouldn't be able to queue up as a WHM and have the same chance at the gear. It's ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

This is likely going to kill all 24 man raids period. Let's be honest a lot of the drive for max level characters to even revisit the old raids are for glams. I'm still farming for the Yafaemi healer top on my alt, and that is the only reason I enter anything that isn't Rabanastre. After this change getting glam drops from old raids will be beyond rage inducing. Anything that can be turned into seals will be an 8 way free for all regardless of the drop going forward. As for Ridorana, well the last boss will probably be a free for all with everyone hitting greed to just get some kind of drop for the week and be done with it.

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Glamour has never been a drive for me; I revisit old 24-person Raids because the Alliance Roulette Mendacity reward isn't half bad. Sure, it's faster to do the "Expert" Roulette (I use the word 'expert' loosely here, because the dungeons are quite easy), but those runs carry much more potential stress for me as a Healer due to the small party size. In a group of 24 people, a bad tank or a damage dealer who favours sitting in AoE doesn't really cripple the run. In a 4-person dungeon, though? Good lord, a tank who pulls beyond his gear's capacity, or one who ignores cool-downs, is immensely stressful, for me at least. So this change won't really impact how often I run the 24-person Raids; it's just an illogical, pointless adjustment.

Edit / Aside: I have no horse in this race. I only queue up for this sort of content on my main (I craft for any secondary jobs - none of which are even to level 55), and I rarely view 24-person Raid items as upgrades. It's just the principle of the matter.

This needs to change. Adding my vote to need over greed. I'm a Dragoon main, I am not comfortable when it comes to tanking. But when I want that certain piece of gear, that I can only get from a raid, I'll man up and get through it. I don't want to run the raid like hundreds of times, to get an entire gear set, because I can't need on my class set anymore.

If you aren't willing to come to a particularly casual-level 24-man raid content as a job you want gear for, then I have a hard time understanding why you need the gear in the first place. As I understand it, if the JP players (or any players) are too self-conscious to come as anything but their main, geared-up job but then cry sour grapes when they lose to Need rolls (1 drop per week, mind you) to people actually participating in the content as said job/role, that's really their own problem. Certainly doesn't justify changing the whole loot system and essentially spoiling it for those biting the bullet and queuing as the appropriate job/role to increase their own odds against the raid's ridiculous loot system/pool.


The devs said they may revert these changes with enough community backlash, but I get the feeling that would likely happen later rather than sooner. Though I do love to be pleasantly surprised.

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Originally Posted by Cidel

If you aren't willing to come to a particularly casual-level 24-man raid content as a job you want gear for, then I have a hard time understanding why you need the gear in the first place. As I understand it, if the JP players (or any players) are too self-conscious to come as anything but their main, geared-up job but then cry sour grapes when they lose to Need rolls (1 drop per week, mind you) to people actually participating in the content as said job/role, that's really their own problem. Certainly doesn't justify changing the whole loot system and essentially spoiling it for those biting the bullet and queuing as the appropriate job/role to increase their own odds against the raid's ridiculous loot system/pool.


The devs said they may revert these changes with enough community backlash, but I get the feeling that would likely happen later rather than sooner. Though I do love to be pleasantly surprised.

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I'd also like to point out that if this is an issue of culture differences, it should be specific to the data center. I hadn't seen that particular line of reasoning before.

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Originally Posted by Barachim

This needs to change. Adding my vote to need over greed. I'm a Dragoon main, I am not comfortable when it comes to tanking. But when I want that certain piece of gear, that I can only get from a raid, I'll man up and get through it. I don't want to run the raid like hundreds of times, to get an entire gear set, because I can't need on my class set anymore.

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Yeah, it's totally fine if your two "alt-jobs healers" are derping around and let everyone die because they are terrible at playing that job in 24-raids simply because they want to call dibs on shiny. I mean, not only healers, but the other 23 other players with you.

24-raids are wipe fests, and they should remain like that. Up to 24 people playing sub-optimaly just because of loot. Without that, these raids would lose their flavor. Their salty flavor.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Yeah, it's totally fine if your two "alt-jobs healers" are derping around and let everyone die because they are terrible at playing that job in 24-raids simply because they want to call dibs on shiny. I mean, not only healers, but the other 23 other players with you.

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Just because someone is playing a job badly doesn't mean it's their alt-job. And if you're so upset with the performance of other players, perhaps you should consider moving to single-player games or forming a static.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Just because someone is playing a job badly doesn't mean it's their alt-job. And if you're so upset with the performance of other players, perhaps you should consider moving to single-player games or forming a static.

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I don't care about their performances. I just don't want to die and/or wipe because some players are forced to play a job they barely know how to play for a pair of boots.

Deaths happen. Every new Raid is a learning experience. I'd rather deal with a number of wipes and people getting better, than being forced to play through the Raid 10 times more than I'd have to. Right now the System is Need over Greed, and over the years, I can only count on one hand, the amount of times I quit, because we wiped too often. And usually on the next Queue, with a new Alliance, we get through it no problem.

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Originally Posted by Barachim

Deaths happen. Every new Raid is a learning experience. I'd rather deal with a number of wipes and people getting better, than being forced to play through the Raid 10 times more than I'd have to. Right now the System is Need over Greed, and over the years, I can only count on one hand, the amount of times I quit, because we wiped too often. And usually on the next Queue, with a new Alliance, we get through it no problem.

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Ozma on release was: wipe, wipe, wipe, disband. Repeat.
If I have to roll my loot against someone who need it but isn't playing that job at the moment, in exchange for a better chance at a clear, it'd gladly take that offer.

Edit: I literally just came out of a terrible Rabanastre. I was forced to go in as a healer, since it's the job I wanted gear for. I'm not that good at healing and probably could've prevented way more deaths than I did and healed/DPS more efficently. Tanks, on the other end, absolutly didn't do jack. They weren't even tanking the bosses. The bosses roamed free, killing everyone with tank busters and stuff... It took at least a minute or two before someone (not the tanks) decided to even pull.
If I could've joined as a tank, I definitly would have. That's my main and I wouldn't have let that happen. But I couldn't. Because of loot.

But it seems I'm in the minority of people who value smoother runs more than bragging rights for loot. Feelsbadman.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Ozma on release was: wipe, wipe, wipe, disband. Repeat.

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Funny you should mention that. Every fight in Ridorana Lighthouse was designed by the guy who made Ozma (I think they referred to him as "Mr. Ozma").

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Originally Posted by Fyce

But it seems I'm in the minority of people who value smoother runs more than bragging rights for loot. Feelsbadman.

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Right, because everyone running their alt jobs are inherently bad at them and everybody playing their main never messes up and creates flawless runs? You can try to cherry-pick situations where people were simply bad at their role and blame it on them simply not playing their main job, but it also boils down to laziness/lack of effort. Your argument practically assumes everyone has absolutely no clue how to play their alt jobs which begs the question as to what they're even doing in level 70 casual content as said job/role. If somebody can't play their alt well enough to acceptably function in 24-man alliances, then I can't think of any other content (where knowing a basic rotation and role responsibility) they could perform well enough to even utilize gear from relevant Alliance raids.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I literally just came out of a terrible Rabanastre. I was forced to go in as a healer, since it's the job I wanted gear for. I'm not that good at healing

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Okay, so enlighten me as to what you needed that gear for to force you to queue up as healer if you're not comfortable/good at healing? Certainly you intended to use a healer in some other content, even if by your admission, you're not that good at it? Clearly you want to be a healer somewhere if you wanted gear for it.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Tanks, on the other end, absolutly didn't do jack. They weren't even tanking the bosses. The bosses roamed free, killing everyone with tank busters and stuff... It took at least a minute or two before someone (not the tanks) decided to even pull.

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That's a bad player/trolling problem, not an "alt problem." Tanks not actually tanking bosses defeats the purpose of being an actual tank at max-level casual content. Those tanks sound like they'd be terrible/disruptive no matter what content they decided to queue up for. That's not really an argument to discourage people from playing as alts in alliance raids; that's an argument to force them to learn their job before queuing up anything at level 70. BTW, do you know without a reasonable doubt none of those tanks weren't actually playing their main? Lots of people running 60+ content with a... "tenuous" understanding of their main; as the gigantic "Tales from the Duty Finder" thread shows.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Yeah, it's totally fine if your two "alt-jobs healers" are derping around and let everyone die because they are terrible at playing that job in 24-raids simply because they want to call dibs on shiny. I mean, not only healers, but the other 23 other players with you.

24-raids are wipe fests, and they should remain like that. Up to 24 people playing sub-optimaly just because of loot. Without that, these raids would lose their flavor. Their salty flavor.

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i don't have any problems with that. first the wipes i see are most often mechanic wipes and people who can't dodge that eating dirt. and second this change is applied to ALL 24 man raids. you know, the raids wich are used mostly for leveling alt classes through roulette, played by people who have no experience with that class.
and that's another point, especially for healers: 24 man raids are a good training ground in the difficulty curve between faceroll dungeons and extreme primals / savage raids.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

But it seems I'm in the minority of people who value smoother runs more than bragging rights for loot. Feelsbadman.

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i'll rather have a few wipes with a chance for loot than dozens of smooth runs wich are just wasting my time. also that these random people are playing any better on their mainclass needs a proof.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

But it seems I'm in the minority of people who value smoother runs more than bragging rights for loot. Feelsbadman.

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If you aren't a good healer, why run it through content too difficult for you? If you can't heal through Rabanastre I doubt Rabanastre gear will make you any better a healer lol

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I just don't want to die and/or wipe because some players are forced to play a job they barely know how to play for a pair of boots.

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You realize Savage and Ultimates are wipe fests until everyone learns the mechanics and clear the fight, right? I mean, those are people who bring in their A game jobs and gear and still aren't necessarily going to clear with their static over the course of a week. Your problem sounds more like it's with the wipe-fests in 24-player raids rather than anything that might come from this change. Because wipe-fests, especially on the first couple of weeks, can and will happen without any single person performing inadequately. That's just how these raids go, in part because of the sheer amount of people in there. Coordination is hard enough within an 8-player party, but here we have 3 times it.
Then, in a couple of weeks, between people learning mechanics and overgearing through other means, it doesn't even matter how badly your hypothetical healer is, so why are you so upset over this?

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Edit: I literally just came out of a terrible Rabanastre. I was forced to go in as a healer, since it's the job I wanted gear for. I'm not that good at healing and probably could've prevented way more deaths than I did and healed/DPS more efficently. Tanks, on the other end, absolutly didn't do jack. They weren't even tanking the bosses. The bosses roamed free, killing everyone with tank busters and stuff... It took at least a minute or two before someone (not the tanks) decided to even pull.
If I could've joined as a tank, I definitly would have. That's my main and I wouldn't have let that happen. But I couldn't. Because of loot.

But it seems I'm in the minority of people who value smoother runs more than bragging rights for loot. Feelsbadman.

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Bragging rites - I do not think this term means what you think it means, just saying.

Despite my reservations in doing so I am going to take your Rabanastre story as an entirely factual recount of real events. If we do that let's break down why it does not offer much support for your stance on all greed loot.

First - you are the only person there confirmed to not be on your main in this entire instance. Most people running Rab right now who have a specific goal item in mind are stockpiling coins for 4.3 tome gear upgrade items, not the (relayively worthless) i330 gear it offers. I can say as an experienced healer in Rab that if that run was as bad as you claim there was likely not much I could have done in your shoes to fix things so you being less competent as a healer is neither here nor there.

Second - bad players are bad more or less across the board. I don't mean that there is no skill discrepancy between a main and alt job but I think that gap is being greatly exaggerated by people in support of this change. The inverse can be said of good players. I'm not assigning some arbitrary skill assessment either, I simply mean the difference between a player who reads their tooltips and perhaps a guide on their class versus those who jump in and do completely illogical things like Ice Mages, songless BRDs, SMNs using Titan Egi, melee who always stand in front of the boss... you get the picture.

Third - objectively speaking 24man raids are not difficult enough to require main jobs for clears or even smooth clears.

I get that this can be a touchy subject and I will preface that I enjoy 24man content a ton and have used it as both a training ground and a fun time waster many times.

That aside, difficulty in this context is quantified by how much prior knowledge the general playerbase needs in order to clear an instance. As someone who did Rabanastre immediately upon release (huge ffxii/fft nerd, was so excited) I can say we needed no prior knowledge and had none. We wiped once to Mateus and twice to Hashmal, cleared the rest with zero issue. I even joined a PF specifically for people who wanted to run it blind, no spoilers.

This ability for 24 random people to walk in and clear a raid with very little effort sets it apart from something like EX or Savage where the finer points of job mastery can start to factor in, especially at lower ilvl. It is, in overall difficulty, closer to a dungeon run than a Savage fight. A very fun dungeon run for sure! But it ultimately asks very little of it's participants.

As an aside I am personally hoping that the difficulty jump in Ridoranna is larger than I'm giving it credit for. There is, however slim, the chance that it will be so far removed from Rabanastre that this All Greed option will make sense because it makes use of more player skill. At the end of the day we only have our experiences to go by and mine with 24man content on release is limited to Rab. I think this loot change is stupid and pointless. I would love for SE to proove me wrong.

I’m totally ok with this. Let’s be honest raid gear is relevant for all of 5 minuets for your main class. Makes total sense to greed only as most people only use raid gear for subclasses

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Originally Posted by Indefiinable

I’m totally ok with this. Let’s be honest raid gear is relevant for all of 5 minuets for your main class. Makes total sense to greed only as most people only use raid gear for subclasses

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And the people who are coming back for the patch who need upgrades? Not everyone is actually geared up to snuff right now, especially during the mid patch lulls. We'll never see concrete evidence either way unless SE releases their own poll on the matter, but in my experience the vast majority of people I know are using the Alliance Raids for gear on their main classes. Either due to not having the time to grind for mendacity gear, the interest dribbled away so they fell behind the curve, or any number of other reasons - though the middle one tends to be the most prevalent in my experience. Gearing for an alt job is among the last things I hear people needing it for when I'm asked to queue for it to help a friend.

Yet even if you're gearing an alt job, why would you want the potential of losing out on gear you queue'd to get? The one week lock out isn't going to stop people from rolling for items they might not necessarily need as much, or at all.

Honestly I'll only be rolling for my two primary jobs, and only going in on healer for the first week.

Once I get a piece for one of my two main classes for the week, I'm refusing to run this content. If I have a ton of crappy dps schmucks rolling on gear they can't use, just because they have a healer they don't use that they want to gear up but couldn't take the time to actually do the work of healing a 24man raid for it - then I'm just refusing to roll a healer through this content. Not like it'll matter if everyone wants to go dps anyway, right? All Greed, right?

Oh right. Queue times.

All Greed is stupid and only rewards lazy dps who can't be bothered to learn how to heal or tank properly but want all the loot for them, regardless. And I'm honestly hoping enough tanks and healers say "screw this" and either don't do Ridorana past week 1, or all roll on their dps classes since not like it makes a difference anyway. Maybe if the queue times for Ridorana start plummeting after initial release, SE will realize no one likes this change and put it back the way it was.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

Maybe if the queue times for Ridorana start skyrocketing after initial release, SE will realize no one likes this change and put it back the way it was.

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Plummeting would mean tanks and healers are actually queuing.

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Originally Posted by 347SPECTRE

Plummeting would mean tanks and healers are actually queuing.

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I use plummeting to mean "queue times are getting so bad that it's almost impossible to get into the run at all", but hey - we all need unnecessary English lessons in the morning.

Though yeah - my point still stands. I feel the only way SE will realize what a huge mistake this change is (since apparently this thread hasn't made it clear already), is if dps start crying about horrible queue times for Ridorana not even a month after its release. Thus, I'd highly suggest to any career tanks and healers to just flat out stop rolling a tank or healer through that content after week 1. We all have the same chance to get gear regardless - so obviously we can safely roll the low-pressure classes without anything bad happening. /s

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Me needing on that glorious tank chest that you want for glamour purposes, with zero competition, which I don't even need or want and just intend to desynth/GC it.

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If someone can use the tank gear for glamour then that player can also do the content as a tank. The "fix" will nerf the roll chance.

Get the desired gear pieces while the weekly lockout is still active and nobody click mindless on greed. It will be a nightmare after it to get a chance on a specific gear.

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

I'd also like to point out that if this is an issue of culture differences, it should be specific to the data center. I hadn't seen that particular line of reasoning before.

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And someone pointed out in this thread that there are even posts in the japanese forum, where people asked why they changed that..I really dont understand it..if you want to gear up you second jobs you kinda plan to play it somewhere right? (Otherwise you wont need gear?) So shouldnt one be fine with playing it in 24 too? And if some Japanese players only go into these things with their main job..how big is the chance that they will play anything else with a job beside their main job? (Especially raids)

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Originally Posted by Indefiinable

I’m totally ok with this. Let’s be honest raid gear is relevant for all of 5 minuets for your main class. Makes total sense to greed only as most people only use raid gear for subclasses

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What if someone needs it to catch up? (Its even called catch up gear). What if that person is on their main job (for example tank or healer) and is now losing their 100% or 50% roll to a DD that just wants it for glamour and that does not need it to gear up because they raid?

What if you soley run this raids for glamour? I have someone that farms gear sets from these raids..he was not amused by this change. It already took a huge amount of runs to get certain items because they dont always drop and this always got even harder when the limit dropped. Now you might never ever get the drop, because you cant simply need on it anymore.

Also if its not as relevant as you say, why change the system at all? People could have still gotten the roll even on another job if someone did not need it. But now you are punishing everyone.

I'm more annoyed that Vaan's gear is class-restriced.

Although I guess this change will let me lot on it even if I can't equip it. And the healer gear is ugly as hell so I don't have to waste my lots on that.

It's like they want me to be a jerk.

what I see coming from this is suddenly, despite all the People running on DPS, The healers and Tanks are going "no.", runs taking nearly the entire allotted time because the people that know their healer/tank classes are refusing to do anything but run in Preformed groups and People that don't do Premade loot and scooting on DPS because they got the Tank/Healer item they wanted (or wanted and didn't get because Loot and Scoot).

When Rab first came out, I had Plenty of parties where a DPS asked "I know I'm not Healer/Tank, but if you don't need *Gear Piece* would it be alright if everyone passed for me?". this isn't a bad form, but at the same time, who bloody wants to ask when they go in "I'd like the XXXPieceXXX if possible"...especially when it's the class you're going in on?

I go on the class I want an item for. if i don't? Greed. am I running VA/DS/WC/old 50 raids? I greed on everything, even class specific. I don't necessarily need it, it'd be nice for seals maybe, but I don't NEED it, back in HW, was different, when it was the only secondary source of Glass Fibers. if I was running on WHM and I saw the healer belt drop? I'd Need it. I wasn't being mean, I needed the possible desynth for my crafters/Gatherers. once I got what I needed, I went back to Greed Only.

Well, I won't need to queue as healer or tank now. DPS life for the new raid.

Maybe current tier 24 man should be need/greed and all past raids can be greed...

It really is a bad change. One clearly not thought through.

Yeah I'm probably just gonna be rolling on the first piece that drops since I'm not even guaranteed a piece I could use. It was bad enough that they put this in the new raid... but then to put it in all the old raids. What I stupid idea.

You know what I'm looking forward to? Being the tank or only ninja in the party and asking if I can have a piece of gear that I need as an upgrade to what I'm currently wearing and some jerk rolling on it just to troll so I can't have it. This is why SE's brilliant idea is asinine and they really need to reverse this change.

actually... i think we will just make PF groups with our own loot rules, instead of going with the duty finder.

we can set up the rules for alliances i hope? o.ô;

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Originally Posted by Tint

actually... i think we will just make PF groups with our own loot rules, instead of going with the duty finder.

we can set up the rules for alliances i hope? o.ô;

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Sometimes there's an all heal, all tank, or all rdm alliance raids in pf just for the shenanigans on Primal so I wouldn't be surprised if those and regular raid builds show up more often to make loot roll less chaotic/troll/rude because of this mess. I can't wait for all heal lighthouse now that I'm thinking about it. The Rabanastre one I was in was so much fun, though tank busters one shot 99% of the time. Still cleared though :x

Lol my poor ALT she is almost 70 how am I going to gear her for savage now I had planned on catching her up with the 24 man stuff and a little of normal raid gear :/