DRG has been broken for far too long. Fix it SE

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

How I'd personally fix dragoon:

- Increase the Magic Defence on all LNC/DRG gear to be the same as casters/healers or at least equal to other melee.
- Get rid of Power Surge (it's an annoying ability anyway), buff jumps to compensate, and replace it with an ability that decreases magic damage taken for nearby party members. "Dragonsward" or something.
- Change the penalty for performing Heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive on the "incorrect side" to a potency decrease.
- Add an additional effect to Dragonfire Dive which increases the duration of all DoTs casted by the party by 15 seconds.
- Slight increase in potency to Vorpal Thrust and Disembowel.

Also jumps are busted in final coil. DRGs will often take damage from "floor AoEs" such as Barofield on T11 or T10s electric field if they're unlucky with the server tick timing.

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Removing Power Surge and the HT / ID requirement?

... do you even DRG??

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

Removing Power Surge and the HT / ID requirement?

... do you even DRG??

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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...cAc/edit#gid=0

Positional requirements feels more like an annoyance than a fun mechanic. Most likely a legacy of 1.0. Jumps should be the central mechanic of DRG. Lower cooldowns on those with additional effects/buffs/debuffs would be nice. A bit of a potency boost would be welcomed.

I have a feeling that DRG gear choices were broken as well. Stuck with s.speed at the cost of DET. Could get some nice crit rate, but horible det. 2.4 seems to alleviate that a bit.

How about implementing an actual mechanic to jump like pressing the space bar in order to hit maximum potency? Like Squall's limit break in ff8 where you had to hit certain timings. Maybe dragoons can actually jump at the end of comboes to increase potency?

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Originally Posted by misterfriendly

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...cAc/edit#gid=0

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Is this a joke post? I honestly can't tell.

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Originally Posted by Maxwell

Positional requirements feels more like an annoyance than a fun mechanic.

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That's like saying casting time for casters is more of an annoyance than a fun mechanic. DRG's issue is not the ability to improperly land HT / ID lol a DRG worth his / her salt would have this innate feeling of boss positioning - I've been playing DRG long enough to able to keep an eye on the tank and the mob to predict their movements when they are moving. The issue of DRG's low DPS is just because we don't have innate buffs like MNKs and NINs do and our weaponskills' potency numbers just suck. Like I said in my posts some few pages ago, DRGs do not fill any of the pyramid spectrum while MNKs and NINs are technically "perfect" because they fill all 3 sides of the pyramid.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Is this a joke post? I honestly can't tell.

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It's a joke post. Noticeable by the tryhardiness of trying to make things "good".

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

Dragons aren't bad? Okay:
- They're the first to attack the Ishgardians ages ago, thus they were the one who started the conflict. Even the Dragoon order wasn't established until a squire of a fallen knight took his fallen master's spear and thrusted it to Nidhogg's eye, forcing the dragons to retreat. The eye eventually became the power source for the Dragoons and that squire became the very first Dragoon ever in history.
- Do you even play this game bruh? Twintania, Stone Vigil, the dragons in Coerthas, Svara, Bahamut - all dragons are bent on destruction. When at the point of the game where we met a "friendly" dragon? From most of the Ishgard quests explained to us, many of the NPCs bear grudge to dragons because their relentless and merciless attacks made them lost their family / loved ones. Even IF there were some "good" dragons, that to Ishgardians is like bringing Nazis to a Jewish Bar Mitzvah and say to the Jews "It's okay guys even tho these people are Nazis, they're good Nazis! I've known them for quite a while yeah they're chill don't worry!"
- All the ones supporting the sides of the dragons, the Heretics, based on their text bubbles and actions, are crazy / acting as if they were being tempered. That includes Nael Deus Darnus and Louisouix.
- In the Heavensward trailer, Ishgard got rekt by dragons thus forcing our hero to abandon the WAR class to suit-up Batman style into the almighty AF2 DRG with all the DRG homies already waiting there ready to thrust a Gae Bolg right up into the dragons' ass.

Yeah so dragons being "Evil" is not because the church of Ishgard's "propaganda" - dragons in this game are violent / evil. The cliche here is too obvious in the direction it's going it's laughable.

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Right.. and the same arguments could be made about the beasttribes being all bad.... that iiiis, until you start doing the beastmen quests. So all of that is pretty much moot. We're only getting a one sided story, mainly from a bunch of religious zealots. Add to that... play more through Coil and you'll understand why Bahamut is bent on destruction. If you've played enough of these games, its never as 'black and white' as 'good and evil' when a war is involved.

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Originally Posted by misterfriendly

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...cAc/edit#gid=0

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Ignoring everything else, Feint is still trash in this because it is on the GCD.

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Originally Posted by Fayto

Ignoring everything else, Feint is still trash in this because it is on the GCD.

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Actually if Feint does became an off-GCD skill and it actually works to content starting from Primal EX to Coil that would be a really good skill to have - more time to dodge Twisters! Or Weight of the Land! Or Shiva's Icicles!

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Originally Posted by misterfriendly

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...cAc/edit#gid=0

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The best they'll do is increase damage on Dragoon skills. Adding entirely new skills is probably *not* going to happen.

Not every skill will become great, if you looked at changes for Black Mage.

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Originally Posted by Ronzeru

Right.. and the same arguments could be made about the beasttribes being all bad.... that iiiis, until you start doing the beastmen quests. So all of that is pretty much moot. We're only getting a one sided story, mainly from a bunch of religious zealots. Add to that... play more through Coil and you'll understand why Bahamut is bent on destruction. If you've played enough of these games, its never as 'black and white' as 'good and evil' when a war is involved.

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Still... even if our side of the story is not entirely true, the fact exists that dragons are there to destroy stuff. Bahamut is bent on destruction because he is naturally destructive, although part of it is because of the Allags treatment to him and his worshippers, the Meracydians. Even when he was "killed" by Louisouix, he's still intent on destroying humankind and masterminding the entire Coil storyline despite him being in a dormant, regenerative state. If Bahamut is in anyway "good" or "benevolent" or "tolerant" / "understanding", he will say "Huh okay these guys are not Allags... which means they had nothing to do with what happened to me and my subjects". But the fact is not like that, isn't it? He went John Madden to Eorzea the moment he breaks out of Dalamud.

For the beastman tribes being bad and there's the "good" faction - the "good" faction of the tribes are little. It's just like my comparison about bringing good Nazis to a Jewish meeting or something like that. Even though they're not in the same view of being a supremacist, the main goal of the Nazi movement is to eradicate "lesser" ethnics since they view them as bringing a halt to progress. Same as the beast tribes - the main movement of the tribe is to gain dominance of whatever they're seeking for, including the summon of their respective Primal. Just by having some few beast tribes "disagree" with their brethren, it doesn't justify the beast tribes as being an actually good faction.

Maybe they can give goad to DRG? Its pretty ridiculous that NIN can get cross class abilities from other jobs but not vis versa.

If not they're not gonna give more supportive skills prior to expansion they could at the very least up their atk potency

I still like the idea that the would gain a boost to their attacks after surviving magic based attacks, which would also give their low Magic Defense stats purpose as they would eat more damage for more power, which would also give them higher DPS as battles progress. It would be a latent skill that's always on or something added into blood for blood.

I really wish I knew who here came up with the idea, but it was from the thread showing concern for Dragoons having dangerously low Magic Defense that's crippling them in things like FCOB.

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Originally Posted by Fayto

Ignoring everything else, Feint is still trash in this because it is on the GCD.

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Sorry I forgot that it wasn't an OGCD. I feel it should be for more burst..

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

Thanks for the all feedback.

The development team is currently working on making adjustments to enhance dragoon and they are taking all of your feedback into consideration. Once the implementation timing and other such details have been decided I will make a follow-up.

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Yay ! DRG buff ! Finally :D

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Originally Posted by misterfriendly

Sorry I forgot that it wasn't an OGCD. I feel it should be for more burst..

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Yeah that is pretty much the only reason Feint sucks, because it isn't OGCD. It cannot be used as long as it is on the GCD.

Edit: On the subject, same with Haymaker.

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Originally Posted by Fayto

Yeah that is pretty much the only reason Feint sucks, because it isn't OGCD. It cannot be used as long as it is on the GCD.

Edit: On the subject, same with Haymaker.

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Haymaker is a bit easier to use simply because you have time to use it and then something else thanks to the GL stacks. Still sucks that you have to use it on GCD, but we really shouldn't be getting hit, so I understand why it's there.

Well, Haymaker is easier to use for Monk because it doesn't completely BREAK their damage dealing. Feint utterly wrecks Dragoon DPS not just because it's on the GCD but also because it breaks combos. The impact of breaking combos for any Class is so incredibly severe it's...hilarious. However I do like the rigidity, however basic, of the Dragoon rotation.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Haymaker is a bit easier to use simply because you have time to use it and then something else thanks to the GL stacks. Still sucks that you have to use it on GCD, but we really shouldn't be getting hit, so I understand why it's there.

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Of course, it would just be more appealing if it was OGCD than if it was GCD. Also the needing to dodge makes it more unusable than it being on GCD, as you stated.

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Originally Posted by misterfriendly

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...cAc/edit#gid=0

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said it in the other thread you posted this in, saying it again. do you even know how to balance? 20% increase to all stats for 10 seconds(or any amount of time) for the whole group is broken as all hell. ignoring everything else because those changes are just stupid.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

said it in the other thread you posted this in, saying it again. do you even know how to balance? 20% increase to all stats for 10 seconds(or any amount of time) for the whole group is broken as all hell. ignoring everything else because those changes are just stupid.

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I think you're high because that much of a boost for 10s every 4m really isn't OP. You sound mad, brah.

Sheesh you don't have to gut the job. If drg doesn't do enough damage, slightly buff potency across the board and call it a day. It's not rocket science.

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

Removing Power Surge and the HT / ID requirement?

... do you even DRG??

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Power Surge is an awful skill. Just like all "press this button on CD or have sub-par dps" skills. It's uncreative and boring game design.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

Power Surge is an awful skill. Just like all "press this button on CD or have sub-par dps" skills. It's uncreative and boring game design.

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I agree, buff the jumps and take away power surge, replace it with an actual off gcd attack,

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Originally Posted by misterfriendly

I think you're high because that much of a boost for 10s every 4m really isn't OP. You sound mad, brah.

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please show me a skill that boosts damage, healing, health, and general survivability all in one that is balanced. note, you said all stats.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

Power Surge is an awful skill. Just like all "press this button on CD or have sub-par dps" skills. It's uncreative and boring game design.

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No it is pretty standard in RPGs to have skills that only buff you. Hell some people want the Support role in this game that only does that.

Honestly the changes to dragoon should be very simple, they either need to bring some kind of raid utility or they need to have a huge potency increase to all of their abilitys. I'd be okay with either of these or if they did a little bit of both. Its easy to be creative in this with skills or replace existing skills with something more in-tune to how things are progressing.

The magic defence also needs to come up quite a bit. Its not fair to my raid group that because of my lack luster m.def that they should suffer. while I can't say what is or isn't a good number but I can however give a few final coil stories about my dragoon and how I've been 1 shot by mechanics from full HP at i113, that I have no way of mitigating myself, and must rely on stoneksin or adlo, and even more in some cases. In T10 there is a mechanic called prey, it deals full magic dmg. It does a small hit, for about 500-700 and is followed by a larger hit which applys an un-dispelable paralyze. If you do not mitigate the first hit, there is a very good chance I will die from the full brunt of the attack, which is easily 6k or more dmg. I have survived this with very little hp, it varies on how forgiving the game is. And on a side note if anybody dies in T10 during the final phase the boss does a raid wide aoe, applying lighting resitance down on everybody, so if somebody else dies, I will most likely die to every other mechanic the boss does as well.

In T11, after phase 2 is done, the boss does a move called Nerve cloud, its is a guaranteed 100% crit. This move need to mitigated much like Mega flare from T9, Stoneskins and succor and sacred soil. Even that is not enough for me. I need my own personal adlo, and even THAT with stoneskin is not enough. I also need Apocostasis from our blackmage and Virus/dragon kick on the boss to lower the attacks dmg. With all of that combined just to keep 1 person alive, you have to ask if its even worth it to play dragoon at all.

These are just a few of my stories and hopefully we see a change sooner than later, I don't want to see this wait till Heavensward, the damage will be done already by that time. somebody should tell the main character in their CG's to not change to dragoon and stay a warrior.

heavy thrust gives 50% dmg boost, the most easiest buff if SE goin lazymode!

This needs to be addressed sooner rather than later, this class can't afford to wait 3 months for fixes. There will likely not be a re-design of the class in any meaningful way, it'd be nice but after watching what happened to Black Mages there will probably be just potency buffs. Simply adjusting numbers shouldn't take 3 months. These things get hotfixed incredibly quickly in other big budget titles.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

This needs to be addressed sooner rather than later, this class can't afford to wait 3 months for fixes. There will likely not be a re-design of the class in any meaningful way, it'd be nice but after watching what happened to Black Mages there will probably be just potency buffs. Simply adjusting numbers shouldn't take 3 months. These things get hotfixed incredibly quickly in other big budget titles.

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Who says the fixes won't be included in 2.45?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Who says the fixes won't be included in 2.45?

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Do you happen to know that date? Expansion will be by April-May '15, split the difference from now and that's mid February. Dragoon can't wait until mid-February for fixes, other games hotfix classes on a weekly basis. We can't wait for months.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

Do you happen to know that date? Expansion will be by April-May '15, split the difference from now and that's mid February. Dragoon can't wait until mid-February for fixes, other games hotfix classes on a weekly basis. We can't wait for months.

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Posts like this make it sound like dragoon is less than useless, not fun, and a dead class. I think a lot of people are overreacting just a little. I play dragoon and still wreck content and progress through coil just fine. Dragoon is not THAT broken guys

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Originally Posted by Itseotle

Posts like this make it sound like dragoon is less than useless, not fun, and a dead class. I think a lot of people are overreacting just a little. I play dragoon and still wreck content and progress through coil just fine. Dragoon is not THAT broken guys

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Not fun? The amount of damage this class takes on Turn 13 isn't fun. The amount of healing required to keep it alive in Bennu phase on Turn 12 isn't fun. It isn't fun to do 10-15% less DPS than a Monk or Ninja assuming perfect conditions in regards to fight mechanics. The way the class plays mechanically feels really good, otherwise I wouldn't bother with it. The performance on the other hand is another story all together. Ask my healers just how fun it is to have to have to spend all that extra mp prepping me for Megaflares on Turn 13 when other classes can survive it without extra babysitting.

Give us a wyvern and we good :>

Sorry for this, I know some guys will be very angry, but "Where is my wyvern ?" Do you not think a pet that do only Physique damage like a support pet, will not be good ? If this wyverne have the same resistance like other pet it can be a good solution no ? I don't speak about a big pet who does massive damage, but just the damage DRG need to be the same other DD. For the position of the pet, it follow the DRG all the time like a shadow and don't need to be located. Seriously this is really impossible to do ? It can fly or just stay on your shoulder and bite some time your enemy.
http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acci...4bbd8efddc.jpg

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Originally Posted by Saiyakupo

Give us a wyvern and we good :>

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hahaha same idea.

I'd really like to see something done with a Keen Flurry and Power Surge revamp, preferably in such a manner as to make Dragoon the king of (not necessarily opening) burst.

I really don't think Dragoon ought to have quite the dps of Monk, and probably not much if any more than Ninja (especially a War-assisted one), but it should be within 5%, for sure. The main thing to me is increasing the skill gap proportionally to the increase in dps ceiling, and in a way that feels versatile and tactical rather than tedious. I like that Dragoon feels highly punctuated (read: rotational), but I can't help but feel like there ought to be something more to it than just hitting the CDs as they pop while running the same rotation repeatedly. I'd also like to see that "skill gap" steered away from things that are better described as simply bearing with annoyances than true skill, i.e. absolute positional needs (as opposed to 'large bonuses') and taking increased magic damage even without misusing B4B.

Ideally, I'd like to see KF used as a burst tool, similar to its 1.0 use (in this case duplicating an ability [for DRG, most sensibly Full/Chaos] without combo/positional/stance requirements) on a 30-second CD or so, and Power Surge turned into a way of steadily cranking up the DRG's numbers with each instance of incredible burst damage [for instance, gaining AP based on the damage of the last attack], or at minimum a way to increase the frequency, power, and/or synergy of Jump/Dive/Leap abilities.

(Basically, I'd like to see DRG more easily able to multi-dot during Trash pulls, burst down adds, and eventually (if all goes well over a long fight) hit with either Full Thrust or Jump for significantly more than a Flare.)

In a similarly opportunistic vein, I'd like to see Jumps ignore most forms of AoE damage not aimed at or centered on the Dragoon while in the air, allow for a change in landing position (as if moving about the point of origin) during Jump, Dives, and Leap. I realize that this will increase the casualties of over-confident Dragoons, but it should aid those who really do deserve the job.

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Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons

Not fun? The amount of damage this class takes on Turn 13 isn't fun. The amount of healing required to keep it alive in Bennu phase on Turn 12 isn't fun. *snip* Ask my healers just how fun it is to have to have to spend all that extra mp prepping me for Megaflares on Turn 13 when other classes can survive it without extra babysitting.

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Your feedbacks would be very welcome in my thread sir :
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...efense-and-2.4)

Been trying this last few days to gather on the desk solid feedbacks about dragoon's low magic defense and how you have to handle it in fcob but my thread is trashed by haters :/. More feedbacks about your own experiences as a dragoon would be very appreciated.

Just a note to people who are making suggestions for Feint and Keen Flurry: Both of these abilities are usable for every Physical damage Job. Any changes to these abilities would have to occur Trait-side as changing the ability directly would benefit every class that could use it. To date, Square Enix has not modified any Class Traits that I'm aware of, only the abilities themselves. Warrior changes were the direct result of changes to abilities only. Black Mage changes were the direct result of changes to abilities only.

All class changes have only been the modification of abilities only, not traits as far as I'm aware. Ergo, suggesting changes to abilities that can be slotted by other classes aren't viable from a development point of view. Suggestions should be limited to Lancer/Dragoon only abilities as that is the most viable feedback to give the developers. They won't add brand new abilities either. This leaves us with straight potency buffs, or tacking on utility to already existing abilities.

My personal suggestion:
The most reasonable request to buff our damage would be to add potency to Phlebotomize, Chaos Thrust, and Vorpal Thrust.

Vorpal Thrust 200 > 220
Phlebotomize 170/25 > 170/35
Chaos Thrust 200/30 > 220 /40

This seems like a reasonable request, makes Vorpal Thrust worth using at low level (currently Impulse Drive spam as a low level Lancer is the highest damage outside of Life Surge cooldown before you get Full Thrust) and ups our sustained damage without adding too much to our burst.

Not only that, but Feint and Keen Flurry are honestly worthless skills for Dragoons. I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually used them in combat because they're GCD skills that require a combo/rotation interrupt and what you get out of them just isn't worth it. MAYBE Keen Flurry in a situation where I have to do some temporary OTing, but other than that, I never use them now that I'm on endgame content.