So resetting's against the rules now?

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

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I've been giving this a lot of thought since I started reading this thread, and I'm actually inclined to pull early because if I don't, I run the risk of not getting full credit myself. Happened last night, we get to an A that maybe had 20 or so people around it. Then, almost all at once, 100-200 people come down and someone pulls it. All of a sudden, we're a second late attacking it, and the damn thing's 25% down already. Even going full on, we got 12 out of 20. I'd rather be called selfish and pull early than miss out on full credit even though I was there before everyone else. As for wanting someone else to do the same for me, I don't expect them to do it because I understand if they're scared about not getting their own credit. And well... selfish has a such a loose definition here, because who's more selfish? The person who was there first, or the person who wants to piggyback on someone else's find?

Should be no problem getting full credit in a full party. If you aren't, all you have to do is shout "invite" and you will get an invite almost instantly.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Should be no problem getting full credit in a full party. If you aren't, all you have to do is shout "invite" and you will get an invite almost instantly.

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Yeah, let's go back to repeat the same arguments over and over and over until people get tired and they become true.

To put it simple: there's a point where the elite will die so fast that it's nearly impossible to get full credit, specially if the zone is so crowded that half your party members can't see the elite.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Should be no problem getting full credit in a full party. If you aren't, all you have to do is shout "invite" and you will get an invite almost instantly.

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Come to Excalibur on primetime and say that. God bless the more polite members of our megahunt community, but splitting an A-rank between something like 150 people and making sure all of them get credit requires borderline exploits of how the crediting system works. And it still doesn't always work for everyone.

I hope you like the Medica animation.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Should be no problem getting full credit in a full party. If you aren't, all you have to do is shout "invite" and you will get an invite almost instantly.

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Again, false. People keep spouting this off, but there's a limit on how many can get full credit, be it a group or solo. With only a small group you won't hit that limit, but once that zerg hits, there WILL be groups/players who don't get full. This is always ignored.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Should be no problem getting full credit in a full party. If you aren't, all you have to do is shout "invite" and you will get an invite almost instantly.

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This might work on less populated servers, but doesn't really apply to Legacy servers. The population is just too high for that. Since the mobs have a finite number of hitpoints there are a finite number of people that are able to get full credit for them. This is even taking into account things like having a bunch of tanks (low damage, high enmity) and white mages (medica spam ftw).

With the weekend coming up, I won't be responding further to any questions. I hope I was able to provide some insight and clarity; I also know there's a bit of frustrating opaqueness that is a part of my responses as well.

I will be having GMs monitor the thread if it remains active. I'm sure there are discussions left to be had, so please remember to keep it civil and sometimes just accept that the best course of action is to agree to disagree. This will prevent the GMs from having to lock or remove the thread, the latter of which would remove any responses I could give for anyone else looking through the forums or as a point of reference.

LGM Enkrateia

everyone should Hunt as a tank. Full party credits for Flash spamming :)

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

With the weekend coming up, I won't be responding further to any questions. I hope I was able to provide some insight and clarity; I also know there's a bit of frustrating opaqueness that is a part of my responses as well.

I will be having GMs monitor the thread if it remains active. I'm sure there are discussions left to be had, so please remember to keep it civil and sometimes just accept that the best course of action is to agree to disagree. This will prevent the GMs from having to lock or remove the thread, the latter of which would remove any responses I could give for anyone else looking through the forums or as a point of reference.

LGM Enkrateia

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This thread is now a reference point on various other sites for the official SE response. So it would be detrimental if the thread were removed. Worst case, just remove the offending posts and lock it, at least then we still have the official response on record.

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

In general, any monster in the world that is able to be attacked can be attacked at any time. There is no user agreement section that details the proper time to wait before attacking a hunt mark, at this time. That being said, actions determined to be taken with the intent of disrupting the game play of others can be reported as a grief tactic. This disruption applies to the people actually at the hunt mark, and convoluting the "disruption" to apply because not enough people were present for you to get full credit misses the actual impact of the disruption. And because nothing is black and white, this does not mean that pulling the hunt mark will not result in a grief tactics violation. The circumstances that would cause it are rarer, but not impossible. A GM would make that determination after investigating a report on potential grief tactics.

As in several of my posts, as a player, I appreciate the players who can get people to wait a bit to give more people a chance to participate. However, unless the hunt mark is pulled in a manner that a GM finds to be intentionally disruptive, waiting is a social behavior, not an edict within the rules.

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Do you mind clarifying this a bit, because we have people in our group reading it a few different ways.

1) That pulling 'early' before everyone can get there is considered 'grieving'. (which could mean every person who gets into the zone and says 'don't pull' even if you've already waited a reasonable time limit and there are more than enough people there to kill it)

2) But then it was pointed out that you said there is no 'proper time to wait', so it was also though that you actually meant: Pulling the mob before enough people were there to kill it. IE: 1 person pulls a mob that needs 20 people to kill it just to mess with people. (of course this does not include poor gatherers who just happen to be gathering and they accidentally pop it, since that it a catalyst for popping some of the hunts. Had this happen to me with Stinging Sophie XD)

3) That you meant that pulling the mob with the intent to grieve, period (IE: resetting the mob to grieve people be it intentional or unintentional) can get you reported, but not pulling with the intent to kill the mob because enough people are there but not everyone who wanted to be there.

I get the fact that if you reset is can be considered grieving, but can you clarify this.

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Originally Posted by KaiKatzchen

Do you mind clarifying this a bit, because we have people in our group reading it a few different ways.

1) That pulling 'early' before everyone can get there is considered 'grieving'. (which could mean every person who gets into the zone and says 'don't pull' even if you've already waited a reasonable time limit and there are more than enough people there to kill it)

2) But then it was pointed out that you said there is no 'proper time to wait', so it was also though that you actually meant: Pulling the mob before enough people were there to kill it. IE: 1 person pulls a mob that needs 20 people to kill it just to mess with people. (of course this does not include poor gatherers who just happen to be gathering and they accidentally pop it, since that it a catalyst for popping some of the hunts. Had this happen to me with Stinging Sophie XD)

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Pulling a hunt at anytime is never griefing even if there's people waiting. There are no rules on who pulls and when.

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Originally Posted by KaiKatzchen

3) That you meant that pulling the mob with the intent to grieve, period (IE: resetting the mob to grieve people be it intentional or unintentional) can get you reported, but not pulling with the intent to kill the mob because enough people are there but not everyone who wanted to be there.

I get the fact that if you reset is can be considered grieving, but can you clarify this.

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There's a lot of 'lawyer talk' in the mod post but I think it pretty much says if you intentionally reset it then it's griefing. If you accidently reset it then it's not. A GM will investigate and decide if it was intentional or not and take appropriate action.

Just don't do it or talk about doing it and you'll be fine.

Don't reset period. Either start killing it or don't touch it. Don't reset or try to if you roll upon someone killing a mark (usually b ranks). Simple as that. If people are not there its nice to try and wait, but there's usually some person with a itchy trigger finger. Doesn't matter if you found it someone will take it away.

I have reported 2 people for resetting and the last GM I spoke with said people can be suspended for such actions. I'll continue to report any who reset hunts that I have found and am currently fighting. These Linkshells that feel they can take any hunt they want and bully smaller hunting groups for their own gain are certainly in for a wakeup call. :D

Deceptions Wrath that mentality would never work on hyperion. I'm so glad that I'm part of a server where the majority of people atleast are not in that competative manor but trying to help as many as possible instead of thinking about just their own group. As long as your hate build on the mob with your group is high enough it doesnt matter really. Its sad that you would ruin other peoples gameplay if you would still get full credit. I'm not pointing fingers maybe the mentality is like that on Leviathan all I can say its too bad its like that where you are. I can't speak for all servers but im glad that over 20 groups have a mutual agreement when farming these hunts since we are all connected to eachothers linkshells one way or another.

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

Its sad that you would ruin other peoples gameplay if you would still get full credit.

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This has been rehashed several times already. A smaller party often cannot get full credit if the mob is reset and then zerged down within seconds (which often happens when you're talking about the lower rank marks). Finding a hunt mark and engaging it is normal and doesn't ruin anyone else's gameplay. Resetting a mob that someone else has found and chosen to engage absolutely does. You are basically stealing from them and citing the "greater good".

I honestly see B ranks reset more than any others, which is just plain silly.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Pulling a hunt at anytime is never griefing even if there's people waiting. There are no rules on who pulls and when.

There's a lot of 'lawyer talk' in the mod post but I think it pretty much says if you intentionally reset it then it's griefing. If you accidently reset it then it's not. A GM will investigate and decide if it was intentional or not and take appropriate action.

Just don't do it or talk about doing it and you'll be fine.

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I agree, much 'lawyer talk', which I think was why it was causing confusion. But if your explanation is correct then that is much clearer and I thank you for the help. :)

Resetting intentionally is against TOS if others are involved in trying to kill the mob based on grieving or harassment, even if your letting more people come. Time is of value to people and people sometimes don't and shouldn't wait on a stranger "coming" to get the kill. Resetting and causing people to not get credit is hugely against the ToS, and should be punished because it's all of the above and prob more.

But this isn't real life. This is a game with rules set by Square-Enix.

Balmung has a lot of hell chat for hunts. Can't speak for other servers. I spent a week mining wind shards in the Shroud. Sophie and Melt usally means 50 people at slow times to come with prime time to many to count. Alot of times of ten minutes don't pull don't pull more people coming more coming.

The entitlement of some LS is insane. I have seen quite a few posts of the rules for the server they are on. When did we all agree to these rules. Then the hate and bad mouthing in chat afterwards. It is Odin only with real rewards. I see alot of people just kill mobs and say nothing. If anyone asks for help on the down low I go as a tank. People need to start grabbing these mobs as tank. If you have down 5% there are very few tanks that are going to get it off you as long as you keep rotation up.

These rewards need to be spread out to disperse the crowd. Sadly its just Dark Devices on a server wide basis.

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Originally Posted by Stormrider

People need to start grabbing these mobs as tank. If you have down 5% there are very few tanks that are going to get it off you as long as you keep rotation up.

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This. As I'm an i110 Tank, as soon as the mob is pulled, I just bust CD's right off the hop as if it was a Trial / raid boss and cement myself as MT. I then know nobody will reset it on me. I'm Pro waiting, but I don't like it when a mob is reset AFTER waiting for it.

5 minutes waiting is ok, but on our server i noticed that the location is kept secret because only in FC or LS they tell the locations and when its public shouted its already dead...

01:06 <pos>
01:06 someone pulled
01:07 dead

10 Minutes? Never seen it - maybe you should shout public...
Do you like that more? Its same extreme as waiting 10 minutes with the dont pull, dont pull...

Hey guys, the Talathion here.

There is nothing wrong with this tactic, it is actually a great tactic and has been used in contested games for ages. If you don't like it you can roll a tank and use your abilities to pull the mob back. However you shouldn't get "banned" or "suspended" for using your abilities, or you may as well ban every tank on the server for doing their job.

It might be kind, but its a bit of a dick move for the people already there. You should stop doing it.

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Originally Posted by Gazille

It might be kind, but its a bit of a dick move for the people already there. You should stop doing it.

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It doesn't really matter if it is or isn't. You have the ability to learn to tank and do it yourself and make sure it doesn't reset. If you didn't have that ability I would say the same, but you do.

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Originally Posted by Talathion

Hey guys, the Talathion here.

There is nothing wrong with this tactic, it is actually a great tactic and has been used in contested games for ages. If you don't like it you can roll a tank and use your abilities to pull the mob back. However you shouldn't get "banned" or "suspended" for using your abilities, or you may as well ban every tank on the server for doing their job.

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I didn't know tanking abilities were given to tank just so they can grief others.

The more you know.

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Originally Posted by SkizzleofRagnarok

Deceptions Wrath that mentality would never work on hyperion. I'm so glad that I'm part of a server where the majority of people atleast are not in that competative manor but trying to help as many as possible instead of thinking about just their own group. As long as your hate build on the mob with your group is high enough it doesnt matter really. Its sad that you would ruin other peoples gameplay if you would still get full credit. I'm not pointing fingers maybe the mentality is like that on Leviathan all I can say its too bad its like that where you are. I can't speak for all servers but im glad that over 20 groups have a mutual agreement when farming these hunts since we are all connected to eachothers linkshells one way or another.

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You are so delusional it's just cute. There was another thread not so long ago, one of your sheeps defending the current system of Hyperion while the minority was complaining about how they are mistreated, do you just turn a blind eye to those people?

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There was another thread not so long ago, one of your sheeps defending the current system of Hyperion while the minority was complaining about how they are mistreated, do you just turn a blind eye to those people?

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Nobody ignores them... they can join a party just as easily as anyone else, but they choose not to. Trust me, the hunt groups would rather work cooperatively with everyone, rather than have a handful of people who are insistent on doing things their own way, social norms/etiquette be damned.

It's not against the rules to be a snowflake, but there are times they cause lots of grief to the majority of hunters.

Also, I've seen this falsely stated numerous times recently, but if you're in a full (or even mostly full) party you will ALMOST ALWAYS get full credit on A ranks... and although I've tapered off a bit in the past week, I've spent many, many hours hunting since the patch.

People keep acting like getting full credit in a full party is a total crapshoot, and that couldn't be more deceiving.

P.S. Did hunts for an hour or so yesterday. Didn't witness a single reset... but there was still plenty of grief and hostility caused by people pulling as soon as they ran up to the mob. How much worse does this have to get before people realize that early pulling/refusal to cooperate is the catalyst for all the drama?

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Originally Posted by Alukah

I didn't know tanking abilities were given to tank just so they can grief others.

The more you know.

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Maybe that is why its called a "taunt", because your taunting an enemy: Aka causing them grief so they attack you. Its roleplay wise and makes sense lore wise.

What doesn't make sense though is the mob leashing. It should go on forever following the guy. Even maybe gain a speed boost because of how angry he or she is.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

P.S. Did hunts for an hour or so yesterday. Didn't witness a single reset... but there was still plenty of grief and hostility caused by people pulling as soon as they ran up to the mob. How much worse does this have to get before people realize that early pulling/refusal to cooperate is the catalyst for all the drama?

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I can only hope the reason for the decline in resets is that all the reporting of those resetting is getting results.

If the game came out in August 27, 2013 with ToS, and Hunts came out in Patch 2.3, how can resetting a Hunt be against ToS when those rules were made last year?

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

If the game came out in August 27, 2013 with ToS, and Hunts came out in Patch 2.3, how can resetting a Hunt be against ToS when those rules were made last year?

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Resetting marks disrupts the play of those that were already there fighting it, in the ToS there is a section that says disrupting the play of others is against ToS.

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

Greetings, all!
To begin, at its most basic level, resetting hunt marks can be considered a grief tactics violation. This post will be discussing grief tactics in general as a violation of the rules, and that general discussion would apply to this particular topic, as well as any number of related topics (MPK, zone disruption, etc.). If you would like a point of reference for this rule, you can find it under the FINAL FANTASY XIV User Agreement, specifically section 3.2:

Disruption. You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other players, including the disruption of Square Enix's computers and servers.

LGM Enkrateia

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

If the game came out in August 27, 2013 with ToS, and Hunts came out in Patch 2.3, how can resetting a Hunt be against ToS when those rules were made last year?

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Because they don't update the ToS with every specific thing, every other week. It's griefing, plain and simple. And that has always been against the ToS. Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

Nobody ignores them... they can join a party just as easily as anyone else, but they choose not to. Trust me, the hunt groups would rather work cooperatively with everyone, rather than have a handful of people who are insistent on doing things their own way, social norms/etiquette be damned.

It's not against the rules to be a snowflake, but there are times they cause lots of grief to the majority of hunters.

Also, I've seen this falsely stated numerous times recently, but if you're in a full (or even mostly full) party you will ALMOST ALWAYS get full credit on A ranks... and although I've tapered off a bit in the past week, I've spent many, many hours hunting since the patch.

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You saw it here folks, he finally gets it. Do you also realize that the more people that are there, the lower that chance gets?

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Originally Posted by Thayos

People keep acting like getting full credit in a full party is a total crapshoot, and that couldn't be more deceiving.

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Crapshoot? Depends how many are there compared to the rank of the mob.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

P.S. Did hunts for an hour or so yesterday. Didn't witness a single reset... but there was still plenty of grief and hostility caused by people pulling as soon as they ran up to the mob. How much worse does this have to get before people realize that early pulling/refusal to cooperate is the catalyst for all the drama?

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Except these people AREN'T causing it. The people in the zerg are the ones getting butt bent about it, not the people claiming the mob.

i reported a couple people for resetting, gms i talked to said resetting them is "mean spirited considering how much effort some players put into getting full credit for hunting". just dont do it lol if your friends cant get to them in time sucks to be them. hunts are open world content therefor first come first serve like fates. ive missed plenty of hunts since implemented but it really doesnt bother me 1 bit but then again i realise theres always going to be more available as long as they're in the game lol

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o you also realize that the more people that are there, the lower that chance gets?

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Yes... and in all the hours I've spent hunting -- which is almost certainly WAY longer than you've spent hunting -- I've rarely ever not received full credit when there with a nearly full party. It's such a rare occurrence that it's dumb to even worry about.

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Do you also realize that the more people that are there, the lower that chance gets?

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Stop drinking the Haterade. The chance of getting full credit remains extremely high even with tons of people there.

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Crapshoot?

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Contrary to your narrative, it's not much of a crapshoot, otherwise hunts wouldn't be lucrative. And no, people wouldn't spam hunts anyway just for books. The drop rate on books is similar to the drop rate on atma.

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Except these people AREN'T causing it. The people in the zerg are the ones getting butt bent about it, not the people claiming the mob.

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So you're saying that people in hunt parties are just getting frustrated for no reason? Of course the snowflakes don't get mad, because they're accomplishing their goals of trolling.

Again, contrary to the popular narrative in this thread, most early pullers aren't soloers or light party members... they're members of hunt groups who abuse intel and regularly pull early because they enjoy the trolololololols. So of course they're happy, because their actions are causing grief to everyone else.

Of course, combine the snowflake trolls with the solo snowflakes, and subtract some resets, and what you're seeing now is hunts becoming even MORE hostile and LESS fun. Is this what everyone really wants to see? Sure sounds like it.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

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You all talk as if joining the horde is optional, but then you harass or blacklist those that don't follow the horde, it doesn't seem so optional.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

Yes... and in all the hours I've spent hunting -- which is almost certainly WAY longer than you've spent hunting -- I've rarely ever not received full credit when there with a nearly full party. It's such a rare occurrence that it's dumb to even worry about.

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Ok, what about every single other participant in ever hunt fight you've been in? Maybe ones that don't cheese the enmity system perhaps?

You can spout all you want about the way you do things. But you and your ilk are doing it effectively against the way it was meant to be. You intentionally put more stress on the servers than they can realistically handle, which also makes it harder for people to get full credit.

So, your way of doing it isn't wrong, and if it was perhaps MUCH smaller groups, not the huge zergs we have, maybe it wouldn't be so bad for you guys. But the thing is, what you guys are doing is so far out of the design intent, why should it be catered to? Why should people who just want to do it normally, get badmouthed by you?

Why not accept that how you are doing it is far from intended, and while allowed, you shouldn't be disturbing those who are doing it as it was intended. We wouldn't have this thread if that was the case.

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You all talk as if joining the horde is optional, but then you harass or blacklist those that don't follow the horde, it doesn't seem so optional.

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You make it sound as if I harass and blacklist people. I take offense to that.

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But you and your ilk are doing it effectively against the way it was meant to be.

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Woot, I have an ilk! And by "ilk," what you mean to say is "the vast majority of people who hunt, including scores of players who aren't even in hunt linkshells." You do realize that lots of people join hunt parties in the party finder, and they don't belong to big hunt groups, right? Yet they still cooperate with others and don't act like D-bags?

I'm going to assume they are part of my ilk, too, since we all work toward a common goal of helping each other succeed.

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But the thing is, what you guys are doing is so far out of the design intent, why should it be catered to?

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Is it being catered to? SE hasn't done a damn thing to improve the hunt system, other than increase HP and re-tune rewards to make them better for multiple parties.

The better question might be, "why would an average player want to cooperate with others rather than go against the grain?" And my response would be that it's more fun to be cooperative, and it's also more fun to be more successful.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

You make it sound as if I harass and blacklist people. I take offense to that.

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Anytime you reset an enemy that someone is fighting, you are harassing them.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

You make it sound as if I harass and blacklist people. I take offense to that.

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Ok, can you say the same about every single person in the zergs you've been in?

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Anytime you reset an enemy that someone is fighting, you are harassing them.

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First, I've never reset a mob.

Second, you are wrong. I don't know if you guys are just refusing to read this or what, but the vast majority of "bad" early pulls out there are done by the same handful of people who abuse intel from hunt linkshells to pull ASAP and troll. These people don't feel harassed when a mob gets reset on them... they feel disappointed, because their attempts at trolling failed. (Fortunately for those trolls though, they can actually file griefing reports, so they still have one last shot at it!)

Now, letter of the law, resetting is a disruption tactic that could result in a violation... but let's stop pretending that every reset is genuinely harassment.

Let's also stop pretending that anyone who isn't being a unique snowflake is part of a singular horde. A lot of people hunting are just random players who have partied up to work together in hunts. These parties, and hunt linkshells, are independent from each other but also collaborate to an extent to try to spread the wealth of hunts.

And, another undeniable fact... there's less drama and people have more fun when people work together.

I get what you're saying about how people have the right to do what they want -- and you're right, they do -- but doing so comes at a cost... and ultimately, that cost is a more toxic environment and damage to the community, which has largely established social norms and etiquette to make up for the poor implementation of hunts.

EDIT: Of course, had SE just capped allied seals at 500/week, then this thread probably wouldn't even be here.

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Originally Posted by Thayos

I get what you're saying about how people have the right to do what they want -- and you're right, they do -- but doing so comes at a cost... and ultimately, that cost is a more toxic environment and damage to the community, which has largely established social norms and etiquette to make up for the poor implementation of hunts.

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Except they're not the ones making it that way, the people on your side of the fence are. Your groups don't get to decide social norms on their own, especially when they're likely not even half the server. So likely not even a majority.