Healing Spells You Do Not Mind Being Removed in PvE

SCH doesn't necessarily need an AF dump. Automatically convert the remaining stacks to the Faerie Gauge when you use Aetherflow. Done.
Instead, give SCH another oGCD that doesn't use AF, so that new SCHs won't be confused by its opposite nature to ACN/SMN's ED.
The current state of SCH's ED is pathetic. Even if you use the big brain move Dissipation for 3 extra EDs its basically just 1 more Broil. Just end its misery.

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Originally Posted by TakumiHarada

SCH doesn't necessarily need an AF dump. Automatically convert the remaining stacks to the Faerie Gauge when you use Aetherflow. Done.
Instead, give SCH another oGCD that doesn't use AF, so that new SCHs won't be confused by its opposite nature to ACN/SMN's ED.
The current state of SCH's ED is pathetic. Even if you use the big brain move Dissipation for 3 extra EDs its basically just 1 more Broil. Just end its misery.

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Wait you mean you eat the fairy for energy drain and completely ignore the healing buff it gives? nah thats perfect design xD

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Originally Posted by TakumiHarada

SCH doesn't necessarily need an AF dump. Automatically convert the remaining stacks to the Faerie Gauge when you use Aetherflow. Done.
Instead, give SCH another oGCD that doesn't use AF, so that new SCHs won't be confused by its opposite nature to ACN/SMN's ED.
The current state of SCH's ED is pathetic. Even if you use the big brain move Dissipation for 3 extra EDs its basically just 1 more Broil. Just end its misery.

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That becomes pointless because the fairy Gauge is completely useless as well (look at how much time the average Gauge spends capped)

If you moved all aetherflow heals to the Gauge then implemented your suggestion (aetherflow gives 30 gauge every minute) that might work (outside of making aetherpact an absolutely disgusting trade off for what it actually offers) but then SCH has absolutely no auxiliary DPS options besides broil and dissipation remains a glorified spreadlo amplifier

Honestly if they won’t do anything on the DPS front and they don’t want to keep it as is I’m in favour of just deleting the entire aetherflow system and moving its skills onto the fairy so that the fairy becomes the healer outside of succor, does it make any lore sense, no, but is the fairy gauge as a healing situation better than aetherflow with no energy drain, 100% yes

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

I don't share that view, but I am interested in why you feel that way. Would you prefer if the healing game was shifted more towards losing dps to GCD heal?

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My problem with the overabundance of oGCD heals is that they're largely copy-pasted and don't offer nearly enough meaningful differences that makes you think about which one to use when while being available often enough to almost spam them.
Fey Blessing and Indom have slightly different functions but how often is fairy-centered heal really that important? CU and CO have slightly different functions but how often does the 10% mit from CU really make or break it vs the higher healing from CO? The nuances are there but thanks to a combination of very predictable and mostly low incoming damage, high amount of party mitigation and overabundance of free healing on all healers, you barely even notice them outside of early tier clears of higher floors and ultimates. SCH is still the healer with a fairly high amount of nuances but that doesn't say much considering how low the bar is. And, again, these differences mainly matter in early tier clears/ ultimates. Anything outside that? Whatever, just use something.

Not that I consider Medica II Cure III Cure III Cure III more exciting. This is a problem in general with FFXIV: lots of buttons that are not different enough from one another to really justify their existence vs less buttons with very noticable differences that makes you go through your whole toolkit with more than "just have something for every something the boss does" in mind.

I don't consider the amount of oGCDs the only problem but definitely part of the problem with current healer design.

So on the one hand, Cure 1, Benefic 1, Physick and Diagnosis have extremely niche uses after you gain access to Cure 2, Benefic 2, Adloquium and Eukrasia respectively.
On the other hand, the fact that they exist as "efficient" healing tools means that they can't just be cleanly upgraded like attack spells for each job, and given the fact that they haven't already been cut (on top of SGE being stuck with Diagnosis), I expect they're off the table as part of the "essential tools" each time a pass comes at cutting abilities.
If they're to maintain a position in the kit, each one requires some significant changes, or to be combined with other abilities.

For Physick and Diagnosis, I propose that they gain an effect that plays into the barrier heals available to them; after all, barriers don't stack so it would eat massive amounts of MP to keep trying to Adloquium a target.
There's a number of options here -- for instance, having them gain increased healing potency if the target already has a barrier active, which gives some flexibility when used on targets of Haimatinon/Holos or Seraphic Veil/Consolation (or even tank self-barriers). You could make it as high as a Cure II, with the balancing factor being the limited availability of your barriers.
I'd almost suggest proccing an effect that guarantees the next Adloquium or Eukrasian Diagnosis you cast is guaranteed to be critical, though that would be exclusively used outside of combat so you may as well just have that as an out-of-combat Additional Effect for barrier GCDs; makes for a nice QoL adjustment to those directly.

For Cure 1 and Benefic 1 though, I propose instead that they be combined with the existing Regen skills available to WHM and AST, rather than upgrade into the Tier 2s. My original thinking was that they could become instant heals once you obtain Tier 2 heals, but the Regens already partly cover that niche and have similar MP costs, so combining those actions saves you a button; all you would need is to give WHM's Regen a pulse of healing on activation and bump up the initial potency of Aspected Benefic.

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Originally Posted by Archwizard

So on the one hand...

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Honestly, part of the problem is the Cure 2 equivalent spells MP costs being absurd. Cure 1 could cleanly upgrade into Cure 2 if both had an MP cost of 500, for example. Medica and Medica 2 could be combined to where Medica 2 has the same base potency, has the HoT added, and if a Medica 2 HoT is ticking already on the target, a second Medica 2 would convert 50% of that HoT into direct healing and then refresh the HoT duration/apply new HoT. That would allow Medica 2 to be a straight upgrade over Medica 1 (the 100 MP difference is already negligible, so making new Medica 2 900 as a straight upgrade shouldn't be an issue) and would make spamming Medica 2 a HPS gain instead of loss. Not to mention that honestly once you get Cure 3, if you DID have a GCD aoe heal spam situation, you'd often be better served casting Medica 2 then Cure 3 until healing satisfied unless the party just can't stack. Or they could move the HoT to Cure 3 and just make Medica 2 a straight upgrade. Any of those options could free up one button on having Medica 1 which no one uses in practice in a world where Medica 2, Cure 3, Afflatus Rapture, Lilybell, and Plenary Indulgence exist unless things have gone horribly wrong AND the party can't stack for some reason. Cure 2 costing 500 MP (and Cure 1 costing 500 MP, because why not?) making Cure 2 a straight upgrade would hardly be game-breaking. Hell make them both cost 600 MP, it's not going to kill new healers in Sastasha.

Physic MIGHT be redundant if Emergency Tactics was a toggle rather than a CD. It's a short CD, but I've argued for years - well before SGE was even contemplated by the Devs (like, I was making this argument in SB) - that ET should be a toggle. At the time I was thinking more like AST Noct/Diurn stances, but seeing what the game coding can do with Eukrasia, something like that would work. I honestly think something more like Cleric Stance, but just that converts shields into direct heals. The argument here isn't as smooth as Cure 1/2 since Adlo's strength is its shield, which IS really powerful, so having a flat upgrade or reducing the Adlo MP cost are likely not great options. But though the use case is rare, Physic (and Cure 1/etc) are also not entirely useless. Just MOSTLY useless.

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They're cheap ways to proc Divine Veil (in cases you don't want to spend literally anything else on doing so), but they also have very fast cast times. I've saved people from death before by casting a Cure 1 instead of a Cure 2 when I had no instants up. Granted, this tends to be a bigger deal at lower level synced content, but it's not one that doesn't exist at all. And while converting Cure 2 to 500/600MP with a 1.5 sec cast time would probably not be a problem, doing so with Adlo might be. I'm honestly not sure the solution for SCH other than leaving it how it is. But as I said before, many people find SCH the most interesting and best implemented healer in the game precisely because of all this stuff.

I haven't played AST enough to be sure, but I feel Benefic 1/2 probably has a similar argument to Cure 1/2. I feel like both of these abilities should just be upgrades at this point. Like how Maim and Mend and Enhanced Healing Magic traits boost potencies, just have that be where they get an upgrade from and call it a day.

SGE doesn't really have this problem since they still need that keybind for Eukrasia Diagnosis anyway, meaning there's no real reason to remove Diagnosis. In effect, they already have a Cure1/2, Benefic1/2, "if Emergency Tactics was a toggle" in the form of Eukrasia, so it doesn't really serve anything to remove it. Especially when SGE has some other abilities that it makes more sense to remove, like Pepsis. Pepsis would make a lot more sense on SGE if they didn't have non-Eukrasian versions of Prognosis and Diagnosis. SCH needs Emergency Tactics because it doesn't have a non-shield version of Succor. The use-case for Pepsis is generally using a Eukrasian Prognosis, Pepsis, Eukrasian Prognosis for big healing (when GCD healing is needed) without wasting/overwriting the shields. But SGE can already do this by casting Eukrasian Prognosis, Prognosis-spam until shields are consumed. So this makes Pepsis kind of redundant. Eu Prog + Prog is 400 potency of healing + 320 potency of shielding vs Eu Prog Pepsis which is 450 potency of healing. In theory some of the shield can be consumed and you still get the full effect, which is nice, but if a raidwide completely consumes the shield on a lower defense player, then Pepsis completely wiffs and you'd still be better hardcasting that second Prognosis or even Eu-Prognosis anyway.

It's just a skill with a very narrow - real, but VERY narrow - use case. Sure it has a short 30 sec CD, but you shouldn't be using GCD heals that much anyway, meaning you shouldn't be using it much anyway, either. And at that point, literally any other of SGE's healing tools would be more worth using - possibly even Eu Prog spam - anyway.

I have considered Cure 1 upgrading to Regen before. I'm not sure if I like or dislike the idea, honestly. I think the issue is that Regen's use case is very different than Cure 1 and Cure 2s, which could lead to some weird muscle memory issues and confusion for newer players that a Cure 1 to Cure 2 straight upgrade would avoid.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

In exchange SGE has zero optimisations and is boring as hell to play, at least ED gives SCH players something to play around with

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we have phelgma and toxicon..so that does give something for sages to play around with lol. Sch is the most boring healer and is the only healer that is trash at big pulls. I can handle big pulls no problem with ast/whm or even sage , anytime i try big pull with sch its just a stress wipe mess , pre casting is boring and unfun i love instant things. least even spamming E diag can work better to keep tank up (well dark night) as really I dont need to press no heals on warrior and maybe only 1 to 2 heals on a pld/gnb. sage is actually awarded more for their ogc using compare to sch . sch has poor ways for mp regen, aether flow every 60 seconds or luci? mean while 5 of sages heals is giving 700mp back, which makes me press lucid dreaming very very less compared to the whm /sch(ast already is busted for always having near infinite mp so I cant count them in) and kerachole makes sacred soil a JOKE , kera itself is so busted that it with taro/druo is all or ixo is all it needs to handle any needing heals. meaning while too lastly sch with their joke pixie pets that locks sch out of their kit? who finds a job entertaining when your punished for using your pet and get lock out of most of your skills.

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Originally Posted by Zolvolt

Energy drain on sch.

So tired of getting players that don't know how to use their other aetherflow abilities because of fflogs.
Sage actually does aetherflow correctly with no dps dump ability and sage players are more often better than sch players this tier.

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Facts and maybe its just my server but i tend to see lots more sages than any sch, you even see clunky whm more than sch. if sage is as so bad or hated but still played alot... well Idk what to say. Most the hate honestly are these sch players its just like the treatment with the migi/shield vs thing of noct vs sch. the poor sages are getting abused. Idk if how people meld their gear or what but single or aoe wise I give real good meaty shields on my sage. Only thing I been wanting to see a change is the pepsi/soteria/kraisis else sage is good and the buff to holos made it even more better with migi/shielding.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

we have phelgma and toxicon..so that does give something for sages to play around with lol. Sch is the most boring healer and is the only healer that is trash at big pulls. I can handle big pulls no problem with ast/whm or even sage , anytime i try big pull with sch its just a stress wipe mess , pre casting is boring and unfun i love instant things. least even spamming E diag can work better to keep tank up (well dark night) as really I dont need to press no heals on warrior and maybe only 1 to 2 heals on a pld/gnb. sage is actually awarded more for their ogc using compare to sch . sch has poor ways for mp regen, aether flow every 60 seconds or luci? mean while 5 of sages heals is giving 700mp back, which makes me press lucid dreaming very very less compared to the whm /sch(ast already is busted for always having near infinite mp so I cant count them in) and kerachole makes sacred soil a JOKE , kera itself is so busted that it with taro/druo is all or ixo is all it needs to handle any needing heals. meaning while too lastly sch with their joke pixie pets that locks sch out of their kit? who finds a job entertaining when your punished for using your pet and get lock out of most of your skills.

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If you think SCH is trash at big pulls that may be more of a you issue than a SCH issue because SCH does not struggle at all with large pulls, and toxicon/phlegma barely count as optimisation tools, SGE’s skill ceiling basically amounts to “ABC”

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

we have phelgma and toxicon... so ok then sch is the most boring healer and is the only healer that is trash at big pulls. I can handle big pulls no problem with ast/whm or even sage , anytime i try big pull with sch its just a stress wipe mess , pre casting is boring and unfun i love instant things. least even spamming E diag can work better to keep pressure. sage is actually awarded more for their ogc using compare to sch . sch has poor ways for mp regen, aether flow every 60 seconds or luci? mean while 5 of sages heals is giving 700mp back and kerachole makes sacred soil a JOKE , kera itself is so busted that it with taro/druo is all or ixo is all it needs to handle any needing heals. meaning while too lastly sch with their joke pixie pets that locks sch out of their kit? who finds a job entertaining when your punished for using your pet and get lock out of most of your skills.

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Strange of you say this because AST is quite literally the weakest of 4 when it comes to dungeon runs. SCH is just right behind SGE (the strongest) when it comes to that. I’m not sure how is it even possible to get a ‘wipe mess’ as one unless there are combinations of poor mistakes made across all members.

Hard disagree with E.Diagnosis spam vs Adlo spam because in that specific situation SCH has the edge due to their fairy casting their Embrace nonstop whereas SGE Kardion procs stops the moment you stop using any damage spells.

There’s almost no difference in handling pulls between SGE vs SCH. One can use their clone oGCDs in identical fashion & it’ll also get the job done adequately. One use Kera + Tauro on SGE? Then SCH will answer with Soil + Excog.

The only reason SGE has the edge over SCH in dungeons just slightly is thanks to their lossless Phlegma II & Addersgall heals that they can hand over like candies while SCH has no Phlegma equivalent & has pay for 100p loss for using AF stacks (most definitely Soil) which… during big pulls, that loss is extremely negligible.

And there’s a way to use Dissipation in dungeon without getting punished: right before current (big) pull ends. Fairy will come back up by the time the tank finishes pulling the next big pull, giving the SCH 6 AF stacks in their reserve should they need it. I find abusing this is pretty entertaining & possibly one of the few leftover tricks I can still do to make my dungeon healing gameplay just slightly more interesting. This little detail rewards the SCH for paying modicum attention by giving them bigger prepull Adlo & whooping 6 AF stacks for that next big pull. This is something SGE cannot replicate as their addersgall are passive.

EDIT: Adding my own anecdotal observation, I should also add that I did see a lot more SGE than SCH on my dailies/weeklies. It’s not a good metric to judge but if I have to make a wild guess, that just shows how most prefer the “simpler, less clunky but weaker”-SGE than “the stronger but more effort required”-SCH. This isn’t really true for earlier weeks of later savage floors simply because people recognize SCH does have that edge over SGE—it matters to them that early. But as time passes by, slowly the number of SGEs clearing the tier will grow closer to SCH’s numbers.