It's Time To Wake up

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Originally Posted by Fendred

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You can argue that because their entire role is only 1 aspect (I.E. dealing damage) and tanks/healers have many aspects to deal with (Soloing, Party, Situational, Damage) that the complication of the multi-varied rotations makes it a bit more difficult for them to be optimal. Damage Dealers only need to know the optimal rotation for their job and that is pretty much it. The complication of Damage Dealers, of course, is how to use your long string of abilities to maximum effectiveness. Once you have it down, though, you know it and it doesn't really change by situation. Maybe once or twice but not too much. In my view, monk is the most complicated of the DDs due to the fact of juggling the Greased Lightning mechanic along with the optimal rotation.

I can see your point, though. :) In terms of rotation, you CAN argue they have less to do via pure rotation but more to do in terms of mechanics. Tanks have to be wary of when tank busters come in, where the mob is facing so the party don't get screwed as a result, position the mob optimally so DD's can be optimal. Healers have to be wary about debuffs, DDs not being able to dodge and thus expending more of their resource (MP) to save them, creating a whole new slew of problems.

Also, intellectual terminology can stand on its own. You don't have to respect me but you can't argue against it purely because of the morality of the peoeple who use it. And you don't know my morality so you're being prejudiced against me.

@DreameR7g

You aren't here to argue for the intellectual well being of anyone. An argument where you fail to garner the respect of the other person can never be considered an intellectual argument. You defended a person who chose to belittle someone else. Also, referring to the fact that something has been discussed ad nauseam elsewhere on the forum isn't an argument ad populum.

Also, no, you are wrong. If the person only has to use half or two thirds of his action bar for one thing and only half or two thirds for another, that is not as complicated as having to use the entire thing for every single encounter. The increase in complexity is not linearly associated with the number of buttons, as there are various ways abilities combo into other abilities or require the debuffs of other abilities to be maximized. A tank doesn't have to think two or three combo rotations down the road before using some high damage cooldown or finishing move. A ninja, on the other hand, does in some instances.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

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Respect has no bearing on it being intellectual. It does have a bearing on if its an argument or debate. I don't need your respect to be logically correct. Also, I have no problem with you being against someone who chose to belittle another. You simply used a flawed argument to make your case and I pointed that out.

Argument ad populum actually means you tried to leverage the popularity of a viewpoint as a means to say you're right. Simply because "many people of the forums" agreed with it. That's flawed on so many levels.

Edit: Correct. It isn't as complicated unless you harness the full thing, which raiders actually demand players do in order to become excellent at their job. Hence, Tanks/Healers do have it more complicated in the long run. And then you have to equate mechanics into the equation to get the full feel of their role.

I agree with the skill bloat. I mean seriously, why does BLM need 4 ice and 3 fire spells that all do the same?

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Originally Posted by Fendred

@DreameR7g

You aren't here to argue for the intellectual well being of anyone. An argument where you fail to garner the respect of the other person can never be considered an intellectual argument. You defended a person who chose to belittle someone else. Also, referring to the fact that something has been discussed ad nauseam elsewhere on the forum isn't an argument ad populum.

Also, no, you are wrong. If the person only has to use half or two thirds of his action bar for one thing and only half or two thirds for another, that is not as complicated as having to use the entire thing for every single encounter. The increase in complexity is not linearly associated with the number of buttons, as there are various ways abilities combo into other abilities or require the debuffs of other abilities to be maximized. A tank doesn't have to think two or three combo rotations down the road before using some high damage cooldown or finishing move. A ninja, on the other hand, does in some instances.

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Ummmm I'm pretty sure I use my entire kit on WAR, plan for tank busters, position mobs, plan out times to use DPS stances, and plan out times to pull off fell cleave combos. If you think tanks are just sitting there holding hate, either you don't play them, play one well, or don't play with tanks that play well. I literally can't think of something I don't use regularly on WAR.

I'm not saying DPS can't be difficult, but generalizing the roles by difficulty is silly. Some fights are really easy to tank, some fights are harder to tank. Same applies for all the roles.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

I agree with the skill bloat. I mean seriously, why does BLM need 4 ice and 3 fire spells that all do the same?

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They don't all do the same though. Fire 2 and Blizzard 2 are aoes. Fire 1 has a chance to make fire 3 free and instant. fire 4 does a ton of damage but only during enochian, and blizzard 4 extends enochians duration. fire 3 and blizzard 3 do a decent amount of damage, but their main purpose it to efficiently change between astral and umbral stacks for damage output and mp regen.

Go too far fixing skill bloat and you end up with WoD Arms Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

Skill bloating: I still don't see a whole lot of issues right now but considering my skillbar is almost filled with all sorts of skills (http://imgur.com/6Jy9VOw) I can see this becoming an issue in the next expansion.

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Warrior is probably the best designed class right now. I agree that Warriors have it good. I recently started leveling my BLM and mapped out what my keybinds are going to look like at 60 and...

It isn't pretty. The number of rewriting macros I will be using I think is a little excessive (rewriting the bars at different parts of the rotation). I'm not against a bit of a challenge but with the way SE has designed this game, it feels like they just want to cater to those who play their keyboards at a concert pianist level and not at all anyone who is using a console\controller. To add insult to injury, we can't even *really* customize the UI. We get to move bars around but I want something like Bartender where you can take one bar and customize it by itself so it fits a numberpad pattern. Then you can have multiple bars mapped and scroll through them per situation.

In all, I agree with the OP. Hands down it's the most beautiful MMO out there. The nuts and bolts underneath still need some real, meaningful work done though and white knighting isn't doing anyone any favors. Not SE, not the players.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

That was kind of my point xD We haven't really gotten to the point where we get new skills just for the sake of new skills. They do new and different things of use, for the most part. I liked the additions to the 3 classes I play, although I haven't finished leveling bard to 60 yet.

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Ignore the moaning Myrtels. BRD is fun at 60, no they didnt "change" it as some Sir Whinalots claim, they added to it. Changing would have meant making it that pre HW playstyle had gone byebye, WM was added for those moments you can stand still and pewpew for more ouchage. Yet still hop like a happy hoppy hopster with WM off during heavy movement phases and still pewpew.

@DreameR7g

Intellectual argument = debate. It does not refer to a fact with a truth value. You walked into a digital bar room brawl and decided to comment on how some of the angry slurs going back and forth constitute logical fallacies. Since trying to debate someone requires respect, that also means you'd want them to be at their best. No one here is at their best because we have too much heat in the room.