#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

Tanks have been proverbially useless since they removed agro management to the point they basically have no unique mechanics. The reason that’s a healer problem is because in exchange for tank mechanics they basically made them into healers with more bulk that also do more damage

The game has a wider encounter issue where they don’t take advantage of the trinity which affects all roles except pure DPS (ie support DPS suffer as well) the tank problem relative to healers is the fact that in exchange for no tank mechanics they just gave tanks healer mechanics

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

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Some levels of "free" tank healing skills are fine no one complained about aurora in shadowbringers despite it not really having any trade offs, it's more the amount on tanks that is too much rather then tanks having any non "free" healing skills, there doesn't need to be a "cost" for tank healing skills, there just needs to be less

I'll first talk about PLD/GNB where its obvious they are starting to trend towards having too much sustain, Paladin I feel like needs to just have the magic attacks not heal them, maybe let royal Authority have a small heal effect in general, Holy sheltron/intervention regen on its own isn't really that egregious, Gunbreaker Aurora should go back to 200 Potency while also lowering its excog quite a bit.
Warrior is a Prime example of just having free healing skills if you look at its toolkit literally every one of it's skills has a some form of healing I do think warrior can keep some of its "free" healing, but it needs to be toned down alot, also having aoe per hit heal effects is just unhealthy and trivializes any sort of "pull" a dungeon has.

My biggest issue is to do with Mitigation, I think people focus too much on tank healing, as a Paladin what's keeping me up in a pull is 90% my mitigation value because i have so many strong defensives if the group got enough damage I wouldn't generally need any sort of healing, trust me the healing on the holy blade combo and sheltron is nice but actually has no where near as much as a impact as my actual mitigation value has, I don't really know why people really think its a small regen that is actually the broken part that keeps me alive it's really not.

I think we need to tone down Mitigative values on tanks and boost some of the healers single target mits actually, all tanks 40%'s are really strong to the point where its actually just too strong I don't mind them having unique aspects but they need to be toned down along with our Mitigative tools giving two stacked effects, just make it a simple 15-20% + some small sustain effect and it would be fine.

All I'm saying is the argument of "lets just remove all heals from tanks and dps" isn't really a good argument onto how to make healer a actual fun role I hardly think it would even make healer fun because tanks would still have absurd mitigations... you maybe do one or two ogcd heals now... woohoo?

I also don't really play tank to be "I aggro and do boring rotation role" I actually like protecting teammates as a tank and contributing utility like veil, wings, intervention ect. I want more instances where I feel like I'm actually protecting my team.

In summary, some free healing is fine the current levels on pld/gnb need toning down and warrior is way over the limit of free healing tools, but I think mitigation also plays a stronger part in why tanks feel so survivable.

This seems like a very passionate discussion but I would like to make a worthless post to acknowledge these funny tags rofl! Love it!

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Some levels of "free" tank healing skills are fine no one complained about aurora in shadowbringers despite it not really having any trade offs, it's more the amount on tanks that is too much rather then tanks having any non "free" healing skills, there doesn't need to be a "cost" for tank healing skills, there just needs to be less

Warrior is a Prime example of just having free healing skills if you look at its toolkit literally every one of it's skills has a some form of healing I do think warrior can keep some of its "free" healing, but it needs to be toned down alot, also having aoe per hit heal effects is just unhealthy and trivializes any sort of "pull" a dungeon has.

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It simply needs to go back to pre-ShB, where it's healing came at a cost.

Equilibrium only healed in Defiance, coming with the cost of either losing damage or having to use another long cooldown to temporarily disable the damage penalty from Defiance.
Inner Beast came with both short mitigation and strong life leech, but at the cost of not being able to spend the gauge on Fell Cleave instead.
The only healing that was technically free was the 20% HP restore from Thrill of Battle, but using it for the healing meant losing it as a mitigation tool.

And if you needed really strong self-healing to survive on your own you needed to waste Inner Release on spamming Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave, a huge dps loss.
Made you think twice about using your own healing tools instead of relying on the healers in your party, but you still had access to it if absolutely necessary.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

It simply needs to go back to pre-ShB, where it's healing came at a cost.

Equilibrium only healed in Defiance, coming with the cost of either losing damage or having to use another long cooldown to temporarily disable the damage penalty from Defiance.
Inner Beast came with both short mitigation and strong life leech, but at the cost of not being able to spend the gauge on Fell Cleave instead.
The only healing that was technically free was the 20% HP restore from Thrill of Battle, but using it for the healing meant losing it as a mitigation tool.

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Thrill also expires. It’s why shields on tanks are generally well balanced. Because if they aren't used for soaking a TB they expire with no healing actually applied

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

It simply needs to go back to pre-ShB, where it's healing came at a cost.

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And if you needed really strong self-healing to survive on your own you needed to waste Inner Release on spamming Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave, a huge dps loss.
Made you think twice about using your own healing tools instead of relying on the healers in your party, but you still had access to it if absolutely necessary.

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Agreed 100%. They need to start making healing a painful DPS loss for tanks. PLD always had a good heal, but even in casual it wasn't used heavily because it was considered uncool, to stand there Infront of everyone and your healer, healing yourself not even getting your combos out. (Also your MP will dry up).

I've seen a few more people nowadays arguing against Clemency, and I can kinda get why, especially with how much tanks have been encroaching on healing, but I'd argue that it's not Clemency that's the problem, but instead the free heals from Holy Spirit and blades combo.

Clemency typically had a large DPS loss associated; eating into req time/stacks, eating MP that needed to be saved for Holy Spirit, breaking combo, etc. With EW, Holy Spirit cost less MP, so there was room to cast a Clemency or 2 without delaying the next Req window and it stopped interrupting combos. This is where it went from being risky to use and only for emergencies to something that's still emergency focused, but less punishing. Come 6.3 rework, the change in rotation made it even less punishing to use it unless you had to use it during Requiescat. Clemency still has some DPS cost nowadays, it's just not as much as it used to be. Increase the MP cost of divine spells, reduce the amount of MP we restore throughout the rotation and I think it'd be fine.

Holy Spirit and blades on the other hand, that's where it straight up wasn't necessary; Practically 2 uses of Clemency for free every minute with no loss of DPS. Add in Holy Sheltron, and that's another free Clemency every 20s or so. Remove the heals from the rest of Divine spells, and honestly it'd be fine. Holy Sheltron could also be looked at, but that's true of all of the tanks buffed 82 mitigations.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

It simply needs to go back to pre-ShB, where it's healing came at a cost.

Equilibrium only healed in Defiance, coming with the cost of either losing damage or having to use another long cooldown to temporarily disable the damage penalty from Defiance.
Inner Beast came with both short mitigation and strong life leech, but at the cost of not being able to spend the gauge on Fell Cleave instead.
The only healing that was technically free was the 20% HP restore from Thrill of Battle, but using it for the healing meant losing it as a mitigation tool.

And if you needed really strong self-healing to survive on your own you needed to waste Inner Release on spamming Inner Beast instead of Fell Cleave, a huge dps loss.
Made you think twice about using your own healing tools instead of relying on the healers in your party, but you still had access to it if absolutely necessary.

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No it doesn't need to go to pre-SHB, I really find it odd that a lot of you will insist that sustain needs this massive downside, more then the fact that tanks just simply have a bit too much especially warrior, Equilibrium is actually a good example of a cooldown that is fine on it's own (maybe take off the regen added in EW lol) but the issue is that warrior has tons and tons upon it so it becomes a self and target sustain monster.

Not to say there can't be some situationally useful sustain cooldowns such as Clemency, but at the same time can we stop trying to argue that things like aurora (which again falls under the "free heal") is a problematic cooldown on its own.

This is like me saying healers should have to cast a gcd to help tank with a mitigation if the tank doesn't wanna use mits but in reality it's fine if healers have free cooldowns, the issue is again they have too many of the same thing where your never actually playing around your cooldowns and have fallback options because you already got so much.

Funnily enough it's a team based game tanks and healers should be working together to keep the tank and party alive and funnily enough tanks don't have to encroach on healer design even when having healing cooldowns if designed properly, but in reality it's because of the abundance of healing that we have on tanks like warrior it does encroach on that design currently.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

No it doesn't need to go to pre-SHB, I really find it odd that a lot of you will insist that sustain needs this massive downside, more then the fact that tanks just simply have a bit too much especially warrior, Equilibrium is actually a good example of a cooldown that is fine on it's own (maybe take off the regen added in EW lol) but the issue is that warrior has tons and tons upon it so it becomes a self and target sustain monster.

Not to say there can't be some situationally useful sustain cooldowns such as Clemency, but at the same time can we stop trying to argue that things like aurora (which again falls under the "free heal") is a problematic cooldown on its own.

This is like me saying healers should have to cast a gcd to help tank with a mitigation if the tank doesn't wanna use mits but in reality it's fine if healers have free cooldowns, the issue is again they have too many of the same thing where your never actually playing around your cooldowns and have fallback options because you already got so much.

Funnily enough it's a team based game tanks and healers should be working together to keep the tank and party alive and funnily enough tanks don't have to encroach on healer design even when having healing cooldowns if designed properly, but in reality it's because of the abundance of healing that we have on tanks like warrior it does encroach on that design currently.

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The problem is simply this game puts out so little damage that ANY healing on the tanks is too much healing

GNB can sustain itself in a dungeon with 2 charges of aurora and HOC. If it can do that then either Aurora, HOC or both is problematic as square absolutely refuses to up the amount of damage content puts out.

No matter how absolutely cracked WAR is the weaker sustain tanks still being able to keep themselves totally healthy on their own CD’s means the limit to functionally acceptable tank healing is very very low

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Originally Posted by TheDustyOne

I've seen a few more people nowadays arguing against Clemency, and I can kinda get why, especially with how much tanks have been encroaching on healing, but I'd argue that it's not Clemency that's the problem, but instead the free heals from Holy Spirit and blades combo[...]

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Funny how this phenomena had their healer analogue: people p!ssing their pants when required to GCD heal and calls for a "Trashologification" of their healing approach so they can all freely weave/do lossless healing by sheer amount.