Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

Thanks Dervy ^^

I am actually slightly disappointed that they completely took the need to flank away entirely and that they moved the rear requirement from Impulse Drive to Chaos Thrust. That's going to take me forever to get used to =\

On the plus side though, Power Surge lines up slightly better with Jump, although a 5 second cd reduction on PS would have been nice. Life Surge is still a bit odd if your holding it for BFB, even more now with the additional 10s reduction. Not needing flank accuracy should help a bit on some fights too.

Much needed Magic Defense yay but changing the way I have to play DRG boo

EDIT: In case anyone missed it, new Relic spear is named Longinus.

Nah, you still need to flank for ring of thorns combo and for 170 pot. It's like Monk now, you flank for full damage, but if something screws up and the mob turns or some such, you're not stuck using heavy thrust all over again for the buff. Staying behind the enemy for Chaos Thrust for the extra pot will be weird, but changing the requirement frees us up to use chaos on any target from any angle.

Doesn't Impulse drive buff completely destroy the needs to use TT > FT in earlier leveling? Not that it matters much, of course.

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Originally Posted by Ceront

Nah, you still need to flank for ring of thorns combo and for 170 pot. It's like Monk now, you flank for full damage, but if something screws up and the mob turns or some such, you're not stuck using heavy thrust all over again for the buff. Staying behind the enemy for Chaos Thrust for the extra pot will be weird, but changing the requirement frees us up to use chaos on any target from any angle.

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Ah yes, misread the path notes. They took the directional boost from Impulse Drive away, which is fine. I still don't like the extra rear potency from Chaos Thrust, they should have added that to Impulse Drive instead imo that way the play style would remain unchanged. Now in order to maximize dps we should aim for a rear attack on 2 hits instead of one. I'm not saying its the end of the world though, just something I find slightly annoying.

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Originally Posted by mosaicex

Doesn't Impulse drive buff completely destroy the needs to use TT > FT in earlier leveling? Not that it matters much, of course.

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Well, spamming Impulse Drive does cost a bit more TP, so there is that, but really at that level it doesn't matter much either way. What this does mean though is that the rotation for killing low-hp mobs, such as boss adds, might be a little different.

Two words for the buffs: (1)F*CK and (2)YES

Yea misread it too. So basically Impulse Drive will always be 180. Heavy Thrust remains the same but you will still get the buff even if you fail the positional, and Full Thrust gets a flat out buff, dots get a buff and Chaos Thrust gets a buff if you do it from behind. That + the Jump buff and life surge buff.

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

Two words for the buffs: (1)F*CK and (2)YES

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*Jumps for joy* ^^

At first I thought the changes to Impulse Drive and Heavy Thrust were a bit much but comparing it to the other melee dps classes it does bring them more on par to them. Heavy Thrust now is similar to the natural buffs Monks and Ninjas gets as well as to the Monk's Dragon Kick and Ninja's Dancing Gale where even if you miss the potency boost you still get the effect of the skill which is what your really going for when using the move. Impulse Drive... I love that I no longer have to sit there trying to apply it now but still mixed on the overall buff to the damage. I probably would have been happy with a 150 potency. Right now it does seem like a bit much. That being said, the add-on to Chaos Thrust is a nice balance; still requiring a level of maintenance on the player's part to optimize their DPS.

Overall I thought they did a great job re-balancing the job. Leaning more towards the lore or characteristics of the dragoon being a hard hitting, armored dps. And more jumps? Yes please.

This is actually really interesting. If you take into account that the Piercing Debuff also increases your Bards DPS, the theoretical DPS a Dragoon can bring to a raid might actually be equal or even higher than a Monk. This is going to create huge competition between the 3 Melee DPS jobs. I like it a lot.

My goodness. This buff is huge.

I am not weeping, my tear ducts are just thrusting.

So happy with these changes, though not good enough for some people on the general discussion forum >.> *pokes with spear*

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Originally Posted by Dervy

All math calculated in i135 gear



Rotation DPS:
Pre-2.45 DPS: 520
Post-2.45 DPS: 546

We're still out DPS'd by the monk, but only by 18 DPS. Monks rotation at i135 is around 570. Remember, this does not include BFB, DFD, Life Surge etc. This is nothing more than the raw base rotation. If you include BFB/Jumps, the DPS difference will be much, much closer (10ish)

EDIT: Changed a word not to give false meaning.

Also, regarding stat-weights. The changes are in the thousandth decimal, literally makes no impact on gear.

Previously calculated:
WD 9.355
STR 1.000
DET 0.329
CRT 0.234
SS 0.194

Post-2.45
WD: 9.349
STR: 1.000
DET: 0.327
CRT: 0.233
SS: 0.198

EDIT 2: Just realised I overcalculated the DPS gain pre-2.45 by 6, oops :P

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The final DPS rotation numbers are based on how much time in what type of encounter?

If only they would have made Blood For Blood 60 sec, would have benefited every class.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

This is actually really interesting. If you take into account that the Piercing Debuff also increases your Bards DPS, the theoretical DPS a Dragoon can bring to a raid might actually be equal or even higher than a Monk. This is going to create huge competition between the 3 Melee DPS jobs. I like it a lot.

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If DRG did indeed go up 5% DPS, and they translate to fights even better than before from a dummy (their biggest downfall T10-13 IMO compared to T1-9), I'd say a DRG will easily hands down beat MNK in any fight going by contribution. These changes just make them put out their rotation with almost nothing in their way other than being a melee with potential travel time, while MNK still has to deal with GL3 drops and such. MNK will still have the INT debuff + Mantra utility so it'll be brought just like before in most content.

DRG should now indeed be the highest DPS option of the 3 melee (contribution wise), on a dummy and in real fights, which makes up for their still lacking utility.

MNK MNK as your melee comp should still be more DPS, but it'd be an insignificant boost rather than a just completely superior comp. Plus now any break in the fight, any mechanic trapping MNK, could make DRG MNK beat MNK MNK ... this is looking promising.

If I had to bet on what this means for balance within FCoB ... MNK MNK, MNK DRG, and MNK NIN will be all completely viable. DRG NIN will be possibly top DPS comp (counting TA buff to raid) but you lose the precious INT debuff. DRG MNK will probably become progression main-stay for now if I had to guess.

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Originally Posted by SupraViolet

The final DPS rotation numbers are based on how much time in what type of encounter?

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Simulated DPS. One full H IDC P TTT H TTT P IDC H TTT P TTT H. The most static environment possible with no other variables involved.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

If DRG did indeed go up 5% DPS, and they translate to fights even better than before from a dummy (their biggest downfall T10-13 IMO compared to T1-9), I'd say a DRG will easily hands down beat MNK in any fight going by contribution. These changes just make them put out their rotation with almost nothing in their way other than being a melee with potential travel time, while MNK still has to deal with GL3 drops and such. MNK will still have the INT debuff + Mantra utility so it'll be brought just like before in most content.

DRG should now indeed be the highest DPS option of the 3 melee (contribution wise), on a dummy and in real fights, which makes up for their still lacking utility.

MNK MNK as your melee comp should still be more DPS, but it'd be an insignificant boost rather than a just completely superior comp. Plus now any break in the fight, any mechanic trapping MNK, could make DRG MNK beat MNK MNK ... this is looking promising.

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If you have a good MNK in your party, DRG's should not overtake MNK's DPS if it's indeed a 5% increase... Unless it's a fight where you can't avoid loosing GL3 at times.

DRG have 1 less positional now, which is a change, but it's not like it was hard using HT before... If you're good at DRG, it shouldn't actually change anything.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

If you have a good MNK in your party, DRG's should not overtake MNK's DPS if it's indeed a 5% increase... Unless it's a fight where you can't avoid loosing GL3 at times.

DRG have 1 less positional now, which is a change, but it's not like it was hard using HT before... If you're good at DRG, it shouldn't actually change anything.

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DRG will most certainly not beat MNK pure DPS vs DPS except for the occasional fight, yes. But the buff to BRD + DRG's DPS should consistently and handily be more than a MNK's numbers.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

DRG will most certainly not beat MNK pure DPS vs DPS except for the occasional fight, yes. But the buff to BRD + DRG's DPS should consistently and handily be more than a MNK's numbers.

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Okay, I see.

Was gonna mention that in my post, that DRG's being slightly behind MNK in DPS, but giving the party slightly higher DPS than MNK does is a perfect balance IMO. That's the only thing DRG's will bring to your party, and if they didn't give you that, there would still be no real incentive to having a DRG in your party...

Very good balancing it looks like so far.

I agree. I still don't see these changes really upsetting the current heirarchy of the DPS. even with the nerf to ninjas they still get access to very strong, versatile dps tools every 20s while monks bring more utility with their damage. Yeah a monk losing GL is more punishing then compared to not being able to apply ID on paper, But the natural or static damage buff and increasing Skill Speed actually make it less punishing in most fights and monks would still out dps if they didn't mess up too many times. Dragoons on the other hand still don't have the best of both worlds in the sides of SS vs Crit/Det which is inline with their intended Burst damage nature. Now we can just burst more and more often while not killing the balance of the natural buffs from the other classes.

So still save life surge for blood for blood or pop it on jumps/ft if bfbs cool down is too long?

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Originally Posted by Noxotic

So still save life surge for blood for blood or pop it on jumps/ft if bfbs cool down is too long?

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BfB is a 30% damage boost, so if you wait for more than 30% of life surge CD you should just use it now. So if you are going to have BfB in 10-12 sec (just about to come off CD), then wait for it ; if not just use life surge on the next high potency attack.

I feel we just became god mode, I appreciate the buffs a lot, but we don't even get a penalty for missing positionals? I wanted to be the top DPS, even if they had to increase difficulty, but the class became a lot easier?

I'm not sure if I like this or not, a lot of non dragoons gonna be real mad.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

I feel we just became god mode, I appreciate the buffs a lot, but we don't even get a penalty for missing positionals? I wanted to be the top DPS, even if they had to increase difficulty, but the class became a lot easier?

I'm not sure if I like this or not, a lot of non dragoons gonna be real mad.

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Penalty is the reduced potency for HT and CT, which make sense since you don't since MNK lose their whole damage buff when they failed to land Twin Viper from side.

patch notes saying for chaos thrust potency increased by 50 from behind yet in-game text saying Flank combo potency 250. Which one is the truth lol

The real question here is when are they going to nerf their physical defense down to the other melees defense lol

It's 100% rear. It's a typo in-game. There's a HUGEE difference in using CT from the Rear compared to any other position - Almost 100 Damage difference for me at i105.

After some brief testing, life surge doesn't line up as cleanly with blood for blood as before, 20+ seconds of waiting at 341 skillspeed, so popping it on full thrust seems to make more sense.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

It's 100% rear. It's a typo in-game. There's a HUGEE difference in using CT from the Rear compared to any other position - Almost 100 Damage difference for me at i105.

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Yeah, i116 testing showed about a 120 damage difference, with rear clearly being the correct position to use Chaos Thrust from.

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Originally Posted by Dervy

It's 100% rear. It's a typo in-game. There's a HUGEE difference in using CT from the Rear compared to any other position - Almost 100 Damage difference for me at i105.

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oh thanks then man thats great to know

Yep, tested this out myself. Definitely a tool tip error.

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Originally Posted by HeavenlyArmed

Yeah, i116 testing showed about a 120 damage difference, with rear clearly being the correct position to use Chaos Thrust from.

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120 damage per 30 second, so 4 dps diffference, right ? So staying on flank 100% of the time makes you do 496 dps instead of 500 ?

Yup! At i135, it'll be around 8 DPS loss unbuffed. Essentially, there's a very small gap now between good and lazy players.

Also, I'm considering just saving Life Surge for BFB. Yeah sure, it's a DPS increase to just use it off the bat now at every Full Thrust, but nothing lines up. It doesn't even line-up with Full Thrust correctly either.

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Originally Posted by Pluvia

The real question here is when are they going to nerf their physical defense down to the other melees defense lol

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That wouldn't make any sense lol. You have armour that looks similar to heavy armour, yet it's about as durable as cloth? Yeahhh not going to happen lol. Don't like that drg's have better defenses? Play dragoon.

Quick question: how much extra dps over the long run would heavy thrust at flank be, compared to staying at rear with it?

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Originally Posted by FyrmurlFloerasksyn

That wouldn't make any sense lol. You have armour that looks similar to heavy armour, yet it's about as durable as cloth? Yeahhh not going to happen lol. Don't like that drg's have better defenses? Play dragoon.

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Dragoons have a magic defense boost so why should dragoon have higher defenses then the other melee AND take less damage when using BfB i wasn't being serious but when you answer like that. Explain to me why dragoon should have higher physical defense and the same magic defense as the other melee i could understand if their magic defense was lower by like 10 or so

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Originally Posted by FyrmurlFloerasksyn

Quick question: how much extra dps over the long run would heavy thrust at flank be, compared to staying at rear with it?

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I'm not sure what you mean, the positional requirement for Heavy Thrust has been removed now so it would do the same damage from the rear and the side as well as applying the potency buff. Did you mean Chaos Thrust?

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Originally Posted by FyrmurlFloerasksyn

Quick question: how much extra dps over the long run would heavy thrust at flank be, compared to staying at rear with it?

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That hurts more than staying flank full time, as you will lose about 210-230 potency per minute instead of 100. So, about 10 dps change at i110, 15 at i130, give or take.

Also means you can just hit from wherever you want, screw all that positionning crap, sometimes they will be on the good part, sometimes not, assuming you have a 50% chance of getting it good or not (fully random), you will lose 7.5 dps or so at i110 ?

So ignoring completely positionnals is about a 1.5% dps loss -- barely noticeable.

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Originally Posted by Iselore

I'm not sure what you mean, the positional requirement for Heavy Thrust has been removed now so it would do the same damage from the rear and the side as well as applying the potency buff. Did you mean Chaos Thrust?

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No i mean heavy thrust. I tested it and If you are at the flank and use heavy thrust, it does more damage. Use it at the rear, does less damage.

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Originally Posted by Casper

That hurts more than staying flank full time, as you will lose about 210-230 potency per minute instead of 100. So, about 10 dps change at i110, 15 at i130, give or take.

Also means you can just hit from wherever you want, screw all that positionning crap, sometimes they will be on the good part, sometimes not, assuming you have a 50% chance of getting it good or not (fully random), you will lose 7.5 dps or so at i110 ?

So ignoring completely positionnals is about a 1.5% dps loss -- barely noticeable.

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I see. Thank you for the help, much appreciated.